Villa Paletti winner of Spiel des Jahres 2002
Mik Svellov
This is the first time a dexterity game have ever won the award - but
personally I don't see what makes this game better than Bausach, Bambolero
etc., but it continues the trend of lighter, more simple games begun last
year with Carcassonne...
Mik
Andy Lewis
How does this fit in with the so called "politial" nature of the award and
which company's "turn" it is to win?
Andy Lewis
"Mik Svellov" <brett...@get2net.dk> wrote in message
news:SPrR8.1250$2a....@news.get2net.dk...
Icarus
Andy Lewis wrote:
>>This is the first time a dexterity game have ever won the award - but
>>personally I don't see what makes this game better than Bausach, Bambolero
>>etc., but it continues the trend of lighter, more simple games begun last
>>year with Carcassonne...
Do you truly believe that Carcassonee is "lighter" and "more simple" than:
Elfenland? Mississippi Queen? Call My Bluff? Settlers? Drunter und
Druber? Barbarossa? Heimlich & Co.? Scotland Yard? Enchanted Forest?
Hare and Tortoise?
These are all games that have won and I don't find Carcassonne to be
lighter than any of them. In fact, it would be awfully difficult for
you to convince me it's got less depth than several of them.
icarus
Mik Svellov
"Andy Lewis:
> How does this fit in with the so called "politial" nature of the award and
> which company's "turn" it is to win?
Hi Andy, I wouldn't know.
I have always been a firm believer of the integrity of the jury, and has
never understood the claims some outsiders make. I guess most of these
accusations stem from the unwillingness to comprehend that the award is not
targeted toward gamers, but rather to non-gamers (or maybe "would-be-gamers"
is a better term).
Since yesterday have I learned that at least one serious gamer prefer Villa
Paletti to Bambolero and Hamsterrolle. Apparently it demands less dexterity
skill and greater tactical sense, so it could very well be the concidered
Game of the Year.
Mik
Dave S
> Do you truly believe that Carcassonee is "lighter" and "more simple" than:
>
> Elfenland? Mississippi Queen? Call My Bluff? Settlers? Drunter und
> Druber? Barbarossa? Heimlich & Co.? Scotland Yard? Enchanted Forest?
> Hare and Tortoise?
>
> icarus
Without a doubt.
Dave Shapiro
John Bohrer
> How does this fit in with the so called "politial" nature of the award and
> which company's "turn" it is to win?
> Andy Lewis
No, Andy, this fits in with the fact that the German game market is
very sophisticated and actually is several different markets. PR is an
excellent 'gamer's game'. TA is an excellent family game. VP is an
excellent dexterity game with a surprising new mechanism, rare in
dexterity games. Kudos to both the author and the firm smart enough to
publish it, Zoch. The only market explicitly split from the rest is
the "children's game", all the others are lumped together, 6 different
markets in the final three games. No politics, no 'turn to win', just
what is due in any year by a consensus of old hands. Winsome's
TransAmerica license did not win, but we are not going to whine about
it. We know the sophistication of the world's largest boardgame market
and appreciate it.
I may be biased; for every Winsome Game an American buys we sell ten
(perhaps twenty) to the Germans. They know non-war boardgames, they
don't put their kids in front of a screen with 'Doom', they spend the
time to teach them proper social interaction as a caring parent.
Americans do not, in the normative case.
I do feel for Stephan Bruck of Alea. His development of PR was
magnificent, his lable defines excellence in thought and planning. Now
his label is superceded by the blue Ravensburger triangle simply
because "not enough gamers buy gamer's games". This is a great loss
for all of us.
John Bohrer
Winsome Games
Justin Green
> I may be biased; for every Winsome Game an American buys we sell ten
> (perhaps twenty) to the Germans. They know non-war boardgames, they
> don't put their kids in front of a screen with 'Doom', they spend the
> time to teach them proper social interaction as a caring parent.
> Americans do not, in the normative case.
Here I thought it was because Germans had better taste in beer.
> I do feel for Stephan Bruck of Alea. His development of PR was
> magnificent, his lable defines excellence in thought and planning. Now
> his label is superceded by the blue Ravensburger triangle simply
> because "not enough gamers buy gamer's games".
Agreed...this is clearly a case of improper social interaction by
uncaring corporate executives.
> This is a great loss for all of us.
