ACBL GCC -- 1M[STR NAT]-(P)-1NT[FG]
Michael Angelo Ravera
<QUOTE>
I'm looking for clarification about various permissions granted under
the General Convention Chart that seem to be in conflict. All of the
involve the Response and Rebids permissions:
I'll excerpt the GCC here:
2. ONE NOTRUMP response to a major suit opening bid forcing one round;
cannot guarantee game invitational or better values.
3. CONVENTIONAL RESPONSES WHICH GUARANTEE GAME
FORCING OR BETTER VALUES. May NOT be part of a relay system.
7. ARTIFICIAL AND CONVENTIONAL CALLS after strong (15+ HCP),
forcing opening bids ...
Permissions #2 and #3 seem to be in conflict. Can a 1NT response be
used as an artifical game force over a 1M opener? Permission #3 says
you can. #2 says you can't.
Similarly, it is perfectly legal to play a strong 1M opener that
promises at least 4 cards in the suit bid (by definition of
"natural"). If you also played the 1M opener as forcing, permission #7
would seem to allow you to play anything you liked in response
(including a 1NT that was artificial and forcing to game).
So, are the permissions cumulative or is there primacy attached to the
order and what significance does the restriction that the forcing 1NT
response not promise invitational or better values place on the
"Anything may be game forcing" provision.
This, incidentally, isn't out of idle interest. I am trying out a
Fantoni-Nunes-like system. It would seem like a 1NT that shows game
values would fit nicely into the works. If it is specifically illegal,
we could use a "Cheapest suit forcing", but the whole point of the
system is to bid naturally whenver possible.
</QUOTE>
Any ideas on the likely reply?
KWSchneider
#2 and #3 are not in conflict - #3 states that ANY conventional bid
can be a GF - this includes 1N. #2 prohibits the use of 1N as a bid
that can be an artificial game invite, or to show both NON-GF and GF
values.
According to the ACBL, artificial GI bids are outlawed, like the 2C
response in the Power System. Apparently, an artificial GI is
difficult to defend against, since the defense is powerless to enter
the auction to compete [no suit to take-out, I guess] until the
declarer has declined. Then, I presume, it is too late.
Many of us saw using 1N as this type of bid [since it was forcing] as
a GI+. All we needed to do was tack on a responder option that
"converted" the intent of the bid and voila, we had an artificial bid
that could be used to show multiple options. And again, it made the
bid very difficult to defend - 4th hand was afraid to get into the
auction until it was too late.
Therein lies the ban, the defense cannot bid comfortably [or pass as
the case may be] when 1N can have multiple options. Ergo, it is EITHER
an artificial GF [very clear to the defense] OR it is a 1-round force
showing less than GF values but not necessarily invitational ones, as
it is applied today.
I'm not sure I've expressed myself clearly but that was the
explanation I received when I looked into it 3 years ago.
Cheers,
Kurt
jadelo
"Breakthrough Club" used 1NT after a major opening to show 10+
points.
I asked a director if we could use it and permission was denied.
I previously sent a letter to the ACBL asking about various parts of
this system.
They said that the INT was ok ) (I suspect that I did not explain
it clearly>
Jeff
Gordon Rainsford
> I sent this one off for a ruling:
>
> <QUOTE>
> I'm looking for clarification about various permissions granted under
> the General Convention Chart that seem to be in conflict. All of the
> involve the Response and Rebids permissions:
>
> I'll excerpt the GCC here:
> 2. ONE NOTRUMP response to a major suit opening bid forcing one round;
>
> cannot guarantee game invitational or better values.
>
> 3. CONVENTIONAL RESPONSES WHICH GUARANTEE GAME
>
> FORCING OR BETTER VALUES. May NOT be part of a relay system.
I see no conflict: I read it as saying that you can't play the 1NT as
showing Invitational+ values, but you can play it as game-forcing.
Nick France
I don't see any conflict on #2 and #3. 1NT can be game forcing but
can not include an invitational option.
The comment on relay systems needs looking at the definitions ACBL has
made. Responder's first bid can not start a relay system however,
Opener's rebid may if it meets certain restrictions.
Nick France
Michael Angelo Ravera
>
> - Show quoted text -
I understand 1H=1NT can't say "I'm forcing to game, bid 2C to hear
more". It can, however, say "I'm forcing to game given that you have
4+ hearts and 15+HCP. What else do you have?"
David W.
backwards :)
> I understand 1H=1NT can't say "I'm forcing to game, bid 2C to hear
> more".
Hmmm, I think it can...since it is not the 1NT bid that initiates the
relay but rather the (optional) 2C. What it cannot say is "but I
might actually only be invitational and I'll let you (and the
opponents) know next time".
> It can, however, say "I'm forcing to game given that you have
> 4+ hearts and 15+HCP. What else do you have?"- Hide quoted text -
Hmmm 2. The "What else do you have?" part of the message sounds an
awful lot like a relay (tell me more) which 3 specifically
prohibits.
Cheers,
David W.
Michael Angelo Ravera
Apparently you misuderstand what the definition of a "relay" is and
when it must be begun to be considered "a relay system."
"I've got x, what else can you tell me?" is just a simple constructive
auction.
"I've got x, bid cheap and I'll tell you more" is a relay.
KWSchneider
>
> - Show quoted text -
Actually 1H-1N CAN say I'm forcing to game, tell me more - provided 1N
is defined as an artificial GF and 2C is not a relay [ie there are
other options avilable].
It CANNOT be GI+ - that is, it can have the context of invitational in
the major [which forcing 1N already has: 1M-1N-2m-3M] but it can't be
a GF AT THE SAME TIME. So you couldn't arbitrarily use 1N as your
GLOBAL major suit raise.
ITS EITHER natural and forcing for 1-round with potential 3card
support for the major and showing 6/7-10/11pts or its TOTALLY a GF.
There is no "blended option".
Kurt
Michael Angelo Ravera
Actually, you can use artifical invites (or preempts for that matter)
to show a fit in the suit opened, but they must be jumps. GGC Response
and Rebid Permission #5:
SINGLE OR HIGHER JUMP SHIFTS AND/OR NOTRUMP BIDS AT
THE TWO LEVEL OR HIGHER to indicate a raise or to force to game.
This permits Splimit and Bergen (and a variety of other fit showing)
raises. Fit jumps and mixed raises are considered natural, so don't
require a specific permission.