RESULT - proposal to remove rec.games.bolo defeated (3-3-0-1)

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Big-8 Management Board

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Jul 14, 2009, 1:23:45 PM7/14/09
to
The formal board vote taken on this proposal was 3 in favor,
3 opposed, no abstentions, with one board member not voting.

Prior to the vote, it was agreed that a tie vote would mean
that the proposal was defeated.

Relevant material from the RFD:

Newsgroups Line:

rec.games.bolo The networked strategy war game Bolo.

Distribution:

news.announce.newgroups
news.groups.proposals
rec.games.bolo
news.groups

Proponent: Big-8 Management Board <bo...@big-8.org>

Charter:

To allow the discussion of topics and posting of software
related to the game "Bolo," by Stuart Cheshire, originally
for the Macintosh.

Rationale for removal:

The newsgroup seems to be defunct. The last ontopic thread
was in February, 2007 and the last ontopic post was
<220320081806208221%erfc...@usa.net> from 22 March 2008.

The board is interested in closing unmoderated groups that
have, in the past, been used for distribution of binaries.
The charter seems to envisage "posting of software." The
actual binaries may have been small maps of the game.

The game is not dead. The latest version was released on 13
February 2009: <http://www.winbolo.com/>. Another
active version is available at <http://www.nubolo.net>.

History of the Group:

rec.games.bolo is an unmoderated newsgroup which passed
its vote for creation by 447:26 as reported in
news.announce.newgroups on 30 Nov 1993.

<http://www.faqs.org/faqs/games/bolo-faq/part1/>

Discussion:

* Feedback:

** Mildly opposed to removal

Robert Uhl
Message-ID: <m3ocsbn...@latakia.octopodial-chrome.com>
Message-ID: <m31vp2f...@latakia.octopodial-chrome.com>

** Opposed to removal

Mark Kramer
Message-ID: <h23fbc$36v$1...@vulture.killfile.org>

Bob Noel
Message-ID: <nospam-61C3E3....@nntp.aioe.org>

C.R. Osterwald
Message-ID: <290620091640382825%erfc...@usa.net>

Igenlode Wordsmith
Message-ID: <e8257b1c-0229-4ff7...@18g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>

Minhiriath
Message-ID: <f0100ef0-38b3-4eec...@l34g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>

Nemokrad
Message-ID: <0b317837-cc88-4807...@j12g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>

** Change the charter instead of removing the group
Helge Nareid
Message-ID: <2obi451a78dg3qdua...@4ax.com>


** Favor removal

Dave Sill
Message-ID: <7arp10F...@mid.individual.net>

Marty Moleski
Message-ID: <SPedndD5Oox8R9XX...@supernews.com>

** Not worth the hassle

Steve Bonine
Message-ID: <7b2locF...@mid.individual.net>


History of this RFD:

2009-07-14 RESULT: proposal defeated
2009-06-25 Removal RFD / Last Call for Comments

Robert Uhl

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Jul 14, 2009, 2:43:17 PM7/14/09
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Well, that's good news! So, now that our newsgroup is still alive:
how's Bolo doing? Perhaps the authors of WinBolo, LinBolo and NuBolo
might point their users this direction?

--
The shortest possible instant of time, far shorter than the so-called
'Planck time,' is the interval between hitting a key and realizing that
one should NOT have hit that key.

Peter J Ross

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Jul 20, 2009, 8:21:15 PM7/20/09
to
In news.groups on Sun, 19 Jul 2009 16:03:53 -0600, C.R. Osterwald
<erfc...@usa.net> wrote:

> Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>
>>Steve Crook <st...@mixmin.net> wrote:
>
>>>In the case of rec.games.bolo, there is no checking done, it's
>>>whitelisted to allow all binaries of any size. It could probably be
>>>tightened up if I had an example bolo file to work with.
>>
>>Someone would have to supply you with a file that had been posted years ago.
>
> Message-ID: <aga0ri$l8c$1...@SonOfMaze.dpo.uab.edu>
>
> Maps were always posted as Macintosh BinHex files, which start with the
> phrase:
>
> (This file must be converted with BinHex 4.0)

Is the map format for the latest OSS version of Bolo the same? It
wouldn't surprise me if they now used something like XML, which is
plain text.

[xposted]

--
PJR :-)
slrn newsreader v0.9.9p1: http://slrn.sourceforge.net/
extra slrn documentation: http://slrn-doc.sourceforge.net/
newsgroup name validator: http://pjr.lasnobberia.net/usenet/validator

Message has been deleted

Adam H. Kerman

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Jul 20, 2009, 10:40:13 PM7/20/09
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C.R. Osterwald <erfc...@usa.net> wrote:

>For the record, posting maps was an issue when r.g.b was created
>because of the previous history in its predecessor, alt.netgames.bolo,
>whereby DejaNews because the de facto map archive. Typing a map name
>into its search capability instantly led you to the map itself. People
>did not want this to change with r.g.b. This of course all went down
>the flumes when DN was absorbed by the Master Control Program.

I don't understand what you guys were doing in 1993. There are archived
newgroup messages for both alt.netgames.bolo and rec.games.bolo. The
archived newgroup message for a.n.b notes the discussion of what the
group should be named, so it's hard to say if a.n.b existed before 1993.

