What to do with this 5-5 3 count?
Jordan
You are playing a club game with a partner who is the best player in the
room by far but whose bids are not always straight out of the textbook.
Red on white at matchpoints, assume for purposes of question 1 that the
auction has gone as follows:
West North East South
-- P P 1D
X 1S P P
X ?
1.) What's your call?
For question 2, assume you are forced to pass in 1.) even if that is not
your choice.
West North East South
-- P P 1D
X 1S P P
X P 2C 2D
P ?
2.) What's your call?
Thanks!
Co
"Jordan" <jc...@earthlink.net> schreef in bericht
news:HOednXfHpNTbb2vX...@earthlink.com...
I would have passed in the first place
and on both your questions , I vote pass also
Co Wiersma
Kieran Dyke
"Jordan" <jc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:HOednXfHpNTbb2vX...@earthlink.com...
> You, North, hold KTxxx / Txxxx / xx / x.
> You are playing a club game with a partner who is the best player in the
> room by far but whose bids are not always straight out of the textbook.
> Red on white at matchpoints, assume for purposes of question 1 that the
> auction has gone as follows:
>
> West North East South
>
> -- P P 1D
> X 1S P P
> X ?
>
> 1.) What's your call?
Pass. At this vulnerability, partner should have three spades and rubbish.
>
> For question 2, assume you are forced to pass in 1.) even if that is not
> your choice.
>
> West North East South
>
> -- P P 1D
> X 1S P P
> X P 2C 2D
> P ?
>
> 2.) What's your call?
2S. He has three spades, remember.
Tiggrr
>
> Thanks!
Stu G
> You, North, hold KTxxx / Txxxx / xx / x.
> You are playing a club game with a partner who is the best player in the
> room by far but whose bids are not always straight out of the textbook.
> Red on white at matchpoints, assume for purposes of question 1 that the
> auction has gone as follows:
>
> West North East South
>
> -- P P 1D
> X 1S P P
> X ?
>
> 1.) What's your call?
Pass. Pard should have 3 spades for his Pass, so East will bid. BTW
I agree with your 1S,
>
> For question 2, assume you are forced to pass in 1.) even if that is not
> your choice.
>
> West North East South
>
> -- P P 1D
> X 1S P P
> X P 2C 2D
> P ?
>
> 2.) What's your call?
2S. If partner is even a decent player he would not have passed 1S
with only 2 (except maybe AQ and even then it's questionable). He
rates to have 5 diamonds and is giving you a choice between diamonds
and spades in case you only have 4 spades. A possible shape for
partner is 3-1-5-4; then give West a text book 4-4-1-4, which means
East would be 1-3-5-4 and 2D might be nasty. Besides, it's matchpts.
so go for the better partial. And they might just take the push to
3C. Too bad you didn't state how good or bad the opps are.
-Stu Goodgold
San Jose, CA
>
> Thanks!
Eric Leong
If you have a death wish than bid. I would pass both times.
Obviously, the opponents have about 25 hcp out against us.
Being plus or down one undoubled should be a good board.
Bidding again is just giving RHO another chance to wake up and give us
a score or -200 or less.
Eric Leong
judyorcarl
> "Jordan" <jc...@earthlink.net> schreef in berichtnews:HOednXfHpNTbb2vX...@earthlink.com...
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes. The 1S call guarantees you will lose any heart fit you might
have.
A bid over the double (like any voluntary non-reopening bid in
competition) is supposed to say you're not guessing.
Carl
Will in New Haven
> "Jordan" <jc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
> news:HOednXfHpNTbb2vX...@earthlink.com...
>
> > You, North, hold KTxxx / Txxxx / xx / x.
> > You are playing a club game with a partner who is the best player in the
> > room by far but whose bids are not always straight out of the textbook.
> > Red on white at matchpoints, assume for purposes of question 1 that the
> > auction has gone as follows:
>
> > West North East South
>
> > -- P P 1D
> > X 1S P P
> > X ?
>
> > 1.) What's your call?
>
> Pass. At this vulnerability, partner should have three spades and rubbish.
Why? If you open QX - XXX - KQJX - KXXX, as many would in third seat,
you think you should _bid_ over partner's 1S call. Even if partner's
bid was not over a double, where he would often have five, how can
partner you don't have a full opening bid?
>
>
>
> > For question 2, assume you are forced to pass in 1.) even if that is not
> > your choice.
>
> > West North East South
>
> > -- P P 1D
> > X 1S P P
> > X P 2C 2D
> > P ?
>
> > 2.) What's your call?
>
> 2S. He has three spades, remember.
I don't remember it because I don't _believe_ it. A light opening bid
isn't supposed to have a singleton or void so he can pass any
response. There is no reason to believe that he must have _three_ of
the suit I happened to bid. In this case, I wonder why he didn't open
a Weak 2D. I bid 2H in case it was because he had four Hearts. If I
have to play a 5-2 or 5-3 Spade fit, so be it.
--
Will in New Haven
Will in New Haven
So we open light and rebid over partner's response and partner is
supposed to figure it out. By osmosis? And you put shapes with a
singleton in his hand. When you open light you are supposed to pass
any response.
When partner bids 2D, we know he wasn't opening hopelessly light and
may not have had a Weak 2D available but I still see no case for
counting on him for three Spades.
Fred.
I agree with your 1S the first time. But now, partner knows where the
diamond length is likely to be and has rebid diamonds anyhow. Respect
partner and pass rather than guessing at another spot. If 2D was a
poor call, partner will have a valuable learning experience.
Fred.
Kieran Dyke
"Will in New Haven" <bill....@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote in message
news:e267bac5-c7f4-4beb...@a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 8, 2:36 pm, "Kieran Dyke" <tig...@idx.com.au> wrote:
> "Jordan" <jc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
> news:HOednXfHpNTbb2vX...@earthlink.com...