Buck up, kiddo, Winsome will surely fill the void splendidly.
Icarus
The fact that you so easily dismiss Carcassonne as lighter than ALL of
those games (Call My Bluff?????) makes me question how much thought you
gave to the question.....
I'm extremely curious as to why you believe it is lighter than Call My
Bluff? Drunter und Druber? Hare and Tortoise?
icarus
Jordan Wolbrum
Icarus wrote:
> The fact that you so easily dismiss Carcassonne as lighter than ALL of
> those games (Call My Bluff?????) makes me question how much thought you
> gave to the question.....
I am not the poster you posed this question to, but I'm curious...
What makes a game light in your opinion?
I think Call My Bluff, for example, has more difficult decisions than
Carcassonne. It certainly hurts my brain more. :)
(It happens that I love Carcassonne and think it deserved to win game of the
year because it is similar to Settlers of Catan in its near-universal appeal
among gamers and non-gamers alike, so please don't view that as anti-Carcassonne
bias. I'm a big fan of CMB as well, in case you're wondering. Not so much of
Hare and Tortoise.)
-JW
>
> icarus
Icarus
Jordan Wolbrum wrote:
>
> Icarus wrote:
>
>
>>The fact that you so easily dismiss Carcassonne as lighter than ALL of
>>those games (Call My Bluff?????) makes me question how much thought you
>>gave to the question.....
>
> I am not the poster you posed this question to, but I'm curious...
>
> What makes a game light in your opinion?
Yeah, that's pretty much what I was getting at in a round about way.
"light" is obviously a very subjective term. IME, most people who refer
to Carcassonne as "light" or "simple" because they:
1) dismissed it after one playing
2) didn't realize the full power of playing tiles in different ways
3) are calling it "light" or "simple" in comparison to something like El
Grande or Euphrat & Tigris.
4) simply have a vastly different defintion of "light" than I do.
In the grand scheme of gaming, I would put it toward the lighter side of
the spectrum myself, especially in a situation like number 3. But not
in comparison to ALL of the games I mentioned.
> I think Call My Bluff, for example, has more difficult decisions than
> Carcassonne. It certainly hurts my brain more. :)
Are you saying that "difficult decision" are the sole determinant of
lightness for you?
Certainly Call My Bluff has some agonizing decisions, but they are all
the same. If I bid higher, will the dice be there? and if not, will I
lose the gamble? In the end, while some skill in reading other
people's bluffs may be involved, you're really just figuring out
probabilities and either playing them or taking a gamble. It comes down
to a lot of luck. Even your starting roll can play a big part in how
much of a gamble you might be able to safely take and that's entirely luck.
Carcassonne, on the other hand, offers several possible strategies. In
addition there is intricate interaction between your plays and the plays
of others. IME, the decisions are not only often as difficult as Call
My Bluff, but they are far more varied and multi-leveled. Do I use this
piece to make it more possible to finish my city or do I use it to close
another person's city to keep it from getting larger or do I place it in
such a way that I might be able to get in on his city later.
There are also many different ways to score points and many ways to play
and win. You have an ever-changing game board requiring you to adjust
your plays and strategy to account for it, and so on.
My definition of light comes down to mostly the depth and possibilities
in the game. For example, Mamma Mia, while I love it, is extremely
light. It basically comes down to being able to remember which cards
and pizzas have been played and having the right ingredients and pizzas
in your hand at the right time. Not a lot of depth there, but a fun
game nonetheless.
I'm a big fan of Call My Bluff as well. It hits the game a lot as a
filler that's quick to play. I just don't think it even comes close to
having the depth of Carcassonne. It's almost certainly more "simple"
than Carcassonne.
icarus
Jordan Wolbrum
Icarus wrote:
> Yeah, that's pretty much what I was getting at in a round about way.
> "light" is obviously a very subjective term. IME, most people who refer
> to Carcassonne as "light" or "simple" because they:
>
> 1) dismissed it after one playing
> 2) didn't realize the full power of playing tiles in different ways
> 3) are calling it "light" or "simple" in comparison to something like El
> Grande or Euphrat & Tigris.
> 4) simply have a vastly different defintion of "light" than I do.
>
> In the grand scheme of gaming, I would put it toward the lighter side of
> the spectrum myself, especially in a situation like number 3. But not
> in comparison to ALL of the games I mentioned.
