Diff. between convenient minor and short club
dlo_olb
Would anyone tell me the differences between
convenient minor and short club? or are they
*exactly* the same thing?
Many Thanks!
Sid
dlo_olb <dlo...@ctimail3.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.123202d81...@news.netvigator.com...
"Short Club" is when it can be a doubleton, and the 1D is always a 4-carder
min.
Thus, you would open 1C even with AQxx, KJxx, Axx, xx.
"Convenient Minor" - You would open 1D with
x, AQxx, KJxx, Axxx to facilitate a 2C rebid is partner bids 1S.
Regards,
dlo_olb
> > Would anyone tell me the differences between
> > convenient minor and short club? or are they
> > *exactly* the same thing?
> >
> > Many Thanks!
>
> "Short Club" is when it can be a doubleton, and the 1D is always a 4-carder
> min.
> Thus, you would open 1C even with AQxx, KJxx, Axx, xx.
Understood. it implies that if i play conv. minor, i should bid 1D with
the above hand, and that always promises 3+ cards in the bid minor
suit...?
> "Convenient Minor" - You would open 1D with
> x, AQxx, KJxx, Axxx to facilitate a 2C rebid is partner bids 1S.
Does that mean to always bid diamond if both minor are of equal length
(regardless of HCP)?
I saw in some CC that mentions 'better of the minor' in the minor opening
section, is it equivalent to 'convention minor'?
Moreover, i've heard that there is a 1D response bid in short club conv.
to indicate a 'bust', is it specific to it?
And which one is better in your opinion?
Last question :)
i holds:
KQx QJxx Qxxx Kxx
i know of a minor opening convention (from a sayc guide), that suggest
bidding 1D (promise 4+ cards) otherwise bid 1C...is it a good practice?
what expert usually bid these days with above hand??
Sorry for *too* many questions ;)
Thanks again!
Sid
> Thanks for your reply.
>
> > > Would anyone tell me the differences between
> > > convenient minor and short club? or are they
> > > *exactly* the same thing?
> > >
> > > Many Thanks!
> >
> > "Short Club" is when it can be a doubleton, and the 1D is always a
4-carder
> > min.
> > Thus, you would open 1C even with AQxx, KJxx, Axx, xx.
>
> Understood. it implies that if i play conv. minor, i should bid 1D with
> the above hand, and that always promises 3+ cards in the bid minor
> suit...?
Yep. Right on.
> > "Convenient Minor" - You would open 1D with
> > x, AQxx, KJxx, Axxx to facilitate a 2C rebid is partner bids 1S.
>
> Does that mean to always bid diamond if both minor are of equal length
> (regardless of HCP)?
No. If you have, say, AQxx, x, KJxx, Axxx you would open 1C here. There
are
no rebid complications that can arise, as you have a convenient 1S
rebid. Reverse the majors, and you open 1D, then rebid 2C over 1S.
The Law of Preparedness.
1C opener finds ALL possible fits - spades, diamonds or clubs.
> I saw in some CC that mentions 'better of the minor' in the minor opening
> section, is it equivalent to 'convention minor'?
More for lead-directing purposes. If you opened 1C with
Axx, Jx, AQJx, 10xxx and partner is on lead against 4H with Kx C,
he will place the king on the table before the final pass. Uh oh.
Open 1D, and rebid 1NT over 1H response by partner. Convenient.
> Moreover, i've heard that there is a 1D response bid in short club conv.
> to indicate a 'bust', is it specific to it?
Some play it - yes - they are scared of going -3 in 1C, vul,
and they bid a "convenient" 1D, negative.
What they forget is that opps surely (90%) have a game on in this
instance!! I personally do not like it. Pass with a bust, initially.
> And which one is better in your opinion?
I prefer "short club". That way I KNOW when partner opens 1D,
he has 4. Imagine you have Jx, Axx, QJxx, 10xxx, and partner's
1D opener gets doubled. Neat - 3D. With confidence.
