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When responder has a balanced 18-count
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ais523
Feb 20, 2020, 7:18:38 PM2/20/20
to
Matchpoints, none vulnerable.
You hold QJ9.K95.KT64.AKQ (spades, hearts, diamonds, clubs).
Partner opens 1C, RHO passes (unsurprisingly). You're playing 4-card
majors, so 1C guarantees 4 clubs. You play fairly light opening bids, so
this hand isn't quite strong enough to slam force (there are plenty of
openable hands that wouldn't make 6NT opposite a hand like this).
Unfortunately, you have no systemic way to show a balanced 18-count as
responder (if 4NT were natural, it would be perfect, but of course it's
artificial in your system).
What's your plan? (If you decide to start with 1D, partner will respond
1S.)
--
ais523
You hold QJ9.K95.KT64.AKQ (spades, hearts, diamonds, clubs).
Partner opens 1C, RHO passes (unsurprisingly). You're playing 4-card
majors, so 1C guarantees 4 clubs. You play fairly light opening bids, so
this hand isn't quite strong enough to slam force (there are plenty of
openable hands that wouldn't make 6NT opposite a hand like this).
Unfortunately, you have no systemic way to show a balanced 18-count as
responder (if 4NT were natural, it would be perfect, but of course it's
artificial in your system).
What's your plan? (If you decide to start with 1D, partner will respond
1S.)
--
ais523
John Hall
Feb 21, 2020, 6:11:34 AM2/21/20
to
In message <r2n7ks$6to$1...@dont-email.me>, ais523 <ais...@nethack4.org>
writes
I don't see any alternative to 1D. A couple of questions. What strength
opening NT do we play? If it's weak and I subsequently learn that
partner is balanced, I'll know he/she has at least 15 HCP and will
definitely want to be in a slam. Also with a balanced hand with 4 clubs
and 4 spades, would partner have bid like this, or would their rebid
have been in NT?
Over 1S, I suppose I'll bid 2H, FSF. If partner bids 2S now, I'd know
they are at least 5-5 in the black suits. So long as partner has at
least three of the four missing key cards, we would then want to be in
slam. If instead they bid 3C, then they are probably 6-4. If they bid 3D
it's probably 4-1-3-5, and my best bet is probably to bid 4C (which I
hope is natural and which must be forcing). If they bid NT, then they
are either balanced or 4-3-1-5. I think I might raise 2NT to 4NT or 3NT
to 6NT.
--
John Hall
"If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come
sit next to me."
Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
writes
opening NT do we play? If it's weak and I subsequently learn that
partner is balanced, I'll know he/she has at least 15 HCP and will
definitely want to be in a slam. Also with a balanced hand with 4 clubs
and 4 spades, would partner have bid like this, or would their rebid
have been in NT?
Over 1S, I suppose I'll bid 2H, FSF. If partner bids 2S now, I'd know
they are at least 5-5 in the black suits. So long as partner has at
least three of the four missing key cards, we would then want to be in
slam. If instead they bid 3C, then they are probably 6-4. If they bid 3D
it's probably 4-1-3-5, and my best bet is probably to bid 4C (which I
hope is natural and which must be forcing). If they bid NT, then they
are either balanced or 4-3-1-5. I think I might raise 2NT to 4NT or 3NT
to 6NT.
--
John Hall
"If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come
sit next to me."
Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
ais523
Feb 21, 2020, 7:44:52 AM2/21/20
to
John Hall wrote:
> In message <r2n7ks$6to$1...@dont-email.me>, ais523 <ais...@nethack4.org>
> writes
>>Matchpoints, none vulnerable.
>>
>>You hold QJ9.K95.KT64.AKQ (spades, hearts, diamonds, clubs).
>>
>>Partner opens 1C, RHO passes (unsurprisingly).
[snip]
> In message <r2n7ks$6to$1...@dont-email.me>, ais523 <ais...@nethack4.org>
> writes
>>Matchpoints, none vulnerable.
>>
>>You hold QJ9.K95.KT64.AKQ (spades, hearts, diamonds, clubs).
>>
>>Partner opens 1C, RHO passes (unsurprisingly).
>
> I don't see any alternative to 1D. A couple of questions. What strength
> opening NT do we play? If it's weak and I subsequently learn that
> partner is balanced, I'll know he/she has at least 15 HCP and will
> definitely want to be in a slam. Also with a balanced hand with 4 clubs
> and 4 spades, would partner have bid like this, or would their rebid
> have been in NT?
