SFB Hydran Analysis (was Re: Lyran Folly)
ja...@nwu.edu
> There look to be very few differences between the Captain's rules and
>the latest Doomsday Edition. I guess this is one of them. In the Captain's
>rules, cripple Stingers keep their goddamned ph-G's.
Hold it a minute-- Captain's rules _IS_ the Doomsday Edition. Do you mean
Commander's?
>
> Are the Hydrans actually reasonable in the Doomsday edition? (I don't
>have it, but have looked through it a few times.)
Do you mean reasonably powerful or reasonably weak? I haven't perused
Commander's edition to be able to compare them... Doomsday presents Hydrans
weak enough to lose the battle for their homeworld during the General War,
but powerful enough to take it back before the end, and then powerful enough
thereafter to aid the LDR later on...
The biggest asset I see of the Hydrans in Doomsday is the versatility on the
fleet level: nearly every ship they build comes in both Hellbore and Fusion
versions, which allows the Hydran fleet commander a little more room to
shake things up in any given scenario, IMHO...
--
James Klock
My two cents. Keep the change.
Richard Bell
Owen Reynolds <reyn...@cs.iastate.edu> wrote:
>
> Lyrans have these great anti-hellbore ESGs, so I thought. Turns out
>activating your ESGs will be the last thing you ever do in a medium-sized
>or larger fleet action due to the "automatic hit" rule.
>
Umm, each HB is resolved individually, and they only hit automatically if
the ESG field still has points left. This seldom results in more than two
hits for each activated ESG, and allows you to tempt him to fire HB's before
he can take advantage of any damage that they might inflict, or distract him
from more worthwhile targets.
Max_Natzet
In a fleet/squadron battle, it also allows the Lyran to choose the target.
One ship can provide cover for a dozen. Keep a bunch of PF inside the ESG and
the Hydran may not want to fire the HBs at all for fear of disturbibg the Hive.
Max Natzet, Mechanical Engineer
NASA/Wallops Flight Facility
E-Mail: Max_N...@CCMail.GSFC.NASA.GOV
Owen Reynolds
where they collected all the stuff from various erratas and put it in
one place. Among people I know, there was unamimous agreement the Hydrans
were underrated on BPVs and had ships that were individually too
powerful.
As a fleet, I think they're fine, since the Klingons and Lyrans have
a huge numerical advantage. A popular subject for jokes, though, was
how you were supposed to be able to play Federation and Empire by fighting
out any battles using SFB rules. You could take any "equal" F&E match-up
involving Hydrans and the SFB fight would be lop-sided in favor of the
Hydrans.
Some of my many gripes: Stingers are far too powerful and too cheap.
Compared to Klingon fighters they are faster, tougher and dish out much
more damage, while costing 2-3 points more. A winning tactic in many
scenarios is merely "Fly at speed 29 with a whole lot of 10 ECM Stingers."
Their ships mostly have unified hull, and lots of it, and center warp
on the destroyers. They are really, really good at overruns because of
the way internals have such a small effect on them. For a refitted fusion
cruiser, you have 4 ph-2's, 2 ph 1's and a pair of gattlings. Every third
phaser hit destroys a "good" phaser, but the phaser 1's satisfy this
condition.
The hellbore ships seem to be at a disadvantage, paying 3 points/turn
to arm the things, but they have even more power than the Klingons do!
They now take some of the best-built ships in the game and casually
add the most powerful fighters in the game.
Hellbores are less-than-great against a ship with several shields at
the same strength -- but wait! -- you can fire hellbores as 'direct' fire
and resolve damage at different times during the same fire segment. This
means you can shoot a pair at the facing shield, a phaser 1 at the facing
shield, and then the other pair as regular hellbores (which are now
assured of doing the most damage to the facing shield.)
Lyrans have these great anti-hellbore ESGs, so I thought. Turns out
activating your ESGs will be the last thing you ever do in a medium-sized
or larger fleet action due to the "automatic hit" rule.
I always assumed these were more-or-less accidents. Center warp and
hull just turned out to be more effective, etc... and hoped they were maybe
fixed in the lastest edition. Making crippled Stingers drop the ph-G is
a step in the right direction.
