Playing the game vs. preserving the components
Christian Schlobach
several years ago I bought my first few strategy games resp. wargames from AH. At that time, I just punched the counters as soon as I held the game in my hands in order to play the game as soon as possible. Since then, my attitude toward my games has changed. Now, I usually open the box of a new game, look at the game components like counter sheets etc. and read the rules. By that time I usually want to play a few rounds to get the feel for the game. But these days, I can't help thinking that punching the counters would diminish the value of the game. I certainly am not a games collector and I don't think I'll ever sell any of my games now or in the future. But especially if a game was quite expensive or has achieved the status of being rare or a collector's item I just feel too intimidated to punch the counters (or to a lesser degree use the other components) !!! :-)
On the other side, I really want to play my games and not just look at them from time to time. I was thinking about making copies of the countersheets and mounting them myself. Otherwise I couldn't imagine ever playing a game like The Gamer's DAK or some of the old SPI games, in case I'll ever buy an unpunched copy of them second hand. Still, I hate the idea of spending an additional $20 for mounting a second set of counters for a regular, still-in-print game which I bought for $50. But I just like the idea of preserving the crisp, clean, just-like-new look of the games :)
What do you think about this? Do you just punch the counters of the award-winning, out-of-print game you just bought for $150 because the game was meant to be played with? Or do you make copies of all game components, then wrap the game in a soft cloth, place it in an air-tight plastic zip-lock bag and store each and every game in a seperate wooden box? ;-)
Regards,
Chris
GREG SCHLOESSER
> several years ago I bought my first few strategy games resp. wargames from AH. At that time, I just punched the counters as soon as I held the game in my hands in order to play the game as soon as possible. Since then, my attitude toward my games has changed. Now, I usually open the box of a new game, look at the game components like counter sheets etc. and read the rules. By that time I usually want to play a few rounds to get the feel for the game. But these days, I can't help thinking that punching the counters would diminish the value of the game. I certainly am not a games collector and I don't think I'll ever sell any of my games now or in the future. But especially if a game was quite expensive or has achieved the status of being rare or a collector's item I just feel too intimidated to punch the counters (or to a lesser degree use the other components) !!! :-)
> On the other side, I really want to play my games and not just look at them from time to time.
>
> What do you think about this? Do you just punch the counters of the award-winning, out-of-print game you just bought for $150 because the game was meant to be played with? Or do you make copies of all game components, then wrap the game in a soft cloth, place it in an air-tight plastic zip-lock bag and store each and every game in a seperate wooden box? ;-)
Well, as you've stated, your intent is not to be a collector ... you want to play the game. My suggestion would be to stopy worrying, punch the counters, and enjoy the gaming experience.
--
Greg J. Schloesser
The Westbank Gamers: http://home.earthlink.net/~gschloesser/
Tarquelne
1) Punch the suckers and play the game.
or
2) Copy everything, seal the original in an noble-gas filled pouch,
and sell it as soon as the price as right while you play with the
copies.
or
3) Just stick it in the pouch.
Do #1 if you want to have the most fun. Do #2 if you either a) Want
the extra money. or b) Don't care about using copies. (Better be
sure whoever you're playing feels the same.) Do #3 if you really are
_merely_ a collector.
I'd go with #1 - if you want to make an investment there are probably
more lucrative alternatives.
Tarquelne
<os...@apk.net>
I know how God can make a rock so big He can't move it.
************************
Derk Solko
> I certainly =
> am not a games collector and I don't think I'll ever sell any of my =
> games now or in the future. But especially if a game was quite
> or has achieved the status of being rare or a collector's item I just
> feel too intimidated to punch the counters (or to a lesser degree use
> the other components) !!! :-)
heh heh. If I had a quarter for everytime I've heard a gamer utter
that phrase, "I'm not a collector, but..." Because that's just
horsehit. When did being a 'collector' turn into a cardinal sin? The
matter is simple in my mind: if you buy games with little regard for
content and more for volume, then you're a collector. If you own a
thousand games, you're a collector. If you hermetically seal your
games to preserve them, or you force players to use tweezers and rubber
gloves to handle the components, then you're a collector. If you buy
games as an investment strategy or future value speculation, then
you're a collector. If your name is Sid Sackson, you're one hell of a
collector.
