SFB construction?
Andrew Juell
system I saw on the Net a while ago? Anyone have a copy? Has anyone
else designed their own system/s? Thanks...
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James A. Henderson
silly. The problem is in knowing how they compare to other ships (e.g. BPV).
What you need is the ultra-secret BPV formula.
If you hear anything, let me know.
Jim Henderson
wo...@unomaha.edu
Petri Juhani Piira
> Designing ships is easy. Just make them make sense and don't get
>silly. The problem is in knowing how they compare to other ships (e.g. BPV).
>What you need is the ultra-secret BPV formula.
> If you hear anything, let me know.
I do not believe there is any secret BPV formula - and even if there
is it does not work... just see if you can win with 10 G2 against
a B10 :-)
It would be easy to find the cost of a given systems box, there must
be so many different ships that it is possible to make a group of
equations and solve all the unknowns. But I doubt that it would
give consistent results, given that the BPVs are apparently chosen
arbitrarily.
On the other hand, I think it might be a good idea to rank all the
current ships on their ability to cause damage at different ranges,
and their survivability. Then it would be possible to design
balanced scenarios and balanced new ships. The official BPV values
are so skewed that they can be taken only as general guidelines, IMHO.
E.g a federation CA can generate an average of X1 points of damage at
range 1, X2 points at range 8, X3 points at range 15 and can take
Y internal damage before it is seriously crippled - so its value is
((X1 + X2 + X3)/3 + Y)... Just of the top of my head, I think it would
be something like (100 + 40 + 10)/3 + 50 = 100 ADVP (Average Damage
Value Points :-)
Drones seldom do damage, (except in anchor situations) so they can't
be calculated as their full strength, but each drone takes 4 points
to destroy and thus shield the firing ship from enemy direct firepower.
And some drones hit, so a type I-M drone launcher could be calculated
as worth of say 6 ADVP. Four points are the defensive valua, and 2
points reflect the fact that drones hit once in a while.
Also, multi-turn arming should be averaged, and if the ship has not
power to arm all of it's weapons it could be penalized by some amount
of ADVPs. Hmm... maybe I should try to count a couple of examples?
Petri
pp...@niksula.hut.fi
djs...@hermes.cam.ac.uk
> I do not believe there is any secret BPV formula - and even if there
> is it does not work... just see if you can win with 10 G2 against
> a B10 :-)
There is such a formula (see CL#14), it's meant to work with sensible
forces, and command limits rule out 10 G2 anyway.
> E.g a federation CA can generate an average of X1 points of damage at
> range 1, X2 points at range 8, X3 points at range 15 and can take
> Y internal damage before it is seriously crippled - so its value is
> ((X1 + X2 + X3)/3 + Y)... Just of the top of my head, I think it would
> be something like (100 + 40 + 10)/3 + 50 = 100 ADVP (Average Damage
> Value Points :-)
>
> Drones seldom do damage, (except in anchor situations) so they can't
> be calculated as their full strength, but each drone takes 4 points
> to destroy and thus shield the firing ship from enemy direct firepower.
> And some drones hit, so a type I-M drone launcher could be calculated
> as worth of say 6 ADVP. Four points are the defensive valua, and 2
> points reflect the fact that drones hit once in a while.
>
> Also, multi-turn arming should be averaged, and if the ship has not
> power to arm all of it's weapons it could be penalized by some amount
> of ADVPs. Hmm... maybe I should try to count a couple of examples?
Goodness me. What about labs (useful vs. drones)? Battery arrays (more
useful on plasma boats)? Firing arcs (overlapping/ gross width)? Tractors?
Transporters (no use having 8 TRAN and 5 BP)? Excess power? How useful is
that excess power? Ship separation? Possibility of mutiny? Nimbleness?
Fighters? Define seriously crippled, won't you. Option Mounts??? Tugs? PA
panels vs. shields? Shield strengths? Uneven shields? Scout channels? PFs?
Bases?
You took all that into account? Well done. You now have what SVC's
formula would look like if SVC hadn't been doing SFB for the past 15 years.
IMHO, this is a waste of time.
David Damerell, Gorn Confederation Academy. djs...@hermes.cam.ac.uk
Real Life: Trinity College, Cambridge. |These opinions are mine alone.
