Icy Manipulator vs. Attack
Lisa Richardson
>The general question is: how good is an Icy Manipulator at preventing
>a creature from attacking? I know that when it taps something, the
>card owner gets the chance to tap it at the same time to generate an
>effect. Does this include tapping to attack? I assume the answer
>is no. Otherwise, I suppose the IM would have to be used between
>opponent's upkeep & draw, after the creature has been untapped,
>and before it can attack?
Depends on how the creature is attacking. If it is a special effect of a
creature, then it would not be too effective. If you were doing this during
his attack declaration, he still does damage, because you should have done it
before he declared attacks. I think this is also the same for when he declares
defense, because you are still blocked by the creature, but he does no damage
to you. (IE: jumping a blocked attacker.)
>We have also played that once a player says he's attacking, it's
>too late to Icy any of his creatures to prevent them from attacking.
>But I've just noticed that there is a phase 0.a in the attack sequence
>in which the defender can use fast effects before the attacker has
>declared what's attacking, so I guess we've been playing it wrong.
Once he declares his attacking creatures, it is too late to icy manipulate an
attacker. If you do it before he declares his attack, you can do it.
--
Lisa Richardson (aka Priss on about a half dozen MUCKs)
pr...@glia.biostr.washington.edu and/or pr...@anime.tcp.com
"Live fast, Die young, and make hearts melt as you go away" - Lisa Richardson
Priss the MUF Wizard of _AnimeMUCK_ at anime.tcp.com (128.95.10.106) 2035
Tom Wylie
>> is Robert Hearn
>>The general question is: how good is an Icy Manipulator at preventing
>>a creature from attacking? I know that when it taps something, the
You gotta time it right. Simplest to tap the sucker during your opponent's
upkeep phase and be done with it...
>>card owner gets the chance to tap it at the same time to generate an
>>effect. Does this include tapping to attack? I assume the answer
>>is no...
Correct.
>Depends on how the creature is attacking. If it is a special effect of a
>creature, then it would not be too effective. If you were doing this during
There's only one way to attack, and that's to start the attack subphase.
Poking someone with Tim, for example, is not an attack, it's merely using
a fast effect.
>his attack declaration, he still does damage, because you should have done it
>before he declared attacks. I think this is ... the same for when he declares
>defense, because you are still blocked by the creature, but he does no damage
>to you. (IE: jumping a blocked attacker.)
Correct.
>Once he declares his attacking creatures, it is too late to icy manipulate an
>attacker. If you do it before he declares his attack, you can do it.
Correct. The rules just say you have to give your opponent a chance to
respond to instants and the end of a phase; declaring an attack is merely
starting a subphase, so once you declare it, it happens, and your opponent
cannot respond until you've assigned attacks. (Am pretty sure that's
the reason, anyway.)
Tom Wylie | What is the difference between apathy and ignorance?
aa...@hal.com | I don't know, and I don't care.
Philip Dutre
|> >attacker. If you do it before he declares his attack, you can do it.
|>
|> Correct. The rules just say you have to give your opponent a chance to
|> respond to instants and the end of a phase; declaring an attack is merely
|> starting a subphase, so once you declare it, it happens, and your opponent
|> cannot respond until you've assigned attacks. (Am pretty sure that's
|> the reason, anyway.)
That's not what it says in the huge rules clarifications file posted here a few
days ago. If you declare your attack, that actually means: "I'm going to attack,
so you still have the chance to do some fast effects." Since Icy manipulating
a creature is a fast effect, you can still prevent one creature from
attacking.
So, the order is as follows:
A declares he's going to attack
B (and A) have the opportunity to do fast effects
A taps his creatures he wants to attack with
The same goes for the end of your turn. "I'm done" really means "I'm done unless
you want to do any fast-effects".
--
| Phil Dutre Dept. Computer Wetenschappen |
| phi...@cs.kuleuven.ac.be Katholieke Universiteit Leuven (KUL)|
| Phone: (32) 16 201015 x3094/3552 Celestijnenlaan 200A |
| Fax: (32) 16 205308 B-3001 Heverlee, BELGIUM |
Lisa Richardson
>That's not what it says in the huge rules clarifications file posted here a few
>days ago. If you declare your attack, that actually means: "I'm going to attack,
>so you still have the chance to do some fast effects." Since Icy manipulating
>a creature is a fast effect, you can still prevent one creature from
>attacking.
