Defense to the Montreal Relay
smn
Relay .Opener bids 1c which is alerted as artificial (opening count)
and denying a 5 card major.If responder bids one of a major it shows
at least 5 cards.If responder has a 4 card major or no better bid she
bids 1d .Then opener can bid his 4 card major if he has one. They also
said that a 1 d opener shows at least 5 diamonds and denies a even a 4
card major.
Well I have read that this convention is vulnerable to
interference.What's the best defence.For example what does a double of
1c show ? I guess overcalls can be natural but my partners do fancey
things after weak notrump or strong club (like transfers -1c(1d) is a
transfer to hearts.etc.
Any of you know what to do ? Thanks ,smn
Eric Leong
Double is takeout but you could be short in either minor.
2C is natural
2D shows the majors
Eric Leong
Larry
>
[snip]
>
> > Any of you know what to do ? Thanks ,smn
>
> Double is takeout but you could be short in either minor.
> 2C is natural
> 2D shows the majors
>
> Eric Leong
Defense to short club systems are a problem in ACBLand. Conventional
defenses are not allowed despite several of us e-mailing ACBL for
clarification and arguing for 'NT like' defenses.
Larry
KWSchneider
ANY defense is allowed [see recent thread on Fall NABC] since this is
a conventional opening.
It's always useful to interfere over an artificial opening since you
can obstruct communications. In the MR, opener has a 4card major, a
balanced 12-14, or length in clubs.
FWIIW - here is what I play
Pass - none of the following
X - 16+ balanced
1D - 13-15 balanced
1H - full opening hand with hearts and 0-2 spades
1S - 6+pts, 3+s - single-suiter in spades [strong] or in other suit
[weak+]
1N - WEAK minors [54] or WEAK majors [44+]
2C - WEAK clubs+major [54]
2D - WEAK diamonds+major [54]
2H - WEAK majors [55]
2S - singlesuiter WEAK
2N - WEAK minors [55]
3suit - singlesuiter, WEAK no defense
The 1S super-canape" overcall effectively eliminates the negative
double since you have not guaranteed length in the overcall suit. More
importantly it allows you to overcall 1S any time you have 3+spades -
failure to do so, provides partner with a negative inference, that
either you are very weak and flat, or you have 0-2 spades.
I like 1N to show a weak hand with both minors [54] or majors [44+],
which also obstructs their ability to differentiate between 4 and 5
card major responses.
X shows any 16+ balanced hand and puts the opps in a tough position,
since unless they have clubs, they are forced to keep bidding.
Bottom line - if they can't use 1D to show a 4M, a negative X to show
4M, and 1M to show 5+M, you've completely eliminated any advantage to
the use of the Montreal relay. In fact you've turned the tables and
now instead of having some knowledge of opener's hand, they are in the
dark.
When V, I would be more careful with the 2level overcalls, but
otherwise keep the structure the same.
Kurt
Chris
> On Sep 25, 5:52 am, Eric Leong <ewleong...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> [snip]
>
> > > Any of you know what to do ? Thanks ,smn
>
> > Double is takeout but you could be short in either minor.
> > 2C is natural
> > 2D shows the majors
>
> defenses are not allowed despite several of us e-mailing ACBL for
> clarification and arguing for 'NT like' defenses.
On the contrary, from the ACBL General Convention Chart:
"An opening suit bid or response is considered natural if in a minor
it
shows three or more cards in that suit and in a major it shows four or
more
cards in that suit."
So a 1C opening that might be on a doubleton club is a convention.
Also from the ACBL GCC, in the list of allowed competitive agreements:
"DEFENSE TO:
a) conventional calls (except see #10 RESPONSES and REBIDS above
and #7 under DISALLOWED below),"
Neither of the exceptions is applicable in this case.
So you can play any defense to a short club, if "shortness" could
include a doubleton.
