SFB Playing Aid
LESLIE LEBLANC
Computer illiterates?
Thomas A. Compter
> Hey care to share some of those self written programs with the rest of us
> Computer illiterates?
Now, I'm not sure if I just fell onto the last part of a conversation,
or what, but I have developed some pretty nifty (IMHO) spreadsheets for
Microsoft Excel 4.0 for the MAC that I would love to have playtested
by some real SFB players.
The "package" consists of 3 Spreadsheets; one is for a Energy
Allocation form that will do the math for you (nothing special there,
but convenient, nevertheless).
The second one is a turn counter, which is neat, because you just
mark the speeds that are being used in that turn, and type in the
impulse number, and it shows _1 line_ with all the speeds that move
during that impulse. Takes the confusion out of reading the chart,
because only 1 impulse is shown at a time, and only the "active"
speeds.
The last is my pride and joy, a damage allocation chart that is
true to the paper chart. You just type in the number of internal
hits, and the spreadsheet makes a list of damage for you. It
correctly adjusts for the boldfaced only-hit-once boxes.
Does anyone out there have a MAC or PC with Excel that is close
enough to their SFB playing area that they could try this out?
Also, is there a games.binaries area that would be appropriate for
posting this sort of thing?
If I see any response to this, I will try to uuencode or binhex it
up or whatever and post it.
BY the way, I could also make it into a version 5 file, but I figure
the lower common denominator would be best.
__________________________________________________
| ________ fh...@cuok.cameron.edu |
| |homas t.co...@genie.geis.com |
| Around the World with my Apple IIGS!|
|__________________________________________________|
Taki Kogoma
<1994Oct28.2...@cuok.cameron.edu> in rec.games.board:
>LESLIE LEBLANC (s2...@UNBSJ.CA) wrote:
>> Hey care to share some of those self written programs with the rest of us
>> Computer illiterates?
>
>Now, I'm not sure if I just fell onto the last part of a conversation,
>or what, but I have developed some pretty nifty (IMHO) spreadsheets for
>Microsoft Excel 4.0 for the MAC that I would love to have playtested
>by some real SFB players.
>
Be warned: The last time this topic came up, it was revealed that
ADB/TFG would consider the distribution of any such SFB-specific
computer play aids as an infringement of their trademarks. The
specifics were, in essence, "You are free to develop your own software
for your own use, but you may not distribute it for a price or free."
Frankly, I really don't know how they could enforce such an
injunction...
--
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk | "I'll get a life when someone
(Known to some as Taki Kogoma) | demonstrates that it would be
qu...@unm.edu | superior to what I have now."
Veteran of the '91 sf-lovers re-org. | -- Gym Quirk
John Hammer
>fh...@cuok.cameron.edu (Thomas A. Compter) was observed writing message
><1994Oct28.2...@cuok.cameron.edu> in rec.games.board:
>>LESLIE LEBLANC (s2...@UNBSJ.CA) wrote:
>>> Hey care to share some of those self written programs with the rest of us
>>> Computer illiterates?
>>
>>Now, I'm not sure if I just fell onto the last part of a conversation,
>>or what, but I have developed some pretty nifty (IMHO) spreadsheets for
>>Microsoft Excel 4.0 for the MAC that I would love to have playtested
>>by some real SFB players.
>>
>>The "package" consists of 3 Spreadsheets; [etc.]
>
>Be warned: The last time this topic came up, it was revealed that
>ADB/TFG would consider the distribution of any such SFB-specific
>computer play aids as an infringement of their trademarks. The
>specifics were, in essence, "You are free to develop your own software
>for your own use, but you may not distribute it for a price or free."
>
>Frankly, I really don't know how they could enforce such an
>injunction...
ADB can't stop you from selling a computer play aid any more than they can stop a pencil
company from selling unofficial pencils to SFBers. That doesn't mean that
someone distributing a computer play-aid, even for free, won't receive a note
from ADB, or maybe even from ADB's lawyer. However, such actions have no force
of law and can be safely ignored.
JMH
S. Keith Graham
>ADB can't stop you from selling a computer play aid any more than
>they can stop a pencil
>company from selling unofficial pencils to SFBers. That doesn't mean that
>someone distributing a computer play-aid, even for free, won't receive a note
>from ADB, or maybe even from ADB's lawyer. However, such actions have no force
>of law and can be safely ignored.
>JMH
However, Microsoft can stop you from selling "unofficial copies of
Microsoft Word".
If you include any copyrighted material from any of their rulebooks
beyond "fair use", you are violating their copyright.
For example, the Damage Allocation Chart, ship artwork, etc. are all
copyrighted by ADB. Distributing copies may or may not be fair use.
Copyright also gives someone a right to "derivitive works", such as
making a play out of a novel. I'd say making a computer game out of
a board game is a "derivitive work", although it hasn't been verified
in court.
He is right, in that a "Cease and Desist" letter isn't worth the
paper its written on, except that once it does go to court, they
may also sue for lawyers fees, etc. Its up to you if you want
to go to court.
