Apportion the blame
Sam
System- 2/1GF. Playing Reverse Drury.
Partner pass as dealer, 2 passes to me, holding.
AKxxx
x
AKQx
Axx
p-(p)-1H-(p)
3H-(p)-4C-(p)
4H-ppp
Partner holds-
QJxx
AJxx
xxx
Kx
Playing reverse drury, I took 3H as weak bid, and not holding any Ace, and
not a limit raise with 4 prime trumps, but just long trumps, with nothing
else much. I felt that 4NT won't elicit any K card, judging from the 3H bid,
but hoped for a 5C bid from partner to show CK, if he had the K.
Please apportion the blame...
Sam
Chuck Lamprey
"Sam" <ste...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Cm5oc.17655$k24.13023@fed1read01...
Obviously, it helps to know what your bids mean. (I'm going to assume you
were bidding spades, not hearts).
I don't know why your partner would not use Drury if it is available, or why
he would sign off over 4C - this hand must be quite suitable opposite either
the actual hand or opposite a genuine 2-suiter. If you think the jump
raise is weak - something like Jxxx, Kxxx, x, Qxxx for example, obviously
you don't want to be any higher than 4S.
I give 50% to your partner, and the other 50% to the partnership for failure
to discuss its methods.
Chuck Lamprey
Rob Morris
you happy with your current meaning for 2NT in response to 1-major?
Partner's hand is the type which my partners tend to bid 2NT with
(support with 10-12 pts).
I've never played Drury (illegal in UK), but if it shows trump support
and 10+ pts, shouldn't your parnter start of with that bid?
--
Rob Morris
http://www.dur.ac.uk/bridge.club
Charles Leong
> I've never played Drury (illegal in UK), but if it shows trump support
> and 10+ pts, shouldn't your parnter start of with that bid?
where do you read that?
AFAICS, Drury is allowed at level 2 (!) by the following line:
12.3.6 Other permitted conventions:
forcing spade/notrump response (...)
support bids:
any call which shows support fro partner and the values for game opposite a
non-minimum oppening is allowed. this includes calls taht could
alternatively contain game values.
Lets see. Drury - (reverse or not) Pass - 1maj - 2C shows a maximum pass
(10-11) and trump suport. I think this is covered by the line above.
Charles
Sam
p-p-1S-p-3S-p-4C-p-4S-ppp.
"Rob Morris" <robert...@durham.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:c7qp2k$uru$1...@sirius.dur.ac.uk...
Rob Morris
(probably me). I thought that there was a common US convention along
these lines that was highly frowned upon in the UK, becuase it's too
easy to use it to field psyches, ergo illegal at level 3.
But that's just something I heard some time. Corrections/flames welcome.
DavJFlower
>> > System- 2/1GF. Playing Reverse Drury.
>> > Partner pass as dealer, 2 passes to me, holding.
>> > AKxxx
>> > x
>> > AKQx
>> > Axx
>> >
>> > p-(p)-1H-(p)
>> > 3H-(p)-4C-(p)
>> > 4H-ppp
>Sorry, spade is the trump...
>p-p-1S-p-3S-p-4C-p-4S-ppp.
>
>> >
>> > Partner holds-
>> > QJxx
>> > AJxx
>> > xxx
>> > Kx
>> >
>> > Playing reverse drury, I took 3H as weak bid, and not holding any Ace,
>and
>> > not a limit raise with 4 prime trumps, but just long trumps, with
>nothing
>> > else much. I felt that 4NT won't elicit any K card, judging from the 3H
>bid,
>> > but hoped for a 5C bid from partner to show CK, if he had the K.
>> > Please apportion the blame...
>> >
>> > Sam
OK Now I understand the bidding. Irrespective of the misunderstanding as to the
meaning of 3S, your partner has just about as good a hand as they possibly
could from their previous bidding, when they hear you bid 4C. Surely they can
bid 4H in their sleep.
If I understand reverse Drury, the implication is that you don't hold hearts ?
Dave Flower
Ron Johnson
Drury?, OK" is adequate discussion deserves this result.