>
> > You, North, hold KTxxx / Txxxx / xx / x.
> > You are playing a club game with a partner who is the best player in the
> > room by far but whose bids are not always straight out of the textbook.
> > Red on white at matchpoints, assume for purposes of question 1 that the
> > auction has gone as follows:
>
> > West North East South
>
> > -- P P 1D
> > X 1S P P
> > X ?
>
> > 1.) What's your call?
>
> Pass. At this vulnerability, partner should have three spades and rubbish.
Why? If you open QX - XXX - KQJX - KXXX, as many would in third seat,
you think you should _bid_ over partner's 1S call. Even if partner's
bid was not over a double, where he would often have five, how can
partner you don't have a full opening bid?
Vul v not, leaving partner hanging in his 4-2 fit isn't a growth industry.
Non-vul, he might just have balanced five-count with leadworthy diamonds.
>
>
>
> > For question 2, assume you are forced to pass in 1.) even if that is not
> > your choice.
>
> > West North East South
>
> > -- P P 1D
> > X 1S P P
> > X P 2C 2D
> > P ?
>
> > 2.) What's your call?
>
> 2S. He has three spades, remember.
I don't remember it because I don't _believe_ it. A light opening bid
isn't supposed to have a singleton or void so he can pass any
response. There is no reason to believe that he must have _three_ of
the suit I happened to bid. In this case, I wonder why he didn't open
a Weak 2D. I bid 2H in case it was because he had four Hearts. If I
have to play a 5-2 or 5-3 Spade fit, so be it.
Come on, now he MUST have three spades, since we know that he passed 1S with
a hand which was perfectly capable of taking another bid. This logic applies
non-vul also.
Tiggrr
Kieran Dyke
"Fred." <ghrno-...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:494ce85d-8389-4588...@15g2000yqy.googlegroups.com...
Fred.
Apparently it was a poor call, since he made it with someone who missed the
obvious inference of three card spade support (else 2D last round). Opposite
a partner who's awake, it's probably a perfectly good call.
Tiggrr
Will in New Haven
> "Will in New Haven" <bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote in messagenews:e267bac5-c7f4-4beb...@a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 8, 2:36 pm, "Kieran Dyke" <tig...@idx.com.au> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Jordan" <jc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:HOednXfHpNTbb2vX...@earthlink.com...
>
> > > You, North, hold KTxxx / Txxxx / xx / x.
> > > You are playing a club game with a partner who is the best player in the
> > > room by far but whose bids are not always straight out of the textbook.
> > > Red on white at matchpoints, assume for purposes of question 1 that the
> > > auction has gone as follows:
>
> > > West North East South
>
> > > -- P P 1D
> > > X 1S P P
> > > X ?
>
> > > 1.) What's your call?
>
> > Pass. At this vulnerability, partner should have three spades and rubbish.
>
> Why? If you open QX - XXX - KQJX - KXXX, as many would in third seat,
> you think you should _bid_ over partner's 1S call. Even if partner's
> bid was not over a double, where he would often have five, how can
> partner you don't have a full opening bid?
>
> Vul v not, leaving partner hanging in his 4-2 fit isn't a growth industry.
> Non-vul, he might just have balanced five-count with leadworthy diamonds.
Vul versus not, opening the bidding and finding a rebid means that
you, as partner sort of figured from the start, actually have an
opening bid.
>
>
>
>
> > > For question 2, assume you are forced to pass in 1.) even if that is not
> > > your choice.
>
> > > West North East South
>
> > > -- P P 1D
> > > X 1S P P
> > > X P 2C 2D
> > > P ?
>
> > > 2.) What's your call?
>
> > 2S. He has three spades, remember.
>
> I don't remember it because I don't _believe_ it. A light opening bid
> isn't supposed to have a singleton or void so he can pass any
> response. There is no reason to believe that he must have _three_ of
> the suit I happened to bid. In this case, I wonder why he didn't open
> a Weak 2D. I bid 2H in case it was because he had four Hearts. If I
> have to play a 5-2 or 5-3 Spade fit, so be it.
>
> Come on, now he MUST have three spades, since we know that he passed 1S with
> a hand which was perfectly capable of taking another bid. This logic applies
> non-vul also.
I agree, once he bid again, that he has three Spades. But I don't
believe, at all, that he has to have three Spades to pass my IS bid.
He can't have one but he can certainly have two.
Rob Tamlyn
Do you really open that poor balanced hand vul or not?
You should have some standard for a 3rd seat bid or a far better reason
to bid. If the suit were spades at least you would avoid partner giving
you a problem with a very likely response.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> For question 2, assume you are forced to pass in 1.) even if that is not
>>>> your choice.
>>>> West North East South
>>>> -- P P 1D
>>>> X 1S P P
>>>> X P 2C 2D
>>>> P ?
>>>> 2.) What's your call?
>>> 2S. He has three spades, remember.
>> I don't remember it because I don't _believe_ it. A light opening bid
>> isn't supposed to have a singleton or void so he can pass any
>> response. There is no reason to believe that he must have _three_ of
>> the suit I happened to bid. In this case, I wonder why he didn't open
>> a Weak 2D. I bid 2H in case it was because he had four Hearts. If I
>> have to play a 5-2 or 5-3 Spade fit, so be it.
>>
>> Come on, now he MUST have three spades, since we know that he passed 1S with
>> a hand which was perfectly capable of taking another bid. This logic applies
>> non-vul also.
>
> I agree, once he bid again, that he has three Spades. But I don't
> believe, at all, that he has to have three Spades to pass my IS bid.
> He can't have one but he can certainly have two.