I'm not a lawyer, but I'd suggest consulting one if you plan on
distributing anything, especially if you get a C&D letter.
Keith Graham
vap...@cad.gatech.edu
John Hammer
>In <38ur4o$k...@cmcl2.NYU.EDU> ham...@ACFcluster.nyu.edu (John Hammer) writes:
>
>>ADB can't stop you from selling a computer play aid any more than
>>they can stop a pencil
>>company from selling unofficial pencils to SFBers. That doesn't mean that
>>someone distributing a computer play-aid, even for free, won't receive a note
>>from ADB, or maybe even from ADB's lawyer. However, such actions have no force
>>of law and can be safely ignored.
>
>>JMH
>
>However, Microsoft can stop you from selling "unofficial copies of
>Microsoft Word".
>
Certainly. Copying anything, such as running it through a xerox machine, would
not be legally done.
>If you include any copyrighted material from any of their rulebooks
>beyond "fair use", you are violating their copyright.
>
>For example, the Damage Allocation Chart, ship artwork, etc. are all
>copyrighted by ADB. Distributing copies may or may not be fair use.
>
You can incorporate needed charts, equations, and other shuch things, as long
as they are necessary for the play aid to operate. Artwork in any form would
not be legal.
>Copyright also gives someone a right to "derivitive works", such as
>making a play out of a novel. I'd say making a computer game out of
>a board game is a "derivitive work", although it hasn't been verified
>in court.
>
You're possibly correct about the computer GAME - - - that hasn't been tested
in court, yet. However, the law is very clear when it comes to something like
a playing aid.
>He is right, in that a "Cease and Desist" letter isn't worth the
>paper its written on, except that once it does go to court, they
>may also sue for lawyers fees, etc. Its up to you if you want
>to go to court.
>
>I'm not a lawyer, but I'd suggest consulting one if you plan on
>distributing anything, especially if you get a C&D letter.
>
>Keith Graham
>vap...@cad.gatech.edu
Keith, without a doubt one should always consult a lawyer, preferably an
experienced specialist, should one receive a c-a-d letter.
JMH
D.J.S. Damerell
ADB could if the pencils had the DAC or phaser table or whatever
included. The 32 impulse movement chart is derived by an obvious
mathematical process but the legal system is too clueless for this to be
a definite OK. How many DAC systems have no DAC included?
More to the point, something you Americans seem to forget is that
morality != legality. It looks like SFB software makes Paramount get
snotty with ADB, and none of us want that, I hope. Write your own: it's
an excellent introductory pice of computer programming, IMHO.
--
David Damerell, GCV Sauricon. djs...@cus.cam.ac.uk RL: Trinity, Cambridge
WOODHAL2.WAD on infant2. CUWoCS President. METLMAZE.WAD sometime soonish.
|___| All people's aims are unreachable, and their struggles futile. |___|
| | | When you see this true of your own aims, life becomes a vacuum. | | |
Max_Natzet
giving things away is just fine. The laws are there to protect TFG from
having its market share eroded. Anything done within a small group of
people (without profit) is OK. I think R.G.B-SFB constitutes a small group,
even if only 1 in 10 of us ever post.
An example of gross criminality:
You just bought that new expansion, got some more SSDs and
photocopied them. You buddy sees them and asks if can have one. I'm
sure that most of us would say "sure, help yourself." Hey, its wrong but it
happens and I find ways to deal with my guilt.
An example of gross practicality:
Dave says that Americans must remember morality = legality. hmm.
But you must remember Dave - Americans also hate following rules. Its in our
blood & I'll guarantee that by the time this gets posted - all those "playing
aids" we started talking about have already been covertly swapped about. ;^)
Viva La Resistance
Max
Max Natzet, Mechanical Engineer
NASA/Wallops Flight Facility
E-Mail: Max_N...@CCMail.GSFC.NASA.GOV
D.J.S. Damerell
Max_Natzet <Max_N...@ccmail.gsfc.nasa.gov> wrote:
>An example of gross criminality:
> You just bought that new expansion, got some more SSDs and
>photocopied them. You buddy sees them and asks if can have one. I'm
>sure that most of us would say "sure, help yourself." Hey, its wrong but it
>happens and I find ways to deal with my guilt.
OTOH, giving out a few SSDs which encourages him to buy the product is a
Good Thing, illegal or no. Distributing the lot is a Bad Thing, illegal
or no.
>An example of gross practicality:
> Dave says that Americans must remember morality = legality. hmm.
No I didn't!!! I said you need to remember the two are NOT equal. Sheesh,
misquote me, go ahead.
>But you must remember Dave - Americans also hate following rules.
Yes, except when it suits them, like all those NRA people quoting the
Constitution (which is only 200 years old, after all, and thgerefore
perfectly relevant to the world today.) IMHO too many 'merkins think that
just because you can sue someone means you should.