--
RNJ
Bill Shutts
The Aces had a simple rule for apportioning blame for a
misunderstanding: 100% to the partnership.
Against one of my preemptive raises, you would be lucky to catch me with
QXXX of trumps and a singleton club. If you elect to agree to play 3H
preemptive, you should then discuss what 4C means (I prefer "I need help
in clubs, if this is your singleton then please bid strongly").
In the context of believing 3S was a limit raise, your partner had a
magnificent hand for slam after 4C (especially if your partner's first
cue bid is generally made in a long suit). AX or KX is a superb holding
in partner's cue bid suit, and he had a side ace and good trumps too. I
believe it is correct to bid 4H and try again with 5C if you sign off in
4S, but I am a conservative slam bidder and would not take issue with
simply driving to slam after the 4C try.
cheers,
Bill Shutts
San Diego, USA
DavJFlower
Dave Flower
Raija
Assume the AKxxx suit is meant to be hearts, not spades. Or else
auction was 1S-3S.
You did not know what 3M means here by a passed hand, which means
your partnership does not have an agreement on it. Make one.
Playing Drury, 3M can be either a passed hand that improved into a
near-gameforce because partner bid H (as here), or pre-emptive. 2M
would be any single raise and limit raise hands use Drury.
>
> Sam
>
>
Bill Shutts
David Stevenson has discussed this several times, and you should be able
to Google your answer.
I find the "field a psych" argument weak, even though it is true that
Drury was invented to limit the damage after a psych or semi-psych.
Originally, opener rebid 2D to show "less than a full" opening bid,
typically a semi-psychic lead director like AKQX XXX XXX XXX or worse.
But this soon evolved into signing off when you have no interest in game
opposite a balanced passed hand *even though you would have opened the
bidding in any position*. So I don't think you can field, unless you
fail to take an obvious action assuming a rule of 19 opener when the
opponents intervene.
Gordon Rainsford
> >
> Please can someone smack down either Charles or me, whoever's wrong
> (probably me). I thought that there was a common US convention along
> these lines that was highly frowned upon in the UK, becuase it's too
> easy to use it to field psyches, ergo illegal at level 3.
>
> But that's just something I heard some time. Corrections/flames welcome.
It's you who needs to be smacked down, Rob :)
Charles is correct.
Drury did use to be Level 4, but not since the current Orange Book first
came out six years ago. Bergen raises underwent a similar shift from
Level 4 to Level 2.
--
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
Robert Lipton
Sam wrote:
You were wrong.
Bob
Robert Lipton
Rob Morris wrote:
My partner and I play Drury-- Reverse Drury, as it happens. Even
opposite a 3rd-seat opener -- which can, of course, be very very weak --
we feel that playing a limit raise by the passed hand -- assuming four
trump, of course -- gives us a lot of safety and protection against the
opponents butting in late.
What is partner supposed to do with his and opposite a cuebid? I would
assume he is looking for the DA and bid 4H also.
Bob
Rob Morris
Thanks. I needed that :) Apologies for not Googling appropriately
before posting.
Chris Ryall
>> I've never played Drury (illegal in UK), but if it shows trump support
>> and 10+ pts, shouldn't your parnter start of with that bid?
>
>where do you read that? AFAICS, Drury is allowed at level 2 (!) by the
>following line:
>
>12.3.6 Other permitted conventions:
>any call which shows support fro partner and the values for game
>opposite a non-minimum oppening is allowed. this includes calls taht
>could alternatively contain game values.
>
>Lets see. Drury - (reverse or not) Pass - 1maj - 2C shows a maximum
>pass (10-11) and trump suport. I think this is covered by the line
>above. Charles
But Drury's not (quite) game forcing opposite a non minimum opening. And
our wise and learned regulators have not chosen to list Drury in the
(quite long) set of previous conventions covered generically.
Try level 3 ..
13.2.2 Other permitted conventions.
Support jumps:
Any jump bid which shows support for partner is allowed.
Power responses:
2C or 2D is an artificial game try
Note that 2C or 2D as an artificial game force is covered by 12.1.1.
This sounds more like it, as the purpose of Drury was to keep to the two
level, even after opening sub-minimum 3rd in hand opposite support.