You cannot play any defense if 1C promised 3 or more clubs. However,
all of the items Eric suggested would be allowed even against a
natural 1C, since any conventional double is allowed, a natural 2C is
allowed, and a jump overcall to show two known suits (at least 5-4
either way) is allowed, against any opening bid whatsoever.
Christopher Monsour
KWSchneider
We have two opposed views from the ACBL - I choose to accept the view
from Mike Flader that a "short club" is a convention.
Once one accepts that position, then ANY defense is allowed, as
clearly spelled out in the GCC.
Kurt
Kurt
Chris
What happens to you when you pass with a decent hand and a diamond
overcall and the auction comes back to you at 3 or 4 clubs? Wouldn't
it be more reasonable to make double 15+ and keep 1D as natural? If
you don't like the negative double that that gives them, then what
about playing 1D as weak minors or weak majors, double as 15+ and 1NT
as the diamond one-suiter, sound? Actually, that probably best, since
you could add strong 5-5 majors to the possible hands for 1D then
(given the extra space).
The 13-14 point balanced hands will often be able to make a takeout
double next time, and if they can't, you will often be glad you
passed.
Christopher Monsour
KWSchneider
A 1D bid is not useful unless it is a good hand - it has no pre-
emptive value and it allows the opps to play X as 4card major and 1M
as a 5carder. And you don't pass with a decent diamond hand UNLESS it
is exactly 1=3=6=3 [and then they have the master suit and are
unlikely to venture into clubs]. Otherwise a GOOD diamond overcall can
be shown in many ways with the other available bids.
Balanced 6d322 or 5d332 or 5d422 = 1D then 2D if appropriate
Unbalanced 3+s5d or 3+s6d = 1S followed by an appropriate bid
depending on strength and what the opps have bid - for example: (1C)
1S (X) P (2C), then 2D would be weakish and X would show a good
diamond hand [2S would show a good spade hand]. In the meantime, we
may have kept them out of a making 2S/2H partscore.
Balanced/Unbalanced 5d4c - 1N followed by a cue...
5d4+h0-2s - 1H followed if necessary by 2D...
Again - not for everyone.
Kurt
Bertil
How does this method or convention differ from the well known Kenney
Method from his book of 1965?
If you are not familiar with it go to Google or to the Bridge Guys.
Bertil
Chris
> emptive value and it allows the opps to play X as 4card major and 1M
> as a 5carder. And you don't pass with a decent diamond hand UNLESS it
> is exactly 1=3=6=3 [and then they have the master suit and are
> unlikely to venture into clubs]. Otherwise a GOOD diamond overcall can
> be shown in many ways with the other available bids.
The other side is that being able to show diamonds immediately is
often useful if partner can raise (your suit outranks theirs) or if it
induces him to lead a diamond (especially against a notrump contract
by responder).
Christopher Monsour
KWSchneider
Perhaps an improvement would be to eliminate the 2C bid as being clubs
and a major and replace it with a diamond suit [WEAK+] recognizing
that opener will often have clubs. I really feel that 1D should be a
GOOD balanced hand - and have used the bid successfully against short
and strong clubs.
Kurt
Bertil
In case you cannot find the Kenny Method please excuse my typo. It
should read Kennedy Method
Bertil
richard...@gmail.com
Take advantage of the fact that the opponents are using an artificial
opening and take them out of their comfort zone ASAP...
Over 1C, try something like the following
2S = 4 Spades and a longer minor
2H = weak jump shift in either Hearts or Spades
2D = 5 Diamonds and 4 cards in either major
2C = Michaels
1N = 5+ Hearts
1S = Canape overcall
1H = Canape overcall
1D = 5+ Spades
X = Power Double
KWSchneider
wrote:
And the difference between a 1S and 2S overcall? Wouldn't I overcall
1S with 4S and a 5+minor?
Kurt
Bob M
Is 1C forcing? A 1D opener shows at least 5 dia and denies a 4-card
major ! Does this mean that the “short club” opening of 1C may be a
hand that is void in clubs when opener is 4=4=5=0 (and possibly only
12 pts)?