>Its in our
>blood & I'll guarantee that by the time this gets posted - all those "playing
>aids" we started talking about have already been covertly swapped about. ;^)
1) I've said this is a bad idea because Paramount gets miffed with ADB.
2) I've also said it's a good programming exercise to write your own.
Max_Natzet
>>An example of gross criminality:
>> You just bought that new expansion, got some more SSDs and
>>photocopied them. You buddy sees them and asks if can have one. I'm
>>sure that most of us would say "sure, help yourself." Hey, its wrong but it
>>happens and I find ways to deal with my guilt.
>OTOH, giving out a few SSDs which encourages him to buy the product is a
>Good Thing, illegal or no. Distributing the lot is a Bad Thing, illegal
>or no.
agreed
>>An example of gross practicality:
>> Dave says [misquote deleted]
>No I didn't!!! I said you need to remember the two are NOT equal. Sheesh,
>misquote me, go ahead.
ooops, sorry.
>>But you must remember Dave - Americans also hate following rules.
>Yes, except when it suits them, like all those NRA people quoting the
>Constitution (which is only 200 years old, after all, and therefore
>perfectly relevant to the world today.) IMHO too many 'merkins think that
>just because you can sue someone means you should.
agreed. But those NRA bastards could use a good suin' tho. ;^)
In defense of the constitution though, its not meant to be a statement of
rules & laws, but a statement of values. Values don't lose their meaning over
time. The constitution is they way in which our courts decide the correctness
(?) of laws which are constantly being written/rewritten.
>>Its in our
>>blood & I'll guarantee that by the time this gets posted - all those "playing
>>aids" we started talking about have already been covertly swapped about. ;^)
>1) I've said this is a bad idea because Paramount gets miffed with ADB.
What does Paramount care about a Auto-DAC roller?
>2) I've also said it's a good programming exercise to write your own.
True, but in addition to hatin' rules, 'merkins hate redundancy.
True, but in addition to hatin' rules, 'merkins hate redundancy.
glen...@cybercom.com
IM>>Yes, except when it suits them, like all those NRA people quoting
IM>the >Constitution (which is only 200 years old, after all, and
IM>therefore >perfectly relevant to the world today.) IMHO too many
IM>'merkins think that >just because you can sue someone means you
IM>should.
IM>agreed. But those NRA bastards could use a good suin' tho. ;^)
IM>In defense of the constitution though, its not meant to be a
IM>statement of rules & laws, but a statement of values. Values don't
IM>lose their meaning over
IM>time. The constitution is they way in which our courts decide the
IM>correctness
IM>(?) of laws which are constantly being written/rewritten.
It amazes me the attitude that many people have about the NRA (BTW I am
not a member). The group is made up mostly by people that served this
nation in many of this nation's wars. Wars that many of us play at in
our boardgames.
These people all put their lives at risk to defend the constitution and
I believe that they have the right to bring up their rights. This was
the greatest nation on earth. No other nation has even approached us.
This was based as you stated on the values that our forefathers handed
down to us.
I find it rather funny that the orginal poster of this message thinks
that older things have no revelance to today. That is ridiculous! The
reason that the world has advanced is becauuse of all the knowledge that
has been preserved. The Bible for example is the most revelant book
today which goes back to the beginning of mankind and still disscusses
every problem that we face in our lives.
I mean gee.... I find that the older messages here still help guide me
in how to win <GRIN>
Glenn Nelsen Glennnel.cybercom.com
glen...@cybercom.com
---
þ CmpQwk #UNREGþ UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY
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74 Lines & 16 Gigs Online - Internet Access - Telnet to: 199.171.196.2
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Jonathan Springer
> [much cut] Write your own: it's
>an excellent introductory pice of computer programming, IMHO.
A good exercise, sure, but not really introductory. To do a real
damage allocation program you have to include an SSD database. The
program has to know how many of each kind of box a ship has, and keep
track of the damage, so that it knows when you are out of forward
hull, etc. (Otherwise you have more of a computer die-roller.) For a
former non-programmer, this may be too daunting.
Jonathan Springer
jcsg...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Max_Natzet
>IM>Yes, except when it suits them, like all those NRA people quoting
>IM>the Constitution (which is only 200 years old, after all, and
>IM>therefore perfectly relevant to the world today.) IMHO too many
>IM>'merkins think that just because you can sue someone means you
>IM>should.
>Max>agreed. But those NRA bastards could use a good suin' tho. ;^)
>Max>In defense of the constitution though, its not meant to be a
>M>statement of rules & laws, but a statement of values. Values don't
>M>lose their meaning over
>M>time. The constitution is the way in which our courts decide the
>M>correctness (?) of laws which are constantly being written/rewritten.
>Glenn> It amazes me the attitude that many people have about the NRA (BTW I
>G>am not a member). The group is made up mostly by people that served
>G>this nation in many of this nation's wars. Wars that many of us play at
>G>in our boardgames.