>
> --
> Will in New Haven
>
You can certainly play this way but it seems you are giving up a lot by
allowing for such a poor hand. Responder will have to give up when it
really is our hand.
Eric Leong
> "Jordan" <jc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
> news:HOednXfHpNTbb2vX...@earthlink.com...
>
> > You, North, hold KTxxx / Txxxx / xx / x.
> > You are playing a club game with a partner who is the best player in the
> > room by far but whose bids are not always straight out of the textbook.
> > Red on white at matchpoints, assume for purposes of question 1 that the
> > auction has gone as follows:
>
> > West North East South
>
> > -- P P 1D
> > X 1S P P
> > X ?
>
> > 1.) What's your call?
>
> Pass. At this vulnerability, partner should have three spades and rubbish.
One would think you would automatically open 1D in third seat with:
S xx H xxx D AKQJ C xxxx
for the lead especially at pairs.
Eric Leong
>
>
>
> > For question 2, assume you are forced to pass in 1.) even if that is not
> > your choice.
>
> > West North East South
>
> > -- P P 1D
> > X 1S P P
> > X P 2C 2D
> > P ?
>
> > 2.) What's your call?
>
> 2S. He has three spades, remember.
>
> Tiggrr
>
>
>
>
>
> > Thanks!- Hide quoted text -
Eric Leong
Don't you sense an axe ready to fall? Why do you want to give RHO
another chance?
Partner passed 1S. Do you think he has more than a 12 count.
Doesn't that leave the opponents with a 25 count?
Also, partner probably has some length in clubs as his 2D bid suggests
he thinks he can ruff a club or two on dummy.
Why didn't RHO raise to 3C with a good hand?
Is it just possible RHO is stilling with 4-4 with good majors just
waiting to express an opinion about 2S or 2H?
If you bid 2H or 2S, one would think the best you can hope for is
brain dead opponents and at least minus 200 undoubled.
Eric Leong
Travis Crump
> On Nov 8, 11:36 am, "Kieran Dyke" <tig...@idx.com.au> wrote:
>> "Jordan" <jc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:HOednXfHpNTbb2vX...@earthlink.com...
>>
>>> You, North, hold KTxxx / Txxxx / xx / x.
>>> You are playing a club game with a partner who is the best player in the
>>> room by far but whose bids are not always straight out of the textbook.
>>> Red on white at matchpoints, assume for purposes of question 1 that the
>>> auction has gone as follows:
>>> West North East South
>>> -- P P 1D
>>> X 1S P P
>>> X ?
>>> 1.) What's your call?
>> Pass. At this vulnerability, partner should have three spades and rubbish.
>
> One would think you would automatically open 1D in third seat with:
> S xx H xxx D AKQJ C xxxx
>
> for the lead especially at pairs.
>
> Eric Leong
>
>>
For right or wrong, intentionally making partner play in a trump suit of
4 small opposite 2 small could easily blow 3 or 4 boards as partner
contemplates how insane I've gotten. One partner might even concede
down 7. If I felt compelled to open this I'd bid 2C in tempo. In
general I don't like opening light on balanced hands.
Travis
Eric Leong
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Just because you passed partner with a two card suit that doesn't mean
partner is going to end up playing there. On the other hand, a diamond
lead could be a real match point killer lead.
Eric Leong
Kieran Dyke
"Eric Leong" <ewleo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fa5e9d50-5f46-45f2...@v15g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 8, 11:36 am, "Kieran Dyke" <tig...@idx.com.au> wrote:
> "Jordan" <jc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
> news:HOednXfHpNTbb2vX...@earthlink.com...
>
> > You, North, hold KTxxx / Txxxx / xx / x.
> > You are playing a club game with a partner who is the best player in the
> > room by far but whose bids are not always straight out of the textbook.
> > Red on white at matchpoints, assume for purposes of question 1 that the
> > auction has gone as follows:
>
> > West North East South
>
> > -- P P 1D
> > X 1S P P
> > X ?
>
> > 1.) What's your call?
>
> Pass. At this vulnerability, partner should have three spades and rubbish.
One would think you would automatically open 1D in third seat with:
S xx H xxx D AKQJ C xxxx
for the lead especially at pairs.
Eric Leong
I'm not sure that it's such a great choice, VUL v NOT. Vulnerable, I
wouldn't open a rotten hand here without 3-3 majors or a rebid. Non-vul,
pass over 1S could be any old crap.
Obviously, passing 1S and bidding a voluntary 2D later confirms three card
spade support regardless of vulnerability.
Tiggrr
Eric Leong
> "Eric Leong" <ewleong...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:fa5e9d50-5f46-45f2...@v15g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 8, 11:36 am, "Kieran Dyke" <tig...@idx.com.au> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Jordan" <jc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:HOednXfHpNTbb2vX...@earthlink.com...
>
> > > You, North, hold KTxxx / Txxxx / xx / x.
> > > You are playing a club game with a partner who is the best player in the
> > > room by far but whose bids are not always straight out of the textbook.
> > > Red on white at matchpoints, assume for purposes of question 1 that the
> > > auction has gone as follows:
>
> > > West North East South
>
> > > -- P P 1D
> > > X 1S P P
> > > X ?
>
> > > 1.) What's your call?
>
> > Pass. At this vulnerability, partner should have three spades and rubbish.
>
> One would think you would automatically open 1D in third seat with:
> S xx H xxx D AKQJ C xxxx
>
> for the lead especially at pairs.
>
> Eric Leong
>
> I'm not sure that it's such a great choice, VUL v NOT. Vulnerable, I
> wouldn't open a rotten hand here without 3-3 majors or a rebid. Non-vul,
> pass over 1S could be any old crap.
>
Bidding 1D gains immediately when the opponents buy the hand and
partner is on lead.
