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Point reduction for short suit honors?
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Bertil
May 12, 2013, 5:36:28 PM5/12/13
to
In his "Hand Evaluation" booklet of 2002 Marty Bergen advised to deduct points
for short suit honors, such as doubletons like QJ,Qx and Jx. He also implied
one may deduct 1/2 from AJ.KQ and KJ.
Later he published a new booklet Vol4 of Hand Evaluation.
Then he seems to have outlined a method in his "Slam Bidding Made Easier",
which is reproduced by Unit 524 at Google. Here the KQ, KJ , QJ, QX and JX
are all reduced by 1 pt.
Which of these versions should one teach to intermediate players?
Apply these rules to this hand : KJ-QJxxx-KQ-xxxx, and tell me if it qualifies for an opening bid 1H in 1st and 2nd seat in Stand AM bidding?
Stig
for short suit honors, such as doubletons like QJ,Qx and Jx. He also implied
one may deduct 1/2 from AJ.KQ and KJ.
Later he published a new booklet Vol4 of Hand Evaluation.
Then he seems to have outlined a method in his "Slam Bidding Made Easier",
which is reproduced by Unit 524 at Google. Here the KQ, KJ , QJ, QX and JX
are all reduced by 1 pt.
Which of these versions should one teach to intermediate players?
Apply these rules to this hand : KJ-QJxxx-KQ-xxxx, and tell me if it qualifies for an opening bid 1H in 1st and 2nd seat in Stand AM bidding?
Stig
judyo...@gmail.com
May 12, 2013, 7:02:46 PM5/12/13
to
It seems clear that no one follows Goren's rule of subtracting a point for no aces, when considering an opening bid. How come? Is it just too complicated? (Seems simple to me. Ane correct, by the way.)
Carl
Carl
judyo...@gmail.com
May 12, 2013, 7:29:05 PM5/12/13
to
Apply these rules to this hand : KJ-QJxxx-KQ-xxxx, and tell me if it qualifies for an opening bid 1H in 1st and 2nd seat in Stand AM bidding?
Carl
Bertil
May 12, 2013, 8:46:37 PM5/12/13
to
millions?
Stig
Bertil
May 12, 2013, 9:58:34 PM5/12/13
to
On Sunday, May 12, 2013 7:02:46 PM UTC-4, judyo...@verizon.net wrote:
> It seems clear that no one follows Goren's rule of subtracting a point for no aces, when considering an opening bid. How come? Is it just too complicated? (Seems simple to me. Ane correct, by the way.)
>
>
>
> Carl
As far as I can find out, Bergen does not adjust for no A.
> It seems clear that no one follows Goren's rule of subtracting a point for no aces, when considering an opening bid. How come? Is it just too complicated? (Seems simple to me. Ane correct, by the way.)
>
>
>
> Carl
Stig
Bertil
May 12, 2013, 10:01:05 PM5/12/13
to
Stig
pgmer6809
May 13, 2013, 1:02:19 AM5/13/13
to
On May 12, 4:29 pm, "judyorc...@verizon.net" <judyorc...@gmail.com>
wrote:
marginal opener's at best, and on most days I would pass both of them
in first or second seat.
I think it was Kaplan that advised that while you could open a Major
with a 12 count (and 2 QT) you are best advised to have 13HCP (and
2QT) to open a minor.
But you can add 1Pt for having 4 spades, since it gives you an easy
rebid. For every 1/2 QT you are short you should have an extra 2 Pts I
think.
So to open with 1.5QT you need closer to 14 "Pts" (counting shape +
HCP) than 12.
wrote:
> Apply these rules to this hand : KJ-QJxxx-KQ-xxxx, and tell me if it qualifies for an opening bid 1H in 1st and 2nd seat in Stand AM bidding?
>
> How about Qxxx-Kx-Jxxx-KQJ? *Maybe* you can untangle the transportation to make 3NT. For sure, you are going to have to try if you open the 1st hand.
>
> Carl
Neither of these hands contain two Quick Tricks. So for me they are
>
> How about Qxxx-Kx-Jxxx-KQJ? *Maybe* you can untangle the transportation to make 3NT. For sure, you are going to have to try if you open the 1st hand.
>
> Carl
marginal opener's at best, and on most days I would pass both of them
in first or second seat.
I think it was Kaplan that advised that while you could open a Major
with a 12 count (and 2 QT) you are best advised to have 13HCP (and
2QT) to open a minor.
But you can add 1Pt for having 4 spades, since it gives you an easy
rebid. For every 1/2 QT you are short you should have an extra 2 Pts I
think.
So to open with 1.5QT you need closer to 14 "Pts" (counting shape +
HCP) than 12.
David Goldfarb
May 13, 2013, 4:10:18 AM5/13/13
to
In article <3ae12cd3-4a37-4615...@googlegroups.com>,
Marty Bergen has a thing he calls "Adjust-3": count your queens and
jacks, count your aces and tens. Quacks are overvalued in the point
count, tens and aces are undervalued, so if you're three or more to the
quacky side, subtract one, and if you're three or more to the acey
then add one. That'll often subtract a point from an aceless hand,
but not always.