12-14 1NT. Partner could bid like this with a balanced hand (although
> I don't see any alternative to 1D. A couple of questions. What strength
> opening NT do we play? If it's weak and I subsequently learn that
> partner is balanced, I'll know he/she has at least 15 HCP and will
> definitely want to be in a slam. Also with a balanced hand with 4 clubs
> and 4 spades, would partner have bid like this, or would their rebid
> have been in NT?
that would imply 15 HCP, so is fairly unlikely given our hand).
> Over 1S, I suppose I'll bid 2H, FSF. If partner bids 2S now, I'd know
> they are at least 5-5 in the black suits. So long as partner has at
> least three of the four missing key cards, we would then want to be in
> slam. If instead they bid 3C, then they are probably 6-4. If they bid 3D
> it's probably 4-1-3-5, and my best bet is probably to bid 4C (which I
> hope is natural and which must be forcing). If they bid NT, then they
> are either balanced or 4-3-1-5. I think I might raise 2NT to 4NT or 3NT
> to 6NT.
on the hand is that we play it forcing to game, so it isn't obvious what
sort of strength opener should have to jump in response to the enquiry.
The 4C re-response is interesting. I agree with you that it's obviously
forcing, but it's not clear to me whether it's a cuebid for diamonds
or agrees clubs, and even if it's natural it's also not clear to me what
opener's replies to it would mean. (Notrumps might well still be the
best place to play, but it would have to be from responder's side if
opener is short in hearts, so that the Kxx stops the suit.)
In any case, though, I think this works. On the actual hand, opener was
4=3=1=5 and would accept a quantitiative invitation, so you end up in a
making 6NT wherever you put the boundary.
For what it's worth, as responder on this hand, I think I'd want to be
in notrumps more or less regardless of opener's hand: it's very unlikely
that a ruff can be beneficial for gaining tricks, and thus the only
place it could help would be as a control, and slam feels like a dubious
place to be if we need to rely on a shortage control.
As it happens, the hands are almost cold for 7NT (the only thing that
can defeat it is a 5-0 club split, something that didn't occur at the
table), but determining that is basically impossible in most systems, I
think; most systems for precise slam investigation depend on having a
trump suit, whereas this hand doesn't want one, and the position of
the CJ is important (and yet likely impossible to ask about).
--
ais523
John Hall
Feb 21, 2020, 11:51:06 AM2/21/20
to
In message <r2ojc2$joh$1...@dont-email.me>, ais523 <ais...@nethack4.org>
writes
one round.
> One of the problems I envisaged
>on the hand is that we play it forcing to game, so it isn't obvious what
>sort of strength opener should have to jump in response to the enquiry.
I think it being forcing to game actually may simplify things here.
After 1C-1D-1S-2H, if partner bids 2S now, I can bid 3S to set the suit
without worrying that partner might pass it. Then hopefully partner will
cue bid a red Ace.
have something like AKxx AQx x JTxxx? Admittedly the opponents might not
find a diamond lead. And of course it's Matchpoints, something that I
almost forgot, so if you judge that most people are going to bid the
slam then I suppose you need to be in NT.
>
>As it happens, the hands are almost cold for 7NT (the only thing that
>can defeat it is a 5-0 club split, something that didn't occur at the
>table), but determining that is basically impossible in most systems, I
>think; most systems for precise slam investigation depend on having a
>trump suit, whereas this hand doesn't want one, and the position of
>the CJ is important (and yet likely impossible to ask about).
>
Though once you learn that partner has 5 clubs, you'd be unlucky to lose
a trick to the J.
writes
>John Hall wrote:
>
>> In message <r2n7ks$6to$1...@dont-email.me>, ais523 <ais...@nethack4.org>
>> writes
>>>Matchpoints, none vulnerable.
>>>
>>>You hold QJ9.K95.KT64.AKQ (spades, hearts, diamonds, clubs).
>>>
>>>Partner opens 1C, RHO passes (unsurprisingly).
>[snip]
>>
>> I don't see any alternative to 1D. A couple of questions. What strength
>> opening NT do we play? If it's weak and I subsequently learn that
>> partner is balanced, I'll know he/she has at least 15 HCP and will
>> definitely want to be in a slam. Also with a balanced hand with 4 clubs
>> and 4 spades, would partner have bid like this, or would their rebid
>> have been in NT?