If partner's 1D is the "convenient" minor, what do you do?
> Last question :)
>
> i holds:
> KQx QJxx Qxxx Kxx
> i know of a minor opening convention (from a sayc guide), that suggest
> bidding 1D (promise 4+ cards) otherwise bid 1C...is it a good practice?
> what expert usually bid these days with above hand??
You have 14 cards. :--)) With KQx, QJxx, Qxxx, Kx open 1D, and
rebid NT, unless partner bids hearts.
With KQx, KQJx, 9xxx, Kx open 1D also.
>
> Sorry for *too* many questions ;)
Why are you sorry? They seem reasonable. :))
> Thanks again!
Regards,
m.j.hargreaves
it is my experience that the majority of experts would open 1D with
4-1-4-4. The argument for 1C is that it ensures that a diamond fit will
be found if it exists. It is an open question whether that is correct
since a popular expert style is to bypass diamonds in response to 1C if
responder holds less than game force values and a 4 card major.
In any event, the real problem with opening 1C arises when the opponents
are inconsiderate enough to overcall your 4 card major. Partner negative
doubles. Your bid!
True, with Sid's example, you will probably survive 1NT with AQxx x KJxx
Axxx, altho your hand will be a disappointment for partner who then bids
2H with xx KJxxx Qxx Jxx, as he may well choose. Note that after this
auction you will have lost a diamond fit when partner has 2-4-4-3 shape.
Furthermore, you may not always have such great stoppers. What do you
bid with xxxx x AKJx Axxx after 1C - (1S) - dble - P - ? Wouldn't life
be easier if you had opened 1D? Now you can rebid 2C without any
embarrassment.
Sid wrote:
> [snipped]
> > > "Convenient Minor" - You would open 1D with
> > > x, AQxx, KJxx, Axxx to facilitate a 2C rebid is partner bids 1S.
> >
> > Does that mean to always bid diamond if both minor are of equal length
> > (regardless of HCP)?
>
> No. If you have, say, AQxx, x, KJxx, Axxx you would open 1C here. There
> are
> no rebid complications that can arise, as you have a convenient 1S
> rebid. Reverse the majors, and you open 1D, then rebid 2C over 1S.
>
> The Law of Preparedness.
>
> 1C opener finds ALL possible fits - spades, diamonds or clubs.
> [snipped]
>
> Regards,
>
> Sid
> http://fly.to/elsid
Don Varvel
wrote:
>Thanks for your reply.
>
>> > Would anyone tell me the differences between
>> > convenient minor and short club? or are they
>> > *exactly* the same thing?
>> >
>> > Many Thanks!
>>
>> "Short Club" is when it can be a doubleton, and the 1D is always a 4-carder
>> min.
>> Thus, you would open 1C even with AQxx, KJxx, Axx, xx.
"Short club" can mean all sorts of things. It isn't well
defined. There's a style going back to auction bridge where
unbalanced hands in the range of 16 or so points up to just
less than a 2C opening are opened 1C. It is possible to
build a good system around that idea, as I believe I have
done (but 19+ in my case), but it is not a simple way to
play.
By the way, I have no problem with opening the 14-pointer
above 1C. I *do* have a problem with AQxx KJxx Axx Ax.
Now if partner has say xxxx Kxxx Jxxx x and passes, it's
likely neither opponent is either strong or short in clubs,
and you're likely to be passed out in a terrible contract
when the opponents can't make much of anything.
>Understood. it implies that if i play conv. minor, i should bid 1D with
>the above hand, and that always promises 3+ cards in the bid minor
>suit...?
Assuming "convenient minor" is the same as what is usually
called "better minor", typically as part of a 5-card majors
system, yes.
>> "Convenient Minor" - You would open 1D with
>> x, AQxx, KJxx, Axxx to facilitate a 2C rebid is partner bids 1S.
>
>Does that mean to always bid diamond if both minor are of equal length
>(regardless of HCP)?