.. but then Drury isn't mentioned in the list of things covered in this
section either! Quite surprising, given all the fuss there has been
about it over the years (was banned AFAIR). Meadows, Ritter and Bergen
are in there proudly, and I've barely heard of those!
Another classic Aylesbury duck a l'orange?
--
Chris Ryall Wirral-UK
("cut out" spamtrap to email me)
Gerben Dirksen
> System- 2/1GF. Playing Reverse Drury.
> Partner pass as dealer, 2 passes to me, holding.
> AKxxx
> x
> AKQx
> Axx
Okay so it was
p - 1S
3S - 4C
4S - p
> Partner holds-
> QJxx
> AJxx
> xxx
> Kx
Apportioning blame: Responder 110%, Opener -10%. Responder has an absolute
maximum pass which only improves after 4C. Does he think you bid it just for
fun? Opener is making a slam try! If this is not an accepting hand, what is?
I don't like 3S either. The whole point of Drury is to stay low if partner
opened subminimum values.
Gerben
Adam Beneschan
> I find the "field a psych" argument weak, even though it is true that
> Drury was invented to limit the damage after a psych or semi-psych.
> Originally, opener rebid 2D to show "less than a full" opening bid,
> typically a semi-psychic lead director like AKQX XXX XXX XXX or worse.
I like Eddie Kantar's explanation of why Drury was invented.
According to the explanation, Eric Murray used to open really light in
3rd seat, Doug Drury would make a limit raise, and the opponents would
double and collect 800. So Drury invented the Drury convention. Now,
Murray would open in 3rd seat, Drury would bid 2C, Murray would
inevitably bid 2D, Drury would sign off in 2 of their suit, the
opponents would still double, but now they'd only get 500.
-- Adam
Jerry6421
>> AKxxx
>> x
>> AKQx
>> Axx
>
>Okay so it was
>
>p - 1S
>3S - 4C
>4S - p
>
>> Partner holds-
>> QJxx
>> AJxx
>> xxx
>> Kx
The official meaning of a jump raise I think is a hand that solves only a trump
problem typically
a 5332 with 5 card support and a few trump honors but as pointed by all the
partnership has at least 50% of the blame., Unless Sam is an incredible
overbidder (we don't know that but his partner might)responders failure to bid
4h is both bizarre and very bad.
Andrew Gumperz
> System- 2/1GF. Playing Reverse Drury.
> Partner pass as dealer, 2 passes to me, holding.
> AKxxx
> x
> AKQx
> Axx
>
> p-(p) -1H-(p)
> 3H-(p)-4C-(p)
> 4H-ppp
>
> Partner holds-
> QJxx
> AJxx
> xxx
> Kx
>
> Playing reverse drury, I took 3H as weak bid, and not holding any Ace, and
> not a limit raise with 4 prime trumps, but just long trumps, with nothing
> else much.
Others have pointed out that you and partner need an agreement to
cover this auction (what is shown by a passed hand double raise).
> I felt that 4NT won't elicit any K card, judging from the 3H bid,
> but hoped for a 5C bid from partner to show CK, if he had the K.
> Please apportion the blame...
Responder made (he thought) a limit raise. Opener made a slam try with
4C. Of responder's 11 HCP, 10 are working. Responder is clearly worth
a cooperating slam move and was easily worth a 4H cuebid. If opener
signs off in 4S over 4H, responder should continue by cuebidding 5C!
Responder evaluated his cards very poorly.
* Opener gets 0% blame.
* Partnership gets 100% for bad agreements
* Responder gets 100% for bad hand evaluation.
Andrew
Chris Ryall
>* Opener gets 0% blame.
>* Partnership gets 100% for bad agreements
>* Responder gets 100% for bad hand evaluation.
The consistent inability of this group to add up to 100%, or more
commonly to 13 has been an endless source of fun :))
zog
I go with the majority here that pard must bid 4H. But there are a number
of styles here. One is to cue second round controls (has merit in space
saving). That is not so relevant here.