I dunno. I'd like to say that I've played all the games in my fifty+
game collection, but that's not the case. Circumstances just haven't
allowed me to play all the games that I've bought. However whenever
I've picked up a fairly rare item, I've never even considered not
opening it and punching all the pieces. Hell, that's my favorite
part. I love pushing all the counters out and putting them into
separate little baggies and then forcing all the air out of the baggies
and carefully stowing all the little bits in the the box so that
nothing will jiggle while it's sitting on my shelf. Now that's an
exciting Friday evening!
One of the things that really gets me though, is the group of gamers
that can't decide which side of this argument they're on. They are
insistent that you handle their games as if you were handling heirloom
china. I remember one gamer I was playing with that told me to hold
the cards in my hand differently because I was warping the cards too
much (I assure you, I wasn't bending them unduely). Ok, I can
understand giving me guidelines if I lick the card and then stick the
card to my forehead ala Liar's Poker (I've only done that once, and the
cards were plastic covered). But come on... I can respect gamer's
rule regarding food and drink. I don't agree with it, but I can
respect it. So long as the activity doesn't add undue wear to a game,
it's allowed around my games (and being able to drink a Coke or snack
on a cracker during a game lends itself to nice, comfortable atmosphere
in my book). To me, this is the real distinction between collectors
and players. A player wouldn't let silly rules interfere with the game
atmosphere.
derk.
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Richard Wein
Christian Schlobach wrote in message <7lfral$t...@news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>..
>
>What do you think about this? Do you just punch the counters of the
>award-winning, out-of-print game you just bought for $150 because the game
>was meant to be played with? Or do you make copies of all game components,
>then wrap the game in a soft cloth, place it in an air-tight plastic
>zip-lock bag and store each and every game in a seperate wooden box? ;-)
Since you ask.... I too like the look and feel of a pristine game, but I
certainly wouldn't let that stop me playing it. In fact, I also quite like
the look and feel of a well-worn game, as that's a sign that I've had good
value for my money. (Alas, too many of my games remain in near-pristine
condition due to lack of opportunities to play them.)
But I must admit to one foible. When I buy a game with a pad of record
sheets, such as Age of Renaissance, I hate the idea of using up the pad.
Sometimes I even use photocopies right from the start, and never use any of
the sheets supplied with the game!
On the other hand, maybe I haven't answered your question, since I've never
bought a $150 out-of-print game, and would never consider doing so. Think of
all the good in-print games you could buy for that money. ;-)
Richard Wein (Tich)
--------------------------------
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first part with the word "tich" (antispam device). See my web pages for
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Larry Welborn
>
> Hi everybody,
>
> several years ago I bought my first few strategy games resp. wargames from AH. At that time, I just punched the counters as soon as I held the game in my hands in order to play the game as soon as possible. Since then, my attitude toward my games has changed. Now, I usually open the box of a new game, look at the game components like counter sheets etc. and read the rules. By that time I usually want to play a few rounds to get the feel for the game. But these days, I can't help thinking that punching the counters would diminish the value of the game. I certainly am not a games collector and I don't think I'll ever sell any of my games now or in the future. But especially if a game was quite expensive or has achieved the status of being rare or a collector's item I just feel too intimidated to punch the counters (or to a lesser degree use the other components) !!! :-)
>
>
> Chris
I punch and play. When I buy used games, I don't care if the pieces are
punched or not, as long as the game is complete. If you are looking for
an investment, games are a poor choice. If you want to collect, buy two
copies.