Possibly, possibly not. Opinions differ on this sort of
hand. Another writer gives something like AQxx x KJxx Axxx
as a hand that should be opened 1C because you are prepared
for any response. You are *not* prepared for 1C (1S) X
(negative), though. (Yes, I know some are comfortable
rebidding 1NT or 2D with that hand.)
>I saw in some CC that mentions 'better of the minor' in the minor opening
>section, is it equivalent to 'convention minor'?
I know what "better minor" means, at least among good
players. I don't know what "better of the minor" or
"convention minor" means.
>Moreover, i've heard that there is a 1D response bid in short club conv.
>to indicate a 'bust', is it specific to it?
Umm. Yes, it's possible to use 1D as a negative response
to a more-or-less natural 1C opening. It is not common.
Unless you're willing to go to a *lot* of work building a
sensible system, it's probably not a good idea.
>And which one is better in your opinion?
In *my* opinion? Better for what?
My distinctly minority opinion is that 1C should show a
variety of hands, including all hands above a particular
cutoff (my cutoff occurs between 18 and 19 points), it
should be forcing, and 1D should be a negative. I do
*not* believe this is an easy way to play bridge and
would not recommend it to beginners.
As a part of an ordinary 5-card-majors system, I suggest
1C not forcing, and that you open 1D with three only on
hands outside your 1NT opening range that are specifically
4=4=3=2. This is what's usually called "better minor".
>Last question :)
>
>i holds:
>KQx QJxx Qxxx Kxx
>i know of a minor opening convention (from a sayc guide), that suggest
>bidding 1D (promise 4+ cards) otherwise bid 1C...is it a good practice?
>what expert usually bid these days with above hand??
Assuming KQx QJx Qxxx Kxx, open 1D. There are a *few*
experts who open this sort of hand 1C by agreement
(Martel-Stansby used to), but I would go so far as to
guess that it will *never* be standard.
That is, there are many good ways to play bridge. One
has become widespread, at least in the United States
and on OKbridge, and it's possible that it's actually
better than the alternatives. What is clear, though,
is that it is what your partner will expect when you
agree on "yellow card", so it pays to know the method
whether you think it's objectively best or not.
-- Don Varvel
Sid
1. With Diamonds AQJx, and Clubs 10xxx, I would always open 1D;
2. After partner makes a negative double in the sequence
1C - 1S - X - P
?
You can 2D - this is NOT a reverse.
:--))
Sid.
m.j.hargreaves <m.harg...@home.com> wrote in message
news:37C8374D...@home.com...
> While I know that a sizeable minority of players would agree with Sid,
> it is my experience that the majority of experts would open 1D with
> 4-1-4-4. The argument for 1C is that it ensures that a diamond fit will
> be found if it exists. It is an open question whether that is correct
> since a popular expert style is to bypass diamonds in response to 1C if
> responder holds less than game force values and a 4 card major.
>
> In any event, the real problem with opening 1C arises when the opponents
> are inconsiderate enough to overcall your 4 card major. Partner negative
> doubles. Your bid!
>
> True, with Sid's example, you will probably survive 1NT with AQxx x KJxx
> Axxx, altho your hand will be a disappointment for partner who then bids
> 2H with xx KJxxx Qxx Jxx, as he may well choose. Note that after this
> auction you will have lost a diamond fit when partner has 2-4-4-3 shape.
>
> Furthermore, you may not always have such great stoppers. What do you
> bid with xxxx x AKJx Axxx after 1C - (1S) - dble - P - ? Wouldn't life
> be easier if you had opened 1D? Now you can rebid 2C without any
> embarrassment.
> Sid wrote:
> > [snipped]
> > > > "Convenient Minor" - You would open 1D with
> > > > x, AQxx, KJxx, Axxx to facilitate a 2C rebid is partner bids 1S.
> > >
> > > Does that mean to always bid diamond if both minor are of equal length
> > > (regardless of HCP)?