Yes, but this group of sheep is lead by right wing wackos who believe we
should have the right to own cop killer bullets and less control over guns
than we do for our automobiles. I have the utmost respect for veterans, but
they had to give their guns back the Army when they come home.
I also think the NRA does veterans a disservice by associating their name with
them. I fully support the Veterans Administration, the Veterans of Foreign
Wars and other veterans groups that don't cloak their agenda in other people's
blood.
>G>These people all put their lives at risk to defend the constitution and
{^ veterans, not NRA}
>G>I believe that they have the right to bring up their rights. This was
>G>the greatest nation on earth. No other nation has even approached us.
>G>This was based as you stated on the values that our forefathers handed
>G>down to us.
Why "was" ? I believe it "IS". I disagree with the NRA, and IMHO the NRA is
a nemisis of the constitution. I hope the NRA is defeated, but defeated
legally, within the realm of the constituion. Why is it that when I argue
against them I'm violating their rights?
>G>I find it rather funny that the orginal poster of this message thinks
>G>that older things have no revelance to today. That is ridiculous! The
>G>reason that the world has advanced is becauuse of all the knowledge that
>G>has been preserved. The Bible for example is the most revelant book
>G>today which goes back to the beginning of mankind and still disscusses
>G>every problem that we face in our lives.
Yes. Tradition is what keeps something as chaotic as a democracy from
straying to far from its values. The older the tradition, the more stable the
democracy. Not to piss you off, but IMHO, the bible has no place in a
discussion of public policy.
>G>I mean gee.... I find that the older messages here still help guide me
>G>in how to win <GRIN>
True.
Pssst Dave - Hey man, you touched an American hot button here. Try going to
one of those poly-sci/culture boards and post a little note like
"NRA sucks"
and watch the posts fly fast and furious.
Thomas A. Compter
wondering, is there a rec.games.binaries board somewhere where I could just
post them?
--
D.J.S. Damerell
>>Yes, except when it suits them, like all those NRA people quoting the
>>Constitution (which is only 200 years old, after all, and therefore
>>perfectly relevant to the world today.) IMHO too many 'merkins think that
>>just because you can sue someone means you should.
>agreed. But those NRA bastards could use a good suin' tho. ;^)
>In defense of the constitution though, its not meant to be a statement of
>rules & laws, but a statement of values. Values don't lose their meaning over
>time. The constitution is they way in which our courts decide the correctness
>(?) of laws which are constantly being written/rewritten.
Ummm. Do values lose meaning over time? Society's interpretation of
morality has and will. I'll quote the 'right to carry and bear arms' (for
a militia) back at you as something that made sense 200 years ago...
>>>Its in our
>>>blood & I'll guarantee that by the time this gets posted - all those "playing
>>>aids" we started talking about have already been covertly swapped about. ;^)
>>1) I've said this is a bad idea because Paramount gets miffed with ADB.
>What does Paramount care about a Auto-DAC roller?
Paramount has sold the rights for Trek software to other people. By the
time their lawyers have niggled Paramount and Paramount's lawyers have
niggled ADB, the fact that it doesn't actually do anyone any damage has
been lost. Lawyers have that effect on sensible people.
>>2) I've also said it's a good programming exercise to write your own.
>True, but in addition to hatin' rules, 'merkins hate redundancy.
>True, but in addition to hatin' rules, 'merkins hate redundancy.
I'll resist the urge to suggest that private enterprise rather than
State-owned facilities leads to just that...
D.J.S. Damerell
follow up after this no matter what gets posted.
In article <Max_Natzet....@ccmail.gsfc.nasa.gov>,
Max_Natzet <Max_N...@ccmail.gsfc.nasa.gov> wrote (in response to
"glenn")
>>Glenn> It amazes me the attitude that many people have about the NRA (BTW I
>>G>am not a member). The group is made up mostly by people that served
>>G>this nation in many of this nation's wars. Wars that many of us play at
>>G>in our boardgames.
So what? Hitler was a war veteran. (Yes, it's an official USENET flame
war! I mentioned Hitler!)
>>G>These people all put their lives at risk to defend the constitution
and > {^ veterans, not NRA}
>>G>I believe that they have the right to bring up their rights. This was
>>G>the greatest nation on earth. No other nation has even approached us.
>>G>This was based as you stated on the values that our forefathers handed
>>G>down to us.
>Why "was" ? I believe it "IS". I disagree with the NRA, and IMHO the NRA is
>a nemisis of the constitution. I hope the NRA is defeated, but defeated
>legally, within the realm of the constituion. Why is it that when I argue
>against them I'm violating their rights?
Especially as Britain _was_ the greatest nation on earth, not America.
"is" - well, it's the most powerful. And precisely as you say, the values
were handed down from your forefathers, in an era of slavery, injustice
and gunboat diplomacy. Perhaps those values are no longer meaningful.