What exactly was going on?

Message has been deleted

Robert Uhl

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Jul 20, 2009, 11:24:04 PM7/20/09
to
Peter J Ross <p...@example.invalid> writes:
>
> Is the map format for the latest OSS version of Bolo the same? It
> wouldn't surprise me if they now used something like XML, which is
> plain text.

XML would very much be the Wrong Thing for Bolo maps. Basically they're
jsut run-length encoded grids of bytes, and fairly small (what, 256x256
cells?).

Although you're right--it doesn't particular surprise me when folks use
XML even if it doesn't particularly make a lot of sense...

--
Robert A. Uhl
That's not fair. Alternatives to MySQL are found in the 'wind-up toys'
aisle, next to the Godzilla that shoots sparks out its mouth.
--Eric Schwartz

Adam H. Kerman

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Jul 21, 2009, 12:05:47 AM7/21/09
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C.R. Osterwald <erfc...@usa.net> wrote:
>Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>C.R. Osterwald <erfc...@usa.net> wrote:

>a.n.b predated me, so I can't give any information about that
>discussion. All I can say is that it was available before r.g.b came
>into being; as I recall this was at least 9 months. What was the date
>of newgroup msg for r.g.b? I remember Peter Lewis running the RFD, he
>could very likely remember something about a.n.b.

December 6, 1993.

Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Jul 21, 2009, 1:08:21 AM7/21/09
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On Mon, 20 Jul 2009 21:24:04 -0600, Robert Uhl <eadm...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in
<m31voak...@latakia.octopodial-chrome.com>:

> ... it doesn't particular surprise me when folks use


>XML even if it doesn't particularly make a lot of sense...

I want to learn YAML.

I printed out the cheat sheet on card stock
earlier this afternoon.

I'm going to put some examples on the back of
it.

I don't know whether YAML would be any good
for bolo maps. I do find it very legible
for other data structures.

Marty
--
Co-chair of the Big-8 Management Board (B8MB) <http://www.big-8.org>
Unless otherwise indicated, I speak for myself, not for the Board.

Message has been deleted

Adam H. Kerman

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Jul 21, 2009, 9:15:18 PM7/21/09
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>>December 6, 1993.

>If a.n.b was newgrouped in 1993, it would have been early in the year.
>It was my introduction to Usenet.

There is a single newgroup message for alt.netgames.bolo in the archives
dated March 18, 1993. However, the message discusses the results of a straw
poll of what the Bolo group should be called, rather an odd thing to put
in a newgroup message. I'll guess that the group had been created
earlier than that on a number of servers. Either there wasn't an earlier
newgroup message or it didn't get archived for whatever reason.

Peter J Ross

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Jul 24, 2009, 3:29:51 PM7/24/09
to
In news.groups on Mon, 20 Jul 2009 20:22:50 -0600, C.R. Osterwald
<erfc...@usa.net> wrote:

> Peter J Ross <p...@example.invalid> wrote:
>
>>In news.groups on Sun, 19 Jul 2009 16:03:53 -0600, C.R. Osterwald
>><erfc...@usa.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Steve Crook <st...@mixmin.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>In the case of rec.games.bolo, there is no checking done, it's
>>>>>whitelisted to allow all binaries of any size. It could probably be
>>>>>tightened up if I had an example bolo file to work with.
>>>>
>>>>Someone would have to supply you with a file that had been posted years ago.
>>>
>>> Message-ID: <aga0ri$l8c$1...@SonOfMaze.dpo.uab.edu>
>>>
>>> Maps were always posted as Macintosh BinHex files, which start with the
>>> phrase:
>>>
>>> (This file must be converted with BinHex 4.0)
>>
>>Is the map format for the latest OSS version of Bolo the same? It
>>wouldn't surprise me if they now used something like XML, which is
>>plain text.
>

> Yes, the format is the same; maps from 1993 are still compatible. The
> map data was always contained in the Macintosh data fork, so they are
> also compatible with WinBolo (and LinBolo). Because of the number of
> maps available (thousands), converting to XML would be painful.

Is the BinHex format encumbered by patents? If so, the OSS version of
Bolo may have some issues to overcome.

> For the record, posting maps was an issue when r.g.b was created
> because of the previous history in its predecessor, alt.netgames.bolo,
> whereby DejaNews because the de facto map archive. Typing a map name
> into its search capability instantly led you to the map itself. People
> did not want this to change with r.g.b. This of course all went down
> the flumes when DN was absorbed by the Master Control Program.

Binaries in rec.games.bolo are a non-issue for news.groups anyway.
Nobody posts binaries in RGB, as even some of the Bambies seem to have
noticed.

Peter J Ross

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Jul 24, 2009, 3:41:13 PM7/24/09
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In news.groups on Tue, 21 Jul 2009 01:08:21 -0400, Martin X. Moleski,
SJ <mol...@canisius.edu> wrote:

<...>

> I don't know whether YAML would be any good
> for bolo maps.

Neither do I, but it seems that Bolo players are happy to use BinHex.
It probably ain't broke, so we probably don't need to fix it.

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