MtG: Infinite turns (How do I get them?)
Chris - Janus
I remember some folks a few weeks ago talking about a combination of
three cards which, when put together, allowed the player to get an infinite
number of turns in a row. What was this combination?
You see, I just opened a booster pack with the TIME VAULT card in it,
and I know this was one of the three. What are the others?
Lisa Richardson
This is one of those 'F***-you over' decks... Time Vault, Instill Energy and
Animate Artifact. Assuming you can keep Time Vault out, and assuming you can
get Animate Artifact out to animated it and assuming you can get Instill Energy
to untap it... You now have the item from hell. Of course, this will make
everyone not want to play with you for the rest of your natural life or if you
try to bring it into play.
How it works:
Time Vault allows you to 'tap' it to take another turn. To use it again, you
have to skip 1 turn at ANY time to UNTAP it. Meaning, that, sure, you can
spack down the time vault, tap it to give yourself another turn at whacking
your opponent, but the price of it is to lose a turn to your opponent if you
want to use it later.
Animate Artifact takes the summoning cost of the artifact and uses that to give
the artifact power and strength equal to the casting cost of the artifact.
Thus, making the artifact a Creature. Using this to make the Time Vault a 2/2
creature... With this... You can do...
Instill Energy. This allows a TAPPED creature UNTAP before end of turn. This
is useful for creatures like Sea Serpents and such where you want them to
attack AND block like Serra Angels. since the Time Vault is now a creature,
you use Time Vault like a creature with special abilities. You tap it to gain
the extra turn, then untap it by the rule of Instill energy. Since you don't
pay the turn lost, the opponet MUST have a Shatter, Deathgrip or Red Elemental
Blast, or even a disenchant to get rid of one of the items to make this trio
work. Otherwise, end game. Reason? The Card Specifically States fo Time
Vault:
Tap to gain an additional turn after the current one. Time Vault doesn't untap
normally during untap phase; to untap it, you must skip a turn. Time Vault
begins tapped.
Once Instill Energy gets plopped on. The player can now UNTAP the Time Vault
before next turn. If you do not get one of the 4 spells mentioned above
against it... You will never get out of the problem. Tranquility will work if
you have it. But the ones I stated above are instants or interrupts that can
be played. And since the player is not untapping it during untap/upkeep phase,
it is not violating the card rules. As I quoted... 'Tap to gain an ADDITIONAL
TURN AFTER THE CURRENT ONE.' Which means, 2nd turn with the vault, after
untap/upkeep... He taps the time vault, (1 more turn) attacks with his
creatures and spells, untaps the time vault (Instill energy rules to help
block). End current turn and advance to additional turn. Same manuevers
again.
By this time, you will either run out of lands for tapping or creatures to
block with and get pummelled.
Suggestions: Be sure to hold on to some good instants for this... Like
Elemental blasts, shatters, Disenchants and such... Also, don't assume 1 or 2
will be enough. Players with said cards can load down a few extra animate
artifacts or instill energies to keep it up. Your best shot would be to ruin
the artifact, or get out point for point artifacts and hope he won't get any
disenchants, elemental blasts or shatters to take them out as well.
--
Lisa Richardson (aka Priss on about a half dozen MUCKs)
pr...@glia.biostr.washington.edu and/or pr...@anime.tcp.com
"Live fast, Die young, and make hearts melt as you go away" - Lisa Richardson
Priss the MUF Wizard of _AnimeMUCK_ at anime.tcp.com (128.95.10.106) 2035
Kimbo Beattie
In fact, you don't really even have to "stack" your deck to counter it.
Remember that an Instant can be cast at any time. With this in mind,
let's take a look at the cards that can stop the above combo.
Lightning Bolt -- for the cost of one red mana you can blow the now
animated Time Vault away. It is only a 2/2 creature.
Psionic Blast -- A little more expensive, but the result is the same.
Pestilence -- will do the trick very nicely too, thank you.
All of the above do require mana available and sometimes that might not
be the case. So, my very favorite way of stopping the "time distortion"
combo is:
ORCISH ARTILLERY! -- Once down, it cost nothing to tap and do two points of
damage to any target, including the now Animated Time Vault. Two points
is enough damage to destroy the Time Vault. It's worth the loss of three
of my own life points to a)stop the combo and b) see the dumbfounded look
on my opponents face as I blow his Time Vault away. :)
--Kimbo
Lisa Richardson
>The Time Vault/Animate Artifact/Instill Energy combo IS NOT unbeatable.
>In fact, you don't really even have to "stack" your deck to counter it.
I didn't say it was unbeatable, unless you lack the right cards. You still
have to stack your deck to counter it to avoid problems, since you are dealing
with probability and also the matter of being able to get out what you need.
Tom Lehmann
Blast that can do in the Time Vault/Animate Artifiact/Instill Energy combo. In
addition to spells such as Counterspell, Powersink, Death Grip, etc. that can
prevent the combo from being formed, any instant spell which does 2+ points of
damage to a creature will also do the job quite effectively. i.e. Lightning
will send all three cards to the graveyard for the cost of a red mana; powering
up (an already cast) Pestilence for 2 points will also do the job; etc. Other
possibilities include using a Nettling Imp to force the animated Timevault to
attack and then casting Berserk on it to destroy it.
Note that a Twiddle or Icy Manipulator can't be used to buy a turn of your own
to react to this combo since even though "no effects are generated by the
target card" when they are tapped in this manner, the player can still choose
to tap the Time Vault as an interrupt to the Twiddle/IM usage, thus keeping
his or her infinite turn cycle going. But a Nettling Imp will either buy you a
turn (since an attacking Time Vault will be tapped without generating an
extra turn) or will destroy the thing (if it doesn't attack).
If you can get a turn, then all sorts of spells can be used to remove this
combo including Tranquility, Disintegrate, Terror, etc.
So, why this combo is nasty, it certainly isn't all powerful since good players
often keep a little something (such as lightning or counterspell) in reserve to
deal with unexpected situations that arise on their opponent's turn.