You pay off if partner bids 1S and he is allowed to play just 1S.
At pairs, I am more than willing to pay off to this parlay.
> Obviously, passing 1S and bidding a voluntary 2D later confirms three card
> spade support regardless of vulnerability.
>
> Tiggrr
>
>
>
>
>
> > > For question 2, assume you are forced to pass in 1.) even if that is not
> > > your choice.
>
> > > West North East South
>
> > > -- P P 1D
> > > X 1S P P
> > > X P 2C 2D
> > > P ?
>
> > > 2.) What's your call?
>
> > 2S. He has three spades, remember.
>
> > Tiggrr
>
> > > Thanks!- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Where are the clubs? Why didn't RHO raise clubs?
Why didn't LHO bid hearts? I can see from the bidding partner has at
least five diamonds, a few clubs, a few hearts which doesn't leave
partner with a lot of room to have three spades.
Even if partner has 3 spades do you think you are getting a bargain
when the opponents have about a 25 count and RHO has about a 19-20
count and 4-4 in the majors?
Against reasonably competent opponents, RHO just can't wait for you to
bid. You would be very lucky to get out for -200.
Eric Leong
Kieran Dyke
Eric Leong
If my partner's sequence shows three spades (which it obviously does), why
would I attempt to analyse the opponents' auction to work out how many
spades he has?
Tiggrr
Eric Leong
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Maybe because four hands make up a deal rather than two hands?
Just out of curiousity, give one specific deal where partner has three
spades, the opponents have about 25 hcp, the opponents have bid
reasonably, and being in 2S is a great bargain.
Eric Leong
Will in New Haven
No. I don't even play "third seat light" as a principle.
>
> You should have some standard for a 3rd seat bid or a far better reason
> to bid. If the suit were spades at least you would avoid partner giving
> you a problem with a very likely response.
KQJX is an awfully good reason to bid a suit, Much better than AXXX.
But I don't open that hand vul. versus not. If I open 1D non-vul, I
pass any response. Let the opponents worry about whether 1S is our
best spot.
How much _better_ hand can he have an not rebid over my forcing
response? There is a player around here who will open a 13/14-count
and pass his partner's one-level response with three cards in support
but he loses or breaks even on those hands every time.
Will in New Haven
If you opened this hand, which many people would, and then rebid it,
you would find most partners bidding on and assuming that you had an
opening bid. The people who get away with opening and rebidding this
hand do not do so in tempo. I have seen someone, playing with a good
partner, bid almost exactly this hand exactly as you plan to and wind
up watching partner play 2NT for a disasterous result. Partner would
have had a disasterous result in 1S but _the opponents did not know
that_ Most of the results in the room were the other pair playing it
and going down. If he had passed, we would have done the same.
--
Will in New Haven
>
>
>
>
>
> >>> For question 2, assume you are forced to pass in 1.) even if that is not
> >>> your choice.
> >>> West North East South
> >>> -- P P 1D
> >>> X 1S P P
> >>> X P 2C 2D
> >>> P ?
> >>> 2.) What's your call?
> >> 2S. He has three spades, remember.
>
> >> Tiggrr
>
> >>> Thanks!- Hide quoted text -
> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Will in New Haven
Because playing 2D in a 6-2 fit has a hidden advantage and you aren't
likely to get a plus score anyway. Spades only score better than
Diamonds when you are making your contract. Both suits are very
possibly breaking badly and they have better cards. The hidden
advantage to passing 2D is that it makes it easier for them to go
ahead and bid their contract. Sometimes it is better to let the
opponents play the hand. Since I would _love_ it if someone decides he
has a Heart fit and I can't outbid 3C anyway, passing has some
appeal.
Rob Tamlyn
Why should I believe the opponents have bid reasonably?
The question should be do you want to play in 2S or 2D not whether 2S is
a great bargain or not. I picture partner with a hand of this type:
Jxx
x
KJTxx
AQJx
If you allow for passing 1S with 2 card support, you are going to end up
in 1S down several far too often IMO. You also will add uncertainty when
responder wants to compete in spades and you have opened a trashy 1D.
Some of the suggested hands for opening 1D vul (with 2 card spades
support) in 3rd seat are quite atrocious IMO.
Rob
Will in New Haven
The hand you give is also atrocious, in a different way. It would be
atrocious to pass the 1S response with that hand. Partner could easily
have passed a hand in first seat, in most of the partnerships that
inhabit this newsgroup, with a hand that would make 4S a good
contract. Partner bid 1S over a Double, so raising him to two isn't
unreasonable. If you are in a partnership that plays "ignore the
Double," a 2C rebid is reasonable.
I don't play "third-seat-light" in principle but the hand that Eric
gave, with AKQJ of Diamonds and out, is very tempting. And taking a
rebid shows a full opening bid.
jogs
> You, North, hold KTxxx / Txxxx / xx / x.
> You are playing a club game with a partner who is the best player in the
> room by far but whose bids are not always straight out of the textbook.
> Red on white at matchpoints, assume for purposes of question 1 that the
> auction has gone as follows:
>
> West North East South
>
> -- P P 1D
> X 1S P P
> X ?
>
> 1.) What's your call?
>
> your choice.
>
> West North East South
>
> -- P P 1D
> X 1S P P
> X P 2C 2D
> P ?
>
> 2.) What's your call?
>
1) Pass 1D. Don't bid 1S. Shows values you don't have.
2) PASS.
Andrew
<bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote:
> On Nov 8, 2:36 pm, "Kieran Dyke" <tig...@idx.com.au> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Jordan" <jc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:HOednXfHpNTbb2vX...@earthlink.com...
>
> > > You, North, hold KTxxx / Txxxx / xx / x.
> > > You are playing a club game with a partner who is the best player in the
> > > room by far but whose bids are not always straight out of the textbook.
