1NT:3C Puppet
David Babcock
but I wonder whether there are reasons for choosing one or the other
when either one would work (for example, one or both four-card majors
in a 4-4-3-2, 10-14 HCP). Perhaps someone has come up with something
systematic on this?
David
Rich
I play 3C puppet as you describe. We use puppet any time we have a 3
card major.
Rich Regan
Carl
I am looking at playing 1NT-2C as weak (Garbage) and invitational, and
1NT-3C for all game going hands. We open 1NT with a 5-card major
wherever we can.
After 1NT - 3C:
3D = no 5-card major but 1 or both 4-card majors. Partner bids Smolen-
style, 4C if he has both 4-card majors.
3H/S = 5-card major
3N = no 4 or 5 card major.
Carl
Vox
2NT is better, invitations are mostly a waste of time. Your partner
won't know what to do anyways, a total waste of bidding room. Many
invitational sequences are obsolete, unneeded.
Boris
Douglas Newlands
Yes, opposite a 15-17 NY, always pass or bid weakly with 8 and always
go to game with 9, seems to work fine.
The numbers are not hard as you can always revalue sensibly.
I am more than happy with this at real bridge, perhaps it's a little
aggressive for pairs.
If you don't like that, what are you going to to?
Pass with 8, invite with 9 and FG with 10? Does that seem much more
sensible? It only gives you a chance to bet on hands making 8 tricks and
not 7 or 9.
Doug,
Tasmania
David Babcock
wrote:
> Vox wrote:
> > 2NT is better, invitations are mostly a waste of time. Your partner
> > won't know what to do anyways, a total waste of bidding room. Many
> > invitational sequences are obsolete, unneeded.
>
> Yes, opposite a 15-17 NY, always pass or bid weakly with 8 and always
> go to game with 9, seems to work fine.
> The numbers are not hard as you can always revalue sensibly.
>
> I am more than happy with this at real bridge, perhaps it's a little
> aggressive for pairs.
Yes, it's a little aggressive at pairs, but there is an offsetting
plus: if you blast 3NT on 9, opening leader isn't alerted that your
side has nothing extra, as he is when you bid 2NT whether partner
accepts or not.
> If you don't like that, what are you going to to?
> Pass with 8, invite with 9 and FG with 10? Does that seem much more
> sensible? It only gives you a chance to bet on hands making 8 tricks and
> not 7 or 9.
and that bet pays nothing when the hand makes 8 tricks anyway. I'm
fine with 2NT being something other than invitational, but using it as
Puppet isn't the only alternative; 2NT already has another job to do
for pard and me, which is why I asked about the 3C option
specifically.
I'm hoping for more comments on nuances when game-strength hands are
bid with regular Stayman or with Puppet. For example, 4=2=4=3 and 12
HCP can be bid with either device, ending in 4S if opener has four
spades and 3NT otherwise, so is there a basis for picking one over the
other? If you use Puppet, partner has the knowledge that you don't
have a garbage hand (as a previous poster noted) -- though the Smolen
hand still has to be bid with 2C unless you are gimmicking-up your
Puppet -- but maybe there are other uses for the difference as well --
perhaps one could suggest four clubs and the other suggest four
diamonds ??? (I have given that one about two seconds' thought, so
don't beat me up too bad on it)
David
sawdust
This said by someone who only plays with individuals
who are NOT truly partners. Effectively, Boris has so
little trust for his "partners" that he will not include that
person in any decisions that are made.
John
Vox
And you know me very well, don't you?
lol
sawdust
> I'm hoping for more comments on nuances when game-strength hands are
> bid with regular Stayman or with Puppet. For example, 4=2=4=3 and 12
> HCP can be bid with either device, ending in 4S if opener has four
> spades and 3NT otherwise, so is there a basis for picking one over the
> other? If you use Puppet, partner has the knowledge that you don't
> have a garbage hand (as a previous poster noted) -- though the Smolen
> hand still has to be bid with 2C unless you are gimmicking-up your
> Puppet -- but maybe there are other uses for the difference as well --
> perhaps one could suggest four clubs and the other suggest four
> diamonds ??? (I have given that one about two seconds' thought, so
> don't beat me up too bad on it)
>
> David
We did try adding Smolen to puppet sequences
for a while, but only those that started with 2C
as puppet. We dropped those sequences after a
while.
I do use 3C as puppet now with one partner,
though a much better puppet version (IMHO)
than the standard one. The standard puppet
sequences tell far too much about the closed
hand to the defense. The problem with standard
puppet sequences is when the bidding goes
either 1NT-3C-3NT (to deny ANY 5 or 4 card
major in the closed hand) or 1NT-3C-3D (which
guarantees a 4 card major.) In either event, this
tells far too much about the closed hand to the
defense. I've seen hands that were defended
virtually double dummy after one of those
sequences.
