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What does this bid mean? - Part2
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Mark
Jul 31, 2012, 4:06:03 AM7/31/12
to
Thanks for all the replies to the previous post.
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/rec.games.bridge/8qc1g62gFE0
Now comes the tricky part.
The auction at the table was as described...
1N-2D, (Point A)
2H-3N
4H-4S...
However, after the 2H bid, the 2D bidder (my partner) starts to say something about the auction (implying he's done something wrong). He then calls the Director. After a few words at the table, the Director take P aside, and then they come back. (Point B)
As suggested, the bidding then continues.
5C-5S
Oh dear! Under our system, Partner cannot have a spade singleton at this point, and he's already shown a spade control. Looking at my hand, I have the KS so he can't be cue bidding the second control. So, at this point, I know the wheels have come off and I pass. Result 5S-1.
As we all suspected, from the fuss around the 2D/2H bid, partner has got the transfer wrong.
At the table it was pretty clear (from the 2H bid onwards) that P had transferred to the wrong suit, but I felt that I had to bid honestly. Once he's bid the 4S, I don't feel that I can pass.
What are people's thoughts about my bidding.
Could I have passed 4S?
Was the pass of 5S legal / moral.
Thanks,
M.
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/rec.games.bridge/8qc1g62gFE0
Now comes the tricky part.
The auction at the table was as described...
1N-2D, (Point A)
2H-3N
4H-4S...
However, after the 2H bid, the 2D bidder (my partner) starts to say something about the auction (implying he's done something wrong). He then calls the Director. After a few words at the table, the Director take P aside, and then they come back. (Point B)
As suggested, the bidding then continues.
5C-5S
Oh dear! Under our system, Partner cannot have a spade singleton at this point, and he's already shown a spade control. Looking at my hand, I have the KS so he can't be cue bidding the second control. So, at this point, I know the wheels have come off and I pass. Result 5S-1.
As we all suspected, from the fuss around the 2D/2H bid, partner has got the transfer wrong.
At the table it was pretty clear (from the 2H bid onwards) that P had transferred to the wrong suit, but I felt that I had to bid honestly. Once he's bid the 4S, I don't feel that I can pass.
What are people's thoughts about my bidding.
Could I have passed 4S?
Was the pass of 5S legal / moral.
Thanks,
M.
Dave Flower
Jul 31, 2012, 5:04:04 AM7/31/12
to
On Tuesday, 31 July 2012 09:06:03 UTC+1, Mark wrote:
> Thanks for all the replies to the previous post. https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/rec.games.bridge/8qc1g62gFE0 Now comes the tricky part. The auction at the table was as described... 1N-2D, (Point A) 2H-3N 4H-4S... However, after the 2H bid, the 2D bidder (my partner) starts to say something about the auction (implying he's done something wrong). He then calls the Director. After a few words at the table, the Director take P aside, and then they come back. (Point B) As suggested, the bidding then continues. 5C-5S Oh dear! Under our system, Partner cannot have a spade singleton at this point, and he's already shown a spade control. Looking at my hand, I have the KS so he can't be cue bidding the second control. So, at this point, I know the wheels have come off and I pass. Result 5S-1. As we all suspected, from the fuss around the 2D/2H bid, partner has got the transfer wrong. At the table it was pretty clear (from the 2H bid onwards) that P had transferred to the wrong suit, but I felt that I had to bid honestly. Once he's bid the 4S, I don't feel that I can pass. What are people's thoughts about my bidding. Could I have passed 4S? Was the pass of 5S legal / moral. Thanks, M.
Certainly, you could not have passed 4S.
> Thanks for all the replies to the previous post. https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/rec.games.bridge/8qc1g62gFE0 Now comes the tricky part. The auction at the table was as described... 1N-2D, (Point A) 2H-3N 4H-4S... However, after the 2H bid, the 2D bidder (my partner) starts to say something about the auction (implying he's done something wrong). He then calls the Director. After a few words at the table, the Director take P aside, and then they come back. (Point B) As suggested, the bidding then continues. 5C-5S Oh dear! Under our system, Partner cannot have a spade singleton at this point, and he's already shown a spade control. Looking at my hand, I have the KS so he can't be cue bidding the second control. So, at this point, I know the wheels have come off and I pass. Result 5S-1. As we all suspected, from the fuss around the 2D/2H bid, partner has got the transfer wrong. At the table it was pretty clear (from the 2H bid onwards) that P had transferred to the wrong suit, but I felt that I had to bid honestly. Once he's bid the 4S, I don't feel that I can pass. What are people's thoughts about my bidding. Could I have passed 4S? Was the pass of 5S legal / moral. Thanks, M.
The 5S bid makes no sense - partner cannot be making a grand slam try, as 3NT was not forcing. I'm not sure about your pass of 5S, possible just allow it, but happy to go along with the majority.