>>G>I find it rather funny that the orginal poster of this message thinks
>>G>that older things have no revelance to today. That is ridiculous! The
>>G>reason that the world has advanced is becauuse of all the knowledge that
>>G>has been preserved. The Bible for example is the most revelant book
>>G>today which goes back to the beginning of mankind and still disscusses
>>G>every problem that we face in our lives.
The Bible is a barbarian comic book. The Bible is about the only thing
that does make the silly bits of the 'merkin Constitution look like a
sensible basis for life. Knowledge has been preserved, yes, but
fallacies, like the world being flat, have been discarded. A shame that
the outdated superstitions of Christianity haven't also been dispensed
with.
>Yes. Tradition is what keeps something as chaotic as a democracy from
>straying to far from its values. The older the tradition, the more stable the
>democracy. Not to piss you off, but IMHO, the bible has no place in a
>discussion of public policy.
The UK should be sorted, then.
>>G>I mean gee.... I find that the older messages here still help guide me
>>G>in how to win <GRIN>
>True.
But if you looked back for really old ones relating to older editions of
SFB, some of them would make no sense in the current game. The right to
carry and bear and blast the crap out of your neighbours with arms is
another such thing/
>Pssst Dave - Hey man, you touched an American hot button here. Try going to
>one of those poly-sci/culture boards and post a little note like
> "NRA sucks"
>and watch the posts fly fast and furious.
That's why I press that button every chance I get. It's always fun
watching 'merkins get all hot and bothered, and the British (who, to a
man, think the NRA are fools) can laugh at some of the crap being spewed.
Max_Natzet
>>In defense of the constitution though, its not meant to be a statement of
>>rules & laws, but a statement of values. Values don't lose their meaning over
>>time. The constitution is they way in which our courts decide the correctness
>>(?) of laws which are constantly being written/rewritten.
>Ummm. Do values lose meaning over time? Society's interpretation of
>morality has and will. I'll quote the 'right to carry and bear arms' (for
>a militia) back at you as something that made sense 200 years ago...
The justification for this is that there should be a check on the power of the
federal government. Local militia, ie National Guards, exist in order to
prevent the federal government from issuing dictatorial powers. Still makes
sense, even if the liklihood of it ever happening is slim at best.
[snip]
I've said this is a bad idea because Paramount gets miffed with ADB.
>>What does Paramount care about a Auto-DAC roller?
>Paramount has sold the rights for Trek software to other people. By the
>time their lawyers have niggled Paramount and Paramount's lawyers have
>niggled ADB, the fact that it doesn't actually do anyone any damage has
>been lost. Lawyers have that effect on sensible people.
OK, domeone else has the rights to software, but those people have absolutely
interest at stake in helping ADB. Therefore the system really precludes a
good auto-DAC program being issued unless ADB wants to fight real hard and buy
liscense. There is a lot of inertia at work throughout this. The best
solution ( and most American ;-) ) is to ignore inconvenient rules and do what
you please, as long as no one really suffers.
>>>2) I've also said it's a good programming exercise to write your own.
>>True, but in addition to hatin' rules, 'merkins hate redundancy.
>>True, but in addition to hatin' rules, 'merkins hate redundancy.
>I'll resist the urge to suggest that private enterprise rather than
>State-owned facilities leads to just that...
The more people you get together to do one thing, the more inefficient they
are. It makes little difference whether they are paid by a government or
private check.
Is it just me or did we scare the rest of rec.games.sfb off?
Max_Natzet
>>>G>This was based as you stated on the values that our forefathers handed
>>>G>down to us.
>>Why "was" ? I believe it "IS". I disagree with the NRA, and IMHO the NRA is
>>a nemisis of the constitution. I hope the NRA is defeated, but defeated
>>legally, within the realm of the constituion. Why is it that when I argue
>>against them I'm violating their rights?
>Especially as Britain _was_ the greatest nation on earth, not America.
>"is" - well, it's the most powerful. And precisely as you say, the values
>were handed down from your forefathers, in an era of slavery, injustice
>and gunboat diplomacy. Perhaps those values are no longer meaningful.
Those weren't values, those were expediencies and were found to contradict the
values and discarded. Well, OK, gunboat diplomacy is still around. Perhaps
it is also core value? :-)
>>Pssst Dave - Hey man, you touched an American hot button here. Try going to
>>one of those poly-sci/culture boards and post a little note like
>> "NRA sucks"
>>and watch the posts fly fast and furious.
>That's why I press that button every chance I get. It's always fun
>watching 'merkins get all hot and bothered, and the British (who, to a
>man, think the NRA are fools) can laugh at some of the crap being spewed.
NRA sucks
P. Pundy
aids that i can have? I realize this is all Hush Hush. Please E-mail me.
--
Paul Pundy ppu...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
------- "Never buy used paint in the shape of a house." -------
Jonathan Springer
>In article <393mvk$4...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, jcsg...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
>(Jonathan Springer) wrote:
>> A good exercise, sure, but not really introductory. To do a real
>> damage allocation program you have to include an SSD database. The
>> program has to know how many of each kind of box a ship has, and keep
>> track of the damage, so that it knows when you are out of forward
>> hull, etc. (Otherwise you have more of a computer die-roller.) For a
>> former non-programmer, this may be too daunting.