What is the strength of a 1D response? If next had passes the 1C
opener what does responder bid with-
(01) K x x x (02) J x x x (03) J x x x (04) Q x x x x
K x x x J x x x J x x x Q x x
x x x x x x x x x x
J x x x x x x x x x
When defending the system how should 4th hand intervene after (1C)-P-
(1D)-? Should a double be penalty, lead directing or conventional such
as majors?
Bob M
richard...@gmail.com
1H and 1S show 3 card suits :-)
Anton van Uitert
ACBL policy is not logical imo. If you are allowed to benifit from
conventional opening bids, the opposition should be allowed to benefit
from conventional defenses.
Success with your quest!
Anton
Anton van Uitert
Anton van Uitert
Use overcalls and especially weak jumps a little more agressive over a
diamond response. Try some tricks to show 2-suiters like others have
mentioned. Opponents will frequently have troubles finding their 44 fits
for they used a whole round of bidding to prevent finding such a fit :)
Anton
Nick France
>
> - Show quoted text -
to say acbl is not logical is like saying a politician is not honest.
A truism but everyone knows it :)
The question is are other country's policies as inconsistant as the
acbl.
Nick France
smn
Thanks , Yes Bob, 1c is artificial and forcing and 12+ hcp ,1d is
waiting with a 4 card major or could be diamonds with no better bid,
responder bid of 1h or 1s shows 5 cards + as in your example (04) I
guess the other examples are 1d responses .smn
smn
Thanks Kurt for sharing this with me , What do we bid over 1c with a
strong (o 13+) and unbalanced hand.And when you say weak for those 2
suiters,does that mean just < an opener (13+) .smn
Larry
Please read my post again, it supersedes the GCC.
Larry
Chris
Please see the ACBL's website which does not appear to acknowledge
your r.g.b. posts as superseding its convention charts. :)
Christopher Monsour
KWSchneider
KWSchneider
1) All strong [16+] hands start with an X if balanced or 1M if not
2) I neglected to indicate that 1N is WEAK+
Kurt
KWSchneider
Anton,
You ARE allowed to benefit from opposition's conventional defenses -
you now can use a conventional response system.
For example, in the ACBL, once an overcall of X is bid [conventional],
you are allowed to use ANY response system - like transfers, etc.
Kurt
Bob M
>
> - Show quoted text -
Do I understand this correctly? A 1H or 1S shows EXACTLY a 3-card
suit? I take it that this also means that 1H=3-0 spades and 1S=2-0
hearts.
Bob M
Andrew
> Hi , At the local club some have started using the Montreal
> Relay .Opener bids 1c which is alerted as artificial (opening count)
> and denying a 5 card major.If responder bids one of a major it shows
> at least 5 cards.If responder has a 4 card major or no better bid she
> bids 1d .Then opener can bid his 4 card major if he has one. They also
> said that a 1 d opener shows at least 5 diamonds and denies a even a 4
> card major.
> Well I have read that this convention is vulnerable to
> interference.What's the best defence.For example what does a double of
> 1c show ? I guess overcalls can be natural but my partners do fancey
> things after weak notrump or strong club (like transfers -1c(1d) is a
> transfer to hearts.etc.
>
The weakness of the Montreal Relay is the 1C opening, which is made on
any balanced hand outside the 1NT opening range and on exactly 4-4-4-1
hands with a stiff club. The MR players will have more difficulty
competing in a minor suit. I dont think you need any particular
defense against this convention, just bid bid when you have one or
both majors and let them struggle to find their minor suit fits.
Andrew
Michael Angelo Ravera
wrote:
If you recognize the Montreal Relay's similarity to Stayman, after
1C[2+C]-(P)-1D[INQ M], you could use something similar to my Simple
Major Reversal Technique against Standard Stayman ("SMaRTASS):
2S=6+hearts, PRE
2H=5+spades, SemiConst
2D=9+cards in diamonds and a major
2C=9+cards in clubs and another
1NT=One or both minors
1S=5+hearts
1H=4+spades
Double: Any Strong hand.