While deck construction is clearly important to MtG, there is surprising scope
for good play as well, which is often missed by people new to it.
tom
Adept Array Op
twister and time walk. Combine w/ mox gems and lightning bolts.
Put in enough of each card to get you to 40+ cards so you can afford
to drop one in the ante. One of the few counters is a deck identical
to it. Once played, you should never be able to give you opponent
another turn and kill 'em.
--
===============================================================================
Work is the fingernails on the blackboard of life.
===============================================================================
Chris Martell
re: using Orcish Artillery against the Time Vault combo.
(sorry, can't find the quote function on this system)
How could you do this? You can't attack with Orcish Artillery until your
next turn, but you won't ever get a next turn. So how does that one do any
good?
This isn't a flame, just a question. I'd like to know how your doing that.
Thank you,
Chris.
--
*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*
{ Chris Martell }
[ netmail address ]
[ ]
Andrew Brecher
(Chris Martell) said:
>
> re: using Orcish Artillery against the Time Vault combo.
> (sorry, can't find the quote function on this system)
>
> How could you do this? You can't attack with Orcish Artillery until your
>next turn, but you won't ever get a next turn. So how does that one do any
>good?
Because you don't attack with it, you use its special ability. Creatures'
special abilities are always instants, I believe.
-Andrew Brecher (andrew_...@brown.edu) (insert disclaimer here)
Lisa Richardson
>Note that there are other spells besides Disenchant, Shatter and Red Elemental
>Blast that can do in the Time Vault/Animate Artifiact/Instill Energy combo. In
>addition to spells such as Counterspell, Powersink, Death Grip, etc. that can
>prevent the combo from being formed, any instant spell which does 2+ points of
>damage to a creature will also do the job quite effectively. i.e. Lightning
>will send all three cards to the graveyard for the cost of a red mana; powering
>up (an already cast) Pestilence for 2 points will also do the job; etc. Other
>possibilities include using a Nettling Imp to force the animated Timevault to
>attack and then casting Berserk on it to destroy it.
Firstoff, Counterspell only works if it was in your hand to begin with and it
was used to prevent the summoning of Time Vault, or the enchanting of the
artifact with the instill energy or animate artifact. Powersink, deathgrip are
also the same, assuming you can get deathgrip out in time. The options I
presented are commond and CHEAP ways to get out of it, since you will need 2
islands for counter spell, 2 forest to use deathgrip, and a lot of mana to make
the powersink worth the chance. Pestilence is overkill, since first off, you
need black mana to pump it up. Also, Nettling Imp and Berserk are 1 in 60
chance of getting if you play a 60 card deck.
>If you can get a turn, then all sorts of spells can be used to remove this
>combo including Tranquility, Disintegrate, Terror, etc.
Wrong on the Terror. Terror does not work on Artifact Creatures. Anime
Artifact turns an Artifact into an artifact creature.
>So, why this combo is nasty, it certainly isn't all powerful since good players
>often keep a little something (such as lightning or counterspell) in reserve to
>deal with unexpected situations that arise on their opponent's turn.
It is when one is not expecting it in the deck. Not every one will tell you
what is in their deck.
Lisa Richardson
> re: using Orcish Artillery against the Time Vault combo.
> (sorry, can't find the quote function on this system)
>
> How could you do this? You can't attack with Orcish Artillery until your
>next turn, but you won't ever get a next turn. So how does that one do any
>good?
> This isn't a flame, just a question. I'd like to know how your doing that.
Creature Special powers, such as Tapping a Samite Healer to prevent 1 point of
damage to any target, to the Prodigal Sorceror tap to do 1 point of damage to
any target works. The scenario of 2 Tims popping up in combat (Two Prodigal
Sorcerors). Both Tims can wipe each other out by poking each other back. All
Creature abilities are considered Instants.
Scott Emery
In article <priss.7...@tcp.com>, pr...@tcp.com
(Lisa Richardson) writes:
:> I remember some folks a few weeks ago talking
:>about a combination of three cards which, when put
:>together, allowed the player to get an infinite
:>number of turns in a row. What was this combination?
:This is one of those 'F***-you over' decks... Time Vault,
:Instill Energy and Animate Artifact. Assuming you can keep
:Time Vault out, and assuming you can get Animate Artifact
:out to animated it and assuming you can get Instill Energy
:to untap it... You now have the item from hell. Of course,
:this will make everyone not want to play with you for the
:rest of your natural life or if you try to bring it into play.
:
:How it works:
<detailed explanation deleted>
The easiest way to DEAL with this is to *disallow* it.
Ya see, it really takes a major *twisting* of the rules
(is this a game for Lawyers?) to make this combo work.
Common sense says that if you instill energy on an animated
time vault, you can untap the "creature" more than once, but
you can't FILL the D**n thing up with time again unless you
spend the time by skipping your turn.
Otherwise you could just Twiddle your time vault and get the
same effect (almost).
This combo ONLY works because it is so complicated that
the people who use it are willing to argue more than play
the game. i.e., win the game by "wearing your opponent
down with arguing instead of strategy".
I also disallow twiddle on the Time Vault to get "3 mana from
nowhere", and I *do* allow my opponents to Jump over my
already placed blockers.
Why?
Because that is the OBVIOUS intent of the game.
and because I despise *leagaleese* in my game playing.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Emery | "I can't stand legaleese in my game playing!"
Sem...@tau.sim.es.com
Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp.
Salt Lake City, Utah
"I think, therefore my company doesn't claim my opinions."
------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Pieri
>>>>> Emery) writes:
semery> The easiest way to DEAL with this is to *disallow* it.
Just don't play with the guy if he insists on using f***-you-over decks.
semery> Ya see, it really takes a major *twisting* of the rules
semery> (is this a game for Lawyers?) to make this combo work.
No twisting; just being really cheap and deliberately constructing the most
powerful deck you can. Over on rec.games.frp we call someone like this a
munchkin.
--
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Matthew Moss
Scott Emery <sem...@tau.sim.es.com> wrote:
>--
>In article <priss.7...@tcp.com>, pr...@tcp.com
>(Lisa Richardson) writes:
>
>:> I remember some folks a few weeks ago talking
>:>about a combination of three cards which, when put
>:>together, allowed the player to get an infinite
>:>number of turns in a row. What was this combination?
