Constructive major suit raises - competitive bidding question after 1S response
Bud H
Your partnership is playing constructive major suit raises (direct raises
with three trumps show a fair 8 HCPs minimum.)
As dealer, you open 1H and see this auction.
1H Pass 1S DBL
2C 2D 2H Pass
?
What do you expect responder's approximate strength and heart length will be
from his 2H rebid in this competitive auction?
Bud H
Henry Lockwood
I'd play X here as penalty, given your side has shown the other three
suits. Partner has 3D available if he wants to force, or indeed 3H;
I'd suggest that 2H is a decent enough hand but one that wanted to see
what developed. Most likely a minimum 3-card raise; I'd expect him to
have five spades (assuming you play 5-card majors). This is a
competing-for-the-partscore call in my methods; he believes 2H is
making and 2D is not going far enough off (and is probably making if
they're vulnerable).
HenryL
Bud H
"Henry Lockwood" <henry.l...@cantab.net> wrote in message
news:d1481e41-57f4-4076...@j9g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
HenryL
=========================
Question 1 - do you expect responder to have exactly three hearts?
Question 2 - do you expect responder to have 5-7 HCPs (weak single raise) OR
8-10 HCPs (constructive single raise)?
Will in New Haven
I expect partner to have a hand where he would have made a single
raise before but was prevented from doing so by our agreements. It
would be criminal for hm to sell out to 2D with KTXXX - QXX - XX -
XXX, although this is not a wonderful hand with the Spade honors
probably badly placed. And what does he do with JXXXX - QXX - XX -
KXX, a better hand but still a problem now.
Having, due to our agreements, warned them of a possible bad split in
Spades, let them get in and discuss their fits, let partner help[ them
further by telling them about another suit they probably shouldn't
play, he still has to make one more attempt to buy the contract. They
will, of course, have an easy time bidding 3D if it is right.
--
Will in New Haven
henry...@yahoo.com
I expect the traditional 4 spades, 3 hearts, and limit raise strength,
just like the auction 1h 1s 1nt 2h traditionally showed.
Since responder bid 2h freely, he must have support, and if he has
support, then he must have a hand unsuited to an immediate 2h raise.
A hand like
Qxxxxx
Axx
x
xxx
might go through 1s then 2h, but that would be atypical. A more
normal hand might be
AQxxx
KJx
xx
xxx
Henrysun909
Will in New Haven
wrote:
So responder is supposed to sell out with a minimum normal single
raise? Aren't the hands that simply not strong enough for the mighty
constructive raise a great deal more common than the hands that are
strong enough, or too strong, but have bid Spades first?
If I had KQXX - QXX - XX - XXXX and I wasn't allowed to support Hearts
the first time and I wasn't strong enough to compete in Hearts the
second time, I would quit playing those methods. In fact, I won't play
them and this situation reinforces my thoughts on the matter.
henry...@yahoo.com
With a minimum normal single raise, why not raise to 2h right away?
Or, if 2h is constructive, why not 1nt then 2h?
I admit belonging to the group that raises 1h to 2h with, e.g.,
KQxxx
Qxx
xx
xxx
instead of bidding spades first. I don't want to have a problem on
the next round as neither simple preference nor jump preference shows
this hand.
Henrysun909
Bud H
I know decades ago the auction 1H-1S-1NT-2H would tend to show near
invitational (good 9 HCPs) or invitational values, but I don't think
that is the norm these days.
Bud H
Will in New Haven
Because the OP posited constructive raises.
>
> Or, if 2h is constructive, why not 1nt then 2h?
I think that would be bizzare. While 2H does not deny some Spades I
would not bypass Spades to bid 1NT.
>
> I admit belonging to the group that raises 1h to 2h with, e.g.,
>
> KQxxx
> Qxx
> xx
> xxx
>
> instead of bidding spades first. I don't want to have a problem on
> the next round as neither simple preference nor jump preference shows
> this hand.
Do you claim to be playing constructive raises when you make that
raise? It sure looks like a normal single raise to me.
Support with support.
Will in New Haven
playing normal raises, it flows logically from these premises
1: Partner has three Hearts
2: Partner didn't raise to 2H
Therefore partner has too much for a single raise.
Other possible reasons:
He has too little for a single raise? Nope, all hands too weak for a
standard single raise pass 1H. An exception might be a really
shapeless hand but then you pass 1NT.
The reason this doesn't work playing constructive raises is partner
could have too much or too little for a single raise.
He just felt like responding 1S? Nope. Support with support.
Decades ago? No, just different methods. It isn't a convention; it is
a logical outgrowth of system, an inference.
henry...@yahoo.com
My definition of a constructive raise is a hand that would accept at
least 1 game try. About the weakest hand I would ever have for a
constructive single raise is a hand like
xxx
Kxx
KJxx
xxx
because I would accept a 3d game try, assuming that 3d was long suit
or help suit and not short suit.
So yes, a hand like
KQxxx
Qxx
xx
xxx
is a constructive raise because I am accepting a 2s game try.
I have never liked the idea of defining a constructive single raise as
8-10 hcps and 3 trumps but it turns out that most 8-10 point hands
will accept at least 1 game try, and most 5-7 point hands will not
accept any game try, so it works out mostly OK.
Henrysun909
Fred.
Assuming you play forcing or semi-forcing NT where partner would bid
1NT with a weak raise, I would play it as a hand worth a constructive
raise with a doubleton heart, probably a doubleton honor if near the
bottom of the range.
Fred.
Nick France
>
> - Show quoted text -
The sequence you give has always had a history of what does it mean.
There was (and is) a group of decent players that with 4 spades and 3
hearts will avoid bidding 1S with a weak hand. For that group then,
the sequence you give shows 3 hearts and about 8-10 points (Range
Truscott gave).