Chris
wrote:
I understand why you want to switch the majors at the one-level. But
why use artificial preempts when you could use 2H = weak both majors,
2S = 5+ natural preempt, 3H = 6+ natural preempt?
Christopher Monsour
Bob M
The OP stated that a 1D opener promises a 5+ dia suit and denies a 4-
card major. If so, in addition to a 1C opener being a 4=4=4=1 hand it
could be a hand with a void in clubs such as 4=4=5=0! Can you imagine
opening 1C with xx, AQxx, AQxxxxx, void!! Even with xx, AQxx, KJxxxxx,
void I want to be able to open 1D no matter what system I’m playing.
I think the writer here has a good point about not needing a
particular defense against the MR system. However, I think intervening
after (1C)-P-(1D)-? could be very effective and might even burry a 4-4
major fit they may have.
Bob M
Bob M
>
> > 2C is natural
> > 2D shows the majors
>
> > Eric Leong
>
> Defense to short club systems are a problem in ACBLand. Conventional
> defenses are not allowed despite several of us e-mailing ACBL for
> clarification and arguing for 'NT like' defenses.
>
> Larry
Is the 1C opener in the MR system considered to be a “short club”? A
popular “short club” when playing strong nt (15-17) is that a 1C
opener may only have a doubleton club but only for balanced 12-14 and
18-19 pt hands. The hand is usually a 4=4=3=2 hand but some players
also include 4=3(3=4)=4=2 hands. It surprises me if the writer is
correct that the ACBL does not allow the opponents to use conventional
calls against a “short club” opening in a CCG game.
I was kibitzing Bart Bramley recently on BBO playing with other
notable experts in a social game (imps). I seen his expert partner
open 1C on a hand which was alerted as “2+”. The “short club” is
certainly not only played by “beginners”. On this particular hand next
hand passed and Bramley responded 1D which was alerted as “heart
transfer”. I believe transfer responses to a 1C opener is not allowed
in an ACBL CCG game? Pity, because transfer responses seem to be an
efficient way of responding to a 1C opener.
It really doesn’t matter what bidding system Bramley uses, he can
certainly play the cards. He seems to be able to place the opps cards
so well and it’s a treat to watch his skillfull dummy and def card
play.
Bob M
KWSchneider
> On Sep 25, 10:13 am, Larry <lnlow...@flash.net> wrote:
>
<snipped>
> Is the 1C opener in the MR system considered to be a “short club”?
Technically, any 1C opening that is NOT strong and artificial, and
could contain less than 3clubs is considered a "short" club. Some
"short" clubs are more artificial than others, just as some nebulous
diamonds [in a strong club system] are more artificial than others.
The difference between an "alertable" short club [or diamond] and an
"announcable" short club [or diamond] is the minimum length guarantee
- announcable guarantees at least 2. Alertable could be a short as
zero.
> A popular “short club” when playing strong nt (15-17) is that a 1C
> opener may only have a doubleton club but only for balanced 12-14
> and 18-19 pt hands. The hand is usually a 4=4=3=2 hand but some
> players also include 4=3(3=4)=4=2 hands. It surprises me if the writer
> is correct that the ACBL does not allow the opponents to use
> conventional calls against a “short club” opening in a CCG game.
The ACBL is divided on this issue [see the entire thread] - hence we
can take the position that ANY short club or short diamond is
conventional - and hence allowing ANY defense.
> I was kibitzing Bart Bramley recently on BBO playing with other
> notable experts in a social game (imps). I seen his expert partner
> open 1C on a hand which was alerted as “2+”. The “short club” is
> certainly not only played by “beginners”. On this particular hand next
> hand passed and Bramley responded 1D which was alerted as “heart
> transfer”. I believe transfer responses to a 1C opener is not allowed
> in an ACBL CCG game? Pity, because transfer responses seem to
> be an efficient way of responding to a 1C opener.
This is NOT GCC legal but I would suspect that there is a significant
amount of inertia to make it legal.
