SA v. Acol ?
victory...@iol.ie
travelling to the US soon where I hope to play some Bridge.
I'm wondering whether I will find SA much different from Acol and
would like if I could have a brief explanation of the major
differences between the two systems.
Co Wiersma
as a Acol player myself
although with strong NT opening
I maybe make a start
and hopefully I learn something from the responses as well
first I think its quite normal to bid in Acol
1S - 2D
2S - pass
and I think that the 2S bid be forcing for one more round in SA
second : I think that in a 5 card major system , its quite common to play
1S-3S
or
1H-3H
as a weak bid
and usually , 2NT is used as a artificial bid showing a limit raise
Carl
> victory_admi...@iol.ie schreef:
>
> > As a relative beginner playing Acol (4-card Majors,weak NT), I will be
> > travelling to the US soon where I hope to play some Bridge.
>
> > I'm wondering whether I will find SA much different from Acol and
> > would like if I could have a brief explanation of the major
> > differences between the two systems.
>
> as a Acol player myself
> although with strong NT opening
> I maybe make a start
> and hopefully I learn something from the responses as well
>
> first I think its quite normal to bid in Acol
>
> 1S - 2D
> 2S - pass
>
> and I think that the 2S bid be forcing for one more round in SA
>
No it's not forcing. Opener's rebid shows a minimum and can be passed.
> second : I think that in a 5 card major system , its quite common to play
> 1S-3S
>
> or
>
> 1H-3H
> as a weak bid
No, it usually shows 10 - 13 points and is highly invitational but can
be passed with a bare minimum hand.
>
> and usually , 2NT is used as a artificial bid showing a limit raise
No - Usually 1H - 2NT or 1S - 2NT shows a game forcing raise, 13+
support points.
Carl
Rob Morris
> On Jun 6, 7:22 pm, Co Wiersma<jf.wier...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>> first I think its quite normal to bid in Acol
>>
>> 1S - 2D
>> 2S - pass
>>
>> and I think that the 2S bid be forcing for one more round in SA
>>
>
> No it's not forcing. Opener's rebid shows a minimum and can be passed.
Perhaps parent post was remiss in not pointing out that there are
different schools of thought here, but you equally should not be so
dogmatic. Many people play 2S as forcing here. Standard American Yellow
Card stipulates that a two-over-one always promises a second bid (if
below game).
Kleinman and Straguzzi's 'Human Bridge Errors' has an interesting
discussion of this. It describes three styles for the auction 1S-2D:
(a) Standard American primeval: 2H, 2S, 2NT non-forcing, 3D forcing.
(b) Standard old-fashioned American: 2H and 2S forcing, 2NT up to
partnerships (consensus "forcing"), 3D non-forcing.
(c) Standard American contemporary, including SAYC: 2/1 always promises
a below-game rebid, except perhaps for 1S-2H-3H.
For these 3 cases, responder's 1NT bid shows (a) 6-9, (b) 6-10, (c) 6-11
or so.
--
Rob Morris
arr emm four four five (at) cam dot ac dot uk
Carl
I read that one incorrectly, sorry. My dog was too automatic.
Carl
jonathan23
Standard American is a five-card major system with a strong 1NT. What
this means when you're playing is:
-You will have to open a three card minor suit (usually clubs) much
more often than might have been necessary in Acol style bidding.
-You show a weak NT (12-14) by bidding a suit, then rebidding NT at the
cheapest available level, which is the reverse of how Acol styles do it
(bid 1NT right away with 12-14, or bid a suit and rebid 1NT with a
15-16 or maybe 15-17).
-If you have not used Jacoby Transfers after opening 1NT bids before,
you would do well to learn them because they are very common (I would
say nearly universal) here. You will find that transfers make bidding
after 1NT very different when responder has a 5+ card major.
-You can raise partner's opening bid of one of a major suit to the two
level on three-card support much more comfortably when there is no
other good choice. Raises to the three level (limit raises) are
usually best with four-card support.
-If you are _not_ a passed hand, when you make a two-level response in
a new suit to partner's opening one bid of a suit (e.g. 1H-2C or 1S-2D)
you are _promising_ to make another bid if partner's rebid is below
game (I believe that may not be the case with Acol, i.e. you could
pass after 1H-2C-2D).