Larry
--
Note: To Reply remove "Not" from the e-mail address
Randy Stone
>
> What do you think about this? Do you just punch the counters of the award-winning, out-of-print game you just bought for $150 because the game was meant to be played with? Or do you make copies of all game components, then wrap the game in a soft cloth, place it in an air-tight plastic zip-lock bag and store each and every game in a seperate wooden box? ;-)
>
I tend to side with the punch-and-play crowd, but not everyone will
agree. I once had a guy refuse to sell me an unpunched game because I
actually intended to play it!
But another alternative is to convert the components into an electronic
format using programs like Cyberboard or Aide-de-Camp (or maybe someone
else has already converted it). Then you can play the game on the
computer and preserve the original.
---
Randy Stone
ran...@texas.net
Patrick Carroll
I'll just agree--and then add one personal note.
I myself don't think wargames are worth collecting. At one time I had a
collection of well over a hundred. But when I ran low on closet space, I sold
all but a couple of them to a wargame club for not much more than the cost of
postage. Several more times, my collection built up to where I decided to sell
it to make space--and once or twice, I knew one or more of the games was now
discontinued and was probaby a "collector's item" in somebody's book; but I
didn't care--I just sold it for ten bucks or so.
Sure, I still get a nostalgic feeling when I dig through my closet and reopen
an old favorite. But if I'm not actually playing a game once in a while, I
don't want it around. I have no regrets about having sold a handful of
"classics" over the years. In a sense, it gave me the space (both physical and
figurative) to move on.
Besides which, I've always regarded board wargames as pretty shoddy anyhow--all
paper & cardboard. The die is usually the highest-quality component, and it's
often one of those tiny little toy dice!
***
A couple domino sites I've enjoyed:
General info & links:
http://xs4all.nl/~spaanszt/Domino_Plaza.html
Windows downloads & more:
http://members.aol.com/DominoPage/
Glenn Kuntz
>I can't help thinking that =
>punching the counters would diminish the value of the game.
The value of the game as what? A game or a collectible?
>What do you think about this? Do you just punch the counters of the =
>award-winning, out-of-print game you just bought for $150 because the =
>game was meant to be played with?
That really depends on *why* you bought the game. Are you
buying it to play it or as an investment?
If you bought it to play it, then play it.
If you bought it as an investment, then protect it.
If you bought it for both reasons, either make a personal copy
(which, ethically, you should destroy when you sell it) or buy
a second copy.
What's the big deal?
Glenn Kuntz
Christian Killoran
Christian Schlobach wrote in message <7lfral$t...@news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>...
Hi everybody,
several years ago I bought my first few strategy games resp. wargames from
AH. At that time, I just punched the counters as soon as I held the game in
my hands in order to play the game as soon as possible. Since then, my
attitude toward my games has changed. Now, I usually open the box of a new
game, look at the game components like counter sheets etc. and read the
rules. By that time I usually want to play a few rounds to get the feel for
the game. But these days, I can't help thinking that punching the counters
would diminish the value of the game. I certainly am not a games collector
and I don't think I'll ever sell any of my games now or in the future. But
especially if a game was quite expensive or has achieved the status of being
rare or a collector's item I just feel too intimidated to punch the counters
(or to a lesser degree use the other components) !!! :-)
On the other side, I really want to play my games and not just look at them
from time to time. I was thinking about making copies of the countersheets
and mounting them myself. Otherwise I couldn't imagine ever playing a game
like The Gamer's DAK or some of the old SPI games, in case I'll ever buy an
unpunched copy of them second hand. Still, I hate the idea of spending an
additional $20 for mounting a second set of counters for a regular,
still-in-print game which I bought for $50. But I just like the idea of
preserving the crisp, clean, just-like-new look of the games :)
What do you think about this? Do you just punch the counters of the
award-winning, out-of-print game you just bought for $150 because the game
was meant to be played with? Or do you make copies of all game components,
then wrap the game in a soft cloth, place it in an air-tight plastic
zip-lock bag and store each and every game in a seperate wooden box? ;-)
Regards,
Chris
Hell, when I get a new game I tape the board down and then quickly rip up
the tape to mar the corners! That way new players won't be worrying about
damaging the components and will hopefully concentrate on playing the game
well. A game without tequila stains? What's the point! (although it's
embarrassing when I haul out my Kingmaker game to play with my teenage
students - I just explain that the bong-water stain on Ireland appeared
sometime in the mid 70's and I have no idea how it got there.)