>
>time vault, you can untap the "creature" more than once, but
>you can't FILL the D**n thing up with time again unless you
>spend the time by skipping your turn.
>
Isn't it true, even if you untap the animated artifact, it
CANNOT attack again, because there is only ONE attack phase in
a turn? Or did I miss something....
--
+---------------------------+-------------------------------------------------+
| Matthew D Moss :-p ;-) | I tried to think of an extremely witty quote to |
| INTERNET: mm...@panix.com | put here. Unfortunately, there's no room left. |
+---------------------------+-------------------------------------------------+
Andrew Brecher
A good way to disallow it, without angering an opponent who happenes to like
legalise, is to point out that the Time Vault says that you >must< skip a
turn in order to untap it, and that can be interpreted as overruling anything
a Twiddle or Instill Energy says.
Carl da Fuzz and Karen Silver Cravens
You CAN Twiddle the Time Vault or Basalt Monolith to "reset" them... that's
obviously what Twiddle is for. The Time Vault + Animate Artifact + Instill
Energy combo works... the guys who designed the game said so. It's a legal,
OBVIOUS use of the cards.
One of the big parts of Magic is finding new and interesting ways to use cards
.. and you're saying that because someone trys something unique that he's
a rules lawyer trying to bully his way into winning?
You can't play Magic by "obvious intent"... you have to play it by the rules
exactly as they are written, which means things like Fog won't stop a Basilisk.
(Snark says it oughta, but there's nothing on the cards that says it does,
so it doesn't.)
The Basalt Monolith doesn't sayother cards can't untap it, so unless the other
card specifically says it can't, it can.
Time Vault doesn't exclude other cards from untapping it... etc.
da Fuzz
Lisa Richardson
>>Common sense says that if you instill energy on an animated
>>time vault, you can untap the "creature" more than once, but
>>you can't FILL the D**n thing up with time again unless you
>>spend the time by skipping your turn.
>Isn't it true, even if you untap the animated artifact, it
>CANNOT attack again, because there is only ONE attack phase in
>a turn? Or did I miss something....
Apparently, Someone trimmed out the explanation, so I'll make it short so it
can't be cut. First off, Time Vault does not have to be filled with 'time' if
instill energy 'untaps' the 'creature artifact'. This means that a person can
tap it for 1 extra turn after that one, then use instill energy to untap it.
Do all your attacks with spells and OTHER creatures, end your turn. Now go to
your next turn. Tap Time Vault to get another turn at the end of this one.
Untap it and do the same thing again bye attacking with other creatures and
spells. End turn and repeat the cycle. So long as timevault is UNTAPPED, it
CAN BE TAPPED for its special ability. There is no legalise to it... It can
be allowed, and there is little arguement about it.
Andrew Brecher
Cravens <DAF...@delphi.com> said:
>You CAN Twiddle the Time Vault or Basalt Monolith to "reset" them... that's
>obviously what Twiddle is for. The Time Vault + Animate Artifact + Instill
>Energy combo works... the guys who designed the game said so. It's a legal,
>OBVIOUS use of the cards.
Strange, didn't you just say that you won't take the designers' word for
anything until it's written up officially & distributed?
>Time Vault doesn't exclude other cards from untapping it... etc.
Sure it does. Why else would it say you >must< skip a turn in order to untap
it? What other possible meaning could it have besides overruling other
means of untapping it?
Scott Emery
:>Isn't it true, even if you untap the animated artifact, it
:>CANNOT attack again, because there is only ONE attack phase in
:>a turn? Or did I miss something....
No, I missed something. You can attack then *block* again.
: Apparently, Someone trimmed out the explanation, so I'll
: make it short so it can't be cut. First off, Time Vault does
: not have to be filled with 'time' if instill energy 'untaps' the
: 'creature artifact'. This means that a person can tap it for
: 1 extra turn after that one, then use instill energy to untap it.
: Do all your attacks with spells and OTHER creatures, end
: your turn. Now go to your next turn. Tap Time Vault to get
: another turn at the end of this one. Untap it and do the same
: thing again bye attacking with other creatures and spells.
: End turn and repeat the cycle. So long as timevault is
: UNTAPPED, it CAN BE TAPPED for its special ability. There
: is no legalise to it... It can be allowed, and there is little
: arguement about it.
except for the line (according to Andrew Brecher) that says
you >must< skip a turn in order to untap it.
--It was a better (hypothetical) explanation though.--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Emery | "I can't stand people who have no impatience!"
bi...@its.bldrdoc.gov
In article <2fqdb5$1...@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, <ST00...@brownvm.brown.edu> writes:
> >Time Vault doesn't exclude other cards from untapping it... etc.
>
> Sure it does. Why else would it say you >must< skip a turn in order to untap
> it? What other possible meaning could it have besides overruling other
> means of untapping it?
Ah, you need to read the rest of the text on the card. It says, "Time
Vault doesn't untap normally during untap phase; to untap it, you must
skip a turn." So, if you want to untap it during your untap phase, you
>must< skip a turn. I, however, wish to untap it during some other
time during my turn. The only two ways to untap something outside the
untap phase is with Twiddle or Instill Energy.
Similarly, consider a lowly Craw Wurm. The rules say that a creature
can only be untapped during the untap phase. Twiddle is a special card
that >breaks the rules<. You can untap a Craw Wurm anytime with it.
Why is this situation any different than the Time Vault?
You say a Time Vault needs to be filled with "Time" to untap it. Can I
untap a Mox with Twiddle? I did not fill it with "Mana". What happens
to the "Time" in a Time Vault when you use your Icy Manipulator on it?
If you can't create "Time" with a Twiddle, you can't kill "Time" with
the Manipulator.
Bottom line -->> It's Magic. A Twiddled Vault magically fills with
"Time".
+----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
|Bill Ingram | "I know Darth Vader's |
|Bill b | really got you annoyed. |
|B bing | But remember if ya kill him |
| bing@its | you'll be unemployed." |
| bi...@its.bldrdoc | |
| bi...@its.bldrdoc.gov | -- Yoda (to Luke), Weird Al Yankovich |
+----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
Andrew Brecher
>> >Time Vault doesn't exclude other cards from untapping it... etc.