> >
Christopher J. Monsour
Sid wrote in message <7q94l6$s06$1...@nnrp01.ops.uunet.co.za>...
>I prefer "short club". That way I KNOW when partner opens 1D,
>he has 4. Imagine you have Jx, Axx, QJxx, 10xxx, and partner's
>1D opener gets doubled. Neat - 3D. With confidence.
>If partner's 1D is the "convenient" minor, what do you do?
I don't play short club. I confess I might bid 2D with that, but because of
the major suit cards, not out of fear of jump-raising with four. The
problem with a short club is what to do after 1C-(X)- with Jx xxx QJx xxxxx.
Here, the *expected* club fit is rather longer (though not a full card
longer) than the expected diamond fit in your example, so there is even more
reason to preempt, and yet you still have to worry about being in a seven
card fit. No thanks.
Note that after 1D-1M-1NT, responder can count on opener for four diamonds,
and after 1C-1M-1NT, responder can count on opener for three clubs. The
counts are the same for you. However, what do you do after 1C-1D with 4432?
Can partner ever safely bid 6C if the auction starts 1C-1D-2NT? Can he
manage to account for your having *two* fewer clubs than really expected?
Or if you prefer to rebid 1H, how conmfortable will you feel about
1C-1D-1H-2C?
Christopher J. Monsour
Christopher J. Monsour
Don Varvel wrote in message <37c82575....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>As a part of an ordinary 5-card-majors system, I suggest
>1C not forcing, and that you open 1D with three only on
>hands outside your 1NT opening range that are specifically
>4=4=3=2. This is what's usually called "better minor".
Usually, when people tell me tehy play 'better minor', they mean they open
the minor they want led with 3433 or 4333 shape. Are they misusing the
term?
Christopher J. Monsour
John (MadDog) Probst
<el...@cheerful.com> writes>news:MPG.123202d81...@news.netvigator.com...
>> Hello all,
>>
>> Would anyone tell me the differences between
>> convenient minor and short club? or are they
>> *exactly* the same thing?
>>
>> Many Thanks!
>
>"Short Club" is when it can be a doubleton, and the 1D is always a 4-carder
>min.
>Thus, you would open 1C even with AQxx, KJxx, Axx, xx.
>
I have always failed to comprehend how a nation which can land men on
the moon thinks that the best description of a flat 19 count is to bid a
small doubleton. chs john
--
John (MadDog) Probst| /|_ FFB 3268572|+ phone & fax :181 980 4947
451 Mile End Road | / @\__.ACBL7795556|icq 10810798, OKb ChienFou
London E3 4PA | /\ __)EBU L018829|e-m jo...@probst.demon.co.uk
+44-(0)181 983 5818 |/\:\ /-- |Site www.probst.demon.co.uk
m.j.hargreaves
experts would play it as extra values. Otherwise, partner with 2-4-3-4
minimum must now bid 3C. That is uncomfortable with minimum opposite
minimum and unworkable if either player has extras (but not enough to
force). Any system that requires 3-level non-forcing preferences on
wide-range hands is unplayable in serious competition.
The essential point of opening 1D with 4144 is that there are NO
uncomfortable rebids. Yes, you will usually 'survive' if you open 1C,
but why choose a method whereby you 'usually' survive rather than one
with which you almost always survive?
With Diamonds 10xxx and Clubs AQJx I would always open 1D.
Partner rarely leads your minor anyway.
:--))
Michal
John (MadDog) Probst <jo...@probst.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:TNVdxWAi...@probst.demon.co.uk...
> I have always failed to comprehend how a nation which can land men on
> the moon thinks that the best description of a flat 19 count is to bid a
> small doubleton. chs john
I have always failed to comprehend how a nation which has a Royal Family think
it's a good idea to play WeakNT with 4-card majors (no, hang on, it makes
perfect
sense now!).