> > > Red on white at matchpoints, assume for purposes of question 1 that the
> > > auction has gone as follows:
>
> > > West North East South
>
> > > -- P P 1D
> > > X 1S P P
> > > X ?
>
> > > 1.) What's your call?
>
> > Pass. At this vulnerability, partner should have three spades and rubbish.
>
> Why? If you open QX - XXX - KQJX - KXXX, as many would in third seat,
> you think you should _bid_ over partner's 1S call. Even if partner's
> bid was not over a double, where he would often have five, how can
> partner you don't have a full opening bid?
I would have some choice words for any partner who opened this light
hand with a doubleton spade.
> > > For question 2, assume you are forced to pass in 1.) even if that is not
> > > your choice.
>
> > > West North East South
>
> > > -- P P 1D
> > > X 1S P P
> > > X P 2C 2D
> > > P ?
>
> > > 2.) What's your call?
>
> > 2S. He has three spades, remember.
>
> I don't remember it because I don't _believe_ it. A light opening bid
> isn't supposed to have a singleton or void so he can pass any
> response. There is no reason to believe that he must have _three_ of
> the suit I happened to bid. In this case, I wonder why he didn't open
> a Weak 2D. I bid 2H in case it was because he had four Hearts. If I
> have to play a 5-2 or 5-3 Spade fit, so be it.
You think your expert partner first tried to play a 4-2 spade fit and
now is trying to play a 5-1 diamond fit with no 3-card spade fit in
reserve? Count me in with Kieran. Partner needs his expert card
revoked if he does not have a 3-card spade fit as a fallback position
on this auction.
Andrew
Will in New Haven
> On Nov 8, 12:52 pm, Will in New Haven
>
>
>
>
>
> <bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 8, 2:36 pm, "Kieran Dyke" <tig...@idx.com.au> wrote:
>
> > > "Jordan" <jc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
> > >news:HOednXfHpNTbb2vX...@earthlink.com...
>
> > > > You, North, hold KTxxx / Txxxx / xx / x.
> > > > You are playing a club game with a partner who is the best player in the
> > > > room by far but whose bids are not always straight out of the textbook.
> > > > Red on white at matchpoints, assume for purposes of question 1 that the
> > > > auction has gone as follows:
>
> > > > West North East South
>
> > > > -- P P 1D
> > > > X 1S P P
> > > > X ?
>
> > > > 1.) What's your call?
>
> > > Pass. At this vulnerability, partner should have three spades and rubbish.
>
> > Why? If you open QX - XXX - KQJX - KXXX, as many would in third seat,
> > you think you should _bid_ over partner's 1S call. Even if partner's
> > bid was not over a double, where he would often have five, how can
> > partner you don't have a full opening bid?
>
> I would have some choice words for any partner who opened this light
> hand with a doubleton spade.
People do it, experts do it. It is called "third-seat light." I don't
play it as a style but KQJX is a pretty good lead-director. And a
rebid shows a full opening bid.
>
>
>
>
>
> > > > For question 2, assume you are forced to pass in 1.) even if that is not
> > > > your choice.
>
> > > > West North East South
>
> > > > -- P P 1D
> > > > X 1S P P
> > > > X P 2C 2D
> > > > P ?
>
> > > > 2.) What's your call?
>
> > > 2S. He has three spades, remember.
>
> > I don't remember it because I don't _believe_ it. A light opening bid
> > isn't supposed to have a singleton or void so he can pass any
> > response. There is no reason to believe that he must have _three_ of
> > the suit I happened to bid. In this case, I wonder why he didn't open
> > a Weak 2D. I bid 2H in case it was because he had four Hearts. If I
> > have to play a 5-2 or 5-3 Spade fit, so be it.
>
> You think your expert partner first tried to play a 4-2 spade fit and
> now is trying to play a 5-1 diamond fit with no 3-card spade fit in
> reserve? Count me in with Kieran. Partner needs his expert card
> revoked if he does not have a 3-card spade fit as a fallback position
> on this auction.
When partner bids 2D, it is clear that he _could_ have bid 2D over 1S.
So he must have three Spades. That is logical. To play him for three
Spades because he passes your 1S response is illogical. Passing 1S
does not mean that the final contract will be 1S. Bidding over 1S, if
you opened light, will mislead partner. Of course, no one has yet
mentioned whether you play Weak 2D or not and that is relevant.
--
Will in New haven
Andrew
wrote:
Sure experts open light. But they do it when they are prepared for
partner's likely rebid. opening light vul against not is a risk. Why
compound that risk bu opening light on a hand that is not prepared to
play 1S?
> > > > > For question 2, assume you are forced to pass in 1.) even if that is not
> > > > > your choice.
>
> > > > > West North East South
>
> > > > > -- P P 1D
> > > > > X 1S P P
> > > > > X P 2C 2D
> > > > > P ?
>
> > > > > 2.) What's your call?
>
> > > > 2S. He has three spades, remember.
>
> > > I don't remember it because I don't _believe_ it. A light opening bid
> > > isn't supposed to have a singleton or void so he can pass any
> > > response. There is no reason to believe that he must have _three_ of
> > > the suit I happened to bid. In this case, I wonder why he didn't open
> > > a Weak 2D. I bid 2H in case it was because he had four Hearts. If I
> > > have to play a 5-2 or 5-3 Spade fit, so be it.
>
> > You think your expert partner first tried to play a 4-2 spade fit and
> > now is trying to play a 5-1 diamond fit with no 3-card spade fit in
> > reserve? Count me in with Kieran. Partner needs his expert card
> > revoked if he does not have a 3-card spade fit as a fallback position
> > on this auction.
>
> When partner bids 2D, it is clear that he _could_ have bid 2D over 1S.