Uh... I think you are misunderstanding what he is saying. Yes, people will
say they are going to attack, HOWEVER, if you already declared certain
creatures for the attack and THEN icy manipulate a creature already commited to
the attack, you will get your hand slapped. It needs to be done BEFORE
creatures declared for the attack are put into play.
Robert Hearn
find the answer in either the FAQ or the rules clarifications.
The general question is: how good is an Icy Manipulator at preventing
a creature from attacking? I know that when it taps something, the
card owner gets the chance to tap it at the same time to generate an
effect. Does this include tapping to attack? I assume the answer
is no. Otherwise, I suppose the IM would have to be used between
opponent's upkeep & draw, after the creature has been untapped,
and before it can attack?
We have also played that once a player says he's attacking, it's
too late to Icy any of his creatures to prevent them from attacking.
But I've just noticed that there is a phase 0.a in the attack sequence
in which the defender can use fast effects before the attacker has
declared what's attacking, so I guess we've been playing it wrong.
Am I on track here, or is there something I'm missing? Seems to me the
clarifications on Icy Manipulator should mention what happens when you
tap to prevent an attack.
--
Bob Hearn
Spartacus Software
he...@claris.com
Opinions expressed here are those of my employer, since that's me.
Richard Pieri
>>>>> "RH" == Robert Hearn <Bob_...@qm.claris.com> writes:
RH> The general question is: how good is an Icy Manipulator at preventing
RH> a creature from attacking?
Nearly perfect.
RH> I know that when it taps something, the card owner gets the chance to
RH> tap it at the same time to generate an effect.
If the effect is a fast effect, then this is correct. The use here is to
force the opponent to use the effect when you want him to rather then when
he wants to.
RH> Does this include tapping to attack?
Of course not.
RH> I assume the answer is no. Otherwise, I suppose the IM would have to
RH> be used between opponent's upkeep & draw, after the creature has been
RH> untapped, and before it can attack?
Correct.
RH> We have also played that once a player says he's attacking, it's
RH> too late to Icy any of his creatures to prevent them from attacking.
Not true. Before the attack phase, you always have the opportunity to play
fast effects. If your opponent declares he's attacking, you can tell him to
back up so you can play the fast effects at the end of the main phase. If
he declares he will attack (unless you have fast effects), and you don't
play any fast effects, /then/ it's too late.
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Christopher Racicot
question from Bob_Hearn:
> The general question is: how good is an Icy Manipulator at preventing
> a creature from attacking? I know that when it taps something, the
> is no. Otherwise, I suppose the IM would have to be used between
> opponent's upkeep & draw, after the creature has been untapped,
> and before it can attack?
> We have also played that once a player says he's attacking, it's
> too late to Icy any of his creatures to prevent them from attacking.
> But I've just noticed that there is a phase 0.a in the attack sequence
> in which the defender can use fast effects before the attacker has
> declared what's attacking, so I guess we've been playing it wrong.
> Am I on track here, or is there something I'm missing? Seems to me the
> clarifications on Icy Manipulator should mention what happens when you
> tap to prevent an attack.
I've read all of the Icy Manipulator posts with interest, since my usual
opponent and I both frequently put one in our decks. I haven't seen
anyone address one particular issue (maybe it's because I have an incorrect
definition of "paradox" but anyhow, here goes)
The Icy Manipulator has a key phrase at the end of it's description:
"Target card generates no effects"
Now, as I understand the rules about arbitrating fast effects, if
there's a paradox (direct contradiction), the responder decides on
the ordering of things. So, it seems like there are two cases:
1) attacker taps monster-X and announces an attack
defender Icy-manipulates monster-X
2) defender Icy-manipulates monster-X before attacker announces an attack
defender announces an attack with monster-X (bear with me here...)
Since tapping to attack and icy manipulating are both fast effects,
and they are directly contradictory (i.e. either the card generates
an effect or it does not),
I'd say in case 1, the icy-manipulator gets to decide in what order the
fast effects occur. Thus he'll say that the Icy-manipulation happens
first, thus rendering the creature unable to attack.
And in case 2, the defender gets to decide. Of course, he'll choose
to have the attack happen first, thus generating the attack and tapping
the card, rendering the icy manipulation useless.
This implies to me that the Icy Manipulator is a primarily reactive
card. You should wait until someone does something you don't want
them to do, then icy manipulate them, so you get to decide the order
and thus render the effect useless.
I'm kind of expecting to be told that I'm incorrect about this issue,
since the explanations I've seen thus far seem to be making different
assumptions than I am. If the above reasoning is incorrect, please
explain in detail. Thanks.