-Standard American does not use the "MUD" leads from three small cards
that I have been led to believe some Acol players use. The mostly
widely-used rule I've observed is to lead low from three small against
a trump contract, and high against notrump.
For detailed information about the system, here are two documents from
the web that I think are OK:
1) The Richmond Bridge Association in Virginia web-published their
textbook for an introductory course based on Standard American, called
"Funbridge". This is about an 80-page book that covers the basics of
bidding, play, and defense that can be downloaded in pdf form at:
http://richmondbridge.net/PDF/friendlybridgebook_Feb10.pdf
2) The ACBL Standard American Yellow Card (a form of Standard American
with a certain selection of conventions) is described in a short
booklet that you can find at:
http://web2.acbl.org/documentLibrary/play/sayc_book.pdf
(Note that not everyone who plays SA uses all the conventions that are
part of SAYC.)
Good luck!
--
- Jon Campbell
Ottawa CANADA
Kieran Dyke
<victory...@iol.ie> wrote in message
news:ph7o06tm1lvnr19gl...@4ax.com...
Lots of things, like raise structures, are interchangeable. Common practice
may differ, but that's not integral to the basic method. With lots of other
things, like secondary jumps non-forcing (like 1D:1H,1S:3D), the two methods
have become more similar over the years.
Standard's main difference is that it uses a strong notrump, typically
15-17. This means that 1-suit openings, particularly 1-minor, are often a
minimum balanced hand. The expected hand for 1C:1S,2S is a weak notrump with
four spades (but some partnerships bid it with three quite often, me not so
often). Hands which are appreciably better than this, like a good unbalanced
14-count, would have to jump. In Acol, 1C:1S,2S is normally known to have
either extra high cards or extra distributional values, since the rotten
flat hands were already opened 1NT.
Most Americans also play five-card majors. This is a little weird, since
four card majors works reasonably well with a strong notrump (but
atrociously poorly with a weak notrump...all those auctions that go
1S:1NT,"Should I raise and why am I dummy?). So, with no four card minor or
five card major, open 1C with three, or 1D with specifically
4-4-3diamonds-2clubs. And raise these a bit more cautiously than you would
in Acol...a balanced 10-count with four clubs opposite a standard 1C opening
will more often than not belong in 1NT. With better hands, raising is fine
as long as you describe your range accurately, since you can always get out
of foolish minor suit contracts into 3NT.
The split ranges for balanced hands in the 1-suit openings work well - it's
always the "show a minimum or pass if you can" weak notrump types, or the
"rebid strongly" 18-19 types, but the in-between hands, which can be awkward
in some auctions in Acol, are opened 1NT.
There are other matters of style and conventions which will vary regionally
as well, but these are generally not fundamental to the basic method. 2/1 is
common among better players, meaning that a new suit at the two level (like
1S:2D) is forcing to game, and most lesser hands get bundled into 1NT, which
will often be played as forcing or almost-forcing. This pays good dividends
in the 2/1 auctions, which can often benefit from the extra space, but makes
1NT response auctions quite tricky.
Try playing online a little, on BBO perhaps, where american players are
many. A system like SAYC (Standard American Yellow Card) is probably a good
starting point, although in any mid-term or longer partnership you'd hope to
build something better.
Tiggrr
jogs
SA and Acol are totally at opposite ends of the spectrum.
SA five card majors 15-17 NT
Acol four card majors 12-14 NT.
All ambiguous bidding sequences in SA are forcing.
All ambiguous bidding sequences in Acol are nonforcing.
The two systems are incompatible.
Player
> victory_admi...@iol.ie schreef:
Co. Most modern Acol players play 2/1 as forcing to 2NT these days.
Gordon Rainsford
>
> Co. Most modern Acol players play 2/1 as forcing to 2NT these days.
Not over here they don't. There was a period, now gone, when it was
fashionable, but I'm confident it was never played by "most" modern Acol
players.
Co Wiersma
lol
you aint seen nothing yet!
I played many times against people in whos system not only 1H and 1S
opening promises 5+ , but also the 1D opening bid promises 5+
and the only forcing answers were jumps
Now thats a incompatible!