If you are using 2C as Stayman too, I see no
reason to use a 3C puppet on 4-4 major suit
hands. (We do use our 3C puppet version over
most 2NT sequences though.) I'd use puppet
on hands with 4-3 or 3-4 in the majors, but never
on 4333 shapes.
On a game forcing hand with 1-3-4-5 shape, you
might want to use a version that allows you to
show that hand type, while still investigating for
a potential heart fit. This would probably need to
be forcing to as far as 4NT on some sequences
though to get all the hand types in. For example,
after 1NT-3C, which nominally asks for a 3 card
major:
3M = shows a 5 card major
3M-4C = your favorite version of Roman keycard
blackwood in the major.
3M - 4NT = invites 6NT, but with no fit for the major
3D = no 5 card major, says nothing about any
4 card majors
3D - 3H = Denies a 4 card heart suit, but MAY
have 4 spades. Opener replies either 3S or 3NT,
depending on their hand.
3D - 3S = Denies 4 cards in spades, but definitely
shows 4 hearts.
3D - 3NT = both 4 card majors, without slam
interest, since 3NT is passable.
3D - 4C = Show hand shapes like 3361 or 3316 with
this bid. That is, a hand that wanted to look for a
5-3 major suit fit, but now shows serious length in
an unspecified minor when that did not materialize.
3D - 4D = both 4 card majors, but with slam interest.
This is forcing to at least 4NT.
3D - 4H = mss, with clubs at least as long as
diamonds. Forcing to at least 4NT or 5m, which
are passable.
3D - 4S = MSS, but with longer diamonds. Also
forcing to 4NT or 5m.
3D - 4NT = general invitation to 6NT.
Finally, a risk of a puppet sequence is it offers up
too many bids that are non-suits to the defense as
potential lead directing cue bids, or as possible
suits to sacrifice in. So you need to decide if the
occasional gain is worth that risk.
John
Derek Broughton
> On Aug 6, 7:39 pm, David Babcock <d...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>> Playing 1NT:3C as Puppet (along with regular Stayman) has some appeal,
>> but I wonder whether there are reasons for choosing one or the other
>> when either one would work (for example, one or both four-card majors
>> in a 4-4-3-2, 10-14 HCP). Perhaps someone has come up with something
>> systematic on this?
>
> I play 3C puppet as you describe. We use puppet any time we have a 3
> card major.
We play 3C as game-forcing, and 2C as invitational. We'll use puppet any
time we have a 3 or 4 card major (and no 5-card major). With a 5 card major
we always transfer.
--
derek
KWSchneider
Could you provide more detail on your no-trump structure? For example,
for what you use the 2S and 2N bids? Also, how does your 2C auction
differ from your 3C version?
Finally, what is the benefit of using 2N as GF Puppet? [it does
eliminate the art 3C bid from being doubled as a lead director]. I
assume that it allows a 3C bid to deny any majors - and a 3D bid to
show a 4card major? Not efficient in my opinion.
Or better yet, it would allow responder the ability to transfer to his
own 5cM after opener denies having one of his own by bidding 3C.
Cheers,
Kurt
rubberduck
We play...2C as four card stayman and a subsequent rebid of 3D asking
for extra info about major length (so combined stayman and puppet)
So 1N - 2C - 2H - 3C rebid 3H with 5H and bid 3S with 44 in the
majors and 3N with any other shape
likewise...1N - 2C - 2S - 3C rebid 3S with 5 spades
Finally...1N-2C -2D-3D asks for 3 card majors
You could make the responses to 3D more descriptive but the idea is
just to focus on major length - all info comes at a price
if you want more info about partners shape you rebid 3C which is a
minor suit ask
1N - 2C - 2H - 3C is a minor ask (3D - denies a 4 or 5 card minor, 3H
- 4C and 4H; 3S -4D and 4H and 3N is always a 3433 hand shape)
1N - 2C - 2S - 3C now 3D denies a 4 or 5 card minor, 3H - 4C and 4S;
3S - 4D and 4S and 3N is the 4333 hand shape
Finally..1N - 2C - 2D - 3C asks for 5 card minors so 3D - no 5 card
minor so must be 44 minors, 3H - 5clubs and 3S - 5 diamonds and 3N -
3343 or 3334 shape
Easy to learn, easy to play
Rubber
rubberduck
> So 1N - 2C - 2H - 3C rebid 3H with 5H and bid 3S with 44 in the
> majors and 3N with any other shape
> likewise...1N - 2C - 2S - 3C rebid 3S with 5 spades
> Finally...1N-2C -2D-3D asks for 3 card majors
>
Typed these both wrong...easy to play..but hard to type
1N - 2C - 2H - 3D asks if the heart suit was 5 cards or if partner
holds 4 spades (not 3C)
and 1N - 2C - 2S - 3D asks if the spade suit was 5 cards (not 3C)
But the last bit was right
Derek Broughton
> On Aug 7, 8:10 am, Derek Broughton <de...@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
>> Rich wrote:
>> > On Aug 6, 7:39 pm, David Babcock <d...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>> >> Playing 1NT:3C as Puppet (along with regular Stayman) has some appeal,
>> >> but I wonder whether there are reasons for choosing one or the other
>> >> when either one would work (for example, one or both four-card majors
>> >> in a 4-4-3-2, 10-14 HCP). Perhaps someone has come up with something
>> >> systematic on this?