Cheers,
Michal
Chris Ryall
>I have always failed to comprehend how a nation which has a Royal Family think
>it's a good idea to play WeakNT with 4-card majors
They're just pets.
--
Chris Ryall
Sjoerd Schreuder
"John (MadDog) Probst" wrote:
>
> In article <7q825m$i9n$1...@nnrp01.ops.uunet.co.za>, Sid
> <el...@cheerful.com> writes
> >
> >dlo_olb <dlo...@ctimail3.com> wrote in message
> >news:MPG.123202d81...@news.netvigator.com...
> >> Hello all,
> >>
> >> Would anyone tell me the differences between
> >> convenient minor and short club? or are they
> >> *exactly* the same thing?
> >>
> >> Many Thanks!
> >
> >"Short Club" is when it can be a doubleton, and the 1D is always a 4-carder
> >min.
> >Thus, you would open 1C even with AQxx, KJxx, Axx, xx.
> >
> AQxx AKJx AJx xx
>
> I have always failed to comprehend how a nation which can land men on
> the moon thinks that the best description of a flat 19 count is to bid a
> small doubleton. chs john
They might decide not to lead a club against 3NT? ;-)
The best _start_ of the description of a flat 19 count might be a
small doubleton. In most cases, one will have another chance to
finish the description. I'm willing to play some hands in 1C, if it
allows me to define other sequences more clearly. Partner knows my
1C opening doesn't promise any strength in clubs, and will consider
other leads (though often I'll have 5 clubs when they bid game)
IMHO, opening bids are defined by shape and general hcp;
overcalls are defined by shape and strength of the suit.
I've no problem opening 1C on AQxx AKJx AJx xx, and I'll open
1H on AKx xxxxx QJxx A. Re-evaluating one's hand will be done
in the second or third round of bidding.
The system I like is (mostly) natural, 1C could be doubleton,
responders bypasses diamonds to bid a major if not gameforcing,
and opener bypasses spades to rebid notrump. Responder has CBS
(invitial or better) available to find (almost) exact distribution
of opener and max/min. A weak NT is usefull, as responder often
is invitial after a NT rebid (15-17). We score well and we usually
bid more minor suit slams than our opponents (and we make them too),
so the system must be reasonable (or our opponents must be very bad ;-).
Sjoerd Schreuder
Don Varvel
<sjo...@geodan.nl> wrote:
>"John (MadDog) Probst" wrote:
>> AQxx AKJx AJx xx
>>
>> I have always failed to comprehend how a nation which can land men on
>> the moon thinks that the best description of a flat 19 count is to bid a
>> small doubleton. chs john
>
>They might decide not to lead a club against 3NT? ;-)
>
>The best _start_ of the description of a flat 19 count might be a
>small doubleton. In most cases, one will have another chance to
>finish the description. I'm willing to play some hands in 1C, if it
>allows me to define other sequences more clearly. Partner knows my
>1C opening doesn't promise any strength in clubs, and will consider
>other leads (though often I'll have 5 clubs when they bid game)
Is your 1C opening forcing? If you open a nonforcing 1C with
the above hand, it may be the *finish* of the description as
well. The stronger your hand, the more likely your nonforcing
opening bid is to be passed out; and the fewer cards you have
in the suit you open, the more likely the it is to be passed
out.
Am I alone in the world for having passed out *several* of
these 1C bids for all the matchpoints? [Each time one of the
opponents started in on how "nobody" passes out 1C, and how
terribly unlucky they were to be playing against someone who
didn't know how to reopen.]
A Precision 1D may be short, but when it's passed out the
defenders have at least half the deck (15+5=20) and maybe a
lot more (11+0=11), and -100 or even -250 may not be a bad
score. When you have 19 and partner averages 2.5, though, any
minus score is a disaster.
Frankly, I'm with MadDog.
-- Don Varvel
Michal
Don Varvel <var...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:37d081a3...@nntp.ix.netcom.com...