Neil Carr
usually scan in the components on my computer, although that tends to
be for the more fiddly, AH style games that are OOP. German games
with lots of cards and other bits I don't both with much. I scan them
usually for a record of the components in case a decade passes and
I've lost a piece or two I can quickly make a new one. Also it's
helpful if I want to do a PBEM game if all the components are scanned
in, then I just use Electronic Cardboard or Aide de Camp to play a
game with some distant friend.
I can scarcely think of a reason to not punch a game. Punching and
bagging/traying the components is half the fun. I spend far too much
time of my life prepping a game for play by punching, organizing, and
designing play aids for my games. My ultimate goal is to make any
game, no matter how fiddly or complex into a game that can be picked
up and rolling along in a short ammount of time.
The Maverick
>
> I once had a guy refuse to sell me an unpunched game because I
> actually intended to play it!
listed an unpunched game up for auction as punched because they didn't
want it to sell to a "collector"!
Although I don't think most people worry quite as much about the
punch/play issue as the originator of this thread, I really can't
understand why some people are so concerned what happens to their games
*after* they sell them! ;-)
the Mav
--
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THE SPACE AND FANTASY GAMER'S GUIDE
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Elliot Wilen
a game only makes sense if you consider it a financial investment. That's
nonsense. A lot of games are out of print and may never be reprinted.
It's worth taking care of them so that you can continue playing them
for a long time--just as one would take care of a classic car, yet
still drive it around.
I don't punch a game until I intend to play it. This is partly because
I don't really enjoy punching games (especially if I have to be careful
not to tear badly-diecut counters), partly because it can be
time-consuming, partly because, if I eventually decide to sell it before
I've played it, I might as well get the extra value.
On the other hand, I actually prefer to buy punched games, as long as
they're playably complete. By which I mean, it's okay if blanks are
missing if they aren't used in the game, and it's even okay if some
counters are missing if there are no countermix limitations or the
counters can be replaced without affecting play. But I don't want a
game which is missing counters which can't be replaced (e.g., because
it uses face-down counters for hidden movement) or which has stained or
torn counters or cards, where the stains or tears will make it possible
to distinguish counters or cards when they need to be kept
indistinguishable. But aside from those issues, I like punched games
since (a) I won't have to punch them, and (b) they're usually cheaper.
Once I do have a game in punched condition, I take care of it for the
reason described above--I want to be able to keep playing it. I may not
care that much about Kingmaker, which can easily be replaced for $10 or
so, but if you have the habit of bending back the pages of a rule book
like a cheap magazine, folding cards, spilling beer on the map, and
losing counters in couch, then I do not wish to introduce you to my
copy of Divine Right. And yes, I did make a copy of one very valuable
game--not to sell the original, but so that I know I won't have to go
out and drop another $100 if I or someone else damages an irreplaceable
component. I also make photocopies or save scans of games before I
punch them (if I have the patience, as someone else said)--once again,
so that I can fully enjoy the game as long as possible, even if
something gets lost.
--Elliot Wilen
--
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when sending me email.
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Christian Schlobach
> heh heh. If I had a quarter for everytime I've heard a gamer utter
> that phrase, "I'm not a collector, but..." Because that's just
> horsehit. When did being a 'collector' turn into a cardinal sin? The
> matter is simple in my mind: if you buy games with little regard for
> content and more for volume, then you're a collector. If you own a
> thousand games, you're a collector. If you hermetically seal your
> games to preserve them, or you force players to use tweezers and rubber
> gloves to handle the components, then you're a collector. If you buy
> games as an investment strategy or future value speculation, then
> you're a collector. If your name is Sid Sackson, you're one hell of a
> collector.
Hm ... none of the mentioned conditions applies to me. Nope, I'm definitely not a collector (honestly, I'm _not_ ;-). I want to play the games.