--Chris Racicot (crac...@oracle.com)
Robert Hearn
> >>The general question is: how good is an Icy Manipulator at preventing
> >>a creature from attacking? I know that when it taps something, the
> >>card owner gets the chance to tap it at the same time to generate an
> >>effect. Does this include tapping to attack? I assume the answer
> >>is no...
>
> Correct.
Good.
> The rules just say you have to give your opponent a chance to
> respond to instants and the end of a phase; declaring an attack is merely
> starting a subphase, so once you declare it, it happens, and your opponent
> cannot respond until you've assigned attacks. (Am pretty sure that's
> the reason, anyway.)
But the latest General Rulings post describes the Attack Sequence in gory
detail, and it begins like this:
0. Declare intention to attack.
a. Opponent gets the chance to use any fast effects or instants in
response to this claim.
b. ...
1. Declare attackers ... by tapping them.
So it seems like there is an instant between declaration of intention to
attack and declaration of attacking creatures during which a creature
could become tapped. So I should be able to wait until my opponent says
he's going to attack to decide whether to use the Icy on a creature. If
he doesn't attack, and instead says he's done, (rulings also say "I'm
done" means "I'm done unless you're going to do something else"), I can
tap something else with it instead, a wall, say, and have the Icy untap
for another use during my turn.
Is this correct, or is the General Rulings document mistaken? I know it's
not an official document, but the Attack Sequence apparently was pieced
together from the FAQ.
----------
M J Cleaton
crac...@us.oracle.com (Christopher Racicot) writes:
>The Icy Manipulator has a key phrase at the end of it's description:
>"Target card generates no effects"
Yup, but it doesn't mean what you think it means. Read
"Target card generates no effects as a result of being manipulated"
instead. It just means it doesn't automatically provide mana (for either
player), poke (under the control of either player) or anything else as a
result of being twiddled/manipulated.
So you don't get any of the contradictions you're after
~Cookie
Lionel R. Clark
> = aa...@hal.COM (Tom Wylie)
>> = Lisa Richardson <pr...@tcp.com>
>>> = Robert Hearn
>>>The general question is: how good is an Icy Manipulator at preventing
>>>a creature from attacking? I know that when it taps something, the
>There's only one way to attack, and that's to start the attack subphase.
>Poking someone with Tim, for example, is not an attack, it's merely using
>a fast effect.
>>Once he declares his attacking creatures, it is too late to icy manipulate an
>>attacker. If you do it before he declares his attack, you can do it.
>Correct. The rules just say you have to give your opponent a chance to
>respond to instants and the end of a phase; declaring an attack is merely
>starting a subphase, so once you declare it, it happens, and your opponent
>cannot respond until you've assigned attacks. (Am pretty sure that's
>the reason, anyway.)
Aren't the jurors still out on that one, Tom? "Once you
declare it, it happens" sounds a little Slappish to me... I
think they might be changing the Combat announcement to be a Fast
Effect, like Upkeep... which would mean you can use the
manipulator in response, BEFORE tapping the creatures... I hate
to say it, but they've swayed me over to their side now, too...
--
- Bishop
"Pain means Life" -- CF OCdt Cadieu, BOTCh 9111, on a very LONG
(Email replies please) stretch of roadway...
Perhaps a Princess...
below? I want some feedback:
(This is a cross-post from the rec.games.board discussion.
Sorry for anyone that gets it twice)
In article <Feb6.192...@acs.ucalgary.ca>,
Lionel R. Clark <bis...@acs.ucalgary.ca> wrote:
@> = aa...@hal.COM (Tom Wylie)
@>> = Lisa Richardson <pr...@tcp.com>
@>>> = Robert Hearn
@>>>The general question is: how good is an Icy Manipulator at preventing
@>>>a creature from attacking? I know that when it taps something, the
@>There's only one way to attack, and that's to start the attack subphase.
@>Poking someone with Tim, for example, is not an attack, it's merely using
@>a fast effect.
@
@>>Once he declares his attacking creatures, it is too late to icy manipulate an
@>>attacker. If you do it before he declares his attack, you can do it.
@
@>Correct. The rules just say you have to give your opponent a chance to
@>respond to instants and the end of a phase; declaring an attack is merely
@>starting a subphase, so once you declare it, it happens, and your opponent
@>cannot respond until you've assigned attacks. (Am pretty sure that's
@>the reason, anyway.)