--
David Goldfarb |"Think of me as a brief electromagnetic anomaly
goldf...@gmail.com | who told you some true things for your own good."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Babylon 5, "Day of the Dead"
jacks, count your aces and tens. Quacks are overvalued in the point
count, tens and aces are undervalued, so if you're three or more to the
quacky side, subtract one, and if you're three or more to the acey
then add one. That'll often subtract a point from an aceless hand,
but not always.
--
David Goldfarb |"Think of me as a brief electromagnetic anomaly
goldf...@gmail.com | who told you some true things for your own good."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Babylon 5, "Day of the Dead"
Bertil
May 13, 2013, 6:37:35 AM5/13/13
to
On Monday, May 13, 2013 4:10:18 AM UTC-4, David Goldfarb wrote:
> In article <3ae12cd3-4a37-4615...@googlegroups.com>,
>
> judyo...@verizon.net <judyo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >It seems clear that no one follows Goren's rule of subtracting a point
>
> >for no aces, when considering an opening bid. How come? Is it just
>
> >too complicated? (Seems simple to me. Ane correct, by the way.)
>
>
>
> Marty Bergen has a thing he calls "Adjust-3": count your queens and
>
> jacks, count your aces and tens. Quacks are overvalued in the point
>
> count, tens and aces are undervalued, so if you're three or more to the
>
> quacky side, subtract one, and if you're three or more to the acey
>
> then add one. That'll often subtract a point from an aceless hand,
>
> but not always.
>
>
Your point is well taken, and I had in mind to point out the same.
> In article <3ae12cd3-4a37-4615...@googlegroups.com>,
>
> judyo...@verizon.net <judyo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >It seems clear that no one follows Goren's rule of subtracting a point
>
> >for no aces, when considering an opening bid. How come? Is it just
>
> >too complicated? (Seems simple to me. Ane correct, by the way.)
>
>
>
> Marty Bergen has a thing he calls "Adjust-3": count your queens and
>
> jacks, count your aces and tens. Quacks are overvalued in the point
>
> count, tens and aces are undervalued, so if you're three or more to the
>
> quacky side, subtract one, and if you're three or more to the acey
>
> then add one. That'll often subtract a point from an aceless hand,
>
> but not always.
>
>
Your comment about "not always" brings to mind a 12HCP hand with just 4 K's.
Stig
judyo...@gmail.com
May 13, 2013, 9:18:00 AM5/13/13
to
>
>
> Besides, you evidently think my hand is worth an opening 1H bid, or else there is no point in considering your hand. Is that what you think?
>
>
>
> Stig
judyo...@gmail.com
May 13, 2013, 9:26:46 AM5/13/13
to
Carl
paul
May 14, 2013, 1:18:04 PM5/14/13
to
My rules for opening are:
(1) 12 hcp including an Ace. 4333 is fine, since a 1NT rebid will
suggest 12-14.
(2) 13 hcp including an Ace or two Kings. This automatically includes
all 14 hcp hands.
(3) 13 Goren points including two quick tricks and fair intermediates
and not counting both short suit points and high cards in the same
suit.
For the first two rules, you don't need to worry about short suit
honors: KQxxx Qx QJxxx K is fine, you expect either the playing
strength or the high cards will prove useful. I wouldn't quibble with
passing that hand or QJ QJxx Qxxx Axx, but most of the field will open
on 12 hcp and on balance I think it will pay to open such hands. A
rule (3) opening might be
x Axxx KQxx Q10xx --aggressive, certainly, but I've always opened such
hands and cannot recall too many disasters. Much of the field passed
this hand recently: xxx -- AK10xx QJ10xx . Perhaps, without the tens,
passing would be best, but as it is I think 1D is clear.
(1) 12 hcp including an Ace. 4333 is fine, since a 1NT rebid will
suggest 12-14.
(2) 13 hcp including an Ace or two Kings. This automatically includes
all 14 hcp hands.
(3) 13 Goren points including two quick tricks and fair intermediates
and not counting both short suit points and high cards in the same
suit.
For the first two rules, you don't need to worry about short suit
honors: KQxxx Qx QJxxx K is fine, you expect either the playing
strength or the high cards will prove useful. I wouldn't quibble with
passing that hand or QJ QJxx Qxxx Axx, but most of the field will open
on 12 hcp and on balance I think it will pay to open such hands. A
rule (3) opening might be
x Axxx KQxx Q10xx --aggressive, certainly, but I've always opened such
hands and cannot recall too many disasters. Much of the field passed
this hand recently: xxx -- AK10xx QJ10xx . Perhaps, without the tens,
passing would be best, but as it is I think 1D is clear.
Bertil
May 14, 2013, 4:06:11 PM5/14/13
to
plus 1 quick trick. Do you count QJx as 1/2 qt?