As for strong NT : its not at all alien to Acol
not only are there many Acolplayers all over the world who play strong
NT opening
But also
the original Acol had strong NT when vuln
and I know people who still play it that way
Co Wiersma
Dave Flower
I waqs about to say much the same thing:
In in doubt, in SA its forcing, in Acol non-forcing
Dave Flower
This explains why Drury has never caught on this side of the pond
Dave Flower
Frances
> On Jun 6, 3:22 pm, victory_admi...@iol.ie wrote:
>
> > As a relative beginner playing Acol (4-card Majors,weak NT), I will be
> > travelling to the US soon where I hope to play some Bridge.
>
> > I'm wondering whether I will find SA much different from Acol and
> > would like if I could have a brief explanation of the major
> > differences between the two systems.
>
> SA and Acol are totally at opposite ends of the spectrum.
> SA five card majors 15-17 NT
> Acol four card majors 12-14 NT.
No. There's nothing about Acol which mandates a 12-14 NT. There are
plenty of Acol players who play all sorts of different NT ranges.
> All ambiguous bidding sequences in SA are forcing.
> All ambiguous bidding sequences in Acol are nonforcing.
That bit is certainly true
Eric Leong
>
> - Show quoted text -
What is Acol these days? I asked in the past, but I can't seem to get
an answer.
Is there a Standard Acol?
Eric Leong
henry...@yahoo.com
Yes, you will find Acol very different from SA especially in
structure, but your task is harder because there are many varieties of
SA. My suggestion to you is that you buy the book, "Standard American
Yellow Card" to give you an idea about what passes for standardized
bidding in the US.
The main points are:
1nt in SA is always strong, nominally 15-17 hcps, as opposed to being
weak in Acol (12-14) or variable 912-14 at some colors, 15-16 in
others).
1M opening bids in SA are 5-card long, whereas in Acol they are 4-
cards long
2-
henry...@yahoo.com
wrote:
2-bids (2d/2h/2s) in Acol are strong and forcing for one round, but in
SA they are weak. In particular, 2d is sometimes weak but there are
other artificial meanings, such as 4 spades + 5 hearts and a minimum
hand (Flannery convention) or three suited (4441 or 5440 with any
shortness but no 5M) and minimum strength (11-15). If you play
Benjaminized Acol, where 2c = strong one suited and 2d = art GF, you
will find virtually no pairs playing that on this side of the pond.
In general, Acol has a limit bidding philosophy: while new suits are
usually forcing, old suits are often not, whether they are preference
bids (1s 2c 2d 2s) or jump raises (1m 3m or 1M 3M). SA generally has
a forcing philosophy where the 2/1 is very strong and is usually
forcing to game. And the raise structures of the two methods are very
different.
Henrysun909
Co Wiersma
John Hall
Not among UK tournament players.
--
John Hall
"I don't even butter my bread; I consider that cooking."
Katherine Cebrian
Steven Gibbs
news:ALfyGdGw...@jhall.demon.co.uk.invalid...
> In article <4c0d348c$0$22935$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl>,
> Co Wiersma <jf.wi...@xs4all.nl> writes:
>>are the strong Acol two bids still in use any much ?
>
> Not among UK tournament players.
... but very much so amongst near-beginners.
Steven
KWSchneider
>
> Most Americans also play five-card majors. This is a little weird, since
> four card majors works reasonably well with a strong notrump (but
> atrociously poorly with a weak notrump...all those auctions that go
> 1S:1NT,"Should I raise and why am I dummy?). So, with no four card minor or
> five card major, open 1C with three, or 1D with specifically
> 4-4-3diamonds-2clubs. And raise these a bit more cautiously than you would
> in Acol...a balanced 10-count with four clubs opposite a standard 1C opening
> will more often than not belong in 1NT. With better hands, raising is fine
> as long as you describe your range accurately, since you can always get out
> of foolish minor suit contracts into 3NT.
>
weak notrump" statement. I presume that you make this statement in the
context of a NON strong club structure. And certainly, not in the
context of canape.
Kurt
Frances
Acol is not a system in the way that, say, SAYC or SEF are systems.
