Guillotine question
v...@aol.com
mark_mo...@yahoo.com wrote:
> OK, this came up last night as we were playing. The line was set up so
> that there was a blue noble at the head of the line, next to the
> guillotine, and another, more valuable blue noble further down the
> line. One of the players played a card that allowed him to move the
> blue noble closest to the front of the line to the front of the line.
> He tried to move the more valuable noble past the blue noble that was
> at the front, and we said no way, that he would have to take the blue
> noble that was already at the front of the line.
>
> His point of contention was that closest to the front didn't mean
> front, and we were stating that you can't get any closer to the front
> than the front.
>
I agree, you can't get any closer to the front of the line than being
first in line.
But that's just my opinion...lol
> Any opinions? He ended up agreeing that he could not take the noble,
> but I would like to have a ruling on this for next time.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mark M.
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Ivan
<mark_mo...@yahoo.com> wrote
> Any opinions? He ended up agreeing that he could not take the noble,
> but I would like to have a ruling on this for next time.
I agree also, that being at the front of the line is as close as you can
get.
Ivan.
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Klytu
Klytu
(Magic, The Gathering), I am sure that you will also find some rules
contradictions in Guillotine.
Our group had many discussions about that Guillotine card that always moves
to the end of the line (Master Spy, I think) after an action card is played.
For example, do you resolve the effect of the played card and then move the
Master Spy to the end of the line; or do you immediately move the Spy to the
end and then resolve the effects of the played card. The rules are not
altogether clear on this and are vague in some other situations as well. If
your group plays Guillotine often, I would strongly suggest that you all
agree and make note of your own house rules to cover ambiguous cases.
orwell
>Our group had many discussions about that Guillotine card that always moves
>to the end of the line (Master Spy, I think) after an action card is played.
>For example, do you resolve the effect of the played card and then move the
>Master Spy to the end of the line; or do you immediately move the Spy to the
>end and then resolve the effects of the played card. The rules are not
>altogether clear on this and are vague in some other situations as well. If
>your group plays Guillotine often, I would strongly suggest that you all
>agree and make note of your own house rules to cover ambiguous cases.
It's always been clear for us..... play the card, move the spy, complete the
action on the card.
Sometimes that's the only way to catch the bugger!
orwell
Mike . Schneider
> Our group had many discussions about that Guillotine card that always moves
> to the end of the line (Master Spy, I think) after an action card is played.
> For example, do you resolve the effect of the played card and then move the
> Master Spy to the end of the line; or do you immediately move the Spy to the
> end and then resolve the effects of the played card. The rules are not
> altogether clear on this and are vague in some other situations as well. If
> your group plays Guillotine often, I would strongly suggest that you all
> agree and make note of your own house rules to cover ambiguous cases.
The only way to grab the Master Spy is by a card that directly yanks
him out, regardless of positions (reversing the order of the line will not
get him, since he just bounces to the other end), or by getting rid of all
the other nobels in the line.
Mike Schneider, VRWC Sentinel Outpost. "Autoguns, on-line!" +--+--+--+
Reply to mike1@@@winternet.com sans two @@, or your reply won't reach me.
RABBLE, n. In a republic, those who exercise a supreme authority
tempered by fraudulent elections. The rabble is like the sacred
Simurgh, of Arabian fable -- omnipotent on condition that it do
nothing. (The word is Aristocratese, and has no exact equivalent
in our tongue, but means, as nearly as may be, "soaring swine".)
-- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary", cc 1888
Sylvain Fétiveau
>
> It's always been clear for us..... play the card, move the spy, complete
> the action on the card.
It's always been clear for us too... play the card, complete the action
on the card, move the spy
He's a lot more difficult to catch this way !
Klytu
on the card, move the spy
He's a lot more difficult to catch this way !<
This is the way our group plays, also. The fact that there are two different
'clear' ways to play supports my original comment: that the rules are not
completely clear on some issues.
Klytu
citing this situation as an example of an area where the rules are not
altogether clear.
Russ Williams
"Klytu" <jazzy...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8p36gv$jpo$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> Our group had many discussions about that Guillotine card that always
moves
> to the end of the line (Master Spy, I think) after an action card is
played.
> For example, do you resolve the effect of the played card and then move
the
> Master Spy to the end of the line; or do you immediately move the Spy to
the
> end and then resolve the effects of the played card. The rules are not
Wow, I've played Guillotine with literally dozens of people and have never
encountered anyone who thought the Master Spy gets moved before the action
is resolved...!