On rule 2 you seem to include QJ-QJx-QJxx-KQxx, a 14 HCP hand with only 1 qt.
Are your rules based on some kind of statistical simulation showing that
you would make a positive score more often than not?
Stig
Michael Angelo Ravera
May 14, 2013, 9:03:29 PM5/14/13
to
However, I use two almost mutually exclusive metrics. For semi-balanced hands from (4333) to (7222) and for (4441) count HCP (maybe adding a point for length). For unbalanced hands, count losing tricks.
Bertil
May 14, 2013, 9:12:25 PM5/14/13
to
On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 9:03:29 PM UTC-4, Michael Angelo Ravera wrote:
> On Sunday, May 12, 2013 2:36:28 PM UTC-7, Bertil wrote:
>
> > In his "Hand Evaluation" booklet of 2002 Marty Bergen advised to deduct points
>
> >
>
> > for short suit honors, such as doubletons like QJ,Qx and Jx. He also implied
>
> >
>
> > one may deduct 1/2 from AJ.KQ and KJ.
>
> >
>
> > Later he published a new booklet Vol4 of Hand Evaluation.
>
> >
>
> > Then he seems to have outlined a method in his "Slam Bidding Made Easier",
>
> >
>
> > which is reproduced by Unit 524 at Google. Here the KQ, KJ , QJ, QX and JX
>
> >
>
> > are all reduced by 1 pt.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Which of these versions should one teach to intermediate players?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Apply these rules to this hand : KJ-QJxxx-KQ-xxxx, and tell me if it qualifies for an opening bid 1H in 1st and 2nd seat in Stand AM bidding?
>
> > Stig
>
>
>
> Deduct a point for a singleton queen or a doubleton jack unless partner bids it. Everyone I know who plays anything similar to StdUS would open 1H with this hand and not ask a lot of questions about it.
>
>
Are you saying nobody has adopted Bergen's doubleton honor short suit count?
> On Sunday, May 12, 2013 2:36:28 PM UTC-7, Bertil wrote:
>
> > In his "Hand Evaluation" booklet of 2002 Marty Bergen advised to deduct points
>
> >
>
> > for short suit honors, such as doubletons like QJ,Qx and Jx. He also implied
>
> >
>
> > one may deduct 1/2 from AJ.KQ and KJ.
>
> >
>
> > Later he published a new booklet Vol4 of Hand Evaluation.
>
> >
>
> > Then he seems to have outlined a method in his "Slam Bidding Made Easier",
>
> >
>
> > which is reproduced by Unit 524 at Google. Here the KQ, KJ , QJ, QX and JX
>
> >
>
> > are all reduced by 1 pt.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Which of these versions should one teach to intermediate players?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Apply these rules to this hand : KJ-QJxxx-KQ-xxxx, and tell me if it qualifies for an opening bid 1H in 1st and 2nd seat in Stand AM bidding?
>
> > Stig
>
>
>
> Deduct a point for a singleton queen or a doubleton jack unless partner bids it. Everyone I know who plays anything similar to StdUS would open 1H with this hand and not ask a lot of questions about it.
>
>
Are they all doing better than Bergen did when he was active?
Stig
Michael Angelo Ravera
May 17, 2013, 9:06:55 PM5/17/13
to
On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 6:12:25 PM UTC-7, Bertil wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 9:03:29 PM UTC-4, Michael Angelo Ravera wrote:
>
> > On Sunday, May 12, 2013 2:36:28 PM UTC-7, Bertil wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > In his "Hand Evaluation" booklet of 2002 Marty Bergen advised to deduct points
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > for short suit honors, such as doubletons like QJ,Qx and Jx. He also implied
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > one may deduct 1/2 from AJ.KQ and KJ.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Later he published a new booklet Vol4 of Hand Evaluation.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Then he seems to have outlined a method in his "Slam Bidding Made Easier",
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > which is reproduced by Unit 524 at Google. Here the KQ, KJ , QJ, QX and JX
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > are all reduced by 1 pt.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Which of these versions should one teach to intermediate players?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Apply these rules to this hand : KJ-QJxxx-KQ-xxxx, and tell me if it qualifies for an opening bid 1H in 1st and 2nd seat in Stand AM bidding?
>
> >
>
> > > Stig
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Deduct a point for a singleton queen or a doubleton jack unless partner bids it. Everyone I know who plays anything similar to StdUS would open 1H with this hand and not ask a lot of questions about it.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> Are you saying nobody has adopted Bergen's doubleton honor short suit count?
>
> Are they all doing better than Bergen did when he was active?
What I am saying is that virtually every 12-count with a 5-card suit gets opened. Many 11-counts with a 5-card suit get opened. Some people may think twice before opening an 11-count with with a 5-card suit but no aces, kings, or tens.