>>
>> Sure it does. Why else would it say you >must< skip a turn in order to
untap
>> it? What other possible meaning could it have besides overruling other
>> means of untapping it?
>
>Ah, you need to read the rest of the text on the card. It says, "Time
>Vault doesn't untap normally during untap phase; to untap it, you must
>skip a turn." So, if you want to untap it during your untap phase, you
>>must< skip a turn. I, however, wish to untap it during some other
>time during my turn. The only two ways to untap something outside the
>untap phase is with Twiddle or Instill Energy.
You're reading into it more than what's there. That sentence is saying two
things: 1) Time Vault doesn't untap normally during untap phase, and
2) To untap it, you must skip a turn.
It does >not< say "To untap it during the untap phase, you must skip a turn".
Unless you're saying that the presence of the semi-colon changes the meaning!
>Similarly, consider a lowly Craw Wurm. The rules say that a creature
>can only be untapped during the untap phase. Twiddle is a special card
>that >breaks the rules<. You can untap a Craw Wurm anytime with it.
>Why is this situation any different than the Time Vault?
That's because of the line in the rule book: "If a card contradicts the rules,
the card takes precedence." That's the only reason why a Twiddle works;
the rule book says you can only untap during the untap phase, but Twiddle
contradicts it, so it takes precedence. There is no such rule about one
card's precedence of another, which, IMHO, it needs.
Literalism is a two-edged sword...
>You say a Time Vault needs to be filled with "Time" to untap it. Can I
>untap a Mox with Twiddle? I did not fill it with "Mana". What happens
>to the "Time" in a Time Vault when you use your Icy Manipulator on it?
>If you can't create "Time" with a Twiddle, you can't kill "Time" with
>the Manipulator.
First of all, I don't "say" that.
Second of all, reasonable explanations can be given for any tapping situation.
Most of them involve the release & dissipation of the magic of some card, eg
dissipation of a land's/mox's mana, release of the time in a time vault.
Carl da Fuzz and Karen Silver Cravens
>Strange, didn't you just say that you won't take the designers' word for
>anything until it's written up officially & distributed?
people in charge, though.
>Sure it does. Why else would it say you >must< skip a turn in order to untap
>it? What other possible meaning could it have besides overruling other
>means of untapping it?
Twiddle override this, just because it says it does? Time Vault's "must" is
overridden by other cards that can untap it. Time Vault does not say "can be
only untapped" or "no other effects can untap." Just as a card overrides the
rules, cards override other cards, unless specifically prohibited.
The designers make mistakes in the wording of the cards. Were MtG playtested
by as wide a group of people as the recent products are, (not to mention
the very thorough fine-tooth-combing given by actual customers) Time Vault
would probably say something clearer than "must."
I think I'll suggest that when it comes to playtesting 2nd edition... that the
rules ought to say that cards override the rules of other cards as well as the
rules in the book. I'm sure we'd then find a few conflicts anyway.
da Fuzz
Andrew Brecher
Cravens <DAF...@delphi.com> said:
>>Sure it does. Why else would it say you >must< skip a turn in order to untap
>>it? What other possible meaning could it have besides overruling other
>>means of untapping it?
>
>The rules say you can't untap your cards until the untap phase... why should
>Twiddle override this, just because it says it does? Time Vault's "must" is
>overridden by other cards that can untap it. Time Vault does not say "can be
>only untapped" or "no other effects can untap." Just as a card overrides the
>rules, cards override other cards, unless specifically prohibited.
I think this is our problem. I think the 'must' >does< specifically prohibit
other cards.
How many cards have 'must' in the description? Time Vault, Serendib Djinn
I think come to mind...what else? LotP perhaps, but since that's upkeep
that may be a separate topic.
>The designers make mistakes in the wording of the cards. Were MtG playtested
>by as wide a group of people as the recent products are, (not to mention
>the very thorough fine-tooth-combing given by actual customers) Time Vault
>would probably say something clearer than "must."
Agreed...
>I think I'll suggest that when it comes to playtesting 2nd edition... that the
>rules ought to say that cards override the rules of other cards as well as the
>rules in the book. I'm sure we'd then find a few conflicts anyway.
Not sure that 'cards override other cards' would be enough, since you'll
certain get situations where cards override each other...Maybe just have the
later card override the earlier card, like the timing rules?
Dave Bailey
"Ah, you need to read the rest of the text on the card. It says, "Time
Vault doesn't untap normally during untap phase; to untap it, you must
skip a turn." So, if you want to untap it during your untap phase, you
>must< skip a turn. I, however, wish to untap it during some other
time during my turn. The only two ways to untap something outside the
untap phase is with Twiddle or Instill Energy."
Andrew Brecher responds:
"You're reading into it more than what's there. That sentence is saying two
things: 1) Time Vault doesn't untap normally during untap phase, and
2) To untap it, you must skip a turn.
It does >not< say "To untap it during the untap phase, you must skip a turn".
Unless you're saying that the presence of the semi-colon changes the meaning!"
Now it's my turn. The above comments illustrate just how poorly
worded the Time Vault card is. Grammatically, the card can be read
to have both of the above meanings. The semicolon in the sentence may
indicate that the clause following it refers back to the clause preceding
it, i.e., a turn must be skipped if Time Vault is untapped during the untap
phase. (This implies that Time Vault may be untapped at some other time
during the turn and not suffer the loss-of-turn penalty.) Likewise, the
semicolon may be there solely as a separator for two sentences, suggesting
that the Time Vault is not untapped as normal during the untap phase
AND that the ONLY way it can be untapped (at any time) is by skipping a turn.
Which reading is correct? Aye, there's the rub!
The only way to really know what was intended is to question the designer
of the game. The sentence needs to be rewritten to clear up any ambiguity.
Now, from what I have seen posted on the NET and from answers friends
have received when they have questioned WotC directly, it seems that the
proper reading of the Time Vault card is that a turn must be skipped when
the card is untapped during the untap phase, but does not need to be skipped
if untapped at some other time during the turn.