Given that the rules say "Play an action card (optional)" as the name of the
entire action card phase, it seems pretty clear that "play" means "resolve"
rather than "announce" or "pick" an action card. I'll agree that the rules
are not crystal clear on it. I'd argue the "spirit" of the rules seems
pretty clear in this case even if you don't find the "letter" of the rules
clear (the master spy is surely supposed to be hard to catch).
cheers,
russ
http://www.kofightclub.com
Russ Williams
<mark_mo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8p0lfr$8ig$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> His point of contention was that closest to the front didn't mean
> front, and we were stating that you can't get any closer to the front
> than the front.
Sounds like he wants to be a Rules Lawyer but lacks the necessary logic
skills. :) The front of the line is certainly closest to the front...
russ
jrb
looked for info on the web and haven't found anything...
Is it fun? How many players? What type of game?
Who makes it and where can I find out more about it...
Thanks,
James Bentley
jrbe...@htcomp.net
In article <8p5kf1$fg8$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>,
Ichabod
> Could someone please tell me more about this "Guillotine" game....I've
> looked for info on the web and haven't found anything...
> Is it fun? How many players? What type of game?
> Who makes it and where can I find out more about it...
It's made by Wizards of the Coast (www.wizards.com) and its for
2 to 6 or 7 players (can't remember the upper end). It's a fun
beer & pretzels game. It's about beheadings during the French
Revolution. There's a line of nobles waiting to be beheaded. You
play a card, and collect the noble at the begining of the line,
each person worth a different number of points. The cards change
the order of the line for the most part, although they can screw
with other players or give you more points depending on what type
of nobles you have collected. You go through three rounds, and
whoever has the most points wins. It's all done with cards,
although there is a big cardboard headsman to indicate the
front of the line.
---
Craig "Ichabod" O'Brien
Burger-flipper of the electronic age
Vote for Ralph Nader
Richard Rognlie
>
> Could someone please tell me more about this "Guillotine" game....I've
> looked for info on the web and haven't found anything...
> Is it fun? How many players? What type of game?
> Who makes it and where can I find out more about it...
It is a card game. It is the days after the french revolution, and the
nobles are lined up to be beheaded. Each noble has a certain point
value, and each player on their turn will get the noble who is at the
front of the line. You have cards that affect the order of the nobles
in the line. You want to maximize your score (duh!)
A fun game. From Wizards of the Coast
http://www.hobbiesandgames.com/gamepages/rcwoc6400.html
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\__/ |
Klytu
of their experience with the many errata in Magic: the Gathering, another
Wizards of the Coast game. In MTG, 'playing' a card and having its effects
resolve are two distinct events that sometimes have different consequences.
There are other instances in Guillotine where 'playing' a card and having
its effects resolve mean different things. Unfortunately I do not have a
copy of the game handy, so it is difficult to be specific. But I do remember
some strange combinations of effects that occurred in our games that
apparently were not considered by the folks who wrote the rules. So even
though the rules *seem* to be clear that "play means resolve rather than
'pick' or 'annouce' an action card", we have learned to take nothing for
granted when playing Wizards of the Coast games!
Mike . Schneider
<nospam...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> Wow, I've played Guillotine with literally dozens of people and have never
> encountered anyone who thought the Master Spy gets moved before the action
> is resolved...!
What are you calling "action is resolved"?
For instance, if a card calls for moving three spaces forward, is the
movement the resolution, or the collecting of the head?
I'd argue that, in this case, the Spy temporarily moves three spaces
forward -- but then hops to the end of the line before you can take him.
L. Scott Johnson
>
> It could be that many Guillotine players are unclear about this rule because
> of their experience with the many errata in Magic: the Gathering, another
> Wizards of the Coast game. In MTG, 'playing' a card and having its effects
> resolve are two distinct events that sometimes have different consequences.
"... than if they were not distinct", I believe you mean.
Yes, and there are specific rules in MtG stating such (TTBOMK).
In the absence of such rules, the "default" rule seems to be that playing a
card and applying the effect(s) of playing it are not distinguishable
events - one is equivalent to the other. See <any given non-collectible
card game>.
> There are other instances in Guillotine where 'playing' a card and having
> its effects resolve mean different things. Unfortunately I do not have a
> copy of the game handy, so it is difficult to be specific. But I do remember
I believe that there are possibly some other examples of cards that can
have different effects if the play and the resolution are separate
vs. when the play and the resolution are the same thing, but I don't
believe that there are any cards in Guillotine where the "default"
rule that playing a card means resolving its effects causes any confusion
or ambiguity.
> some strange combinations of effects that occurred in our games that
> apparently were not considered by the folks who wrote the rules. So even
> though the rules *seem* to be clear that "play means resolve rather than
> 'pick' or 'annouce' an action card", we have learned to take nothing for
> granted when playing Wizards of the Coast games!
The default rules should be taken for granted in general except when
the actual rules override them (or if the default rules yield ambiguity,
of course). For instance, one normally assumes that by "hand", the
rules refer to the set of cards from which you can play - the cards
that you can look at but no other player can see.