> On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 9:03:29 PM UTC-4, Michael Angelo Ravera wrote:
>
> > On Sunday, May 12, 2013 2:36:28 PM UTC-7, Bertil wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > In his "Hand Evaluation" booklet of 2002 Marty Bergen advised to deduct points
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > for short suit honors, such as doubletons like QJ,Qx and Jx. He also implied
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > one may deduct 1/2 from AJ.KQ and KJ.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Later he published a new booklet Vol4 of Hand Evaluation.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Then he seems to have outlined a method in his "Slam Bidding Made Easier",
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > which is reproduced by Unit 524 at Google. Here the KQ, KJ , QJ, QX and JX
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > are all reduced by 1 pt.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Which of these versions should one teach to intermediate players?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Apply these rules to this hand : KJ-QJxxx-KQ-xxxx, and tell me if it qualifies for an opening bid 1H in 1st and 2nd seat in Stand AM bidding?
>
> >
>
> > > Stig
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Deduct a point for a singleton queen or a doubleton jack unless partner bids it. Everyone I know who plays anything similar to StdUS would open 1H with this hand and not ask a lot of questions about it.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> Are you saying nobody has adopted Bergen's doubleton honor short suit count?
>
> Are they all doing better than Bergen did when he was active?
I am not sure who has adopted this evaluation metric. But you must keep in mind that most people who *HAVE* adopted it aren't doing as well as Marty did when he was active.
Bertil
May 20, 2013, 4:58:08 PM5/20/13
to
and Bergen probably would count it as 10.5+1-2. Also, it has only 1.5 QT.
I don't know how experts evaluate hands, but my concern is what to teach
beginners and intermediates.
Stig
Stig
vsp...@hotmail.com
May 20, 2013, 6:42:26 PM5/20/13
to
transitory evaluation? Who cares?
The auction should reveal whether
these short suit honors have value.
Michael Angelo Ravera
May 20, 2013, 7:03:25 PM5/20/13
to
Telling beginners and intermediates not to open 12 HCP hands with a 5-card suit is somewhat akin to telling them not to lock their cars when parked on a city street. It just BEGS to have the hand stolen.
So, the honors are badly placed and may not be pulling their full weight?
1) Decline invitations that haven't promised what you think is required.
2) Stop low, if you get a simple nuisance raise.
3) Make only a trial bid, if you don't like partner's strong invitation
4) Don't double opponents based on your full point count, but on the tricks that you think that you can actually take on defense.
5) Shut it down in game, if partner makes a slam try
But whatever you do, OPEN THE BIDDING!
lowerline
May 21, 2013, 5:27:37 AM5/21/13
to
Op zondag 12 mei 2013 23:36:28 UTC+2 schreef Bertil het volgende:
This hand is worth 10 starting points according to Bergen:
12hcp -1 (4 quacks and no aces/tens) -2 (dubious doubletons) +1 (5crd suit)
As he requires 13 starting points to open, this hand isn't even close...
Steven
12hcp -1 (4 quacks and no aces/tens) -2 (dubious doubletons) +1 (5crd suit)
As he requires 13 starting points to open, this hand isn't even close...
Steven
judyo...@gmail.com
May 21, 2013, 8:45:46 AM5/21/13
to
elling beginners and intermediates not to open 12 HCP hands with a 5-card suit is somewhat akin to telling them not to lock their cars when parked on a city street. It just BEGS to have the hand stolen.
>
>
>
> So, the honors are badly placed and may not be pulling their full weight?
>
> 1) Decline invitations that haven't promised what you think is required.
>
> 2) Stop low, if you get a simple nuisance raise.
>
> 3) Make only a trial bid, if you don't like partner's strong invitation
>
> 4) Don't double opponents based on your full point count, but on the tricks that you think that you can actually take on defense.
>
> 5) Shut it down in game, if partner makes a slam try
>
>
>
> But whatever you do, OPEN THE BIDDING!
What will stop your partner from doubling based on your alleged full count?
>
>
>
> So, the honors are badly placed and may not be pulling their full weight?
>
> 1) Decline invitations that haven't promised what you think is required.
>
> 2) Stop low, if you get a simple nuisance raise.
>
> 3) Make only a trial bid, if you don't like partner's strong invitation
>
> 4) Don't double opponents based on your full point count, but on the tricks that you think that you can actually take on defense.
>
> 5) Shut it down in game, if partner makes a slam try
>
>
>
> But whatever you do, OPEN THE BIDDING!
What will stop your partner from redoubling in game based on your alleged full count?
What will stop your partner from bulling into slam based on your alleged full count?
Keeping a loaded pistol on the table?
Carl
Will in New Haven
May 21, 2013, 9:23:51 AM5/21/13
to
On May 21, 8:45 am, "judyorc...@verizon.net" <judyorc...@gmail.com>
wrote:
What will keep the opponents from getting to pick the trump suit, time
after time, while you sit there and worry about the things above? Half
a dozen small losses, often unnoticed or with the comment "nothing we
can do about it," make up for a possible disaster avoided.
Of course, that worry can be overdone also but there is a limit to how
much timidity can gain one at the bridge table.