Kurt
KWSchneider
In the MR system [and Kennedy], I believe a 1D response shows a
unknown 4card major. It is definitely artificial and allows ANY
defense over it as well. It is too late IMO, to intervene since opener
has any number of bids to show his/her 4card major and by extension
not worry about 3card majors, since responder has denied a 5card
major.
The "best" overcall in this situation [(1C) P (1D) ??] would be a
nebulous 1N [showing either majors or minors] or a super-canape 1S,
neither of which will support a negative X. A natural 2m would be
difficult as well, since opener needs to have both majors to X.
Kurt
Michael Angelo Ravera
>
> - Show quoted text -
The idea is to make opponents have to bid beyond their comfort level
when you have one major and they have the other.
If you have both majors, you probably want to defend, at least if they
decide to play in the wrong major. So, it is best to keep quiet and
beat them or try to play or defend 1NT. With a preempt in both majors,
you will very likely get another chance to bid, if you want to be in
the auction. No one who plays Montreal Relay of whom I am aware has
any intention of bidding past 1NT. If fit goes (1C[2+])-P-(1D[INQ M])-
P; 1NT[no 4CM], nothing stops you from bidding 2D/2H to show both
majors or making a natural constuctive or preemptive call at the 2-
level and it might end the auction right there.
Andrew
Not according to the OP. According to the OP, the 1D responses shows
either:
--any hand with one or both 4-card majors
--no major and a hand unsuitable for any other call (perhaps, xx, xxx,
AQxxx, xxx)
> It is definitely artificial and allows ANY
> defense over it as well. It is too late IMO, to intervene
I don't think it is too late to intervene. Responder has not clarified
whether or which major he holds. Further, they have not clarified if
or whether they fit in either minor. The opponents are in a much more
tenuous bidding situation than standard players where the club opening
and response have shown suits.
Andrew
Chris
Well, bidding 2S instead of 2H with the spade preempt, and 3H instead
of 2S with the heart preempt, makes them bid even further beyond their
comfort level, without committing the preempter to a higher-level
contract. It also means that when responder doubles to show the other
majors, it is opener rather than advancer who is under pressure. (Not
to mention that you give responder a free balancing action when he
passes initially and advancer corrects to overcaller's real suit.)
This situation is a poster-child for why natural preempts are usually
best. Artificial preempts are less effective both because they take
pressure off the opponents and because they don't take up as much
bidding space.
There are lots of good reasons for *constructive* bids to show a known
suit other than the one bid, but it is seldom right for a preempt to
do so.
> If you have both majors, you probably want to defend, at least if they
> decide to play in the wrong major.
What if they decide to play a large number of clubs? (Or diamonds,
for that matter.)
> So, it is best to keep quiet and
> beat them or try to play or defend 1NT. With a preempt in both majors,
> you will very likely get another chance to bid, if you want to be in
> the auction. No one who plays Montreal Relay of whom I am aware has
> any intention of bidding past 1NT. If fit goes (1C[2+])-P-(1D[INQ M])-
> P; 1NT[no 4CM], nothing stops you from bidding 2D/2H to show both
> majors or making a natural constuctive or preemptive call at the 2-
> level and it might end the auction right there.
*Most* opponents playing Montreal relay might be intending to rebid 2C
or 3C over a one-level response, and opener would often be reraising a
club raise (and occasionally responder will jump-raise clubs). If you
want to make 2H a constructive rather than a weak bid, and choose a
major to preempt in (or pass) with a weak 5-5, that makes sense, but
with a 5-5 and even a handful of valeus (e.g., a subminimum opening)
you need to show your suits before the three-level.
Christopher Monsour
Chris
I should also note that, assuming 1C is forcing (which you appear to
assume here), then the hand you really can afford to pass with is the
*strong balanced* hand. Thus, you should probably replace your power
double with something else (which might be 13-15 balanced, or might be
old-fashioned takeout of clubs). With a strong balanced hand, you can
pass 1C and play Fishbein next round. With strong unbalanced hands,
you can start with simple overcalls since you've designed most of them
not to be passable.