> One of the things that really gets me though, is the group of gamers
> that can't decide which side of this argument they're on. They are
> insistent that you handle their games as if you were handling heirloom
> china. I remember one gamer I was playing with that told me to hold
> the cards in my hand differently because I was warping the cards too
> much (I assure you, I wasn't bending them unduely). Ok, I can
> understand giving me guidelines if I lick the card and then stick the
> card to my forehead ala Liar's Poker (I've only done that once, and the
> cards were plastic covered). But come on... I can respect gamer's
> rule regarding food and drink. I don't agree with it, but I can
> respect it. So long as the activity doesn't add undue wear to a game,
> it's allowed around my games (and being able to drink a Coke or snack
> on a cracker during a game lends itself to nice, comfortable atmosphere
> in my book). To me, this is the real distinction between collectors
> and players. A player wouldn't let silly rules interfere with the game
> atmosphere.
Don't get me wrong. I usually don't indulge in this kind of neurotic behaviour :) Most of my older games look somewhat worn and I even managed to put a coffee stain on one of the rule books (wow!). But I must admit that a grease stain from a cheese cracker on one of my wargame maps would upset me a bit :)
Chris
Christian Schlobach
> A number of people have responded to this thread as if taking care of
> a game only makes sense if you consider it a financial investment. That's
> nonsense. A lot of games are out of print and may never be reprinted.
> It's worth taking care of them so that you can continue playing them
> for a long time--just as one would take care of a classic car, yet
> still drive it around.
Ah ... finally, there is somebody who seems to understand what I'm driving at. There are many shades of grey inbetween the black and white of collectors and pragmatics. The aesthetic value of a game is also something which heightens the gaming experience. So taking care of a game is a safeguard that nothing gets lost _and_ that the visual appeal of the game is preserved. And this has nothing to do with the punch-and-play issue. Even if you punch the counters you can still try to take care of their looks as much as possible. Not punching the counters and playing with self-mounted copies of the counters is just the ultimate way of preserving the looks of the game.
I have come to the conclusion that I should stop worrying about punching the counters for most of the games I'd buy. Still, expensive games with a collectors status are a case of its own. I probably want to buy such a game for which I will easily have to pay more than $100. I'd like to get this game because it is one of the best on this topic and I'm eager to play it. Apart from the fact that I want to keep the game in good condition it bothers me somewhat that especially in unpunched condition it is a rare collectors item and by punching it I'd reduce the few unpunched copies even further (I wish I could buy it punched :). I know it's just a sentimental thought but that's how it is. This would mean I'd have to play with copied DIY counters (sigh!). Before you dismiss my scruples consider this: Would you stick an old, rare, unused postal stamp on a letter just because you're not a stamp collector and the stamp can still be used?
> On the other hand, I actually prefer to buy punched games, as long as
> they're playably complete.
> But aside from those issues, I like punched games
> since (a) I won't have to punch them, and (b) they're usually cheaper.
Yes, I _especially_ prefer the OOP classics punched. This way they are significantly cheaper and I don't need to worry about punching a collectors item :)
> Once I do have a game in punched condition, I take care of it for the
> reason described above--I want to be able to keep playing it. I may not
> care that much about Kingmaker, which can easily be replaced for $10 or
> so, but if you have the habit of bending back the pages of a rule book
> like a cheap magazine, folding cards, spilling beer on the map, and
> losing counters in couch, then I do not wish to introduce you to my
> copy of Divine Right.
I wholeheartedly agree.
And yes, I did make a copy of one very valuable
> game--not to sell the original, but so that I know I won't have to go
> out and drop another $100 if I or someone else damages an irreplaceable
> component.
So, do you actually play with the copies or the original?
I also make photocopies or save scans of games before I
> punch them (if I have the patience, as someone else said)--once again,
> so that I can fully enjoy the game as long as possible, even if
> something gets lost.
I believe for the majority of the games I'd buy this is the option I'll go for.