> So he must have three Spades. That is logical.
So are you recanting your position that you should look for a heart
fit because you now acknowledge opener must hold 3-spades?
> To play him for three
> Spades because he passes your 1S response is illogical. Passing 1S
> does not mean that the final contract will be 1S.
That is exactly what it means on the 1/3 of hands when the opponents
pass it out. As responder I would not relish playing 1S holding: Kxxx,
KQx, xx, xxxx
Andrew
Will in New Haven
Yes.
>
> > To play him for three
> > Spades because he passes your 1S response is illogical. Passing 1S
> > does not mean that the final contract will be 1S.
>
> That is exactly what it means on the 1/3 of hands when the opponents
> pass it out. As responder I would not relish playing 1S holding: Kxxx,
> KQx, xx, xxxx
And you would bid 1S over a takeout double. I suppose most people
would. I prefer 1NT to trying to find a fit in a suit that is likely
to break poorly. I don't say we shouldn't find the fit, if we have it,
because it might play poorly but I think the parley that partner has
four Spades and it plays well is low enough in probability that I will
bid my general shape and strength.
Be that as it may, low-level auctions where we only bid once each
often reach less than wonderful contracts. But the opponents have to
figure out that our contract is optimal for them. I've played some bad
contracts and I have to say that I don't emphasize my emotional
reaction to this sort of thing the way several people in this thread
do.
Say you had:
KQXXX - KX - JX - JXXX and passed in first seat. The auction went the
way it has been described and partner bid 2C over your 1S bid (and a
pass on your right) Are you going to pass? Isn't partner supposed to
have an opening bid now? If he has a nice fourteen-count where game is
possible opposite this hand (and you belong in NT if you belong in a
partial) is he supposed to JUMP?
Eric Leong
>
> - Show quoted text -
Don't you think RHO is waiting to drop the axe?
Eric Leong
henry...@yahoo.com
> You are playing a club game with a partner who is the best player in the
> room by far but whose bids are not always straight out of the textbook.
> Red on white at matchpoints, assume for purposes of question 1 that the
> auction has gone as follows:
>
> West North East South
>
> -- P P 1D
> X 1S P P
> X ?
>
> 1.) What's your call?
>
> your choice.
>
> West North East South
>
> -- P P 1D
> X 1S P P
> X P 2C 2D
> P ?
>
> 2.) What's your call?
>
I don't mind the 1s bid, and in my view, passing 1s promises 3-card
support. If South has opened on some bad hand, as some have proposed,
he needs to go through with it. Opening 1d with
xx
xxx
AKQJ
xxxx
for the lead is reasonable. Passing 1s, when responder could have
5432
Ax
xxxx
Axx
is not. If I'm going to open 1d with that hand, I'm going to rebid
2d. AKQJ looks more like a rebiddable 5-card suit than xx looks like
a passable 3-card raise.
There is an older idea, according to which a rebid by a 3rd seat
opener promises a real, not a light, opening bid. For players of that
bent, passing 1s with a doubleton is the normal action. That idea has
gone out of style because it tended to leave responder in terrible
fits. Nowadays, the more accepted style is that passing promises
support (I suppose one could argue whether a 3rd seat opener could
pass with, say, Kx of spades = tolerance, not support).
Henrysun909
Andrew
<bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote:
No. Any rebid is better than pass.
> Isn't partner supposed to have an opening bid now?
Yes he is.
> If he has a nice fourteen-count where game is
> possible opposite this hand (and you belong in NT if you belong in a
> partial) is he supposed to JUMP?
No, of course not. But I fail to see how this is relevant. I did not
suggest that a light opener should take a second call on a hand that
was not worth opening in the first place.
Andrew
Will in New Haven
wrote:
2D is _much_ more likely to be the final contract than 1S. Or your
partner might decide that you really have an opening bid and bid 2NT
(or 3NT) with AQXX - QXX - XXX - KXX. Pass and let _them_ figure out
that defending 1S is right for them, and it might not be.
>
> There is an older idea, according to which a rebid by a 3rd seat
> opener promises a real, not a light, opening bid. For players of that
> bent, passing 1s with a doubleton is the normal action. That idea has
> gone out of style because it tended to leave responder in terrible
> fits. Nowadays, the more accepted style is that passing promises
> support (I suppose one could argue whether a 3rd seat opener could
> pass with, say, Kx of spades = tolerance, not support).
The people who get away with rebidding when they don't have an opening
bid, in my experience, are the bad and lower-level intermediate
players who basically make it very clear that they are rebidding under
durress. Black magic gets their partner to pass.
Good players may have the understanding you mention but their partners
still hang them. The "older idea" is the only one that doesn't require
telepathy. If you get lucky and your partner has a hand with no
ambitions you get away with it. Otherwise, he thinks you have an
opening bid.
How the Hell would you tell that partner opened 1D and rebid 2C
without an opening bid if you had AJXXX - XX - QJXX - QX?
I don't open light very often and I will pass no matter what my
partner responds if I do.
Will in New Haven
Other people on this thread are suggesting that opener needs three
Spades to pass. So he is going to have to rebid without an actual
opening bid or not open in the first place.
He is going to have to be much more selective in his light openers
than most people actually _are_ at the table, never doing so with a
doubleton in a Major. And partner's pass of 1S pretty much says that
his hand was _not_ worth opening in the first place.
judyorcarl
>
> - Show quoted text -
Partner could have a worthless spade suit over a takeout double?
Maybe, as a psych, to hope the opponents don't have the tools to
reclaim their godgiven suit fit.
Carl
henry...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
OK, maybe I exaggerated for effect.
Would you be happier if the hand were
Q9xx
Kxx
xxxx
Ax
opposite
xx
xxx
AKQJ
xxxx
rofl??