For the system you have dictated, this would be 5-7 as with a
'constructive' raise they would bid 2H directly.
Neither concept appeals to me as I like to get my support in as quick
as possible.
Nick France
Will in New Haven
I play wide-ranging single raises because partner sometimes can just
bid game, which is a game-try I will accept. Most of the people I play
against who play constructive raises would be horrified by your first
example and some of them none too pleased with your second. I would
bid 2H on either of them, of course, and also on X - AXX - XXXXX -
XXXX, which my RHO opponent called a psyche while my partner wrapped
up ten tricks in game.
Bud H
What is your bid as responder after a 1H opening with these four hands
(and what is your rebid after a 1NT or 2 of a minor rebid by opener)?
1H Pass ?
KJxx weak single raise (5-7 HCPs), 4=3 in the majors
Qxx
xxxx
xx
KJxxx weak single raise (5-7 HCPs), 5=3 in the majors
Qxx
xxx
xx
AQxx constructive single raise (8-10 HCPs), 4=3 in the majors
Qxx
xxxx
xx
AQxxx constructive single raise (8-10 HCPs), 5=3 in the majors
Qxx
xxx
xx
henry...@yahoo.com
On the weak raises, 1nt then preference to 2h assuming (per the
opening post) that you are using constructive raises.
On the constructive raises, raise to 2h right away.
That's the old fashioned way of handling things.
Henrysun909
Will in New Haven
> A follow up question(s) ...
>
> What is your bid as responder after a 1H opening with these four hands
> (and what is your rebid after a 1NT or 2 of a minor rebid by opener)?
>
> 1H Pass ?
>
> KJxx weak single raise (5-7 HCPs), 4=3 in the majors
> Qxx
> xxxx
> xx
2H
>
> KJxxx weak single raise (5-7 HCPs), 5=3 in the majors
> Qxx
> xxx
> xx
2H
> AQxx constructive single raise (8-10 HCPs), 4=3 in the majors
> Qxx
> xxxx
> xx
2H, although I would bid 1S with AQXX - QJX - XXXX - XX because I
consider that too good for a wide-ranging single raise, although just
barely.
> AQxxx constructive single raise (8-10 HCPs), 5=3 in the majors
> Qxx
> xxx
> xx
I think the fifth Spade makes enough of a difference that I would bid
1S. But it doesn't take the fifth Spade alone. If the hand is closer
to a minimum constructive raise I just raise. Even the same shape with
the honors split among three suits, move one of the Spade honors to
Diamonds, isn't good enough to do anything else.
Will in New Haven
wrote:
Why bypass a Spade suit when the hand is too weak for a constructive
raise? We do NOT bypass a Spade suit when our hand is too strong for a
regular raise and I thought our methods were pretty much mirrored.
Bud H
<henry...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6ce75ab0-977d-4d2d...@e4g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
Henrysun909
==============================
Responder
KJxxx weak single raise (5-7 HCPs), 5=3 in the majors
Qxx
xxx
xx
Pass Pass 1H Pass
1NT* Pass Pass Pass *semi-forcing
OR
Pass Pass 1H Pass
1NT* 3m Pass Pass
Pass
OR
Pass Pass 1H Pass
1NT* 2NT Pass 3m
Pass Pass Pass
Won't this look silly if opener held this hand?
AQxx
AJTx
xx
xxx
Will in New Haven
> <henrysun...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Are we playing a four-card Major system with Strong Notrumps? But this
is one of the weakness of Constructive Raises. If you haven't shown
your support and the bidding gets back to you at an uncomfortable
level, you are shafted.
Bud H
>
> - Show quoted text -
My point is even if playing 5-card majors, opening 1H in 3rd seat with
AQxx AJTx xx xxx is very common. And you might even MORE be screwed
after a 3rd or 4th seat 1H or 1S opening.
Bud H
Will in New Haven
I didn't realize you were showing that as an example of a light
opening bid. It looks pretty normal to me. In any case, I don't _know_
why the players advocate bypassing a Spade suit when making a weaker-
than-constructive raise. It seems to be a good way of risking losing
both Major-suit fits against aggressive opponents.
judyorcarl
>
> - Show quoted text -
This 8-loser hand is too *strong* for a standard single raise. Why
would anyone care how many HCP a raiser has? If that hand is not a
"constructive raise," then you're back in the Roth-Stone days when the
single raise was a 1-round force.
Carl
henry...@yahoo.com
> <henrysun...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Bud,
The post you started was a hand facing a 1st seat opening bid.
If one's system changes in 3rd seat to 4-card majors, and opening 4=4
major suit hands with 1h, then it would be reasonable to change the
structure so as to allow responder to show a 5 card spade suit and
then give preference to hearts with a weaker hand. Since reponder
will already have limited himself by his 1st seat pass, there is less
pressure to define bids precisely opposite what could be a light or
short major suit opening bid.
Henrysun909
Fred.
Assuming 5-card majors and that partner would go via 1NT with a weak
raise, I would play this as a 3-card (or 2 to a top honor) limit raise
with a 4+ card spade suit. In any case, with spades and I would
expect partner to make the immediate raise to 2 or 3 with any hand
that otherwise meets the requirements.
Fred.
Bud H
"Fred." <ghrno-...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:159db435-a3dd-4612...@p35g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
Fred.
==============================================
OK, then let's assume that the 2D bid by RHO was a pass.
So now how are you bidding your hand with invitational values and a 3-card
(or 2 to a top honor) heart holding? Are you jumping to 3H if RHO passes
but bidding only 2H after RHO bids 2D and think it shows approximately the
same hand?
Remember that if RHO passed, that a 2H bid could on a small doubleton, 6
HCP, and 4=2=5=2 shape.
Bud H