> >> AQxx AKJx AJx xx
> Is your 1C opening forcing? If you open a nonforcing 1C with
> the above hand, it may be the *finish* of the description as
> well. (...)
Well, but if your one-bid will be passed - what's the difference if you open 1C
or 1D on that hand?
John (MadDog) Probst
<kra...@bigpond.com> writes
Don Varvel
<jo...@probst.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <Mw1A3.11010$ei1....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>, Michal
><kra...@bigpond.com> writes
>>
>>Don Varvel <var...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>>news:37d081a3...@nntp.ix.netcom.com...
>>
>>> >> AQxx AKJx AJx xx
>>
>>> Is your 1C opening forcing? If you open a nonforcing 1C with
>>> the above hand, it may be the *finish* of the description as
>>> well. (...)
>>
>>Well, but if your one-bid will be passed - what's the difference if you open 1C
>>or 1D on that hand?
>>
>about 2 tricks probably. chs john
Also, the extra card makes it a little less likely that
you'll be passed out. Everyone, including your partner,
is more likely to pass with length.
But in fact, if I weren't opening a *forcing* 1C with
this hand, with a thinking partner I'd open 1H or 1S,
even playing 5-card majors.
-- Don Varvel
David Grabiner
> Am I alone in the world for having passed out *several* of
> these 1C bids for all the matchpoints? [Each time one of the
> opponents started in on how "nobody" passes out 1C, and how
> terribly unlucky they were to be playing against someone who
> didn't know how to reopen.]
I've had a similar experience. Against weak opponents, when I play in
1C or 1D passed out, it's usually because the opponents don't know to
reopen , and I get a good score, often +70 when it is their hand.
Against good opponents, when I play in 1C or 1D passed out, it's usually
a 3-2 fit down two.
> A Precision 1D may be short, but when it's passed out the
> defenders have at least half the deck (15+5=20)
In the Precision books I have seen, I believe you pass with 0-7 HCP.
--
David Grabiner, gra...@bgnet.bgsu.edu (note new Email; math has problems)
http://www-math.bgsu.edu/~grabine
Shop at the Mobius Strip Mall: Always on the same side of the street!
Klein Glassworks, Torus Coffee and Donuts, Projective Airlines, etc.
Stephen Tu
(Aa7qb) wrote:
>In article <ybgibtbi...@vanceulen.math.lsa.umich.edu>, David Grabiner
><grab...@math.lsa.umich.edu> writes:
>
>>
>>> A Precision 1D may be short, but when it's passed out the
>>> defenders have at least half the deck (15+5=20)
>>
>>In the Precision books I have seen, I believe you pass with 0-7 HCP.
>>
>
>Yes. Responder needs about 8 points to respond. Only in Match Point Precision
>would you bid a major with less (5 to 9 hcp I believe). That is the advantage
>of limited openings. A pass tells partner (and opponents) that we probably have
>less than half the total points. Now if the opponents will only balance in my
>suit.
>
Maybe the first Precision books recommended this but it always seemed to
be a disaster when I tried passing 6/7 point hands playing Precision.
Passing over 1d with these is going to work out badly missing a lot of
major fits, or not getting to a makeable or down 1 1nt. Not bidding
also gives the opponents a ton more room to find their best spot.
Passing over the 1s opener on marginal hands has more going for it but
results weren't great there either.
--
Stephen Tu
ste...@jps.net
Aa7qb
<grab...@math.lsa.umich.edu> writes:
>
>> A Precision 1D may be short, but when it's passed out the
>> defenders have at least half the deck (15+5=20)
>
>In the Precision books I have seen, I believe you pass with 0-7 HCP.
>
Yes. Responder needs about 8 points to respond. Only in Match Point Precision
would you bid a major with less (5 to 9 hcp I believe). That is the advantage
of limited openings. A pass tells partner (and opponents) that we probably have
less than half the total points. Now if the opponents will only balance in my
suit.
Charles Gray -- Phoenix, AZ (really Glendale)
aa...@aol.com