Henrysun909
Eric Leong
wrote:
Opening 1D is a gamble. Bidding on over 1S is worse.
But even if partner has this hand, a good part of the time your
opponents are not going to sell out to 1S unless they peek at all the
hands.
When you open 1D, you are and instant winner when LHO declares the
hand.
You are only an loser if
1. partner responds 1S (why is this a 100% possibility?)
2. partner has only four spades instead of five.
3. partner is allowed to play in 1S.
Sure, I am more than willing to pay off to this parlay. In my opinion,
worrying about a 1S response is the equivalent of worrying about being
down in a game if trumps are 4-1 or worse and I think I am being
generous.
Eric Leong
>If I'm going to open 1d with that hand, I'm going to rebid
> 2d. AKQJ looks more like a rebiddable 5-card suit than xx looks like
> a passable 3-card raise.
>
> There is an older idea, according to which a rebid by a 3rd seat
> opener promises a real, not a light, opening bid. For players of that
> bent, passing 1s with a doubleton is the normal action. That idea has
> gone out of style because it tended to leave responder in terrible
> fits. Nowadays, the more accepted style is that passing promises
> support (I suppose one could argue whether a 3rd seat opener could
> pass with, say, Kx of spades = tolerance, not support).
>
Will in New Haven
You left out another huge advantage to the 1D opening bid. They will
almost never play a NT game or even a partial.
--
Will in New Haven
>
>
>
> >If I'm going to open 1d with that hand, I'm going to rebid
> > 2d. AKQJ looks more like a rebiddable 5-card suit than xx looks like
> > a passable 3-card raise.
>
> > There is an older idea, according to which a rebid by a 3rd seat
> > opener promises a real, not a light, opening bid. For players of that
> > bent, passing 1s with a doubleton is the normal action. That idea has
> > gone out of style because it tended to leave responder in terrible
> > fits. Nowadays, the more accepted style is that passing promises
> > support (I suppose one could argue whether a 3rd seat opener could
> > pass with, say, Kx of spades = tolerance, not support).
>
> > Henrysun909- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Andrew
I think so too.
> So he is going to have to rebid without an actual
> opening bid or not open in the first place.
I vote for "not open in the first place." A light opening bid is an
operation of a sort and you should only operate when your hand is
otherwise perfect for it.
Andrew
Andrew
Will in New Haven
As a general rule, I will buy that. But I am of the "open pretty much
the same hands in all seats" persuasion, based on the first K-S book.
What does a player whos partner systemically doesn't open KTXX - QXX -
QXX - KQX DO when it reaches him in third seat and he has AJ - KJXX -
JTXX - XXX? This is very lkely to be THEIR hand. If he opens and
partner responds 1S, people say he should rebid. But then partner will
play him for an opening bid. But 1S may not be optimal if he passes.
For those players, and these may not be the best example hands, light
third _isn't_ an operation. It is a normal part of their system. I
think, with the hand Eric gave:
XX - XXX - AKQJ - XXXX, opening 1D would _be_ an operation. But I
think it is also very tempting. Paying off to the parley that
responder will bid 1S, it will be the final contract and it will be
horrible is not unreasonable. I don't think you can open that hand and
rebid.
Kieran Dyke
"Will in New Haven" <bill....@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote in message
news:2dd1bc51-53c1-4fa9...@m16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
Did you look at the vulnerability for the initial problem?
Tiggrr
Will in New Haven
> "Will in New Haven" <bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote in messagenews:2dd1bc51-53c1-4fa9...@m16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
Yes, and that would keep me from falling into this particular
temptation. However, it is close. Three good opening leads and one or
two neutral results and one horrible result isn't a net loss. The
people who don't open some pretty good hands in first seat have the
same problem here, though. They have to open "to protect," and partner
will think they have an opening bid if they rebid.
Henry may be right that the understanding now is that passing
guarantees three-card support and a rebid doesn't promise an opening
bid. However, the players I play against flounder when opener rebids
having opened light. The good pairs have bigger problems than the bad
ones.
Fred.
> "Fred." <ghrno-goo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:494ce85d-8389-4588...@15g2000yqy.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 8, 11:31 am, "Jordan" <jc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > You, North, hold KTxxx / Txxxx / xx / x.
> > You are playing a club game with a partner who is the best player in the
> > room by far but whose bids are not always straight out of the textbook.
> > Red on white at matchpoints, assume for purposes of question 1 that the
> > auction has gone as follows:
>
> > West North East South
>
> > -- P P 1D
> > X 1S P P
> > X ?
>
> > 1.) What's your call?
>
> > your choice.
>
> > West North East South
>
> > -- P P 1D
> > X 1S P P
> > X P 2C 2D
> > P ?
>
> > 2.) What's your call?
>
>
> I agree with your 1S the first time. But now, partner knows where the
> diamond length is likely to be and has rebid diamonds anyhow. Respect
> partner and pass rather than guessing at another spot. If 2D was a
> poor call, partner will have a valuable learning experience.
>
> Fred.
>
> Apparently it was a poor call, since he made it with someone who missed the
> obvious inference of three card spade support (else 2D last round). Opposite
> a partner who's awake, it's probably a perfectly good call.
>
> Tiggrr- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I agree that if responder's style is to largely ignore the intervening
double, then it is obvious that opener has a 3-card spade holding. On
the other hand, if responder's 1S call requires 5-card length or extra
values, then there is an obvious inference that opener does not have 3-
card spade support since opener bid 2D instead of 2S after the
opponents reopened.
Playing with my regular partner, I would infer the 3-card support, but
most others I play with expect more allowances for the double, and,
from them I expect fine diamonds and a doubleton spade.
Fred.