>>
>> > I play 3C puppet as you describe. We use puppet any time we have a 3
>> > card major.
>>
>> We play 3C as game-forcing, and 2C as invitational. We'll use puppet any
>> time we have a 3 or 4 card major (and no 5-card major). With a 5 card
>> major we always transfer.
>
> Could you provide more detail on your no-trump structure? For example,
> for what you use the 2S and 2N bids? Also, how does your 2C auction
> differ from your 3C version?
4-suit transfers, so 2S is a (weak) transfer to clubs, 2N is a transfer to
diamonds. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "how does [it] differ". 3C,
showing 10+ points and at least a 3-card major, is going to end in either 3N
or 4M. 2C, showing <10 points, could end up anywhere, depending on how weak
2C is and what opener shows.
>
> Finally, what is the benefit of using 2N as GF Puppet? [it does
> eliminate the art 3C bid from being doubled as a lead director].
and loses the transfer to diamonds. I have no idea if that really matters,
but I'm more comfortable with it.
> I
> assume that it allows a 3C bid to deny any majors - and a 3D bid to
> show a 4card major? Not efficient in my opinion.
>
> Or better yet, it would allow responder the ability to transfer to his
> own 5cM after opener denies having one of his own by bidding 3C.
>
> Cheers,
> Kurt
--
derek
agumperz
1NT-3C (Puppet Stayman) is better when responder is balanced and holds
at most one 4-card major. Puppet Stayman can conceal opener's shape
while doing checking for the major fit. Of course in order to do this,
you need to arrange your puppet responses to conceal opener's shape.
1NT-3C
3D = 0 or 1 4-card major
3M = 5-card major
3NT = 4-4 in the majors
Regular Stayman is better in two cases:
1. Responder has a second suit to bid. For example, QJxx, x, Jxx,
AQTxx, since you can ask for majors and then show your second suit at
the 3-level.
2. Responder has 4-4 or longer in the majors. When responder is 4-4 in
the majors, he can't guarantee to find any 4-4 major fit by going thru
puppet using the responding scheme above.
Andrew
vincit
Yes you are absolutely right
Suppose 2NT is Puppet (Meckwell), you've got an additional "space"
How would you structure it ?
cheers
vincit
sawdust
> On Aug 6, 4:39 pm, David Babcock <d...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> > Playing 1NT:3C as Puppet (along with regular Stayman) has some appeal,
> > but I wonder whether there are reasons for choosing one or the other
> > when either one would work (for example, one or both four-card majors
> > in a 4-4-3-2, 10-14 HCP). Perhaps someone has come up with something
> > systematic on this?
>
> > David
>
> 1NT-3C (Puppet Stayman) is better when responder is balanced and holds
> at most one 4-card major. Puppet Stayman can conceal opener's shape
> while doing checking for the major fit. Of course in order to do this,
> you need to arrange your puppet responses to conceal opener's shape.
> 1NT-3C
> 3D = 0 or 1 4-card major
> 3M = 5-card major
> 3NT = 4-4 in the majors
While better than the traditional puppet versions, I'll argue
that this also shows more about openers shape than is
necessary. The version that I showed allows opener to
show even less of their shape. Only responder need ever
show their shape, and since their hand will be dummy, it
gives less away. I like to call it denial puppet, since
1NT-3C-3D-3H = I deny holding 4 hearts, but I MAY hold
4 spades.
1NT-3C-3D-3S = I deny holding 4 spades, but I guarantee
a 4 card heart suit.
Opener says as little as possible about his hand on these
sequences, except to assert or deny a fit with a suit that
responder shows.
John
sawdust
1NT-2NT = puppet
1NT-2NT-(3H or 3S) = shows a 5 card major
1NT-2NT-3C = denies a 5 card major, may or may not
hold 0, 1, or both 4 card majors
...-3D = I have 4 hearts, but absolutely denies 4 spades
...-3H = I have 4 spades, but absolutely denies 4 hearts
...-3NT = I have 4 cards in both majors. Nonforcing.