Another is 'Compulsory cue bids below game'. What this means is that after
your 4C, pard simply must bid 4H. It also means that you had to bid 4C.
This is great in this kind of hand. But some people play that if you cue
bid you are showing something extra. So in that kind of case pard may have
thought he had already shown his hand to full extent and might be promising
more. Having said that he can't have his cake and eat it too. If you are
playing the compuslory cue bid style then he had to bid 4H. If cues show
extra then he had to bid 4H because you had shown extra values and strarted
a cue bidding sequence.
One sequence could be
1S 3S
4C 4H
5D 6C
6D 7S
The 6C and 6D are both second round controls. Clearly you are interested in
7S (or you would bid 6S over 6C) so maybe pard with his excellent trumps
should bid 7S but he might be worried about the the 2nd round control of
hearts and may just bid 6S.
Sam
the spades? In the original hand cuebidding 4H is not a problem it is below
4S game. What if the hand were instead the following-
x
AKxxx
AKQx
Axx
AJxx
QJxx
xxx
Kx
p-(p)-1H-(p)
3H-(p)-4C-(p)
4S?
Would it still be correct for responder to cue bid 4S as this by passes 4H?
What would be the options there?
Sam
"zog" <no...@at.all> wrote in message
news:xBnoc.3919$XI4.1...@news.xtra.co.nz...
Bill Shutts
>For the sake of understanding cue-bidding, what if we reverse the hearts and
>the spades? In the original hand cuebidding 4H is not a problem it is below
>4S game. What if the hand were instead the following-
>x
>AKxxx
>AKQx
>Axx
>
>AJxx
>QJxx
>xxx
>Kx
>
>p-(p)-1H-(p)
>3H-(p)-4C-(p)
>4S?
>
>Would it still be correct for responder to cue bid 4S as this by passes 4H?
>What would be the options there?
>
>Sam
>
This is a matter of partnership philosophy and needs to be discussed in
some detail. My preferred philosophy is that one is free to bid above
game after partner has cue bid if they have a suitable hand, and need
not cue bid below game if their hand is junky for slam purposes. In
addition, I prefer to make my first cue bid where I have length and some
problem to resolve, so that having a fitting bolster is a slammish
holding. Thus, 4C is the ideal bid for me on opener's hand, as it shows
length and the desire for help there. KX or AX is superb combining with
AXX or AXXX or AQXX etc. In addition responder's hand has very good
slammish features elsewhere, an ace and good trumps. So this hand is
easily worth going beyond game when opener tries 4C; as I posted before,
I would not take issue for responder to drive to slam.
cheers
Gordon Rainsford
> For the sake of understanding cue-bidding, what if we reverse the hearts and
> the spades? In the original hand cuebidding 4H is not a problem it is below
> 4S game. What if the hand were instead the following-
> x
> AKxxx
> AKQx
> Axx
>
> AJxx
> QJxx
> xxx
> Kx
>
> p-(p)-1H-(p)
> 3H-(p)-4C-(p)
> 4S?
>
> Would it still be correct for responder to cue bid 4S as this by passes 4H?
I think so, yes. Your hand couldn't be much better, and partner has
invited slam in spite of knowing that you are a passed hand. The
important thing is to find out whether the diamonds are stopped, and
your 4S cue-bid would do just that.
> What would be the options there?
>
> Sam
Ashok
>
>IMP, none vul.
>System- 2/1GF. Playing Reverse Drury.
>Partner pass as dealer, 2 passes to me, holding.
>AKxxx
>x
>AKQx
>Axx
>
>p-(p)-1H-(p)
>3H-(p)-4C-(p)
>4H-ppp
>
>Partner holds-
>QJxx
>AJxx
>xxx
>Kx
>
>Playing reverse drury, I took 3H as weak bid, and not holding any Ace, and
>not a limit raise with 4 prime trumps, but just long trumps, with nothing
>but hoped for a 5C bid from partner to show CK, if he had the K.
>Please apportion the blame...
>
95% your partner. Whatever convention he has in mind, he should
cooperate in the slam explorationn by cue bidding after your 4C try.
5% yours. Why didn't you raise 3 to 6, to hell with conventions?