Chris
Steve Burt
Christian Schlobach <uzs...@uni-bonn.de> wrote in message
news:7li40h$s...@news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de...
Before you dismiss my scruples consider this: Would you stick an old, rare,
unused postal stamp on a letter just because you're not a stamp collector
and the stamp can still be used?
Definitely! By doing so I save myself the cost of a stamp, and increase the
value of any remaining examples. I'm doing the collectors a favour. :-)
Neil Carr
<uzs...@uni-bonn.de> wrote:
>Okay, punching a game for $50 ... no problem. But is there >really anybody out there who would buy a very expensive OOP game and
>then punch it?
>
I will! Someone sell me their unpunched Divine Right and I'll scan
and then punch it till it's got a bloody nose. I can understand why
other's may have trepidation in punching a $100+ OOP title but
whatever I buy I intend on playing. Of course it may take a couple of
years but eventually it'll get cracked open.
Derk Solko
> I'm grateful for all the feedback on my original message. The fact
> most people just punch and play ("Punch the suckers and play the
> I like this one :) assured me that I should stop worrying. In this =
> light, the question "Should I punch my copy of the OOP, $150 classic =
> with collectors status?" is reduced to "Is the gaming experience of
> OOP classic with collectors status worth the $150?" Okay, punching a =
> game for $50 ... no problem. But is there really anybody out there
> would buy a very expensive OOP game and then punch it?
Well, I can definitely see that we're of differing opinions. But hey,
that's what all this posturing is all about, eh? I'm still shaking my
head in disgust though. The difference is probably rooted in different
types of games we're talking about. You're a wargamer. And the
components for a wargame tend to be shitloads of 8 1/2 x 11 counter
sheets, things that lend themselves to easy duplication. Whereas when
I think of an expensive game, I'm picturing someone's copy of
Discretion or Elfenroads that they purchased for $150+. These
components are much harder to duplicate, and so your homebrew answer is
unrealistic unless you're willing to spend lots of time cutting cards
and painting little wooden blocks (and if that's the case you should
have just built the thing from scratch, which I don't condone unless
the game's OOP!). This discussion then basically boils down to whether
or not you suffer from incurable parakeetitis, which I do. I need to
see all the shiny little parts, or something's missing...
Scvsheldjk
"Gallipoli" game:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OK, I'm better now -- the medication is taking effect! Well, I'm a collector
and a player -- so yes, I buy two copies. (And I try to take good care of the
play copy too, and yes, make a full list of components). My problem comes when
I find a mint copy of a truly rare game that I want to collect AND play, and
for which I'm fairly certain I'll never get another copy. Then yes, I'd
consider "duping" the components (if possible) for a personal play copy. And I
fervently believe that my friend Gerry is free to do whatever he wishes with
his "Gallipoli" game -- punch it, leave it on his doorstep (hint, hint) or
whatever. Just as I am free to go
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. No, really, I'm better I tell you.............
--John
Dennis Matheson
>Randy Stone wrote:
>>
>> I once had a guy refuse to sell me an unpunched game because I
>> actually intended to play it!
>
>LOL! On an opposing note, someone commented here a while back that they
>listed an unpunched game up for auction as punched because they didn't
>want it to sell to a "collector"!
>
>Although I don't think most people worry quite as much about the
>punch/play issue as the originator of this thread, I really can't
>understand why some people are so concerned what happens to their games
>*after* they sell them! ;-)
It's the collector/investor mentality. I once saw someone purchase a
Star Trek collectable at a convention. As soon as he had it (and had paid
for it), he tore open the box and pulled the toy out. The seller started
*screaming* and nearly went over table after him. The dealer refused to
deal with him any more.
More personally, I once bought a comic book I thought looked interesting
only to have the dealer ask "Why do you want that? They printed so many it
will never be worth anything."
OK, neither of these were games but it shows the collector/investor
mentality. They don't buy these things to enjoy, they buy them as
investments and can't understany *why* anyone else would feel differently.