So responder shows his hand. Since it will be dummy,
this gives as little as possible away past the opening
lead.
There is one missing bid in that list. 3S. Use the
sequence:
1NT-2NT-3C-3S
to say, partner, bid 3NT. I may have a hand that only
went through puppet, perhaps with 3-3 in the majors, to
find out if we had a 5-3 fit in a major suit. In this case,
I will pass 3NT. Or, I may have a hand with minor suit
length, that I will now describe. Or, I may have a slamish
hand with both majors.
You now have additional bidding space. Define sequences
to include hands with 6 card minors and slam interest, that
also had a 3 card major. So after partner denies a fit in
the major, you can still investigate for slam in the minor.
Thus perhaps
1NT-2NT-3C-4C = Roman keycard blackwood for clubs
1NT-2NT-3C-4D = Roman keycard blackwood for diamonds
Other sequences can show the slam going or slam invitational
hands with both majors. Also put in the minor suit stayman
hands. There is much room.
John
KWSchneider
Like you, I'm very cognizant of offering ANY info on opener's hand.
Our no-trump response treatment is a little unusual:
2C - 5 crd stayman - shows 3 or 5 cM [invitational]
2R - transfer with 4+M [weak->SI]
2S - Range ask
2N - xfer to clubs [weak->SI]
3C - xfer to diamonds [weak->SI]
3D - invitational 5H4S
1)responder can invite with this sequence show 4M4mxx -1N 2R 2M 2N
[opener super-accepts when he has 4M - we use a "ladder" of super-
acceptance to ensure that we do not pass 3M with an opener with 4M and
a weak opening]
2) he can invite with 44M - 1N 2D 2H 2S [allows playing at 2-level at
the expense of exposing shape for ultimate declarer]. Note: We tried
1N 2D 2S as showing 4-5S in opener to insure that opener was declarer,
but we had too many "false positives" where we ended up in 2N/3N and
defense was now aware of 4-5s in opener.
3) he can invite with 5M - 1N 2C 2D 2M
4) he can invite+ with both majors [any combination of 45+] - 1N 2C 2D
2N
a) opener bids 3M/4M if he has 4cM
b) otherwise opener "puppets" 3C
i) after 3C, responder bids 3D [->3H] to show 5h4s, 3H [-
>3S] to show 4+h5s. Opener sets the contract. Responder can correct to
game or make slam advances. Responder never becomes declarer in no-
trump or a major.
As you can imagine, there are a legion of sequences starting with 2C
or 2R followed by 3m that portray different holdings for responder. In
each case, responder is describing his hand to the [hopefully]
declarer.
Cheers,
Kurt
David Babcock
> Suppose 2NT is Puppet (Meckwell), you've got an additional "space"
> How would you structure it ?
3C = no 5-card major: now 3D asks for a 4-card major along normal
Stayman lines (with the traditional inference if opener shows a major
and responder continues to 3NT), while 3M is Smolen (on a 5-3 instead
of a 5-4, but that doesn't matter) -- this reveals nothing about four-
card majors unless responder wants to know
3M = that five-card major
This structure has the merit of keeping things on relatively familiar
ground while handling responder's major-suit 5-3s and 4-3s with no
wrong-siding problems. The opps do get some artificial bids that they
can double, but I don't know that that is any worse is this structure
than in any other I've seen or can imagine. 1NT:2NT 3D is undefined:
odd perhaps, but maybe it's actually a sign of some success, since we
are trying to conceal the closed hand. :-)
David
Derek Broughton
> On Aug 6, 4:39 pm, David Babcock <d...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>> Playing 1NT:3C as Puppet (along with regular Stayman) has some appeal,
>> but I wonder whether there are reasons for choosing one or the other
>> when either one would work (for example, one or both four-card majors
>> in a 4-4-3-2, 10-14 HCP). Perhaps someone has come up with something
>> systematic on this?
>
> 1NT-3C (Puppet Stayman) is better when responder is balanced and holds
> at most one 4-card major. Puppet Stayman can conceal opener's shape
> while doing checking for the major fit. Of course in order to do this,
> you need to arrange your puppet responses to conceal opener's shape.
> 1NT-3C
> 3D = 0 or 1 4-card major
> 3M = 5-card major
> 3NT = 4-4 in the majors
>
> Regular Stayman is better in two cases:
...
> 2. Responder has 4-4 or longer in the majors. When responder is 4-4 in
> the majors, he can't guarantee to find any 4-4 major fit by going thru
> puppet using the responding scheme above.
Sure he can:
1N - 3C!
3D*- 4D^
* - a 4-card major
^ - I have both, show me yours.
or after 3D, responder (with only one 4-card major) bids the other major to
let opener bid game in his major or 3N.
--
derek