--
Will in New Haven
wrote:
after time, while you sit there and worry about the things above? Half
a dozen small losses, often unnoticed or with the comment "nothing we
can do about it," make up for a possible disaster avoided.
Of course, that worry can be overdone also but there is a limit to how
much timidity can gain one at the bridge table.
--
Will in New Haven
judyo...@gmail.com
May 21, 2013, 9:26:54 AM5/21/13
to
Carl
Bertil
May 21, 2013, 11:50:11 AM5/21/13
to
is only one impartial way of determining if the hand is should be opened.
One must perform a comprehensive simulation and do a DD analysis, to find out
how often the partnership can obtain a positive score better than the opps.
That would rule out any sacrifice bidding.
To gain a small insight I obtained 25 random deals with N having the fixed hand. I got these mean data: Ave HCP=20.56 +/- 4.63 and 7.5 +/- 1.2 trumps.
Using Jogs formula :tricks= trumps +(HCP-20)/3 yields 7.7 tricks.
That's not encouraging. BTW I think the formula divisor should be 2.5.
If somebody would care to do a better simulation, feel free to report it.
Stig
france...@googlemail.com
May 21, 2013, 11:55:53 AM5/21/13
to
What will stop your partner from doubling based on your alleged full count? What will stop your partner from redoubling in game based on your alleged full count? What will stop your partner from bulling into slam based on your alleged full count? Keeping a loaded pistol on the table? Carl
If you have agreed that this is an opening bid for your partnership then none of those things will happen.
The risks from opening light are more complicated, and you touch on them with another post: the wider the range of opening 1-bids, the harder constructive bidding and high-level competitive auctions get.
There are big advantages from opening light, but that is the real downside. Saying that partner will overbid is irrelevant; that only happens if you breach partnership agreement.
Will in New Haven
May 21, 2013, 1:28:06 PM5/21/13
to
rounds anyway because all low-level doubles are for takeout. We happen
to play cooperative penalty doubles and partner needs a bit extra to
double because our opening bids are light but it hasn't bitten us
often at all.
Will in New Haven
May 21, 2013, 1:33:31 PM5/21/13
to
On May 12, 5:36 pm, Bertil <stigfjor...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In his "Hand Evaluation" booklet of 2002 Marty Bergen advised to deduct points
> for short suit honors, such as doubletons like QJ,Qx and Jx. He also implied
> one may deduct 1/2 from AJ.KQ and KJ.
> Later he published a new booklet Vol4 of Hand Evaluation.
> Then he seems to have outlined a method in his "Slam Bidding Made Easier",
> which is reproduced by Unit 524 at Google. Here the KQ, KJ , QJ, QX and JX
> are all reduced by 1 pt.
>
> Which of these versions should one teach to intermediate players?
>
> Apply these rules to this hand : KJ-QJxxx-KQ-xxxx, and tell me if it qualifies for an opening bid 1H in 1st and 2nd seat in Stand AM bidding?
By the way, I have been arguing for opening the bidding on borderline
> In his "Hand Evaluation" booklet of 2002 Marty Bergen advised to deduct points
> for short suit honors, such as doubletons like QJ,Qx and Jx. He also implied
> one may deduct 1/2 from AJ.KQ and KJ.
> Later he published a new booklet Vol4 of Hand Evaluation.
> Then he seems to have outlined a method in his "Slam Bidding Made Easier",
> which is reproduced by Unit 524 at Google. Here the KQ, KJ , QJ, QX and JX
> are all reduced by 1 pt.
>
> Which of these versions should one teach to intermediate players?
>
> Apply these rules to this hand : KJ-QJxxx-KQ-xxxx, and tell me if it qualifies for an opening bid 1H in 1st and 2nd seat in Stand AM bidding?
hands but I would never criticize a partner for not opening that hand.
It is soft and ugly and I don't need point count adjustments to tell
me that.
Playing fairly light opening bids as we do that is a really easy pass
in THIRD seat. Any lead except a Club is as likely to be right so why
tell partner about that Heart suit.
Michael Angelo Ravera
May 21, 2013, 8:54:27 PM5/21/13
to
What *I* teach beginners is that there are two *SEPARATE* metrics for hand evaluation. One for defensive hands (semi-balanced and 4441) and one for offensive hands (unbalanced).
My partners don't generally double anything for penalties based upon any minimum in my hand when I open offensively. When I open defensively, partners are usually afraid to double suit contracts without trump length anyway because, unless opponents are certifiably self-destructive, it's far from certain that my aces and kings are going to cash.
It takes 5 tricks to beat a 3-level contract. 6-8 to beat it by more than the value of own game. It's quite often that you get a ruff and two or three length tricks in your trump suit. So, often it is easier to take 10 on offense than 8 (or even 6) on defense.
5-level decisions are a bit easier because it only takes 3 to beat a 5-level contract and you might be fairly sure that you are going to lose 2 or 3 tricks on offense.