Is this the correct reading? To those who seek a scientific-type basis for
the Magic universe, probably not. To those who like to think of things as
purely magical, with no need for explanations, probably yes. I believe that,
until WotC comes out with an updated copy of the rules, we must decide
whatever interpretation makes most sense to us and those we play with, and
follow it.
Dave Bailey
dba...@velara.sim.es.com
Scott Emery
In article <2fshil$h...@cnn.sim.es.com>, dba...@tau.sim.es.com (Dave
Bailey) writes:
:I believe that, until WotC comes out with an updated
:copy of the rules, we must decide whatever
:interpretation makes most sense to us and those we
:play with, and follow it.
Here Here!
This question has been discussed to death, and the
real answer is as follows:
Play it whatever way you want, just make sure
your opponent agrees with you.
...Until the new rules come out, anyway.
Roger M Kolaks
> "Time Vault doesn't untap normally during untap phase;
conjunction
> to untap it, you must skip a turn."
phrase--->
<---------independent clause----->
[snip]
...rmk
Dan Reynolds
|>
|> "Ah, you need to read the rest of the text on the card. It says, "Time
|> Vault doesn't untap normally during untap phase; to untap it, you must
|> skip a turn." So, if you want to untap it during your untap phase, you
|> >must< skip a turn. I, however, wish to untap it during some other
|> time during my turn. The only two ways to untap something outside the
|> untap phase is with Twiddle or Instill Energy."
[rest of article deleted]
Here's another way: Animate Artifact + Jandor's Saddlebags from AN. I
used a small black and blue deck this past weekend with some Demonic
Tutors in it to get the Time Vault and Saddlebags out and then animated
it. Party's over unless your opponent has an instant that will kill
the Time Vault or remove the animation.
I play with friends and we have agreed that this combination is truly
evil (I put that deck away and went back to my "Army of Allah" deck;
Crusade + Jihad + Army of Allah is a load of fun ;). The wording on
the Time Vault is truly wretched and we employ a house rule now that
changes the casting cost on the Time Vault to zero. Animates now kill
it and that has made my group happy. I hope WotC will do something
official to remedy the situation as we don't like this "sure winner"
combination. I play White a lot but the notion that I have to keep a
Disenchant + the lands to cast it ready at all times is just too much.
|> Dave Bailey
|> dba...@velara.sim.es.com
Regards,
--
Dan Reynolds Internet: d...@chpc.utexas.edu
Systems Group Phonenet: (512) 471-2472
Center for High Performance Computing Snailnet: 10100 Burnet Road
The University of Texas System Austin, Texas 78758
Lisa Richardson
>I play with friends and we have agreed that this combination is truly
>evil (I put that deck away and went back to my "Army of Allah" deck;
>Crusade + Jihad + Army of Allah is a load of fun ;). The wording on
>the Time Vault is truly wretched and we employ a house rule now that
>changes the casting cost on the Time Vault to zero. Animates now kill
>it and that has made my group happy. I hope WotC will do something
>official to remedy the situation as we don't like this "sure winner"
>combination. I play White a lot but the notion that I have to keep a
>Disenchant + the lands to cast it ready at all times is just too much.
Actually, if something like that were to happen, you be in serious doo doo.
BTW, if playing a deck of 60 cards, the chances of you getting instill energy,
Time vault and animate artifact out at the same time are rather slim. It does
also help to be able to have a Red Elemental blast, Shatter or deathgrip ready
or a few counter spells, icy manipulators or twiddle ready. For the Jandor's
Saddlebags, definitely shatter or disenchant. Also, there is a way to take out
sure winner combinations without a ruling from WotC. You don't play them...
The problem with F***-you over decks, is that one, you are not playing for fun
when you create one, you alienate people from playing you, and if you are the
Ante person, they are NOT going to lose a possible good card to a deck that
will just pound the player when the player is not given a chance to fight back.
Believe it or not, it is also suppose to be a sporting game of skill, not, "Oh,
I have the really cool cards out and I just wasted you with them."
BTW, don't give up unless you know what is in your deck and how long you can
last with your blockers. I have gone against people who played a deck of 300+
cards, most of them rare ones, and be able to beat them because of two
things... 300+ decks tend to have this small problem in getting land out, and
not all rare cards are worth the cost to get out because they sometimes frick
you over more than your opponent.
Dan Reynolds
|> BTW, if playing a deck of 60 cards, the chances of you getting instill energy,
|> Time vault and animate artifact out at the same time are rather slim.
Agreed, so I upped the odds a bit by keeping the deck trim and sticking in
some Demonic Tutors. That deck was one of the nastiest ones I have ever assembled
and, while everyone was aware of the Time Vault/Animate Artifact/Instill Energy
combination, no one else had considered the Saddlebags so there was no big comment
when the Time Vault appeared. Then I animated it and it was plain to see what was
going to happen.
I dubbed it "The Deck of Assassinating Infinity": (56 cards total)
Artifacts: Jandor's Saddlebags x 2, Icy Manipulator x 2, Time Vault, Crystal Rod,
Sol Ring
Blue: Mox Sapphire x 2, Islands x 5
Time Twister x 2, Animate Artifact x 2, Time Walk, Twiddle, Phantasmal
Terrain
Vesuvan Doppleganger, Clone, + 5 x blue critters [some big, some small]
Black: Mox Jet x 3, Swamp x 2
Demonic Tutor x 3, Terror x 2
Royal Assassin, Vampire, Hypnotic Spectre, Wall of Bone, Drudge Skeleton
That sucker's awful: you can't run out of cards because of the two Time Twisters
[unless the second Time Twister gets countered]. The Royal Assassin/Icy Manipulator/
Jandor's Saddlebags trio is horrendous. Tap an opposing creature with the Manipulator
and then destroy it with the Assassin. Untap the Assassin with the second Jandor's
Saddlebags and repeat. Besides the destroying instants, the only counter we could
see to this deck was City in a Bottle to keep the Saddlebags out of play. Even so,
this deck is nasty.
|> It does
|> also help to be able to have a Red Elemental blast, Shatter or deathgrip ready
|> or a few counter spells, icy manipulators or twiddle ready. For the Jandor's
|> Saddlebags, definitely shatter or disenchant. Also, there is a way to take out
|> sure winner combinations without a ruling from WotC. You don't play them...