People often miss 7. So you'd be less unhappy.
Ashok
Ashok
As also the consistent inability of some to distinguish
between careless error and a telling point humourously and
knowingly made.
Ashok
Andrew Gumperz
> For the sake of understanding cue-bidding, what if we reverse the hearts and
> the spades? In the original hand cuebidding 4H is not a problem it is below
> 4S game. What if the hand were instead the following-
> x
> AKxxx
> AKQx
> Axx
>
> AJxx
> QJxx
> xxx
> Kx
>
> p-(p)-1H-(p)
> 3H-(p)-4C-(p)
> 4S?
>
> Would it still be correct for responder to cue bid 4S as this by passes 4H?
> What would be the options there?
>
> Sam
I would.
As I play it, the cuebid asks a question: is your hand suitable for
slam? The cuebid is not simply a mechanism to find controls. In this
case, the answer is unambiguous: Yes--this hand is very suitable for
slam. Therefore you must cooperate, so 4S it is.
The alternative is to use the cuebid purely as a mechanism to find
controls. Using that style you must bid 4H either on:
* AJxx, QJxx, xxx, Kx
* QJxx, KJxx, QJx, xx
After you sign off in 4H, partner will have to guess whether or not
your hand is suitable for a slam contract, with no information to go
on, other than that your cards do not include the DA.
In a partnership where both players know how to evaluate their hands,
the first cuebid style is very effective.
Andrew
Andrew Gumperz
Another interesting question is, if the hand were rearranged as below,
should opener's first cuebid be 4C or 4D?
S: AKxxx
H: x
D: Axx
C: AKQx
Most players are taught to cuebid their lowest ace first, but an
alternative is to make the cuebid that will help responder reevaluate
his hand. If you play the second style, then 4D is your best bid.
Andrew
Andrew Gumperz
> Andrew Gumperz wrote on "Apportion the blame"
> >* Opener gets 0% blame.
> >* Partnership gets 100% for bad agreements
> >* Responder gets 100% for bad hand evaluation.
>
> The consistent inability of this group to add up to 100%, or more
> commonly to 13 has been an endless source of fun :))
Americans lost the ability to count up to 100% after our sports
announcers and coaches started describing certain athletes as giving
"110%" or "200%".
A.
zog
sense way of not passing the game level (ie 4H in this hand) unless you can
under-write the 5-level. So the partnership must have extra values. Note
'the partnership'. So the 4S bidder on the hand you mention must NOT
cue-bid 4S unless either (1) his hand justifies going to the 5-level; or (2)
pard has shown extra values. So if you were playing Compulsory cue-bids
below game you probably would not cue-bid 4S because (and this depends on
the actual meaning of 3H) I would say you have already shown your values
with the 3H limit raise. It is a borderline case because you are top of the
range for 3H. So you would bid 4H that would deny the Ace of Diamonds. It
is then up to opener to make a further move. I think he can justify the
5-level and so the bidding might go 1H - 3H; 4C - 4H; 5D - 5S; 6D - 7H.
5D is the ace of Diamonds, 5S is now clear-cut and shows the Ace of Spades,
6D is interesting; it shows second round control of Diamonds but denies
second round control of Clubs. As previously it must show an interest in
the grand because with no interest in the grand he would just bid 6H. The
7H bid now takes quite a leap of faith by responder but given that opener is
more interested in the type of values he has rather than, say, his point
count, he has heaps of extra values. These are a second round control in
clubs (rather than QJ for example), his trumps are excellent (they could
have been as little as xxx if playing 5-card majors), finally the doubleton
club might prove useful. The good trumps swing it for me because they are
an undisclosed asset.
Now compare the situation if an intial cue-bid must show extra values. The
bidding might go: 1H - 3H; 4C - 4S; 5D - 5H; 5S - 6C; 6D ... 4C showed
a slam interest hand, ex hypothesi, 4S is first round control of spades, 5D
showed ace of diamonds. 5H (have to say not too sure about this - maybe he
should push on with 5C) 5S shows second round control of spades, 6C shows
second round control of clubs, 6D shows second round control of diamonds.