Christopher Monsour
richard...@gmail.com
couple years back.
I was playing in a Swiss Team event with a pickup partner. We had
good team mates and were in first place going into the final round.
We were white versus red and the opponent's started the auction, (1C)
- P - (1D).
I decided to interject 1S holding something like
S KJx
H xx
D xxxx
C Kxxx
LHO looked somewhat pained and passed. Partner raise to 2S, RHO
doubled and it got passed out...
Partner tabled (approximately)
S Axx
H Axx
D xxxxx
C xx
The opponent never manged to untangle their tricks and I ended up
making a very silly contract on a cross ruff.
You should have seent their faces when all their trump started
crashing on each other.
Michael Angelo Ravera
I wasn't assuming a forcing 1C, but trying to make the best of it once
they have the 1D on the table. I WAS assuming that the 1D Montreal
Relay response was forcing, if artifical (as is required by ACBL GCC).
Randomly passing the 1D response would be an illegal psyche.
We haven't anywhere in this thread described what you should do in
the direct seat over a 1C that could be short to prevent them from
using the Montreal Relay. There are other active threads where a
discussion of what methods are permitted in the ACBL ater a possibly
short 1C opener. Once such goal should be to keep opponents from
finding their 4-4 major suit fit at a comfortable level.
Andrew
As for methods in this auction, I think basically natural bidding is
fine. The only question is how you should define the double. Since
neither opponent has shown the suit they have bid, using double for
both majors seems wrong.
Perhaps double shows a strong NT. a 1NT overcall could then show one
minor 6+ and 2m calls could show the minor plus a major. That might
allow you to enter the auction a little more often.
Andrew
Andrew
Maybe 1NT can show either one minor or both majors...
Andrew
Larry
> On Sep 28, 11:20 am, Bob M <bobridge...@rogers.com> wrote:
[snip]
>
> > I was kibitzing Bart Bramley recently on BBO playing with other
> > notable experts in a social game (imps). I seen his expert partner
> > open 1C on a hand which was alerted as “2+”. The “short club” is
> > certainly not only played by “beginners”. On this particular hand next
> > hand passed and Bramley responded 1D which was alerted as “heart
> > transfer”. I believe transfer responses to a 1C opener is not allowed
> > in an ACBL CCG game? Pity, because transfer responses seem to
> > be an efficient way of responding to a 1C opener.
>
> This is NOT GCC legal but I would suspect that there is a significant
> amount of inertia to make it legal.
>
> Kurt
If the 1C opening bid promises 15 or more hcp, then transfer responses
are legal in GCC game.
Larry
KWSchneider
This 1C opening didn't... (:->)
Cheers,
Kurt
Bob M
I don’t know, but maybe this is good advice; don’t try to do “too
much” when they open 1C. Don’t forget to include a void in clubs when
a 4=4=5=0 is opened 1C! According to the OP an opening bid of 1D shows
at least a 5-card suit and denies a 4-card major!!
Is this Montreal Relay system super scientific or super silly? I
imagine a well practiced MR pair would do well in a matchpoint game
with their system against opponents who were not “prepared” to defend
against their 1C opener and 1D response.
Bob M
Raija D
"Larry" <lnlo...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:f3e46a92-fd93-4c9b...@l20g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
smn
Yes there is a good pair using MR at our club several others lately -I
don't know where they are getting it from (book,article etc) and I
don't think it is a good way to play .With one partner we decided to
leave 1n ((14+to18-) balanced and double over 1c to show 16+
unbalanced ,a 1 diamond overcall to show 13-15 HCP balanced (2d as a
good overcall
1h,and 1s overcall normal and 2 level overcall weak .I am trying to
get into the auction with 1h or 1s overcall as much as possible (maybe
6hcp) and even overcall after 1d response more often.I'll have to wait
a while until it comes up some more to see if it helps.smn