It's more an approach in the same way that, say, "strong club" or
perhaps "2/1" are. The fundamental parts of Acol are:
- 4-card majors
- light 2/1 responses
- limit bidding (which leads to the idea that a lot of bids are non-
forcing)
- Strong two bids
There are very few tournament players around who really play all of
this - you get those who play a 5-card spade suit, or who open the
lower of two four card suits, and 1C on a 4333 so that their majors
are close to 5-card suits; you find people playing artificial raises
of one type or another and very few peple still play strong twos in
three suits.
However, the underlying philosophy hangs on. Originally 1S - 2C - 2D
was non-forcing (if you have a non-minimum opening, you jump to 3D)
but now most Acol players consider it as forcing for a round; but it
is still the case that you can stop in 2M after a 2/1. And in
competition if it's unclear whether a bid is forcing or not, it seems
that Acol players will all say it isn't, and American players will all
say it is.
Historically the concept of 'limit bidding' was one of the things that
made Acol so different from SA: 1S - 3S was invitational, as was 1S -
2NT. Even now Acol plays 1S - 2C - 2D - 3S as invitational.
> Is there a Standard Acol?
No. The EBU have published something called 'Standard English' which
is aimed at near-beginners, and there are occaisional novice
tournaments run as 'simple systems' which only allow a basic form of
Acol. There are also various books around, Crowhurst's book "Acol in
the 80s" or something was influential when it was published (rather a
long time ago!).
I think other countries may have published 'standard' summaries of
what is popular - there is something called "Dutch Acol", for example.
>
> Eric Leong- Hide quoted text -
Player
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Now that is an interesting point. Amongst the Acol players in
Australia you would rarely find a pair that does not play that 2/1 is
forcing to 2NT.
Kieran Dyke
"Player" <ron...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:65a3d38a-d78d-4583...@y6g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
Probably depends on the state. When I used to play Acol in SA, I don't think
that anybody played anything as forcing to 2NT.
Does 2NT get a game bonus in Victoria?
Tiggrr
Steve Foster
> I think other countries may have published 'standard' summaries of
> what is popular - there is something called "Dutch Acol", for example.
I guess that's the version where the suits are clubs, diamonds, hearts
and schpades. <g>
--
Steve Foster
For SSL Certificates, Domains, etc, visit.:
https://netshop.virtual-isp.net
Co Wiersma
in my system
I bid my 4-card suits bottom up
1S is 4+
but can only be 4 if 12-14 points and a 4-3-3-3 shape
and the 3S response is limit
but
1S-2C
2D -3S
is absolutely forcing for me
This is the same framework as
the system played by Berry Westra and Enri Leufkens when they became
word champion teams in 1993
obvious they had a lot of gadgets and relay biddings that made them
excellent slambidders
Its a very good system for the average clubplayer ( without all them
gadgets that is)
Berry Westra wrote some books about it.
But sadly , very few people in The netherlands play this system
Co Wiersma
Douglas Newlands
I think the point is that you can use 1S-2C-3C as extras in the same way
that 2/1 systems do because you can bid 1S-2C-2S for minimums knowing
you are getting another bid.
doug
Player
>
> - Show quoted text -
"Does 2NT get a game bonus in Victoria?" Definitely. Victorian players
are so poor that they cna only make 8 tricks where others make nine.
Seriously though, that was the style advocated and taught by the
Borins and they had a large following. I believe it was based on Don
Evans' version of Baronised Acol.
Ron
Player
>
> - Show quoted text -
It was 4 card suits up the line, 12-14NT all round, open 1C on a 4333
shape 15+, Swiss raises., 1M 2NT some sort of GF raise, inverted
minors, 2/1 forcing to 2NT.
Sequences like 1H 2m 2? 3H categorically GF. Worked well and the
Borins had a lot of success. Probably the best mixed pair in the world
for some years.
Ron
David Stevenson
>What is Acol these days? I asked in the past, but I can't seem to get
>an answer.
>Is there a Standard Acol?
No, there is no standard Acol. What there is is a general agreement
to play certain things. Similarly to the difference between SA and 2/1
in the ACBL, Acol here tends to encompass club Acol andtournament Acol
which are two rather different beasts.
To me the definition of Acol is that it is a four-card major based
system with light 2/1s. Not much else is truly basic, since Acol
players play Acol Twos, Lucas, the Multi and three weak twos. Some play
change of suit forcing, most don't. A 2NT response is natural in
old-fashioned Acol, but tournament players generally play it as a raise
or a very strong hand.