Finally, firstly, partner should have kept quiet about his mistake, and then passed 4H. Maybe his LHO would double, and now 4S would be, I think, undoubtedly to play.
Dave Flower
Bertel Lund Hansen
Jul 31, 2012, 6:52:53 AM7/31/12
to
Mark skrev:
> Now comes the tricky part.
> The auction at the table was as described...
> 1N-2D, (Point A)
> 2H-3N
> 4H-4S...
> However, after the 2H bid, the 2D bidder (my partner) starts to
> say something about the auction (implying he's done something
> wrong). He then calls the Director. After a few words at the
> table, the Director take P aside, and then they come back.
> (Point B)
Without making too much fuss about it, I (as a TD) would instruct
your partner to keep quiet if something similar should happen
again. I do understand, however, that he may not be aware of his
options in the situation (none actually).
> At the table it was pretty clear (from the 2H bid onwards) that
> P had transferred to the wrong suit, but I felt that I had to
> bid honestly. Once he's bid the 4S, I don't feel that I can
> pass.
> What are people's thoughts about my bidding.
I think you did well. You avoided calls that could
demonstrably ... and so on.
> Could I have passed 4S?
I did not comment the bidding in the first thread since I do not
feel that I am at the level of many players in this group as far
as bidding/playing is concerned. But now you have turned to legal
aspects.
I found the 4S bid pretty strange, but in view of the UI I do not
think that it would be legal to pass.
> Was the pass of 5S legal / moral.
Yes, now there cannot be much doubt about partner's mistake. As
Dave Flower noted, going for slam after having signed off in 3NT
makes no sense.
I wonder if a case could be made for passing 4S for the same
reason. I will check it out.
--
Bertel, Denmark
http://bridge.lundhansen.dk/
> Now comes the tricky part.
> The auction at the table was as described...
> 1N-2D, (Point A)
> 2H-3N
> 4H-4S...
> However, after the 2H bid, the 2D bidder (my partner) starts to
> say something about the auction (implying he's done something
> wrong). He then calls the Director. After a few words at the
> table, the Director take P aside, and then they come back.
> (Point B)
your partner to keep quiet if something similar should happen
again. I do understand, however, that he may not be aware of his
options in the situation (none actually).
> At the table it was pretty clear (from the 2H bid onwards) that
> P had transferred to the wrong suit, but I felt that I had to
> bid honestly. Once he's bid the 4S, I don't feel that I can
> pass.
> What are people's thoughts about my bidding.
demonstrably ... and so on.
> Could I have passed 4S?
feel that I am at the level of many players in this group as far
as bidding/playing is concerned. But now you have turned to legal
aspects.
I found the 4S bid pretty strange, but in view of the UI I do not
think that it would be legal to pass.
> Was the pass of 5S legal / moral.
Dave Flower noted, going for slam after having signed off in 3NT
makes no sense.
I wonder if a case could be made for passing 4S for the same
reason. I will check it out.
--
Bertel, Denmark
http://bridge.lundhansen.dk/
Fred.
Jul 31, 2012, 7:02:43 AM7/31/12
to
3NT and then be trying for a grand slam. Your cue bidding
agreements are not necessary for this conclusion.
Fred.
Fred.
Jul 31, 2012, 7:09:34 AM7/31/12
to
after the director call.
Fred.
Bertel Lund Hansen
Jul 31, 2012, 9:35:20 AM7/31/12
to
Mark skrev:
> Now comes the tricky part.
> The auction at the table was as described...
> 1N-2D, (Point A)
Which bids are available to North after 2D?
I assume that 1NT shows 12-14 p.
The fatcs are relevant for a discussion about a (legal) pass
after 4S.
> Now comes the tricky part.
> The auction at the table was as described...
> 1N-2D, (Point A)
I assume that 1NT shows 12-14 p.
The fatcs are relevant for a discussion about a (legal) pass
after 4S.
Co Wiersma
Jul 31, 2012, 10:43:59 AM7/31/12
to
Op 31-7-2012 12:52, Bertel Lund Hansen schreef:
fit , and make a slamtry after a fit is revealed.
Obvious a grand slamtry is out of the question in this sequence.
Co Wiersma
> Yes, now there cannot be much doubt about partner's mistake. As
> Dave Flower noted, going for slam after having signed off in 3NT
> makes no sense.
>
> I wonder if a case could be made for passing 4S for the same
> reason. I will check it out.
It seems perfectly normal to me, to want to be in 3NT without a known
> Dave Flower noted, going for slam after having signed off in 3NT
> makes no sense.
>
> I wonder if a case could be made for passing 4S for the same
> reason. I will check it out.
fit , and make a slamtry after a fit is revealed.
Obvious a grand slamtry is out of the question in this sequence.