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TV: Any Star Trek | WARG: Star Fleet Battles | Music: Queen & classical
Donald S Miller
their (Task Force Games) BPV's:
1. Add together the box value for each box on the SSD (values found below).
2. Apply the following increases: +50% if the ship is a 1X design, +30% if the
ship has a cloaking device, +10% for stealth (and others that I forget right
now, sorry!)
3. Divide the result by 2.5. This is the Economic BPV of the ship.
Box values (some of these are ripped from SFB Commander's edition annexes):
Hull (F,A) 1
Hull (C) 1.2
Cargo 1
Tran 1
Trac 1
Trac-Mech Link 2
Shuttle 1 for each box, 1 for each bay, 2 for each admin shuttle
Fighter Box +1 more (but don't pay the 2 admin shuttle cost)
Launch Tube +1 more
Lab 2
Probe 2
Repair 3
Hold (2X) 4
Armor 1.5
Bridge 3
AuxCon 3
Emer 3
Flag 3
Scty (extra) 2
Btty (1 pt.) 1
Btty (5 pt.) 5
Warp (L,R) 4 (5 for orion)
Warp (C) 5 (6 for orion)
Impulse 3 (4 for orion)
PF Warp Pack 3
APR 2
AWR 3
Shields 1/6
PA Panel 4
Sensor "6" 2
Sensor "5"-"1" 1
Sensor "0" 0 (no more than 1 per ship)
Scanner "0" 2
Scanner "1"-"8" 1
Scanner "9" 0 (no more than 1 per ship)
DamCon equal to number in box, no more than one "0" per ship
ExcDam 2 for every box beyond: hull/3+1 (round down)
Ph-1 2 *
Ph-2 1.5 *
Ph-3 1 *
Ph-4 4 *
Ph-G 3 *
Photon 5 *
Disr 4 *
Fusion 2 *
Hellbore 8 *
PPD 20 *
Pl-D 5 *
Pl-F 4 * (-1 for each box beyond the first for ISC)
Pl-L 7 * (without 1X tech, this a Pl-G that cannot upgrade to Pl-S)
Pl-G 10 *
Pl-S 15 *
Pl-M 17.5 *
Pl-R 20 *
Drone-A 4
Drone-B 5
Drone-C 5
Drone-G 6
ADD 2 ?
ESG 8
SFG 20
Option Mount 6 * (side or wing), 8 * (centerline)
TRH 10 *
TRL 5 *
Hangar (size4) 28
Crew Unit 0.1
Passenger 0.05
Brd Prt 0.5
Deck Crew 0.5
Mauler 1 per power box connected to it
Spec Sensor 10
DisDev 15 ?
Web Generator 4 ?
Web Snare 6 ?
Web Caster 12 * ?
DERFACS 2
UIM 5 ?
OAKDISC 3 ?
x2 Drn Control 3
x3 Drn Control 5
* Apply the following multipliers based on the weapon's arc in degrees:
120 x1
150 x1.125
180 x1.25
210 x1.375
240 x1.5
270 x1.625
300 x1.75
330 x1.875
360 x2
Forgive any errors or omissions. There are probably a lot of systems I have
forgotten (I am doing this by memory believe it or not). If there is any
interest I can get my real list from home and post it (that list is much longer
and includes a FASA Star Trek to SFB conversion). This is roughly based on
the old (S3.3) in Commander's Edition but with a constant divisor. This
system has some obvious problems, but it does give BPV's usually within 20%
of their reported TFG value (again, with certain exceptions).
Donald Miller
Petri Juhani Piira
<djs...@hermes.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>In article <2qodjq$5...@sauna.cs.hut.fi> pp...@lk-hp-15.hut.fi (Petri Juhani Piira) writes:
>
>> I do not believe there is any secret BPV formula - and even if there
>> is it does not work... just see if you can win with 10 G2 against
>> a B10 :-)
>
>There is such a formula (see CL#14), it's meant to work with sensible
>forces, and command limits rule out 10 G2 anyway.
"Sensible forces" here means "forces with which the broken point
value formula works" :-) SFB is not a historical simulation -
it always bugs me when someone says that "historically the
Klingons did that and that.." That is no argument.
The point value should express ONLY how good a ship is killing
other ships. If it was done in a right way, then an equivalent
point value would mean a balanced battle, whatever the components
of a force are. For example, 20 G2 should be able to drone a B10
to death. 10 are not enough. SFB point system hints that 8 G2
have the same combat power as a B10. Obviously false.