>Hmmm... I've got the data for nearly 1,000 SSDs entered into my computer so
This is a lot of work -- pretty impressive.
>that my DAC aid can deal with any ship in the game. Now, is it moral
>and/or legal to post those data? The names of some ships and most, if not
>all, of the races are copyrighted, but the data themserves are not. Is
>this a correct statement?
My guess is that the data itself is copyrighted. An SSD has both
informational and artistic aspects, but the information is most
important. Consider that the R modules consist mostly of SSDs; if you
put them on the net, then it would be like scanning (most of) a book
and giving it away. However, this is a very tricky area, and I'm no
expert.
Jonathan Springer
jcsg...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Malcolm Lee
I agree with John! There's no way that these bean-counters at ADB can tell
me what I can write or distribute. Just because they haven't got anybody
who can program, shouldn't stop anyone else from doing it. Really! If any
game needed to be computerized, it certainly is SFB. For a game which is
based in the future, you would think that its marketters would have more
forward thinking. Rather than suppressing the next logical progression of
this game, they should be trying to get into the 90's by generating a product
that will run their game on a computer. The only drawback would be that they
wouldn't be able to milk their customers with the endless reams of updates
and books and articles. However, they fail to see that anything that can be
done in print can be done on computers. Are these guys so dim-witted?
There are already several tactical starship combat games out there. They are
not as complicated as SFB but no less entertaining. How long will it be before
someone out there comes up with something that will blow SFB off the game
board and people will stop playing it. You've got to admit: playing SFB on
a game board is a major hassle. Not only do you have to assemble all of your
players at one place, but you also have to do the more tedious activities such
as 1> moving your ship counters, 2> allocating energy for each and every
ship by hand, 3> allocating each internal damage point one at a time, 4> using
reams of photocopied SSD's to keep track of ship status, 5> spending hours
searching through the one or two copies of the SFB rules that you have on hand,
and it goes on. All of these activities can be automated using a computer-
based system. Players could play over modem eliminating the need to even
gather in one place. Ships can be moved on an infinitely scaleable map on the
computer screen. No longer is there the need to take over the family dining
room table or the living room floor to lay down the map. Energy allocation can
easily be done a point-and-click type spreadsheet. Damage allocation can be
done automatically by the computer. The player should not have any choice as
to which phaser to lose when a phaser hit takes place. It's more fair if the
computer impartially chooses. (This point always sucked in my mind. Why
should the victim get to choose where he should take damage?) SSD could be
displayed at the click of a mouse button and any ship can be looked at without
the inaccuracy of player's random scrawls on the SSD. The entire rulebook
set can be put on-line and accessible at the click of button.
All of this indicates just how behind-the-times the current iteration of SFB
is. Really, they should be working on a fully automated version of SFB rather
than generating more Captain's Logs or errata or updated/revised/souped-up/
degraded SSD's from their SSD mill.
Just my $0.02 Canadian!
Malcolm Lee
Ken Stuart
> A good exercise, sure, but not really introductory. To do a real
> damage allocation program you have to include an SSD database. The
> program has to know how many of each kind of box a ship has, and keep
> track of the damage, so that it knows when you are out of forward
> hull, etc. (Otherwise you have more of a computer die-roller.) For a
> former non-programmer, this may be too daunting.
Hmmm... I've got the data for nearly 1,000 SSDs entered into my computer so
that my DAC aid can deal with any ship in the game. Now, is it moral
and/or legal to post those data? The names of some ships and most, if not
all, of the races are copyrighted, but the data themserves are not. Is
this a correct statement?
Re-writing the code for a game aid is a good exercise in programming with
regards to an algorithm, though the work to write the interface is usually
tedious and not too productinve. Entering SSD data is certainly tedious!
What is needed is a generic interface which allows SSD data to be loaded,
and a user to enter the order in which different systems get hit.
-Ken
Courtenay Footman
>What is needed is a generic interface which allows SSD data to be loaded,
>and a user to enter the order in which different systems get hit.
With a good interface, it should take only a couple of minutes to enter
the DAC, and another couple of minutes to enter the damage conversion
chart. This would only have to be done once. Each SSD should take less
than minute, once one has counted up all the little boxes to figure out
exactly what the SSD contains.
One would only enter SSD's as needed. A good program should allow one to
start by copying a previously entered SSD. (I.e D6 is a copy of D7, deleting
wing phasers and 2 APR.)
However, doing this would be pointless if it were not legal. Does anyone
_know_ if a SFB playing aid that included no proper names (or SSD's) would
be legal?
--
Courtenay Footman I finally got back on the net.
c...@alchemy.ithaca.ny.us Now I will never get anything done
A broken sendmail.cf frequently causes the "ithaca" to disappear in
"reply-to's". This can be fixed by hand. Sorry.