I think I'm in agreement with you. Although I haven't played all of the games
you listed, I'd call some of them heavier and some about the same in terms of
"heaviness." (Maybe MQ is lighter, but I haven't played with the expansion, so
maybe that changes things a bit.)
I might add reason number 5:
5) It has cute pieces. (Never underestimate how quickly a game can be judged
merely by its components.)
> > I think Call My Bluff, for example, has more difficult decisions than
> > Carcassonne. It certainly hurts my brain more. :)
>
> Are you saying that "difficult decision" are the sole determinant of
> lightness for you?
Oh, not at all. Often in a game of Titan, your move is pretty much dictated
for you by dice and board position on a given turn. I wouldn't call Titan a
light game.
> Certainly Call My Bluff has some agonizing decisions, but they are all
> the same. If I bid higher, will the dice be there? and if not, will I
> lose the gamble?
There's the "should I take dice out of my cup and reroll" decision too. I
would say that with reasonable agressive players, you will have very few turns
that create decisions that are not agonizing.
> Carcassonne, on the other hand, offers several possible strategies. In
> addition there is intricate interaction between your plays and the plays
> of others. IME, the decisions are not only often as difficult as Call
> My Bluff, but they are far more varied and multi-leveled. Do I use this
> piece to make it more possible to finish my city or do I use it to close
> another person's city to keep it from getting larger or do I place it in
> such a way that I might be able to get in on his city later.
> There are also many different ways to score points and many ways to play
> and win. You have an ever-changing game board requiring you to adjust
> your plays and strategy to account for it, and so on.
>
Carcassonne is definitely more complex than I thought the first time I played
it. I bought it on an attack of parakeetitis (mmm... pretty pieces), and
thought after the first playing that the whole game was winning farms.
Overlooking the rule that 2-tile cities are worth only 2 points certainly
contributed, but even so, I thought the mechanic was broken. A few games
later, my fiancee said "you always win because you see ways to connect farms up
better than me." Just to spite her, I played only one farmer in our next game
and won by a landslide. :)
The expansion arrived from funagain a few days ago... I am looking forward to
the "all or nothing" tiles and the uber-meeples to add even more dimension to
this game.
> My definition of light comes down to mostly the depth and possibilities
> in the game. For example, Mamma Mia, while I love it, is extremely
> light. It basically comes down to being able to remember which cards
> and pizzas have been played and having the right ingredients and pizzas
> in your hand at the right time. Not a lot of depth there, but a fun
> game nonetheless.
I'm with you here.
> I'm a big fan of Call My Bluff as well. It hits the game a lot as a
> filler that's quick to play. I just don't think it even comes close to
> having the depth of Carcassonne. It's almost certainly more "simple"
> than Carcassonne.
I don't know that I would say simpler (although the rules are simpler). More
shallow might be a more fair term, although with good players, you're really
playing the people and not the game.
-JW
Icarus
Jordan Wolbrum wrote:
<on reasons people find Carcassonne to be "light">
> I might add reason number 5:
>
> 5) It has cute pieces. (Never underestimate how quickly a game can be judged
> merely by its components.)
Ah, good call! I've experienced that phenomenon as well.
<on call my bluff>
> There's the "should I take dice out of my cup and reroll" decision too. I
> would say that with reasonable agressive players, you will have very few turns
> that create decisions that are not agonizing.
Though sometimes that decision is made for you, I definitely agree with
all of that.
> The expansion arrived from funagain a few days ago... I am looking forward to
> the "all or nothing" tiles and the uber-meeples to add even more dimension to
> this game.
oooo, IMO, you're in for a treat. They definitely add much to the game,
especially in the "do I use this to my benefit or my opponents'
detriment" arena.
>>I'm a big fan of Call My Bluff as well. It hits the game a lot as a
>>filler that's quick to play. I just don't think it even comes close to
>>having the depth of Carcassonne. It's almost certainly more "simple"
>>than Carcassonne.
>
> I don't know that I would say simpler (although the rules are simpler).
> More
> shallow might be a more fair term, although with good players, you're really
> playing the people and not the game.
Agreed. When I said simple, I was referring more to the rules and the
basic gameplay. The introduction of the bluffing and trying to guess
what the other players are doing certainly makes it more complex.
icarus