As far as partner bidding games and slams:
Haven't you heard of suit quality and specific control inquiries? Haven't you heard of control showing bids? How about help suit game tries (or game try requests)? They are all designed to make sure that you won't lose too many tricks off the top to make game or slam.
If I have opened offensively, my partners don't generally bid game or slam intending to make without either most of the controls themselves or making some kind of inquiry bid.
derek
May 21, 2013, 9:23:29 PM5/21/13
to
On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 9:45:46 AM UTC-3, judyo...@verizon.net wrote:
> > But whatever you do, OPEN THE BIDDING!
>
> What will stop your partner from doubling based on your alleged full count?
>
> What will stop your partner from redoubling in game based on your alleged full count?
>
> What will stop your partner from bulling into slam based on your alleged full count?
>
You have 12 HCP AND a five-card suit. You might have had a flat 13. What are the odds that if you partner takes any of those actions it will end up worse than if you'd opened the flat 13 - that is, the "full count"?
> > But whatever you do, OPEN THE BIDDING!
>
> What will stop your partner from doubling based on your alleged full count?
>
> What will stop your partner from redoubling in game based on your alleged full count?
>
> What will stop your partner from bulling into slam based on your alleged full count?
>
Bertil
May 22, 2013, 7:21:31 AM5/22/13
to
On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:54:27 PM UTC-4, Michael Angelo Ravera wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 5:45:46 AM UTC-7, judyo...@verizon.net wrote:
>
> > elling beginners and intermediates not to open 12 HCP hands with a 5-card suit is somewhat akin to telling them not to lock their cars when parked on a city street. It just BEGS to have the hand stolen.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > So, the honors are badly placed and may not be pulling their full weight?
>
> > > 1) Decline invitations that haven't promised what you think is required.
>
> > > 2) Stop low, if you get a simple nuisance raise.
>
> > > 3) Make only a trial bid, if you don't like partner's strong invitation
>
> > > 4) Don't double opponents based on your full point count, but on the tricks that you think that you can actually take on defense.
>
> > > 5) Shut it down in game, if partner makes a slam try
>
> > > But whatever you do, OPEN THE BIDDING!
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > What will stop your partner from doubling based on your alleged full count?
>
> > What will stop your partner from redoubling in game based on your alleged full count?
>
> > What will stop your partner from bulling into slam based on your alleged full count?
>
> > Keeping a loaded pistol on the table?
>
>
>
> You *HAVE* full count. If partner can double or redouble or bash into slam based upon point count, her honors are likely to complement yours.
>
>
Let's see what you regard as a 'full count'. Take a look at a 4=5=2=2 hand
> On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 5:45:46 AM UTC-7, judyo...@verizon.net wrote:
>
> > elling beginners and intermediates not to open 12 HCP hands with a 5-card suit is somewhat akin to telling them not to lock their cars when parked on a city street. It just BEGS to have the hand stolen.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > So, the honors are badly placed and may not be pulling their full weight?
>
> > > 1) Decline invitations that haven't promised what you think is required.
>
> > > 2) Stop low, if you get a simple nuisance raise.
>
> > > 3) Make only a trial bid, if you don't like partner's strong invitation
>
> > > 4) Don't double opponents based on your full point count, but on the tricks that you think that you can actually take on defense.
>
> > > 5) Shut it down in game, if partner makes a slam try
>
> > > But whatever you do, OPEN THE BIDDING!
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > What will stop your partner from doubling based on your alleged full count?
>
> > What will stop your partner from redoubling in game based on your alleged full count?
>
> > What will stop your partner from bulling into slam based on your alleged full count?
>
> > Keeping a loaded pistol on the table?
>
>
>
> You *HAVE* full count. If partner can double or redouble or bash into slam based upon point count, her honors are likely to complement yours.
>
>
like Qxxx-Axxxx-QJ-QJ. Do you count it as having 13 pts? Kaplan would have
counted it as worth only 9.75 pts and BUM-RAP counts it as 10.5+1. But Bissell
counts it as 13. Is that how you evaluate a hand?
Stig
Michael Angelo Ravera
May 23, 2013, 11:41:34 AM5/23/13
to
On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 4:21:31 AM UTC-7, Bertil wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:54:27 PM UTC-4, Michael Angelo Ravera wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 5:45:46 AM UTC-7, judyo...@verizon.net wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > elling beginners and intermediates not to open 12 HCP hands with a 5-card suit is somewhat akin to telling them not to lock their cars when parked on a city street. It just BEGS to have the hand stolen.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > So, the honors are badly placed and may not be pulling their full weight?
>
> >
>
> > > > 1) Decline invitations that haven't promised what you think is required.
>
> >
>
> > > > 2) Stop low, if you get a simple nuisance raise.
>
> >
>
> > > > 3) Make only a trial bid, if you don't like partner's strong invitation
>
> >
>
> > > > 4) Don't double opponents based on your full point count, but on the tricks that you think that you can actually take on defense.