South is in a similar situation as before but has more information. He
knows of first and second round control of every suit and that opener is
interested in the grand (the 5S bid) but has not bid it himself. It is
likely that the trump sitution is the only cause for concern. I think there
is now a pretty strong case for shooting 7H.
I think the point of all this is quite a familiar one for bridge
partnerships: It is better to have an agreement (protocol, consensus,
whatever), even an inferior agreement, than no agreement at all.
"Sam" <ste...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:r0qoc.17827$k24.17305@fed1read01...
Frances Hinden
> Charles Leong wrote on "Apportion the blame"
> >> I've never played Drury (illegal in UK), but if it shows trump support
> >> and 10+ pts, shouldn't your parnter start of with that bid?
> >
> >where do you read that? AFAICS, Drury is allowed at level 2 (!) by the
> >following line:
> >
> >12.3.6 Other permitted conventions:
> >support bids:
> >any call which shows support fro partner and the values for game
> >opposite a non-minimum oppening is allowed. this includes calls taht
> >could alternatively contain game values.
> >
> >Lets see. Drury - (reverse or not) Pass - 1maj - 2C shows a maximum
> >pass (10-11) and trump suport. I think this is covered by the line
> >above. Charles
>
> But Drury's not (quite) game forcing opposite a non minimum opening. And
> our wise and learned regulators have not chosen to list Drury in the
> (quite long) set of previous conventions covered generically.
>
The Orange Book writers disagree with what "game forcing opposite a
non-minimum opening" means (or they disagree on the use of Drury).
<snip>
Have you tried reading the Orange Book online? The efficient use of
search leads you to this comment:
Examples of conventions covered by 12.3.4 and 12.3.6 (previously
Restricted Licence). [EB October 1998, p29]
Fit jumps (previously Fit-showing jumps) if showing values for a raise
SNAP
Drury
DavJFlower
>below game
Seems to me that playing compulsory cue-bids below game, opposite a partner who
has limited their hand, makes no sense.
Who would want to make a cue bid when they know values are insufficient for
slam ?
Dave Flower
Chris Ryall
>Have you tried reading the Orange Book online? The efficient use of
>search leads you to this comment:
>
>Examples of conventions covered by 12.3.4 and 12.3.6 (previously
>Restricted Licence). [EB October 1998, p29] Fit jumps (previously
>Fit-showing jumps) if showing values for a raise SNAP Drury
Thanks. I'd looked in levels 2 and 3 (which presently licence fit jumps,
Drury and SNAP) but didn't think to examine level 4. mea culpa /c
Chris Ryall
>>>* Partnership gets 100% for bad agreements
>>>* Responder gets 100% for bad hand evaluation.
>>The consistent inability of this group to add up to 100%, or more
>>commonly to 13 has been an endless source of fun :)) Chris Ryall
Ashok informed us
>As also the consistent inability of some to distinguish between
>careless error and a telling point humourously and knowingly made.
A telling and witty reply. While I had suspected Andrew might be
awarding 'exemplary' blame in this particular case, I did not make this
at all clear. :)
While Andrew Gumperz responded ..
>Americans lost the ability to count up to 100% after our sports
>announcers and coaches started describing certain athletes as giving
>"110%" or "200%".
We have (hopefully HAD) a few athletes like that too. :)))
Chris Ryall
I have always assumed the compulsion is only on the limit bidder, and
then only in response to a slam suggestion from the unlimited partner.
zog
particular hand I am assuming the 3H bid to be non-forcing. If opener was
not strong enough to try for slam then it would be a mistake to make the
cue-bid, as that would just be giving information to the opponents. You
would just bid 4H. There are other hand types where you are in a
game-forcing situation, trumps agreed & partner has room to have extras,
although you do not know. Playing the cumpulsory style you must make the
cue-bid if it does not raise the level of the final contract to which you
are committed. In that scenario you would most likely be saving space.
Incidentally, it is for that reason I have a preference, albeit mild, for
intial cue-bids to include second-round controls. Hmmm worth another
thread methinks.
"DavJFlower" <davjf...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040513091721...@mb-m01.aol.com...