< a simple attempt at calculating a ships worth deleted >
>
>Goodness me. What about labs (useful vs. drones)? Battery arrays (more
Every ship has some labs, transporters, overlapping fire-arcs, tractors
etc. So they tend to balance out. Their value is quite low... given
that some are included, the extras are mostly free hits.
>that excess power? Ship separation? Possibility of mutiny? Nimbleness?
Ship separation? Mutiny? If you have those, you have already lost...
>Fighters? Define seriously crippled, won't you. Option Mounts??? Tugs? PA
Fighters - experimentally... Seriously crippled, let's say half of
weapons and engines destroyed. Option mounts are of course worth
the weapon they have installed as the scenario begins - there is no
advantage having a Plasma F mounted in an option mount versus
having a standard Plasma - they are the same weapon.
> You took all that into account? Well done. You now have what SVC's
>formula would look like if SVC hadn't been doing SFB for the past 15 years.
>IMHO, this is a waste of time.
The problem with SVC formula is that it does not work. Please defeat
a Fed DD with an equivalent BPV ISC ship. If the point value thing
does not give balanced battles, a working one is needed.
>David Damerell, Gorn Confederation Academy. djs...@hermes.cam.ac.uk
Petri Piira
pp...@niksula.hut.fi
djs...@hermes.cam.ac.uk
>>
>>There is such a formula (see CL#14), it's meant to work with sensible
>>forces, and command limits rule out 10 G2 anyway.
>
> other ships. If it was done in a right way, then an equivalent
> point value would mean a balanced battle, whatever the components
> of a force are. For example, 20 G2 should be able to drone a B10
> to death. 10 are not enough. SFB point system hints that 8 G2
> have the same combat power as a B10. Obviously false.
Won't work. Let's see how good a D7D is relative to a D6: say its BPV will
be about 20% more. Now let's see how good a Gorn BC, with its abysmal drone
defence, is against a D7D: its BPV will probably be about 40% less. So the
D6 has a considerably higher BPV than the BC, and can kill it with ease? I
don't think so.
>< a simple attempt at calculating a ships worth deleted >
>
>>
>>Goodness me. What about labs (useful vs. drones)? Battery arrays (more
>
> Every ship has some labs, transporters, overlapping fire-arcs, tractors
> etc. So they tend to balance out. Their value is quite low... given
> that some are included, the extras are mostly free hits.
You've ignored a number of the things on this list. You're saying firing
arcs will average out? The FH+L/R arcs on the D5 aren't that much better
that the LF+L/RF+R arcs on the Kzinti CS and Hydrans? That's crazy. The
Fed's extra labs aren't useful against a Klink drone fleet? The tractors on
the Gorn BC have a low value? Many Gorn captains would pay through the nose
for an extra tractor: having them blown off before the Anchor is bad.
Battery arrays don't matter????? The ability of the D-hulls to do more H&R
than you can imagine is worthless?
>>that excess power? Ship separation? Possibility of mutiny? Nimbleness?
>
> Ship separation? Mutiny? If you have those, you have already lost...
Good. So where's your penalty for possibility of mutiny? H&R on Security can
force an early mutiny, almost forcing you to guard them.
>>Fighters? Define seriously crippled, won't you. Option Mounts??? Tugs? PA
>
> Fighters - experimentally... Seriously crippled, let's say half of
> weapons and engines destroyed. Option mounts are of course worth
> the weapon they have installed as the scenario begins - there is no
> advantage having a Plasma F mounted in an option mount versus
> having a standard Plasma - they are the same weapon.
That'll make economic calculations for Orions swapping weapons in a compaing
interesting...
>> You took all that into account? Well done. You now have what SVC's
>>formula would look like if SVC hadn't been doing SFB for the past 15 years.
>>IMHO, this is a waste of time.
>
> The problem with SVC formula is that it does not work. Please defeat
> a Fed DD with an equivalent BPV ISC ship. If the point value thing
> does not give balanced battles, a working one is needed.
The ISC DD is designed to work in fleets. As I've said above, the BPV can
only represent the ship's ability to fight where it is meant to: if you
slash the ISC DD BPV, echelons become much cheaper. A football (UK) player
may be a great forward, but if you put him in goal you asked for it.
David Damerell, Gorn Confederation Academy. djs...@hermes.cam.ac.uk