Then it just becomes a problem of agreeing on what the default rules are,
of course. But the existence of a rule in MtG is certainly not enough for
me to assume that it is a default rule. :-)
--
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http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | vegetation off of that wall,"
Graphics Specialist and V:TES Rulemonger | Tom divined.
L. Scott Johnson
>
> >I believe that there are possibly some other examples of cards that can
> >have different effects if the play and the resolution are separate
> >vs. when the play and the resolution are the same thing, but I don't
> >believe that there are any cards in Guillotine where the "default"
> >rule that playing a card means resolving its effects causes any confusion
> >or ambiguity.
> >
> during some other player's turn.
That's akin to saying that Fountain of Blood doesn't resolve when played,
but rather when the game is concluded.
In actuality, the cards are resolved when played by following the instructions
on the cards (e.g., putting Fountain of Blood in play, or choosing a player in
the case of Rush Job). Once played/in play/resolved, they affect the game as
described on their texts.
> also in the case of "Rush Job" since the target player is not allowed to play an
> action card during his/her turn the spy would not be moved to the back of the line
> following the target player's action phase since no action card was played as
> required per the Spy card.
Right. No ambiguity there. ('course, the spy would already be at the back of
the line, so moving him there wouldn't accomplish much anyhow.)
wlh
play an action card during his/her turn the spy would not be moved to the
back of the line following the target player's action phase since no action
card was played as required per the Spy card.
>
>Right. No ambiguity there. ('course, the spy would already be at the back of
>the line, so moving him there wouldn't accomplish much anyhow.)
>
If "confusion in line" was in effect on the player going just before the
player on which "rush job" was chosen then the Spy might not be at the end.
Russ Williams
"Mike . Schneider" <trai...@jumpingfrog.com> wrote in message
news:traingame-060...@ppp-67-97.dialup.winternet.com...
> In article <cwvt5.29825$C5.6...@typhoon.austin.rr.com>, "Russ Williams"
> <nospam...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> > Wow, I've played Guillotine with literally dozens of people and have
never
> > encountered anyone who thought the Master Spy gets moved before the
action
> > is resolved...!
>
>
> What are you calling "action is resolved"?
Doing whatever the action card says.
> For instance, if a card calls for moving three spaces forward, is the
> movement the resolution, or the collecting of the head?
The collecting of the head has nothing to do with the action card.
Collecting head at the front of the line is a separate phase that comes
after the Play Action Card phase. (So just to be clear, the answer to your
question is "the movement is the resolution, not the collecting of the
head.")
> I'd argue that, in this case, the Spy temporarily moves three spaces
> forward -- but then hops to the end of the line before you can take him.
Yes, that is what I believe as well.
russ
http://www.kofightclub.com
Alan Kwan
>"Rush Job" and "Confusion in Line" effects are not resolved at time of play but
>during some other player's turn.
What happens if the day ends before the target player's next turn? Is
the card effect applied on his first turn on the following day, or is
it cancelled?
"Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / ta...@notmenetvigator.com
http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core video game reviews)
Tarot Games Hong Kong: http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot/com
(please remove anti-spam section "notme" from mailing address)
Russ Williams
"Alan Kwan" <ta...@notmenetvigator.com> wrote in message
news:39b8e6d2...@news.netvigator.com...
> On Thu, 07 Sep 2000 14:45:22 GMT, wlh...@earthlink.net (wlh) wrote:
>
> >"Rush Job" and "Confusion in Line" effects are not resolved at time of
play but
> >during some other player's turn.
>
> What happens if the day ends before the target player's next turn? Is
> the card effect applied on his first turn on the following day, or is
> it cancelled?
Rush Job says "cannot play an action card on his or her next turn", not "on
his or her next turn, if any, in the current day".
Confusion in line says "before that player collects his or her next noble",
not "before that player collects his or her next noble, if any, in the
current day".
Thus there seems no ambiguity to me...
Of course a real rules lawyer could also say "what if the game ends before
their next turn? Does this mean that when you play another game of
Guillotine later, that player can't play an action card on their first turn?
:) I think the obvious meta-rule comes into play here that game effects
don't last past the end of the game. :)
Another subtle point about Confusion in Line: it says "before that player
collects his or her next noble", not "that player's next turn". Remember
that in a few circumstances "collecting a noble" and "taking your turn" are
not the same, e.g. Political Influence action card makes you not collect a
noble on the turn you play it, so I would say a player who'd had Confusion
in Line played on them would have the effect linger on if, on their own
turn, they played Political Influence, and the line would not be shuffled
that turn but on some later turn when they actually do collect a noble.
cheers,
russ
http://www.kofightclub.com