Yeah, I agree with you. These folks are my friends so I warned them ahead of time.
We've been arguing about the animated Time Vault and this object lesson pretty
much pushed my group to make a decision about it. That done, I put it away because
I play MtG for fun {multiplayer games are getting to be my favorites}.
|> The problem with F***-you over decks, is that one, you are not playing for fun
|> when you create one, you alienate people from playing you, and if you are the
|> Ante person, they are NOT going to lose a possible good card to a deck that
|> will just pound the player when the player is not given a chance to fight back.
|> Believe it or not, it is also suppose to be a sporting game of skill, not, "Oh,
|> I have the really cool cards out and I just wasted you with them."
|>
|> BTW, don't give up unless you know what is in your deck and how long you can
|> last with your blockers. I have gone against people who played a deck of 300+
|> cards, most of them rare ones, and be able to beat them because of two
|> things... 300+ decks tend to have this small problem in getting land out, and
|> not all rare cards are worth the cost to get out because they sometimes frick
|> you over more than your opponent.
Pretty much jives with my thinking, too. I've tried the ``big decks'' and, a lot
of times, I blow up because I can't get land into play. The deck's land/spells/
critters proportions are OK but the shuffle can hose you since you can get long
runs of spells+critters+artifacts with little or no land in there or (just as bad)
long runs of land with no critters or spells in them. I prefer decks of 60-80 cards
that feature good combinations [Pestilence/CoP:Black/Deathgrip, Living Lands/Lure/
Regenerate, Keldon Warlord/Kormus Bell/Living Lands] because I can usually get
some lands, some critters and some spells into play without having to ``pull &
pitch''.
|> --
|> Lisa Richardson (aka Priss on about a half dozen MUCKs)
|> pr...@glia.biostr.washington.edu and/or pr...@anime.tcp.com
|> "Live fast, Die young, and make hearts melt as you go away" - Lisa Richardson
|> Priss the MUF Wizard of _AnimeMUCK_ at anime.tcp.com (128.95.10.106) 2035
All the best,
NICHOLAS GOFFENEY
> Time Vault:
>
>Tap to gain an additional turn after the current one. Time Vault doesn't untap
>normally during untap phase; to untap it, you must skip a turn. Time Vault
>begins tapped.
>
I introduced this to a friend of mine, one who is a self-proclaimed rules
lawyer, and he had the following interesting point: the Time Vault card says,
'to untap it, you must skip a turn', NOT,'to untap it during the untap phase,
you must skip a turn'. This would seem to indicate that ANY time you untap it,
whether during the untap phase, or at some other point, (i.e. with Instill
Energy) you must lose a turn. I am not sure how to take this. What he says
makes sense, especially since this is a ludicrous loophole in an otherwise
carefully balanced game. They DID playtest MtG for a couple of years before
releasing it.
I'm interested in an official opinion on this heinous strategy.
By the way, Lisa, you violated several sections of the Gamer's Geneva
Convention by publicising this information. Why don't you just tell everyone
how to make an atom bomb? }:-)
Nick
NICHOLAS GOFFENEY
>Scott Emery <sem...@tau.sim.es.com> writes:
>
>
>You CAN Twiddle the Time Vault or Basalt Monolith to "reset" them... that's
>obviously what Twiddle is for. The Time Vault + Animate Artifact + Instill
>Energy combo works... the guys who designed the game said so. It's a legal,
>OBVIOUS use of the cards.
>
>One of the big parts of Magic is finding new and interesting ways to use cards
>a rules lawyer trying to bully his way into winning?
>
>You can't play Magic by "obvious intent"... you have to play it by the rules
>exactly as they are written, which means things like Fog won't stop a Basilisk.
>(Snark says it oughta, but there's nothing on the cards that says it does,
>so it doesn't.)
>
>
> da Fuzz
NOT say skip a turn if you untap it during the untap phase. Twiddle, etc.
allow you to untap the Time Vault, but you must still lose a turn. There's
nothing on the card that says it doesn't, so it does.
Just my $10.**6. worth
Nick
Lisa Richardson
>>The Card Specifically States
>> Time Vault:
>>
>>Tap to gain an additional turn after the current one. Time Vault doesn't untap
>>normally during untap phase; to untap it, you must skip a turn. Time Vault
>>begins tapped.
>>
>I introduced this to a friend of mine, one who is a self-proclaimed rules
>lawyer, and he had the following interesting point: the Time Vault card says,
>'to untap it, you must skip a turn', NOT,'to untap it during the untap phase,
>you must skip a turn'. This would seem to indicate that ANY time you untap it,
>whether during the untap phase, or at some other point, (i.e. with Instill
>Energy) you must lose a turn. I am not sure how to take this. What he says
>makes sense, especially since this is a ludicrous loophole in an otherwise
>carefully balanced game. They DID playtest MtG for a couple of years before
>releasing it.
Nope... If you can twiddle it to untap it, you can use Instill Energy to untap
the card.
>By the way, Lisa, you violated several sections of the Gamer's Geneva
>Convention by publicising this information. Why don't you just tell everyone
>how to make an atom bomb? }:-)
Giving out information like this forwarns those who do not know what is going
on to the steps leading up to a possible demise. As a wise man once said,
forewarn means being forearmed in the coming battle, and to be prepared for
what is coming is better than not being prepared for noting.
Lisa Richardson
Ah, but you don't read the card exactly. HEre it is again:
'Tap to gain an additional turn after the current one. Time Vault doesn't
untap normally DURING UNTAP PHASE; to untap it, you must skip a turn. Time
Vault begins tapped.'
Ergo, the meaning stats that you can not untap it at untap phase like you would
any other card. If you want to untap it during untap phase, you would have to
skip your turn. Now, if you use Twiddle (As mentioned by a WotC official), you
can untap it without losing your turn. Also, you can use other fast effects to
untap the artifact, which, in this case, Animate Artifact and Instill Energy
does that.