>12-14 1NT. Partner could bid like this with a balanced hand (although
>that would imply 15 HCP, so is fairly unlikely given our hand).
>
>> Over 1S, I suppose I'll bid 2H, FSF. If partner bids 2S now, I'd know
>> they are at least 5-5 in the black suits. So long as partner has at
>> least three of the four missing key cards, we would then want to be in
>> slam. If instead they bid 3C, then they are probably 6-4. If they bid 3D
>> it's probably 4-1-3-5, and my best bet is probably to bid 4C (which I
>> hope is natural and which must be forcing). If they bid NT, then they
>> are either balanced or 4-3-1-5. I think I might raise 2NT to 4NT or 3NT
>> to 6NT.
>How forcing is your fourth-suit forcing?
I was wondering whether you played it as forcing to game or forcing for
>
>> In message <r2n7ks$6to$1...@dont-email.me>, ais523 <ais...@nethack4.org>
>> writes
>>>Matchpoints, none vulnerable.
>>>
>>>You hold QJ9.K95.KT64.AKQ (spades, hearts, diamonds, clubs).
>>>
>>>Partner opens 1C, RHO passes (unsurprisingly).
>[snip]
>>
>> I don't see any alternative to 1D. A couple of questions. What strength
>> opening NT do we play? If it's weak and I subsequently learn that
>> partner is balanced, I'll know he/she has at least 15 HCP and will
>> definitely want to be in a slam. Also with a balanced hand with 4 clubs
>> and 4 spades, would partner have bid like this, or would their rebid
>> have been in NT?
>12-14 1NT. Partner could bid like this with a balanced hand (although
>that would imply 15 HCP, so is fairly unlikely given our hand).
>
>> Over 1S, I suppose I'll bid 2H, FSF. If partner bids 2S now, I'd know
>> they are at least 5-5 in the black suits. So long as partner has at
>> least three of the four missing key cards, we would then want to be in
>> slam. If instead they bid 3C, then they are probably 6-4. If they bid 3D
>> it's probably 4-1-3-5, and my best bet is probably to bid 4C (which I
>> hope is natural and which must be forcing). If they bid NT, then they
>> are either balanced or 4-3-1-5. I think I might raise 2NT to 4NT or 3NT
>> to 6NT.
>How forcing is your fourth-suit forcing?
one round.
> One of the problems I envisaged
>on the hand is that we play it forcing to game, so it isn't obvious what
>sort of strength opener should have to jump in response to the enquiry.
After 1C-1D-1S-2H, if partner bids 2S now, I can bid 3S to set the suit
without worrying that partner might pass it. Then hopefully partner will
cue bid a red Ace.
>
>The 4C re-response is interesting. I agree with you that it's obviously
>forcing, but it's not clear to me whether it's a cuebid for diamonds
>or agrees clubs, and even if it's natural it's also not clear to me what
>opener's replies to it would mean. (Notrumps might well still be the
>best place to play, but it would have to be from responder's side if
>opener is short in hearts, so that the Kxx stops the suit.)
>
>In any case, though, I think this works. On the actual hand, opener was
>4=3=1=5 and would accept a quantitiative invitation, so you end up in a
>making 6NT wherever you put the boundary.
>
>For what it's worth, as responder on this hand, I think I'd want to be
>in notrumps more or less regardless of opener's hand: it's very unlikely
>that a ruff can be beneficial for gaining tricks, and thus the only
>place it could help would be as a control, and slam feels like a dubious
>place to be if we need to rely on a shortage control.
I'm not sure about that if partner is the first to bid NT. What if they
>The 4C re-response is interesting. I agree with you that it's obviously
>forcing, but it's not clear to me whether it's a cuebid for diamonds
>or agrees clubs, and even if it's natural it's also not clear to me what
>opener's replies to it would mean. (Notrumps might well still be the
>best place to play, but it would have to be from responder's side if
>opener is short in hearts, so that the Kxx stops the suit.)
>
>In any case, though, I think this works. On the actual hand, opener was
>4=3=1=5 and would accept a quantitiative invitation, so you end up in a
>making 6NT wherever you put the boundary.