Try this; go to your local Beanie store, buy one (any one) and pop the
tag off while you are still in the store. I bet you will get a reaction
from at least one other customer.
Just an observation...
--
"You can't run away forever; but there's nothing wrong with getting a good
head start." --- Jim Steinman
Dennis Matheson --- den...@mountaindiver.com
Hike, Dive, Ski, Climb --- http://www.mountaindiver.com
Wei-Hwa Huang
>news:7li40h$s...@news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de...
>Before you dismiss my scruples consider this: Would you stick an old, rare,
>unused postal stamp on a letter just because you're not a stamp collector
>and the stamp can still be used?
I'd sell the stamp to a collector and buy a new stamp with the money.
Presumably there'd be more money left over. Or I might just buy a new
stamp and keep the old stamp around in case it increases in value.
If I don't have any access to other stamps, I might be heartbroken but
I'd have to use that stamp.
(Also, some countries have expiration dates on stamps.)
Same goes for rare games. If I've got a collectible, expensive, game, and
I can get (or make myself) another game at less cost, I see no reason
to play the expensive game, as opposed to selling or keeping it. If there
are no other games that can match the experience ... well, it's getting
punched.
I also see little reason to pay extra for a "1st edition" of anything unless
it has some definite advantages over later editions.
--
Wei-Hwa Huang, whu...@ugcs.caltech.edu, http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~whuang/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You may outrank me, but a bath will change that."
Christian Schlobach
it's because of you collectors that I would feel bad about punching a copy of a rare game ;-) It's just not fair to have a bad conscience over this :) What have you done to me? Once I just played my games but now I loose my sleep over punching the counters. I'm a bit scared ... do you think I'm transforming into a collector?
Chris
Sorry about "Gallipoli". My thoughts are with you and all the other collectors ...
Scvsheldjk <scvsh...@aol.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag: 19990702104626...@ng-ci1.aol.com...
Christian Schlobach
> I also see little reason to pay extra for a "1st edition" of anything unless
> it has some definite advantages over later editions.
Yeah, but 1st editions are usually inferior to later ones. And this is true for not just games. 1st editions are really just for the collectors. I don't buy any first editions if a second edition is available.
Chris
Elliot Wilen
g*dd*mn Microsoft MIMEOLE on your newsposting software. It's a damn
nuisance even one does have a MIME-capable newsreader. Okay, back to
games...
In article <7li40h$s...@news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>,
Christian Schlobach <uzs...@uni-bonn.de> wrote:
>And yes, I did make a copy of one very valuable
>> game--not to sell the original, but so that I know I won't have to go
>> out and drop another $100 if I or someone else damages an =
>irreplaceable
>> component.
>
>So, do you actually play with the copies or the original?
I play with the copy. If anything happens to it, I can go back to the
source and make a new one.
The copy looks and feels pretty good. The counters and map were
color-photocopied (nowadays I'd consider scanning and printing on a
color printer--one advantage of which is that I'd get better color
calibration). Counters were carefully mounted front and back on the
type of cardboard used to keep comic books stiff in plastic bags. This
cardboard seems a bit flimsy, but the additional weight and the
laminated cardboard-glue-paper structure gives it about the same
stiffness as standard countersheets. I cut the counters with a paper
cutter (care is needed here both to make sure the cuts are on the lines
and to make sure you don't slice off a thumb!).
The board was assembled in "mosaic" fashion and mounted on
foamboard--the kind used in some art mounting. I don't consider this as
successful as the counters--while the board lies very flat, and it can
be folded (because I cut through the foam at strategic locations with a
utility knife and a ruler), it doesn't have enough mass to keep it from
being jostled. Plywood or mapboard blanks probably would have been
better.
Cards were done with regular black and white photocopies mounted on
blank index cards, then cut to uniform size and shape. This isn't as
nice as real cards--the copied cards are less resilient and more prone
to creasing, thus harder to shuffle--but about as good as I could
expect. Make sure you use a type of cement that doesn't crack when you
bend it--I think I used rubber cement.
The rulebook of course was simply photocopied.