D.J.S. Damerell
>where they collected all the stuff from various erratas and put it in
>one place. Among people I know, there was unamimous agreement the Hydrans
>were underrated on BPVs and had ships that were individually too
>powerful.
Well, I can only speak for the Captain's edition.
> Some of my many gripes: Stingers are far too powerful and too cheap.
>Compared to Klingon fighters they are faster, tougher and dish out much
>more damage, while costing 2-3 points more. A winning tactic in many
>scenarios is merely "Fly at speed 29 with a whole lot of 10 ECM Stingers."
Fly backwards at speed 29 and range 11 and chew them up with photons/
ruptors/ plasma shotguns/ drone swarms (ph-2 Swordfish set for range 2
will really f**k off Stinger swarms - set for range 1 if they have no
drone ID capability with them - so will Type-IVs with 1.5 spaces internal
armour - this will kill a boosted Stinger, and it takes most of a gatling
to kill it, and it can take a T-Bomb and survive :-) Try and draw out the
chaff using rubbish drones first, then drop the shatter-packs) - you may
not be killing a lot of them, but what can they do to you? Then once
you've killed most of the squadron, pull a face in Energy Allocation and
slow down to speed 22. This lets them close to range 3 - the Hydran will
be so relieved at closing with you we hope he won't notice how few
fighters he has left - then your ADDs can chew them up merrily, as you
just freed up enough power for ECCM (you do have a scout, don't you?)
> Their ships mostly have unified hull, and lots of it, and center warp
>on the destroyers. They are really, really good at overruns because of
>the way internals have such a small effect on them. For a refitted fusion
>cruiser, you have 4 ph-2's, 2 ph 1's and a pair of gattlings. Every third
>phaser hit destroys a "good" phaser, but the phaser 1's satisfy this
>condition.
Unified hull doesn't prevent weapon hits. If you can approach at ludicrous
speed, then you can drop your load on him at range 3, and HET. Then you
can blast him again with the aft phasers (new volley) and drop a lot of
drones on him (we hope you knocked out some phasers, and it empties his
capacitor for him anyway, and then he can't shoot at you) and a T-Bomb or
two (third volley, or else he can turn away. Roll it out the hatch or beam
it out in front and run over it before it activates - dropping a back
shield would be a bad move. If he has HBs you'll have to roll it out the
hatch.) He either abandons the pursuit (so you can turn round and face
him) or chews on that lot, at which point you could probably _let_ him
overrun you. Remember, a Hydran who phasers you can't stop Type-IVs.
Armoured drones still work well.
> The hellbore ships seem to be at a disadvantage, paying 3 points/turn
>to arm the things, but they have even more power than the Klingons do!
>They now take some of the best-built ships in the game and casually
>add the most powerful fighters in the game.
Hellbore ships have a lot of power, sure. Overloads still become
difficult to use, at six power apiece. HB ships have few fighters. Also
IMHO the F-111 is the best fighter in the game (new in Captain's edition) -
the best DF fighter is the A-10. Head in at high speed, swat the enemy
with photons at range 4, outside of point defense, drop a lot of drones,
HET, leave. A boosted A-10 is as hard to kill as an unboosted early war
fighter, and it does speed 30, and it need never be engaged by ADDs,
ph-2, pg-G, fusions...
> Lyrans have these great anti-hellbore ESGs, so I thought. Turns out
>activating your ESGs will be the last thing you ever do in a medium-sized
>or larger fleet action due to the "automatic hit" rule.
Ah well. In Captain's Edition the shots are resolved one by one, and only
the shots fired with the ESG up auto-hit. The best thing the Hydran can
do is reduce the ESG to 1 point and fire an OL HB at it. In effect the
ESG lets you give the Hydran a chance to expend weapons on an immaterial
expendable force ball rather than on your slow-repairing shields and
ship. Indeed, you can protect your shields-down DN from Hellbore fire
with a screen of CW ESGs, and the DN's ruptors can keep pounding the
enemy.
> I always assumed these were more-or-less accidents. Center warp and
>hull just turned out to be more effective, etc... and hoped they were maybe
>fixed in the lastest edition.
No. By the time the Hydrans were written these facts were well-known: the
Hydrans deliberately have been given very tough ships, as befits a race
who have to close to point-blank range on everyone and anyone.