>
>For what it's worth, as responder on this hand, I think I'd want to be
>in notrumps more or less regardless of opener's hand: it's very unlikely
>that a ruff can be beneficial for gaining tricks, and thus the only
>place it could help would be as a control, and slam feels like a dubious
>place to be if we need to rely on a shortage control.
have something like AKxx AQx x JTxxx? Admittedly the opponents might not
find a diamond lead. And of course it's Matchpoints, something that I
almost forgot, so if you judge that most people are going to bid the
slam then I suppose you need to be in NT.
>
>As it happens, the hands are almost cold for 7NT (the only thing that
>can defeat it is a 5-0 club split, something that didn't occur at the
>table), but determining that is basically impossible in most systems, I
>think; most systems for precise slam investigation depend on having a
>trump suit, whereas this hand doesn't want one, and the position of
>the CJ is important (and yet likely impossible to ask about).
>
a trick to the J.
Co Wiersma
Feb 21, 2020, 3:42:11 PM2/21/20
to
Op 21-2-2020 om 01:18 schreef ais523:
I bid 1D and after 1S is 2H my option.
Of cause we need an agreement as to the No Trump answer that shows a
minimum.
If partner does answer in a suit (3C or 3 D), then its much harder to
find a possible slam, and I guess that I just bid 3NT and hope for the best.
TBH I think that the answer of 2S best be used as "nothing"bid, and it
sure should not mean a 5-5 shape as that should open 1S.
Co Wiersma
Of cause we need an agreement as to the No Trump answer that shows a
minimum.
If partner does answer in a suit (3C or 3 D), then its much harder to
find a possible slam, and I guess that I just bid 3NT and hope for the best.
TBH I think that the answer of 2S best be used as "nothing"bid, and it
sure should not mean a 5-5 shape as that should open 1S.
Co Wiersma
judyo...@gmail.com
Feb 21, 2020, 3:59:26 PM2/21/20
to
in opening 1S with Kxxxx x xx AKQxxx ?
Carl
Co Wiersma
Feb 21, 2020, 5:02:04 PM2/21/20
to
Op 21-2-2020 om 21:59 schreef judyo...@verizon.net:
If I had
xxxxx
x
Kx
AKQxx
I probably open 1C
But that is not my system, but an exeption.
Co Wiersma
xxxxx
x
Kx
AKQxx
I probably open 1C
But that is not my system, but an exeption.
Co Wiersma
judyo...@gmail.com
Feb 21, 2020, 5:15:17 PM2/21/20
to
Co Wiersma
Feb 22, 2020, 4:41:47 PM2/22/20
to
Op 21-2-2020 om 23:15 schreef judyo...@verizon.net:
Of cause with a good six card clubs and 'only' 5 spades, I am sure to
open 1C.
open 1C.
Travis Crump
Feb 22, 2020, 6:23:00 PM2/22/20
to
ais523
Feb 22, 2020, 7:26:54 PM2/22/20
to
normally used to agree partner's major, but I wasn't aware of a common
forcing meaning over minors.
--
ais523
Travis Crump
Feb 23, 2020, 1:22:10 AM2/23/20
to
start with 1D, but you could flip those meanings if you wanted. 2N as an
invite is a bad idea playing weak NTs as opener will always have an
unbalanced hand when he declines making 2N an especially silly contract,
but it also isn't sensible to play 3m as non-forcing. This fact also
allows you to aggressively raise opener's minor, with however you play
inverted minors, with mediocre support confident that they probably have
5+ when they have a bad hand.
ttw...@att.net
Feb 25, 2020, 10:39:08 PM2/25/20
to
Easy for my stuff (lots of hands are hard though), I just bid 2NT (Baron) showing 15+HCP balanced. As it's a canape system, Opener can complete whatever more or less safely knowing I've got lots of HCP.
Fred.
Feb 27, 2020, 11:58:08 AM2/27/20
to
1m-2NT as non-forcing invitational. The SAYC pamphlet has it as
'standard" forcing 13-15 HCP. I think the former can be a slam killer when
responder bids 3NT or makes a temporizing bid with 13-15. The other downside,
as demonstrated here, is that responder doesn't know what to do with 18-19 HCP
balanced.
Fred.
kingfish
Jan 12, 2021, 6:44:59 AM1/12/21
to
My style against a minor opening is that 2NT shows 13-15 balanced, and 3NT shows 16-18 balanced.
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