>
> >
>
> > > > 5) Shut it down in game, if partner makes a slam try
>
> >
>
> > > > But whatever you do, OPEN THE BIDDING!
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > What will stop your partner from doubling based on your alleged full count?
>
> >
>
> > > What will stop your partner from redoubling in game based on your alleged full count?
>
> >
>
> > > What will stop your partner from bulling into slam based on your alleged full count?
>
> >
>
> > > Keeping a loaded pistol on the table?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > You *HAVE* full count. If partner can double or redouble or bash into slam based upon point count, her honors are likely to complement yours.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> Let's see what you regard as a 'full count'. Take a look at a 4=5=2=2 hand
> like Qxxx-Axxxx-QJ-QJ. Do you count it as having 13 pts? Kaplan would have
> counted it as worth only 9.75 pts and BUM-RAP counts it as 10.5+1. But Bissell
> counts it as 13. Is that how you evaluate a hand?
First, this hand is somewhat pathological since it has two doubleton jacks and is 8LTC and therefore, I consider it an unfair example. I don't expect your evaluation method to work any better on Qxxxxxx-Kxxxxxx-A-void.
> On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:54:27 PM UTC-4, Michael Angelo Ravera wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 5:45:46 AM UTC-7, judyo...@verizon.net wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > elling beginners and intermediates not to open 12 HCP hands with a 5-card suit is somewhat akin to telling them not to lock their cars when parked on a city street. It just BEGS to have the hand stolen.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > So, the honors are badly placed and may not be pulling their full weight?
>
> >
>
> > > > 1) Decline invitations that haven't promised what you think is required.
>
> >
>
> > > > 2) Stop low, if you get a simple nuisance raise.
>
> >
>
> > > > 3) Make only a trial bid, if you don't like partner's strong invitation
>
> >
>
> > > > 4) Don't double opponents based on your full point count, but on the tricks that you think that you can actually take on defense.
>
> >
>
> > > > 5) Shut it down in game, if partner makes a slam try
>
> >
>
> > > > But whatever you do, OPEN THE BIDDING!
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > What will stop your partner from doubling based on your alleged full count?
>
> >
>
> > > What will stop your partner from redoubling in game based on your alleged full count?
>
> >
>
> > > What will stop your partner from bulling into slam based on your alleged full count?
>
> >
>
> > > Keeping a loaded pistol on the table?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > You *HAVE* full count. If partner can double or redouble or bash into slam based upon point count, her honors are likely to complement yours.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> Let's see what you regard as a 'full count'. Take a look at a 4=5=2=2 hand
> like Qxxx-Axxxx-QJ-QJ. Do you count it as having 13 pts? Kaplan would have
> counted it as worth only 9.75 pts and BUM-RAP counts it as 10.5+1. But Bissell
> counts it as 13. Is that how you evaluate a hand?
But, I stated earlier that I take a point off for doubleton jacks. So, this evaluates to an 11-count by my methods. I might still open it in aggressive situations, but not necessarily in all situations. My students wouldn't be taught to open it. They are expected to open 12-counts.
Bertil
May 24, 2013, 7:54:28 AM5/24/13
to
On Thursday, May 23, 2013 11:41:34 AM UTC-4, Michael Angelo Ravera wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 4:21:31 AM UTC-7, Bertil wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:54:27 PM UTC-4, Michael Angelo Ravera wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 5:45:46 AM UTC-7, judyo...@verizon.net wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > elling beginners and intermediates not to open 12 HCP hands with a 5-card suit is somewhat akin to telling them not to lock their cars when parked on a city street. It just BEGS to have the hand stolen.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > So, the honors are badly placed and may not be pulling their full weight?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > 1) Decline invitations that haven't promised what you think is required.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > 2) Stop low, if you get a simple nuisance raise.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > 3) Make only a trial bid, if you don't like partner's strong invitation
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > 4) Don't double opponents based on your full point count, but on the tricks that you think that you can actually take on defense.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > 5) Shut it down in game, if partner makes a slam try
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > But whatever you do, OPEN THE BIDDING!
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > What will stop your partner from doubling based on your alleged full count?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > What will stop your partner from redoubling in game based on your alleged full count?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > What will stop your partner from bulling into slam based on your alleged full count?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > Keeping a loaded pistol on the table?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > You *HAVE* full count. If partner can double or redouble or bash into slam based upon point count, her honors are likely to complement yours.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > Let's see what you regard as a 'full count'. Take a look at a 4=5=2=2 hand
>
> > like Qxxx-Axxxx-QJ-QJ. Do you count it as having 13 pts? Kaplan would have
>
> > counted it as worth only 9.75 pts and BUM-RAP counts it as 10.5+1. But Bissell
>
> > counts it as 13. Is that how you evaluate a hand?
>
>
>
> First, this hand is somewhat pathological since it has two doubleton jacks and is 8LTC and therefore, I consider it an unfair example. I don't expect your evaluation method to work any better on Qxxxxxx-Kxxxxxx-A-void.