Mark A Biggar
>The point is, the card says you must skip a turn if you untap it. It does
>NOT say skip a turn if you untap it during the untap phase. Twiddle, etc.
>allow you to untap the Time Vault, but you must still lose a turn. There's
>nothing on the card that says it doesn't, so it does.
Well, if you want to be that picky about the wording of the card, I can be
worse. Yes, it says "must skip a turn", it doesn't say "must skip your
next turn". So, on turn 14, I want the untap my "time vault" I just announce
that I'm skipping turn 1337 and untap it. What you cry, the game won't last
that long! Tough, that's the turn I'm skipping. Humm, maybe a strict literal
reading of the card is not so good after all.
:-) :-) :-) :-) for the humor impared :-) :-) :-) :-)
--
Mark Biggar
m...@wdl.loral.com
NICHOLAS GOFFENEY
>In <5JAN1994...@csa2.lbl.gov> ni...@csa2.lbl.gov (NICHOLAS GOFFENEY) writes:
>
>>>The Card Specifically States
>>> Time Vault:
>>>
>>>Tap to gain an additional turn after the current one. Time Vault doesn't untap
>>>normally during untap phase; to untap it, you must skip a turn. Time Vault
>>>begins tapped.
>>>
>>I introduced this to a friend of mine, one who is a self-proclaimed rules
>>lawyer, and he had the following interesting point: the Time Vault card says,
>>'to untap it, you must skip a turn', NOT,'to untap it during the untap phase,
>>you must skip a turn'. This would seem to indicate that ANY time you untap it,
>>whether during the untap phase, or at some other point, (i.e. with Instill
>>Energy) you must lose a turn. I am not sure how to take this. What he says
>>makes sense, especially since this is a ludicrous loophole in an otherwise
>>carefully balanced game. They DID playtest MtG for a couple of years before
>>releasing it.
>
>Nope... If you can twiddle it to untap it, you can use Instill Energy to untap
>the card.
***<Sound of an AK-47 being fired into the air>***
Now that I have your attention, I will ask you to direct it toward
the semi-colon between the two sentences of interest. As you may have
learned in school, if not from the several posts on this subject in the past
week, the semi-colon MAY imply that the reference to the untap phase applies
to the independent clause following the semi-colon, or it may NOT. As a
result, the card is ambiguous AT BEST.
Regardless of this heinous flashback to high school grammar, I'm not quite
getting you on your specific argument; just how does the the Twiddle's
ability to untap determine, with the extreme certainty your 'nope' seems to
imply, the properties of the altogether different Instill Energy?
Just curious, since you seem to be operating from a position of higher
knowledge that your not sharing with the rest of us.
>Lisa Richardson (aka Priss on about a half dozen MUCKs)
>pr...@glia.biostr.washington.edu and/or pr...@anime.tcp.com
>"Live fast, Die young, and make hearts melt as you go away" - Lisa Richardson
>Priss the MUF Wizard of _AnimeMUCK_ at anime.tcp.com (128.95.10.106) 2035
All the best,
Nick
NICHOLAS GOFFENEY
analyzed at the level of the U.S. Constitution, common sense must take over.
Does it make sense to you that three relatively average cards can completely
annihalate an opponent, God or extreme luck intervening? I am suspicious of
the intentions of anyone who so vigorously defends this combination. Can't
you do better? Whatever happened to good old Berserk Rock Hydras?
Nick
>
Lisa Richardson
>Regardless of this heinous flashback to high school grammar, I'm not quite
>getting you on your specific argument; just how does the the Twiddle's
>ability to untap determine, with the extreme certainty your 'nope' seems to
>imply, the properties of the altogether different Instill Energy?
Read Snark's Answers and FAQ. In there it states that you can Untap a Time
Vault with Twiddle and you can Untap Basalt Monolith with Twiddle. If you can
untap it with a card that can tap/untap any card, I guess a card like Instill
energy that untaps a creature at one other time could do the same.
--
Lisa Richardson
>Touche. Given the fact that most of us agree that these cards cannot be
>analyzed at the level of the U.S. Constitution, common sense must take over.
>Does it make sense to you that three relatively average cards can completely
>annihalate an opponent, God or extreme luck intervening? I am suspicious of
>the intentions of anyone who so vigorously defends this combination. Can't
>you do better? Whatever happened to good old Berserk Rock Hydras?
What are the chances of getting those 3 cards out of a deck of 40? 1 out of
59280. What are the chances of getting all three cards out at the same time?
Pretty darn nil. In a deck of 60? 1 out of 205320. The odds might go down
JUST A LITTLE, if he stacks the deck, but not much. 1 Rare and 2 Uncommon card
making up even 1/2 the deck is overkill trying to get it out. Most of the
time, you will be given the chance to take it out before he can complete the
sequence.
Erik Lauer
>In <6JAN1994...@csa2.lbl.gov> ni...@csa2.lbl.gov (NICHOLAS
GOFFENEY) writes:
>
>>Touche. Given the fact that most of us agree that these cards cannot be
>>analyzed at the level of the U.S. Constitution, common sense must take over.
>>Does it make sense to you that three relatively average cards can completely
>>annihalate an opponent, God or extreme luck intervening? I am suspicious of
>>the intentions of anyone who so vigorously defends this combination. Can't
>>you do better? Whatever happened to good old Berserk Rock Hydras?
>
>What are the chances of getting those 3 cards out of a deck of 40? 1 out of
>59280.
This is an awfully stupid calculation. Lisa gave the odds of drawing three
cards in order, and having a predetermined order which you want the
three cards to appear, and getting just what you want.
Placing just one of each in a deck of 40 gives better than a 1 in 200 chance
of drawing all three in the first 8 cards (generally the number you get by
the end of your first draw phase). Slim odds, but about 300 times a great
as the ones Lisa gave.
The time vault flaw is pretty stupid, but those are the official rules. One
could make the house rule "you can not animate a time vault"...