Co Wiersma
Paul Hightower
Jul 31, 2012, 10:59:39 AM7/31/12
to
"Mark" <mark.p...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:194209ad-05f4-4d25...@googlegroups.com...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You certainly attempted to bid ethically. 4S could plausibly have been a
slam try, so you did not pass; 5S cannot plausibly be a grand slam try or
anything else sensible I can think of. As an opponent I would feel like
driving yourself to the five level was damage enough.
news:194209ad-05f4-4d25...@googlegroups.com...
You certainly attempted to bid ethically. 4S could plausibly have been a
slam try, so you did not pass; 5S cannot plausibly be a grand slam try or
anything else sensible I can think of. As an opponent I would feel like
driving yourself to the five level was damage enough.
derek
Jul 31, 2012, 11:16:32 AM7/31/12
to
On Tuesday, July 31, 2012 5:06:03 AM UTC-3, Mark wrote:
>
>
> What are people's thoughts about my bidding.
> Could I have passed 4S?
Absolutely not. You've had an auction agreeing on hearts - 4S has to be forward going, no matter what it should specifically show in your system.
>
>
> What are people's thoughts about my bidding.
> Could I have passed 4S?
> Was the pass of 5S legal / moral.
Bertel Lund Hansen
Jul 31, 2012, 11:29:04 AM7/31/12
to
derek skrev:
> Harder to say, but you are permitted to work out _from the
> bidding_ that he must really want to play in spades. I'd be
> tempted to let you score 5S-1 (which should be a bad result
> anyway) - and then assess a procedural penalty against your
> partner,
If that deserves a PP, I tremble at the thought of how you will
deal with serious violations of the law.
> Harder to say, but you are permitted to work out _from the
> bidding_ that he must really want to play in spades. I'd be
> tempted to let you score 5S-1 (which should be a bad result
> anyway) - and then assess a procedural penalty against your
> partner,
deal with serious violations of the law.
Lorne
Jul 31, 2012, 11:54:13 AM7/31/12
to
singleton ace was not possible.
You did not comment on 3N but you can't pass that either with the hand
you had.
derek
Jul 31, 2012, 12:09:43 PM7/31/12
to
On Tuesday, July 31, 2012 12:29:04 PM UTC-3, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> If that deserves a PP, I tremble at the thought of how you will
> deal with serious violations of the law.
I did say "tempted", but frankly I _do_ consider this a pretty serious violation.
> If that deserves a PP, I tremble at the thought of how you will
> deal with serious violations of the law.
Barry Margolin
Jul 31, 2012, 12:47:44 PM7/31/12
to
In article <7be43582-14de-4a14...@googlegroups.com>,
Calling the director when you're not sure what your rights and
obligations are? Hardly.
--
Barry Margolin
Arlington, MA
obligations are? Hardly.
--
Barry Margolin
Arlington, MA
Adam Beneschan
Jul 31, 2012, 1:37:08 PM7/31/12
to
On Tuesday, July 31, 2012 9:47:44 AM UTC-7, Barry Margolin wrote:
> > I did say "tempted", but frankly I _do_ consider this a pretty serious
> > violation.
>
> Calling the director when you're not sure what your rights and
> obligations are? Hardly.
My impression is that it wasn't the director call that caused the problem, it's what the player said before calling the director. "the 2D bidder (my partner) starts to say something about the auction (implying he's done something wrong). He then calls the Director..."
> > I did say "tempted", but frankly I _do_ consider this a pretty serious
> > violation.
>
> Calling the director when you're not sure what your rights and
> obligations are? Hardly.
-- Adam
derek
Jul 31, 2012, 1:31:49 PM7/31/12
to
Bertel Lund Hansen
Jul 31, 2012, 4:03:34 PM7/31/12
to
derek skrev:
> Look, I do support calling the director when you don't know
> your rights, but you have to know that this is going to cause
> pretty serious issues for your partner,
Many (other) legal actions cause UI problems.
> and you _should_ know that once your partner has bid you don't
> get a chance to take it back.
I wouldn't say so - unless everyone should know the complete law
which of course would be wonderful. In my local club people have
no idea what their rights are.
> And I _did_ only say "tempted". Once I'd warned him not to do
> that, I certainly would impose a PP if I found it happening
> again.
I certainly wouldn't if he is the kind of player that I suspect.
A warning the second time should suffice.
> Look, I do support calling the director when you don't know
> your rights, but you have to know that this is going to cause
> pretty serious issues for your partner,
> and you _should_ know that once your partner has bid you don't
> get a chance to take it back.
which of course would be wonderful. In my local club people have
no idea what their rights are.
> And I _did_ only say "tempted". Once I'd warned him not to do
> that, I certainly would impose a PP if I found it happening
> again.
A warning the second time should suffice.