Andrew
I like 1D on his example much better than 1D on yours. On his example,
any lead other than a diamond is a disaster. On your example, either a
club or a spade is usually an acceptable alternative.
> Paying off to the parley that responder will bid 1S, it will be the final contract and it will be
> > horrible is not unreasonable. I don't think you can open that hand and
> > rebid.
I agree. I am actually surprised it is even a topic of disagreement. I
thought it was completely standard for a rebid by opener to promise a
hand that you would have opened in 1st or second chair.
> > Did you look at the vulnerability for the initial problem?
>
> > Tiggrr
>
> Yes, and that would keep me from falling into this particular
> temptation. However, it is close. Three good opening leads and one or
> two neutral results and one horrible result isn't a net loss.
The problem is that -2 undoubled is a horrible result and that is easy
to accomplish if you open on a balanced piece of cheese.
> The people who don't open some pretty good hands in first seat have the
> same problem here, though. They have to open "to protect," and partner
> will think they have an opening bid if they rebid.
That's the main reason almost everyone gave up playing Roth Stone.
> Henry may be right that the understanding now is that passing
> guarantees three-card support and a rebid doesn't promise an opening
> bid.
I don't know about that. I think a rebid still promises a full opening
bid.
> However, the players I play against flounder when opener rebids
> having opened light. The good pairs have bigger problems than the bad
> ones.
IMO it's just dumb to flounder this way. If you are not prepared for
responder's likely rebid, don't open.
Andrew
Andrew
I am afraid I agree with almost none of the statements in this post.
Even if partner passes 2D, you have raised the level, so 2D has to
play 2 tricks better than 1S. And what's to stop partner from bidding
on? I can not imagine rebidding 2D with these cards.
> There is an older idea, according to which a rebid by a 3rd seat
> opener promises a real, not a light, opening bid. For players of that
> bent, passing 1s with a doubleton is the normal action. That idea has
> gone out of style
I think we read different fashion magazines. I was not aware that it
had gone out of style.
> because it tended to leave responder in terrible fits.
Only if you open light on inappropriate hands.
> Nowadays, the more accepted style is that passing promises
> support (I suppose one could argue whether a 3rd seat opener could
> pass with, say, Kx of spades = tolerance, not support).
Passing at the 1-level always promised 3-card support. If partner
responded at the 2-level showing a 5+ card suit pass on Hx reasonable.
Andrew
Will in New Haven
"Always promised three-card support" from what player? From most
players this has never been true. If you maintain that you can only
open light if at least 3-3 in the Majors, then you aren't going to be
opening light nearly as often as is common. If you need HX to pass a
two-level response are you going to rebid over a 2H response with AKJX
- XX - KXXX - XXX? I guarantee you most of the known world opens that
hand in third seat. And most of them open 1S and pass 2C. The ones who
think of it as a solid opening bid open 1D and find a rebid but those
are failry rare. When partner has bid at the two level, he is
CERTAINLY going to have ambitions if you rebid.
The idea has always been that you had to pass if you didn't have a
real opening bid and you had to make sure you had at least two cards
in any suit partner mgiht bid, so you COULD pass.
henry...@yahoo.com
I am afraid I agree with almost none of the statements in this post
************************
ROFL, afraid are you??
Of l'li ol' me???
Well, I've been wrong before and I'm sure I'll be wrong again.
Henrysun909
Will in New Haven
wrote:
Some of us get scared when we agree WITH you. But I've been agreeing
with Eric on this thread. So I am TERRIFIED.
Andrew
Mike Lawrence for one. I refer you to his book "Passed Hand Bidding".
> From most players this has never been true. If you maintain that you can only
> open light if at least 3-3 in the Majors, then you aren't going to be
> opening light nearly as often as is common.
Common <> Good.
> If you need HX to pass a two-level response are you going to rebid over a 2H response with AKJX
> - XX - KXXX - XXX?
No, of course not. I have made the point repeatedly in this thread
that a light opening bid does not take a second call. Why do you keep
going back to it?
> I guarantee you most of the known world opens that
> hand in third seat. And most of them open 1S and pass 2C. The ones who
> think of it as a solid opening bid open 1D and find a rebid but those
> are failry rare. When partner has bid at the two level, he is
> CERTAINLY going to have ambitions if you rebid.
>
> The idea has always been that you had to pass if you didn't have a
> real opening bid and you had to make sure you had at least two cards
> in any suit partner mgiht bid, so you COULD pass.
You are preaching to the choir. I agree. In every one of my posts I
have agreed that opener shows a full opening bid if he takes a second
call.
On your example hand, I would open 1S and sheepishly pass 2H, if that
is partner's rebid. However, I would do so knowing that I have less
support than partner expects.
Andrew
Will in New Haven
Ok, so HX isn't the minimum. It's just the minimum that partner
expects. Personally, since my partner didn't open 2H, I'm pretty sure
2H is at best a fair contract. But bidding again will just make things
worse. Sometimes you run into the worst possible situation for your
previous action.
One of the problems in this thread is that I am assuming partner, in
the original post, is a pretty good player who plays passed-hand
situations the way most of the people I play against do. They do not
promise three when they pass partner's response.
I don't open light in third often enough to matter, really.
henry...@yahoo.com
ROFL.
It's not that Eric isn't right, rather often.
It's more that per Eric, he is (1) never wrong and therefore (2) is
entitle to belittle, ridicule, and insult those whose judgment is
different from his.
If he would realize that (1) no one is never wrong, and (2)
differences of bridge judgment are usually the result of honest
differences, not a lack of brain matter (e.g., imagine Al Roth and
Alan Meredith arguing over what is an opening 1-bid, especially in
spades), and hence generally not the appropriate subject matter for
belittlement, ridicule, and insults, I imagine that his reputation
would be rather different, online and in real life.
Henrysun909