But there are sufficient similarities that if I play with another
player and agree Acol, there are many things I will get right,
especially if I know whether he is a club player or a tournament
player.
--
David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways
Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 ICQ: 20039682
<webj...@googlemail.com> bluejak on OKB
EBL TD Bridgepage: http://blakjak.org/brg_menu.htm
David Stevenson
Not necessarily: it depends how they were taught, and which clubs they
play at. A lot of clubs have over 80% of Acol players playing "Benji"
<shudder> where 2C shows a pre-empt in any suit with at least 7 playing
tricks <grin>, 2D shows a game force with a lot of luck, and 2H and 2S
show 3-level pre-empts for wimps.
tussock
> Is there a Standard Acol?
From what I recall from ~10 years back in NZ ...
2C ~23+ HCP.
Strong 2D/H/S, 6-card+ and 8 quick tricks.
2N 21-22 balanced.
1N 12-14 balanced.
Balanced 15-20 or unbalanced 13-22 open longest suit.
Open lowest if all four-cards, higher if two five-card.
This makes all suit openings strong by virtue of HCP or shape,
especially so in the Majors.
Responses over 1 of a suit
1 NT 6-9 balanced, regardless of opening, to play.
2 NT 10-11 balanced.
3 NT 12-?? balanced.
1/1 6-12 unbalanced, looking for a better suit.
2/1 9-12 unbalanced, no support.
JS 13+, cheapest long suit, forcing, no 4-card support.
Raise 6-9 with 4-card support, unbalanced.
JRaise 10-12 "", invitational to major game.
2JRaise 13-?? "".
These are very conservative, but that's ACOL. They teach 25 HCP for
3NT, 26 HCP for 4M with a fit and good shape, and so on.
Rebid fours up the line, and 5's down, NT if misfit. Always bid out
your suits if you can.
Raise responder's suit with 4+ cards.
Jump in responder's suit shows 5+ cards and 16+ HCP.
Same suit shows 5-card+, and 16+ HCP.
Jump in same shows 6-card+, and 19+ HCP.
JNT shows 15-17 balanced, 2JNT shows 18-20 balanced.
JS shows 16+ HCP and a biddable suit by 4's and 5's.
Bidding a suit, then minimum NT shows a weaker 1-suiter.
4N over a suit is Blackwood. 4C over N is Gerber.
5-4's are hard to bid, especially in the 13-15 range, you really have
to hope responder calls the 4-card. With two 5-4 hands, you can't find
the 4-4 fit between them without lying about shape.
6-card suits without 8 quick tricks and 13-15 HCP are a menace, you
have to bid minimum NT, then rebid your suit at the cheapest level twice
and hope partner has the points to keep you bidding. Great hands often
missing game.
Strong three suiters are wonderfully easy to bid. Heh.
--
tussock
tussock
> Eric Leong wrote:
>
>> Is there a Standard Acol?
>
> From what I recall from ~10 years back in NZ ...
And resonably modernised, from my limited understanding.
1C 17+ HCP or any gf.
Weak 2D/H/S, single suited just under opening strength (9-11).
2N 20-21 balanced.
1N 11-13 balanced.
Balanced 14-16 or unbalanced Ro20 open longest suit.
Maybe Ro18 3rd and 4th seat, NV?
Prefer hearts, spades, then diamonds with no five-card.
Open higher of a two-suited hand.
Lighter openings all 'round, put the strong opening where it belongs
with a tighter opening range and modify the minor openings to suit. 2C
just shows clubs longest.
Responses over 1 of a suit are unchanged, as are opener's rebids,
except opener's jump raises and jump shifts are free to show light
distributional openings. Responder is still stuck with strong jump
shifts, but you could always use a strong 2/1 with it.
Kickback RKCB for slams.
--
tussock
vic...@iol.ie
>As a relative beginner playing Acol (4-card Majors,weak NT), I will be
>travelling to the US soon where I hope to play some Bridge.
>
>I'm wondering whether I will find SA much different from Acol and
>would like if I could have a brief explanation of the major
>differences between the two systems.
Phew ! Perhaps I'll just kibbitz when I'm over in the US !!
b.n.