18xx: General rules interpretation question
Mel Nicholson
David Grabiner <grab...@math.lsa.umich.edu> wrote:
>
>If you are at your certificate limit, can you buy a share if this would
>cause you to take over the corporation, thus not increasing the number
>of certificates you hold?
>
>I would say that it should be allowed, under the principle that you must
>rectify any violation of the certificate limits during your turn. For
>
Dirk's Accounting program also forbids this, as does my gaming group.
I don't accept the argument that you can do this simply because the
violation is cleared by the end of the turn. Consider that if you were
at the limit, and no presidency was involved, you could *not* buy a
share of one railroad and then sell one in another (even though the
violation is cleared by end of turn, the illegal transitory state
preclude the move)
The question is whether any such transitory state exists in the case
that the presidency changes hands. If you view the game as going through
two states (one where the common share is acquired to create the plurality
and another where the president's share is traded for two commons), then
the move is clearly illegal. If you treat the entire transaction as a
single state change, then the total number of certificates does not change
and the move is legal. Clearly both programs use the former protocol.
The rules could be made clearer ont this point. Looking at Bill Dixon's
page 14 of the 1856 rules, it states that "If any player every owns a greater
percentage of a company than the current president, that player becomes the
new president . . ." There is a very good protocol specified for the case
where a president sell shares to cause the presidency change, and while an
analogy to that method could be drawn which supports the idea that the
transaction you mention should be illegal, the actual case is not directly
addressed that I can see.
I don't have the 1830 rules handy to refer to.
Mel
David Grabiner
The computer in 1830 pulled the following surprise rule interpretation
on me; I'm wondering whether any 18xx game has a clarification.
If you are at your certificate limit, can you buy a share if this would
cause you to take over the corporation, thus not increasing the number
of certificates you hold?
I would say that it should be allowed, under the principle that you must
rectify any violation of the certificate limits during your turn. For
example, if you have nine certificates of yellow stock and selling just
one will drop the stock into the orange, you don't need to sell four.
However, the computer didn't allow this; I was at the limit, both I and
an opponent had four shares of Erie, and the computer wouldn't let me
buy a fifth share of Erie until I had sold a share.
--
David Grabiner, grab...@math.lsa.umich.edu (note new Email)
http://www.math.lsa.umich.edu/~grabiner (note new Web page)
Shop at the Mobius Strip Mall: Always on the same side of the street!
Klein Glassworks, Torus Coffee and Donuts, Projective Airlines, etc.
David Metheny
In article <ybgik9hi...@mush.math.lsa.umich.edu>, David Grabiner
<grab...@math.lsa.umich.edu> wrote:
> The computer in 1830 pulled the following surprise rule interpretation
> on me; I'm wondering whether any 18xx game has a clarification.
>
> If you are at your certificate limit, can you buy a share if this would
> cause you to take over the corporation, thus not increasing the number
> of certificates you hold?
>
> I would say that it should be allowed, under the principle that you must
> rectify any violation of the certificate limits during your turn. For
> example, if you have nine certificates of yellow stock and selling just
> one will drop the stock into the orange, you don't need to sell four.
> However, the computer didn't allow this; I was at the limit, both I and
> an opponent had four shares of Erie, and the computer wouldn't let me
> buy a fifth share of Erie until I had sold a share.
>
> --
> David Grabiner, grab...@math.lsa.umich.edu (note new Email)
> http://www.math.lsa.umich.edu/~grabiner (note new Web page)
The computer was entirely correct. It follows with train purchases for
corporations as well. In order to acquire the additional certificate you
must first have room in your holdings. It isn't really specified in the
board game rules for 1830 but it is stated specifically in 1835's rules.
The same applies to corporations purchasing trains. While the rules don't
specify this in clear language, they do say it in a round-about way. Even
though the purchase of a train may cause others held by a corporation to
become obsolete, the railroad cannot buy the new train if it's already at
the limit.
All 18xx games I've played follow this concept.
The only way you can hold more than the certificate limit is to have one
or more of your holdings in the yellow or lower. It is a strategy of some
players to drive a company down to do this but it doen't always work.
Especially if the other players are wise to you and do things to screw you
up. Be careful if you try it.
David Metheny
Editor, Rail Gamer Magazine
Michael..Schneider
> The computer in 1830 pulled the following surprise rule interpretation
> on me; I'm wondering whether any 18xx game has a clarification.
>
> If you are at your certificate limit, can you buy a share if this would
> cause you to take over the corporation, thus not increasing the number
> of certificates you hold?
>
> I would say that it should be allowed, under the principle that you must
> rectify any violation of the certificate limits during your turn. For
> example, if you have nine certificates of yellow stock and selling just
> one will drop the stock into the orange, you don't need to sell four.
> However, the computer didn't allow this; I was at the limit, both I and
> an opponent had four shares of Erie, and the computer wouldn't let me
> buy a fifth share of Erie until I had sold a share.
If you are at the share limit, you must sell, *then* buy (unless the
shares you buy do not count).
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