Andrius Tamulis
Malcolm Lee <ml...@thetis.royalroads.ca> wrote:
(many nested articles deleted)
>board and people will stop playing it. You've got to admit: playing SFB on
>a game board is a major hassle. Not only do you have to assemble all of your
>players at one place, but you also have to do the more tedious activities such
>as 1> moving your ship counters, 2> allocating energy for each and every
>ship by hand, 3> allocating each internal damage point one at a time, 4> using
>reams of photocopied SSD's to keep track of ship status, 5> spending hours
>searching through the one or two copies of the SFB rules that you have on
>hand,
>and it goes on. All of these activities can be automated using a computer-
I disagree with this stand. The whole point of playing is so that you can
gather friends in a social situation and play a challenging game. You want
to do this all on a computer screen over a net? I hope I never do that
to myself. I already spend too many hours staring at a screen.
The computer will _never_ replace the feel of chits, paper, dice, etc.
andrius tamulis
>
>Just my $0.02 Canadian!
Beat'cha - $0.02 american!
>
>Malcolm Lee
Jonathan Springer
>In article <393mvk$4...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
>Jonathan Springer <jcsg...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>> [stuff cut] To do a real
>>damage allocation program you have to include an SSD database. The
>>program has to know how many of each kind of box a ship has, and keep
>>track of the damage, so that it knows when you are out of forward
>>hull, etc. (Otherwise you have more of a computer die-roller.) For a
>>former non-programmer, this may be too daunting.
>I wouldn't advocate an SSD database since the last machine I wrote a DAC
>on was a Casio fx-7700GB with a big bad 4K of memory. Holding one ship in
>memory was quite hard enough. Basically every time a box was hit it
>looked and saw if it knew how many you had and if it didn't it asked you
>about it.
Sounds challenging. Handling just one ship might not be worthwhile to
me, though. I don't mind rolling damage in a one-on-one (kinda fun
actually), and the benefit for a fleet would be marginal. With a PC
there'd be plenty of memory, though. Actually, a laptop would be
ideal since it's portable. Now, if only I had a laptop...
Jonathan Springer
jcsg...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Stephan Fassmann
Maybe you should read the Captain's Logs. ADB had a statement in one
of them recently explaining WHY they don't have a computer game out. The
lawyers have been working on a particular legal question that would allow
them to produce such a thing, and they have been working on it for at least
five years. ADB is not stupid, lazy or anything else you accused them of,
they are just trying to obey the law.
I know there is no legal problems about putting the rule book on the
computer, but there hasn't been much interest from our community to get it
published.
Aide-de-Camp is a generic play aide program for DOS that can
be set up for use with SFB.
Anyone can produce a GENERIC play aide program, but it should be
generic, not just SFB without any tables:-).
Stephan Fassmann InterNet: $ste...@sasb.byu.edu GEnie: S.FASSMANN
C Code. C Code Run. Please Code Run! -found in a source code file.
D.J.S. Damerell
I wouldn't advocate an SSD database since the last machine I wrote a DAC
on was a Casio fx-7700GB with a big bad 4K of memory. Holding one ship in
memory was quite hard enough. Basically every time a box was hit it
looked and saw if it knew how many you had and if it didn't it asked you
about it.
--
D.J.S. Damerell
Ken Stuart <kp...@cornell.edu> wrote:
>In article <393mvk$4...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, jcsg...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
>(Jonathan Springer) wrote:
>> A good exercise, sure, but not really introductory. To do a real
>> damage allocation program you have to include an SSD database. The
>> program has to know how many of each kind of box a ship has, and keep
>> track of the damage, so that it knows when you are out of forward
>> hull, etc. (Otherwise you have more of a computer die-roller.) For a
>> former non-programmer, this may be too daunting.
>Hmmm... I've got the data for nearly 1,000 SSDs entered into my computer so
>that my DAC aid can deal with any ship in the game. Now, is it moral
>and/or legal to post those data? The names of some ships and most, if not
>all, of the races are copyrighted, but the data themserves are not. Is
>this a correct statement?
Moral? No. Legal? I'd imagine not.
Thomas A. Compter
I agree that the point of playing is to gather in a social environment,
et al. but SFB _is_ rather tedious to play, especially with many ships.
That's why I like to write / create playing aids to reduce the tedium
while preserving the flavor and the visual appeal of the board, counters,
etc.
Allan Hise
Hey, could you pass along a summary of what you get - I'd be interested
in it too. And I'm not some spy from ADB or the governmnet, so don't think
I'm trying to bust anyone - just trying to make SFB go faster (mainly so my
GF does not get so mad at me for staying out so late playing... Chances
are SFB play aids would just make me play bigger battles that I only dreamed
of... *sigh*)
Thanks!