@
@ Aren't the jurors still out on that one, Tom? "Once you
@declare it, it happens" sounds a little Slappish to me... I
@think they might be changing the Combat announcement to be a Fast
@Effect, like Upkeep... which would mean you can use the
@manipulator in response, BEFORE tapping the creatures... I hate
@to say it, but they've swayed me over to their side now, too...
Hrm. I don't like this. why should your opponent have the
advantage of knowing WHAT you attack with before they decide
what to Icy Manipulate? The Manipulator is powerful enough
as it is, it doesn't need this power boost.
You are welcome to use the Icy Manipulator or any other fast effect
in the Upkeep phase of your opponent's turn, before they enter
Main and have a chance to declare an attack. AND, Your Opponent
HAS to give you a chance to do fast effects.
AS well, I believe I heard somewhere that fast effects are
allowed as a reaction to end of phase in the new rules.
ANd, again, your opponent HAS to give you a chance to perform
them. So, they have to give you a chance to use your Icy
Manipulator in reaction to the end of upkeep phase.
Also, you can use it anytime in the Main phase BEFORE the attack
declaration.
However, the moment you declare your creatures are attacking, they
are tapped. Using the Icy manipulator to tap them at the same
time does NOT prevent them from attacking. Or shouldn't, IMHO.
Icy manipulator is not an interrupt. It wants a creature to
be tapped when it finishes. When a creature is declared to
attack, it is tapped. The Icy does not, and should not,
IMHO,be allowed at this point to keep the creature from
attacking. The person waited too long to use it.
OTOH, the attack declaration is not a fast effect, so if the Icy
taps a creature before the attack, you can NOT declare
an attack as a fast effect to the Icy's tap.
--
Sarah E. Heacock sa...@eskimo.com
.sig dedicated to the memory of Gene Roddenberry "The Great Bird of the Galaxy"
Lisa Richardson
>However, the moment you declare your creatures are attacking, they
>are tapped. Using the Icy manipulator to tap them at the same
>time does NOT prevent them from attacking. Or shouldn't, IMHO.
>Icy manipulator is not an interrupt. It wants a creature to
>be tapped when it finishes. When a creature is declared to
>attack, it is tapped. The Icy does not, and should not,
>IMHO,be allowed at this point to keep the creature from
>attacking. The person waited too long to use it.
Icy Manipulator, even though the effect is an instant, once a creature in in
the charge of the attack, he is already commited to it... He cannot be
prevented from attack with the Icy Manipulator. Now if it was Lightning
Bolted, Rod of Ruined or other some such means, it would work. THIS is what he
is talking about, not Icy Manipulating something.
Dan Thompson
problems. The answer is *slow*down*. Everybody gets a chance to do fast
effects just about all the time.
In this case, it's my turn, and you want to use IM to tap one of my creatures
so it can't attack. Dialog:
ME: I Fireball you for 4.
YOU: Bummer. [ takes damage ]
ME: I attack with my--
YOU: Wait a minute. You're starting your attack phase?
ME: Yes.
YOU: I have a fast effect to respond to the end of your last phase. I use Icy
Manipulator to tap your Vampire.
ME: Bummer. [ I tap the creature; it can't attack. ]
In fact, between IM and things like the Nettling Imp, the dialog in my group
always goes something like this:
ME: I Fireball you for 4.
YOU: Bummer. [ takes damage ]
ME: I'm starting my attack phase.
YOU: I tap your vampire before the start of your attack phase.
ME: Bummer. I attack with my other creatures, since that one's tapped.
Declaring the start of your attack phase before you declare attackers makes
life a lot easier, and it doesn't change anything about what you can and can't
do.
--
Big Dan -- da...@austin.ibm.com +----+
| O | O
"This is the song borrowed for the chase scene; +-----+ #- |===== \/#\
This is the song, Rocky and Ken, +/\--------+ #
He tried to kill him with a forklift . . ." \/ \/ / \
Tom Wylie
>YOU: Bummer. [ takes damage ]
>ME: I attack with my--
>YOU: Wait a minute. You're starting your attack phase?
Careful there. An attack is not a phase, it's something you can do during
the main phase. Yes you pause for mana burn when it starts and ends, and
yes you can respond to its start with fast effects, but you cannot respond
to its end with fast effects like you could end of phase. This is an important
distinction: you can't use the "gain 3 life" part of Healing Salve between
the start of damage dealing and checking for 0 life points at the end
of combat, for example.
>Declaring the start of your attack phase before you declare attackers makes
>life a lot easier, and it doesn't change anything about what you can and can't
>do.