Barry Margolin
Jul 31, 2012, 4:40:52 PM7/31/12
to
In article <7df23ca6-4adc-4f51...@googlegroups.com>,
"start to" seems important -- he caught himself before he actually said
anything, and called the director to resolve it.
It's human nature to react when something surprising happens. It would
be ideal if players could maintain a perfect poker face in an incident
like this, but realistically we should be satisfied if the player avoids
saying anything explicit.
I still remember playing in the NABC+ Fast Pairs a number of years ago
(when I was still a flight C player) with a partner I'd picked up a day
or two earlier. At some point I made a bid, my partner alerted it and
explained it as some convention I'd never even heard of. Not being very
experienced in these matters at the time, I blurted out something like
"What!?".
So I have some sympathy for the player, and would not think of
penalizing him if he stopped himself before saying anything.
anything, and called the director to resolve it.
It's human nature to react when something surprising happens. It would
be ideal if players could maintain a perfect poker face in an incident
like this, but realistically we should be satisfied if the player avoids
saying anything explicit.
I still remember playing in the NABC+ Fast Pairs a number of years ago
(when I was still a flight C player) with a partner I'd picked up a day
or two earlier. At some point I made a bid, my partner alerted it and
explained it as some convention I'd never even heard of. Not being very
experienced in these matters at the time, I blurted out something like
"What!?".
So I have some sympathy for the player, and would not think of
penalizing him if he stopped himself before saying anything.
David Stevenson
Jul 31, 2012, 6:46:12 PM7/31/12
to
Mark wrote
To pass 5S is illegal, immoral, and going to encourage your fool of a
partner to do more stupid things in future. 5S is a grand slam try, and
while it is not likely he has a suitable hand in view of his 3NT bid you
have only got UI to tell you he has gone wrong. Are you allowed to use
unauthorised information legally? Of course not. Are you allowed to
use it morally? Of course not? Play ot the rules and let partner learn
the hard way to do the same.
In case you have missed the point, if he had sat there looking benign,
not said anything untoward, not done anything untoward, not spoken ot
the TD, and not done all the other idiocies, but had just bid you would
be allowed to guess to pass 5S [or even 4S]. So it is completely and
utterly his fault, not just because of the initial mistake - everyone
makes mistakes - but because of his antics thereafter. Do not illegally
allow for him.
--
David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways
Liverpool, England, UK bluejak on BBO Mbl: +44 7778 409 955
<webj...@googlemail.com> EBL TD Tel: +44 151 677 7412
bluejak666 on Skype Bridgepage: http://blakjak.org/brg_menu.htm
partner to do more stupid things in future. 5S is a grand slam try, and
while it is not likely he has a suitable hand in view of his 3NT bid you
have only got UI to tell you he has gone wrong. Are you allowed to use
unauthorised information legally? Of course not. Are you allowed to
use it morally? Of course not? Play ot the rules and let partner learn
the hard way to do the same.
In case you have missed the point, if he had sat there looking benign,
not said anything untoward, not done anything untoward, not spoken ot
the TD, and not done all the other idiocies, but had just bid you would
be allowed to guess to pass 5S [or even 4S]. So it is completely and
utterly his fault, not just because of the initial mistake - everyone
makes mistakes - but because of his antics thereafter. Do not illegally
allow for him.
--
David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways
Liverpool, England, UK bluejak on BBO Mbl: +44 7778 409 955
<webj...@googlemail.com> EBL TD Tel: +44 151 677 7412
bluejak666 on Skype Bridgepage: http://blakjak.org/brg_menu.htm
Mark Brader
Aug 2, 2012, 5:03:41 PM8/2/12
to
Mark Sheedy:
I'm surprised nobody has asked... in what jurisdiction was this game,
and what alerts or announcements were made? This obviously might affect
any UI situation.
--
Mark Brader "Inventions reached their limit long ago,
Toronto and I see no hope for further development."
m...@vex.net -- Julius Frontinus, 1st century A.D.
> The auction at the table was as described...
> 1N-2D, (Point A)
> 2H-3N
> 4H-4S...
>
> However, after the 2H bid, the 2D bidder (my partner) starts to say
> something about the auction (implying he's done something wrong). He
> then calls the Director....
> 1N-2D, (Point A)
> 2H-3N
> 4H-4S...
>
> However, after the 2H bid, the 2D bidder (my partner) starts to say
> something about the auction (implying he's done something wrong). He
I'm surprised nobody has asked... in what jurisdiction was this game,
and what alerts or announcements were made? This obviously might affect
any UI situation.
--
Mark Brader "Inventions reached their limit long ago,
Toronto and I see no hope for further development."
m...@vex.net -- Julius Frontinus, 1st century A.D.
mc110...@gmail.com
Aug 3, 2012, 7:39:45 PM8/3/12
to David Stevenson
Christopher Monsour
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