Allan
--
hi...@io.com My .sig is shorter than your .sig
D.J.S. Damerell
Jonathan Springer <jcsg...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>djs...@cus.cam.ac.uk (D.J.S. Damerell) writes:
>
>>In article <393mvk$4...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
>>Jonathan Springer <jcsg...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>I wouldn't advocate an SSD database since the last machine I wrote a DAC
>>on was a Casio fx-7700GB with a big bad 4K of memory. Holding one ship in
>>memory was quite hard enough. Basically every time a box was hit it
>>looked and saw if it knew how many you had and if it didn't it asked you
>>about it.
>Sounds challenging.
Thanks. I did it with a big bad 1K free, _actually_.
>Handling just one ship might not be worthwhile to
>me, though.
The latest version (with 1K free) did indeed handle two ships. More to
the point all the group had this calculator, so we could manage about 8
ships or so...
Max_Natzet
>> gather friends in a social situation and play a challenging game.
IMHO Any game that is supposed to be double blind is better on a a computer.
Other than that, computer games are a good alternative to sitting around doing
nothing for a lack of opponents.
Max
Max Natzet, Combat Botantist
NASA/Wallops Flight Facility
E-Mail: Max_N...@CCMail.GSFC.NASA.GOV
"The opinions expressed above are mine,
unless they disagree with my employer,
who might be monitoring me"
Alec Habig
>>But you must remember Dave - Americans also hate following rules.
>
>Yes, except when it suits them, like all those NRA people quoting the
>Constitution (which is only 200 years old, after all, and thgerefore
>perfectly relevant to the world today.)
Gosh darn, what people in their right mind would use a 200 year old document to
govern the way their country works? None of it could possibly be relevant!
Opinions and arguments aside, the 2nd Amendment is part of the Constitution
that lays out how our country works. If people really think a part of the
Constitution is truely obsolete, then there are clearly defined procedures that
lay out how it can be changed. But until that actually happens, that's the way
our country works.
I obviously feel resonably strongly about this issue, but this isn't the forum
for me to spout off about it. Anybody want to discuss this by email, mail
away, I'm always up for some good debate :)
> IMHO too many 'merkins think that just because you can sue someone means
> you should.
Agreed 100%
Alec
--
Alec Habig, Indiana University High Energy Astrophysics
aha...@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu
http://astrowww.astro.indiana.edu/personnel/ahabig/
Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns.
Alec Habig
>Yes, but this group of sheep is lead by right wing wackos who believe we
>should have the right to own cop killer bullets and less control over guns
>than we do for our automobiles. I have the utmost respect for veterans, but
>they had to give their guns back the Army when they come home.
This is not only insulting, but downright false.
The NRA was assiting in writing legislation banning "cop killer" bullets. This
legislation was then amended by some gun control legislators to include bans on
many other types of ammunition - the kinds that I go down to the range and
shoot in competition. Naturally, this was not a bill that the NRA could
support anymore - and so they were put into the sad position of having to work
against the whole bill.
>I also think the NRA does veterans a disservice by associating their name with
>them. I fully support the Veterans Administration, the Veterans of Foreign
>Wars and other veterans groups that don't cloak their agenda in other people's
>blood.
The association between the NRA and the veteran's groups lies solely in the
fact that many people belong to both organizations.
It's also nice to see that you lead off with rabid ad hominem attacks.
Cloaking agendas in other people's blood, indeed.
>Why "was" ? I believe it "IS". I disagree with the NRA, and IMHO the NRA is
>a nemisis of the constitution. I hope the NRA is defeated, but defeated
>legally, within the realm of the constituion. Why is it that when I argue
>against them I'm violating their rights?
You're not violating anyone's rights, except by spouting meaningless slander.
Informed debate, on the other hand, is what makes our country go round. I am
curious - how on earth is a group of people who share a common interest, and
band together to lobby our representatives the antithesis of the constitution??
I thought this was democracy in action. I belong to the Sierra Club as well.
They function in exactly the same way as the NRA (but with environmental issues
instead), so I guess they're Evil Psychos too?
>Pssst Dave - Hey man, you touched an American hot button here. Try going to
>one of those poly-sci/culture boards and post a little note like
> "NRA sucks"
>and watch the posts fly fast and furious.
No kidding. You've slammed my hot button by frothing off slander in a
newsgroup I read for enjoyment.
Look, the shooting sports are as much a valid hobby as board or role playing
games (maybe moreso, one can get Olympic medals in shooting sports :)
Characterizing the people who participate in such a hobby as bloodthirsty
maniacs is as accurate as the fundies who say that all people who play D&D are
Satanists, so we should burn the books.
Stephen Robert Norris
[Rabid NRA baiting and rabid replies deleted]
I think I should say that rec.games.board is not the place for this
discussion, neither is it about SFB, nor is it of interest to the rest of us
in the world, many of whom wonder about the people in the USA who have an
enormously high number of fatalities from gunshot wounds (compared to the
rest of the "western" world) and a similarly high number of guns, but fail
to make any connection. Hmmm.
Stephen
Donald S Miller
Take this thread somewhere else (like alt.flame).
Donald Miller