Very true.
Dave Casper
kill files because you don't tag the game you're talking about
in the subject line.
Would you guys *PLEASE* add the MTG tag (as I have abvove) as a
courtesy to the rest of the group?
Thanks.
Craig Lewis
>problems. The answer is *slow*down*. Everybody gets a chance to do fast
>effects just about all the time.
Yep, this helps a lot in MANY areas of play. I know some people who try to
slip something by because they take 3-4 actions quickly. Causes mondo
arguments sometimes, but they lose the argument every time.
>In this case, it's my turn, and you want to use IM to tap one of my
creatures>so it can't attack. Dialog:
>ME: I Fireball you for 4.
>YOU: Bummer. [ takes damage ]
>ME: I attack with my--
>YOU: Wait a minute. You're starting your attack phase?
>ME: Yes.
>YOU: I have a fast effect to respond to the end of your last phase. I use Icy
> Manipulator to tap your Vampire.
>ME: Bummer. [ I tap the creature; it can't attack. ]
> In fact, between IM and things like the Nettling Imp, the dialog in my group
>always goes something like this:
>ME: I Fireball you for 4.
>YOU: Bummer. [ takes damage ]
>ME: I'm starting my attack phase.
>YOU: I tap your vampire before the start of your attack phase.
>ME: Bummer. I attack with my other creatures, since that one's tapped.
>Declaring the start of your attack phase before you declare attackers makes
>life a lot easier, and it doesn't change anything about what you can and can't
>do.
Definitely more courteous, and also now the rule. The last rules summaries
give a LONG definition for the ENTIRE attack phase. The FIRST part is to
declare attack. Fast effects ARE allowed after attack declaration, so Icy can
be used at this time.
After all fast effects have been declared and completed, then the attacker
declares all attacking creatures (and bands), tapping them (except Serra
of course). Icy Manip CAN'T be used now. Once declared attacking, it will
attack unless it is killed.
Thomas Doehne
In article <2joivb$d...@perv.hal.COM> aa...@hal.COM (Tom Wylie) writes:
>Dan Thompson <da...@austin.ibm.com> wrote:
>>YOU: Wait a minute. You're starting your attack phase?
>
>Careful there. An attack is not a phase, it's something you can do during
>the main phase. Yes you pause for mana burn when it starts and ends, and
>yes you can respond to its start with fast effects, but you cannot respond
>to its end with fast effects like you could end of phase. This is an important
>distinction: you can't use the "gain 3 life" part of Healing Salve between
>the start of damage dealing and checking for 0 life points at the end
>of combat, for example.
Careful there! The FAQ uses the term 'attack phase'. The
attack is therefore a phase, according to the rules + FAQ.
The FAQ uses the term three times, including the place
where it lays out the detailed attack phase. This has not
been changed by any ruling since the last FAQ, as far as I know.
While your reasoning is good about not being able to respond to
the end of phase, its conclusion is incorrect. You're
assumming that the different parts of Magic rulings are
consistent. As we all know well, that's not always true....
--
Tom Doehne
doe...@cse.ogi.edu
Tom Wylie
Why? Because a phase is something you only do once during your turn.
Moreover, it starts and then it ends. Can you do some upkeep, continue
with draw and making an attack, and then finish upkeep? No. why?
Because upkeep is done in the upkeep phase.
With that in mind, try and reconcile the following statements:
1. There is only one main phase.
2. There is an attack phase.
3. You can place a land and/or cast spells before an attack.
4. You can place a land and/or cast spells after an attack.
If attacking were a phase, then you would *have* to either do
it before your main phase, or finish your main phase before attacking.
But you don't. You attack in the middle of a main phase. So one
of the above statements must be false; the obvious choice is 2.
Attacking is a subphase. Declaring attackers/blockers are steps.
Yes, even the NetReps slip and use the wrong terms; we all did it
on gg-l for a few days until someone pointed out that is was misleading.
(Do I get any points for not just saying "sorry, you're wrong"?)
Robert Hearn
> The FAQ misspoke and the attack phase is not a phase.
>
> Attacking is a subphase. Declaring attackers/blockers are steps.
> Yes, even the NetReps slip and use the wrong terms; we all did it
> on gg-l for a few days until someone pointed out that is was misleading.
So what are the consequences of this? Are you saying that there is
no instant in which the defender can play fast effects after the attacker
has said he's attacking but before he declares his attackers?
Should we throw away the attack sequence the FAQ lays out?