Lisa Richardson
>This is an awfully stupid calculation. Lisa gave the odds of drawing three
>cards in order, and having a predetermined order which you want the
>three cards to appear, and getting just what you want.
>Placing just one of each in a deck of 40 gives better than a 1 in 200 chance
>of drawing all three in the first 8 cards (generally the number you get by
>the end of your first draw phase). Slim odds, but about 300 times a great
>as the ones Lisa gave.
Are you sure now?I think the odds I just quoted, is quite reasonable, since you
still have to get the lands in order to cast it... In this case, you need 1
Blue Island, 1 Green forest and 4 other source of mana. What are your chances
of getting six lands out? What are the chances of getting Mox or Lotus out to
a sufficient degree to pull out all three spells at once?
Andrew Brecher
>In <5JAN1994...@csa2.lbl.gov> ni...@csa2.lbl.gov (NICHOLAS GOFFENEY)
writes:
>>In article <931227.70...@delphi.com>, Carl \da Fuzz and Karen \Silver
>Cravens <DAF...@delphi.com> writes...
>>NOT say skip a turn if you untap it during the untap phase. Twiddle, etc.
>>allow you to untap the Time Vault, but you must still lose a turn. There's
>>nothing on the card that says it doesn't, so it does.
>
>Ah, but you don't read the card exactly. HEre it is again:
>
>'Tap to gain an additional turn after the current one. Time Vault doesn't
>untap normally DURING UNTAP PHASE; to untap it, you must skip a turn. Time
>Vault begins tapped.'
Preposition placement means everything. Your interpretation contradicts the
phrase: "to untap it, you must skip a turn". It does >not< say "to untap it
DURING UNTAP PHASE, you must skip a turn". Therefore the only consistent
ruling (which I think works better, since it prevents one person from getting
an almost automatic win with IE+AA+TV) is that you must skip a turn if it
untaps.
Unfortunately, that brings up a different problem: what if your opponent
Twiddles it?
Andrew Brecher
NICHOLAS GOFFENEY
>In <6JAN1994...@csa2.lbl.gov> ni...@csa2.lbl.gov (NICHOLAS GOFFENEY) writes:
>
>What are the chances of getting those 3 cards out of a deck of 40? 1 out of
>59280. What are the chances of getting all three cards out at the same time?
>Pretty darn nil. In a deck of 60? 1 out of 205320. The odds might go down
>JUST A LITTLE, if he stacks the deck, but not much. 1 Rare and 2 Uncommon card
>making up even 1/2 the deck is overkill trying to get it out. Most of the
>time, you will be given the chance to take it out before he can complete the
>sequence.
>--
Natural Selection
Aladdin's Lamp
Demonic Tutor
Braingeyser
Ancestral Recall
etc.
Anyway, the point is moot to me. I got several mail messages, some of them
from WotC, and they flatly stated that this was a legal use of Time Vault.
My concern was that people were trying to solve this problem LOGICALLY.
Short of such a WotC declaration, the issue remained intractable,
since the semi-colon in the description of Time Vault allowes for two
interpretations.
After thinking about it a little more, I guess it's not much more devastating
than Fastbond, Rock Hydra, and Berserk: three cards that are very clear
in their definitions.
I guess an interesting thread to start would be other
insta-death combinations. I think this was done before, but I doubt the
subject has been exhausted.
Nick
Lisa Richardson
>In article <priss.7...@tcp.com>, pr...@tcp.com (Lisa Richardson) said:
>>In <5JAN1994...@csa2.lbl.gov> ni...@csa2.lbl.gov (NICHOLAS GOFFENEY)
>writes:
>>Ah, but you don't read the card exactly. HEre it is again:
>>
>>'Tap to gain an additional turn after the current one. Time Vault doesn't
>>untap normally DURING UNTAP PHASE; to untap it, you must skip a turn. Time
>>Vault begins tapped.'
>Preposition placement means everything. Your interpretation contradicts the
>phrase: "to untap it, you must skip a turn". It does >not< say "to untap it
>DURING UNTAP PHASE, you must skip a turn". Therefore the only consistent
>ruling (which I think works better, since it prevents one person from getting
>an almost automatic win with IE+AA+TV) is that you must skip a turn if it
>untaps.
>Unfortunately, that brings up a different problem: what if your opponent
>Twiddles it?
Ah, but you missed someothing else, people CAN Twiddle it to untap the Time
Vault just as they can Twiddle Basalt Monolith as well. WotC ruled you CAN
twiddles a Time vault. If you CAN untap it without skipping a turn, you can
untap it by some other means WITHOUT SKIPPING A TURN.
Mr M J Cleaton
pr...@tcp.com (Lisa Richardson) writes:
>What are the chances of getting those 3 cards out of a deck of 40? 1 out of
>59280. What are the chances of getting all three cards out at the same time?
>Pretty darn nil. In a deck of 60? 1 out of 205320. The odds might go down
>JUST A LITTLE, if he stacks the deck, but not much. 1 Rare and 2 Uncommon card
>making up even 1/2 the deck is overkill trying to get it out. Most of the
>time, you will be given the chance to take it out before he can complete the
>sequence.
The chance of getting all three in the first 8 cards is 7 in 1235, or about
1 in 176. With 60 cards in your deck, it's 14/8555, roughly 1 in 611.
Stacking your deck drops the odds a lot, not a little. Having just two copies
of one of the cards gives you odds of 49 in 4693, or one in 96, with a 40
card deck. Three copies of one card of your choice, and one each of the others,
and you get 1 in 69. Two and a half times as likely as with only one of each.
The sums are a little less trivial when you have multiple copies of more than
one card, but I should think the odds drop quite a bit.
~Cookie
(DISCLAIMER: The above probabilities should be considered in conjunction with
the fact that the probability of them being correct is significantly less
than 1 ;)
Dick Larson
trickier to compute. Remember, you're drawing 8 cards at the start, not just
3. What are the chances that you'll get those 3 cards in 8 chances??? Not at
all bad. Also, the mana problem isn't particularly severe unless you're
talking about turn 1 wins, but there aren't many turn 1 wins available anyway.
If you can get the Vault down turn 1, then a turn 3 win may be trivial.