>
>
R.Klinger has stated clearly that the standard LTC does not apply to the opening
> On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 4:21:31 AM UTC-7, Bertil wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:54:27 PM UTC-4, Michael Angelo Ravera wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 5:45:46 AM UTC-7, judyo...@verizon.net wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > elling beginners and intermediates not to open 12 HCP hands with a 5-card suit is somewhat akin to telling them not to lock their cars when parked on a city street. It just BEGS to have the hand stolen.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > So, the honors are badly placed and may not be pulling their full weight?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > 1) Decline invitations that haven't promised what you think is required.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > 2) Stop low, if you get a simple nuisance raise.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > 3) Make only a trial bid, if you don't like partner's strong invitation
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > 4) Don't double opponents based on your full point count, but on the tricks that you think that you can actually take on defense.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > 5) Shut it down in game, if partner makes a slam try
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > But whatever you do, OPEN THE BIDDING!
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > What will stop your partner from doubling based on your alleged full count?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > What will stop your partner from redoubling in game based on your alleged full count?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > What will stop your partner from bulling into slam based on your alleged full count?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > Keeping a loaded pistol on the table?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > You *HAVE* full count. If partner can double or redouble or bash into slam based upon point count, her honors are likely to complement yours.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > Let's see what you regard as a 'full count'. Take a look at a 4=5=2=2 hand
>
> > like Qxxx-Axxxx-QJ-QJ. Do you count it as having 13 pts? Kaplan would have
>
> > counted it as worth only 9.75 pts and BUM-RAP counts it as 10.5+1. But Bissell
>
> > counts it as 13. Is that how you evaluate a hand?
>
>
>
> First, this hand is somewhat pathological since it has two doubleton jacks and is 8LTC and therefore, I consider it an unfair example. I don't expect your evaluation method to work any better on Qxxxxxx-Kxxxxxx-A-void.
>
>
hand until an 8-fit has been found. If it did, then the hand Axxx-Axx-Axx-xx
would count as 8 LTC, which I assume you would reject. I suspect you would
open that hand.
Stig
Michael Angelo Ravera
May 24, 2013, 1:23:32 PM5/24/13
to
I use the raw LTC in deciding whether to open borderline OFFENSIVE hands such as the pathological one that you proposed earlier. That one is a no-go on defense. It's a no-go on offense. It does, however, have preemptive value. So, I would only open it in aggressive situations (first seat at favorable vulnerability).
Basically, if you are going to change the subject and go extreme every time that I disagree with you, there isn't much point in offering my opinion despite the fact that you have asked for it.
What others have said, what I have tried to explain, and what you even have said yourself by bringing up Klinger's point about fits, is that no one metric is perfect for deciding about all opening hands. Constructive biding requires that you gain an idea later in the auction about what your hand is worth in the role in which you find yourself. If you want to normalize any evaluation scheme, you should estimate the number of tricks that you are going to take and multiply by 3.07.
For example: I estimate the hand AKQxxxxx K xxx x to be worth about 0.7 tricks in defense against hearts. So, if I want to make a decision about defending hearts, I estimate that it is worth about 2.15 points. But in declaring spades, I estimate it to be worth about 7.9 tricks and therefore evaluate it as a being worth about 24 points.
derek
May 30, 2013, 8:13:37 AM5/30/13
to
On Friday, May 24, 2013 2:23:32 PM UTC-3, Michael Angelo Ravera wrote:
>
> > R.Klinger has stated clearly that the standard LTC does not apply to the opening
> > hand until an 8-fit has been found.
>
>
> > R.Klinger has stated clearly that the standard LTC does not apply to the opening
> > hand until an 8-fit has been found.
>
> I don't know why I bother with you, if you are not going the rules as I state them.
...
>
> I use the raw LTC in deciding whether to open borderline OFFENSIVE hands such as the pathological one that you proposed earlier. That one is a no-go on defense. It's a no-go on offense. It does, however, have preemptive value. So, I would only open it in aggressive situations (first seat at favorable vulnerability).
Stig is not capable of understanding the difference between Klinger suggesting that you can use LTC to (help) find your games and slams, and the use of LTC as one of an arsenal of methods to help decide if a hand is biddable in the first place. In fact, Stig doesn't get the concept of "arsenal", as he's certain there's one magic formula.
> I use the raw LTC in deciding whether to open borderline OFFENSIVE hands such as the pathological one that you proposed earlier. That one is a no-go on defense. It's a no-go on offense. It does, however, have preemptive value. So, I would only open it in aggressive situations (first seat at favorable vulnerability).
Bertil
May 30, 2013, 1:10:57 PM5/30/13
to
quote from his Modern Losing Trick Count Manual.
At "Using the LTC as Opener" However, for standard opening bids of 1-in-a-suit,
the LTC is not used. ....Points make a 1-opening, not LTC.
If you have any more stupid and ignorant comments, feel free to post them.
Stig
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