Actually, in the case of this game, the copy was both an archival
project and a restoration, since the original came with some water
stains on the cards.
Derk Solko
> I play with the copy. If anything happens to it, I can go back to the
> source and make a new one.
>
...And then you do the hokie-pokie and turn yourself around...
I can't believe you do this for each game _before_ you play. I realize
that you and I are on completely different ends of the boardgaming
spectrum (wargame vs. German), but that's still astonishing. Oh well,
whatever flips your switch, I guess.
Elliot Wilen
Derk Solko <fabi...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> ell...@emf.emf.net (Elliot Wilen) wrote:
>> I play with the copy. If anything happens to it, I can go back to the
>> source and make a new one.
>>
>{much snippage}
>
>that you and I are on completely different ends of the boardgaming
>spectrum (wargame vs. German), but that's still astonishing.
Of course you shouldn't believe I "do this for each game _before_ I
play." I never claimed that I did. To summarize what I've already
written, I've made one copy of one valuable game, and I play using the
copy. If the copy is damaged, I can replace parts of the play copy by
referring back to the original. With *some* other games, I've made
photocopies or scans of the unpunched countersheets as an inventory aid
and a source to make replacements if anything gets lost. Depending on
how familiar you are with wargames, you may or may not realize that
there are games with many, many different types of pieces, where the
number of each type is a "hard" limit on the number that are used in
the game, and where the quantity and/or characteristics of the types is
documented nowhere but in the countermix itself. The loss of a counter
can thus cause a (mild to severe) distortion of the play balance. In
fact, in some games--notably fantasy wargames--there are classes of
units with only one exemplar. Losing one of these pieces could be
enough to completely cripple game play. So spending twenty-five cents
or so on some photocopies is good insurance against having to spend
scores of dollars on another copy of a game (and hours of time tracking
it down if it's out of print).
Wile E. Coyote
then punch and play. For the same reasons, to serve as a counter manifest
and a possible source for replacement parts.
But, have you tried using plastic card covers (used by Magic and CCG
players)? My copy of We the People, Hannibal, For the People (and probably
Paths of Glory) and Blue & Grey get this treatment since I find cards are
among the first game components to show wear. Protected cards are a little
tricky to handle but the peace of mind I get from them are worth it.
I also spray my glossy wargame counters with 2 light coats of clear laquer
before I punch them. This greatly reduced counter wear, just be sure to use
LIGHT coats to avoid ink runs (like my copy of Titan, alas).
WEC
-------------
Michael T. Richter
> What do you think about this? Do you just punch the counters
> of the award-winning, out-of-print game you just bought for
> $150 because the game was meant to be played with? Or do you
> make copies of all game components, then wrap the game in a
> soft cloth, place it in an air-tight plastic zip-lock bag and
> store each and every game in a seperate wooden box? ;-)
Well, I rather doubt I'd ever pay $150 for a game just because it was rare.
Still, if I actually ever did get a lobotomy and paid for such a game, I'd
immediately punch and organize it to play it.
--
Michael T. Richter <m...@ottawa.com> http://www.igs.net/~mtr/
PGP Key: http://www.igs.net/~mtr/pgp-key.html
PGP Fingerprint: 40D1 33E0 F70B 6BB5 8353 4669 B4CC DD09 04ED 4FE8
GerryG3
I punch it, regardless of value. I do believe in protecting the pieces, so I
set maps under plexiglas, spray counters with Testor's Gloss-Cote, cut them,
not literally punch them out, ban greasy foods, etc.
Then I call my collector buddies and put them on the speaker phone as I cut the
counters, so they can hear it! and me their screams of anguish.
No, really, I suppose if a collector wanted to trade me a punched copy in
otherwise unsullied condition for my cherry copy, and he threw in something
extra, a big something extra, I'd trade. I don't think of I have much of value
that's mint, maybe SPI's The Conquerors, Erik France's Bentonville, and that's
it. Hmmm, think we'll play them next month, John.....
Scvsheldjk
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! --John