>Making crippled Stingers drop the ph-G is
>a step in the right direction.
--
David Damerell, GCV Sauricon. Green Card flames to: lca...@win.net
djs...@cus.cam.ac.uk RL: Trinity College, Cambridge. |___|
WOODHAL2.WAD on infant2 at last. Watch this space for METLMAZE.WAD. | | |
Thomas O'Neill
--
Tom O'Neill | T...@csvax1.ucc.ie
-------------------------------------------------
Fact is stranger than fictionIn article <3702ug$1...@news.acns.nwu.edu>, ja...@nwu.edu (James Klock) writes:
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From: ja...@nwu.edu (James Klock)
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
Subject: Re: SFB Hydran Analysis (was Re: Lyran Folly)
Date: 6 Oct 1994 05:45:52 GMT
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> In article <reynolds....@stimpy.cs.iastate.edu>, reyn...@cs.iastate.edu (Owen
>Reynolds)
>says:
>>For a refitted fusion
>>cruiser, you have 4 ph-2's, 2 ph 1's and a pair of gattlings. Every third
>>phaser hit destroys a "good" phaser, but the phaser 1's satisfy this
>>condition.
>Wrong. The wording under the Captain's Edition rules is that every
>third hit destroys a "best possible" phaser, which means a ph-G.
An understandable but incorrect assumption. In the phaser status table
for purposes of which is a better weapon, Ph-1 is "better" than Ph-G.
Note that this is true until very close ranges(2-). I think that this
is deliberate, so that a Hydran ship has a chance of keeping its gatlings
on an overrun. Given their limited range, if they were easy to blow off,
they would be far less useful.
Tom
Tom O'Neill | T...@csvax1.ucc.ie
-------------------------------------------------
Fact is stranger than fiction
James Klock
Reynolds)
says:
>For a refitted fusion
>cruiser, you have 4 ph-2's, 2 ph 1's and a pair of gattlings. Every third
>phaser hit destroys a "good" phaser, but the phaser 1's satisfy this
>condition.
Wrong. The wording under the Captain's Edition rules is that every
third hit destroys a "best possible" phaser, which means a ph-G.
> Lyrans have these great anti-hellbore ESGs, so I thought. Turns out
>activating your ESGs will be the last thing you ever do in a medium-sized
>or larger fleet action due to the "automatic hit" rule.
Well, you're half right. An inexperienced Lyran commander will refrain from
raising ESGs against hellbore-armed Hydrans. An experienced one will use
them to control where the Hydran fire is concentrated (an ESG field between
a hellbore and the intended target WILL draw the hit, meaning that the
Hydran player no longer gets to choose his targets at all, but MUST hit
the ship with the active ESG. Not that this is an easy advantage to
capitalize on, but it's been my experience that Lyran commanders tend to
be either get good at some strange manuevering or move on to another
race but quick...)
> I always assumed these were more-or-less accidents. Center warp and
>hull just turned out to be more effective, etc... and hoped they were maybe
>fixed in the lastest edition. Making crippled Stingers drop the ph-G is
>a step in the right direction.
So is killing ph-G's on every third phaser hit...
Min Chen
(wa.. by D.J.S. Dame...@cus.cam.
> ruptors/ plasma shotguns/ drone swarms (ph-2 Swordfish set for range 2
> will really f**k off Stinger swarms - set for range 1 if they have no
> drone ID capability with them - so will Type-IVs with 1.5 spaces internal
> armour - this will kill a boosted Stinger, and it takes most of a gatling
> to kill it, and it can take a T-Bomb and survive :-) Try and draw out the
> chaff using rubbish drones first, then drop the shatter-packs) - you may
> not be killing a lot of them, but what can they do to you? Then once
> you've killed most of the squadron, pull a face in Energy Allocation and
> slow down to speed 22. This lets them close to range 3 - the Hydran will
> be so relieved at closing with you we hope he won't notice how few
> fighters he has left - then your ADDs can chew them up merrily, as you
> just freed up enough power for ECCM (you do have a scout, don't you?)
>
equal BPV fight, unless you're on a floating map (in which case the
Hydrans are screwed) the Hydran fighters will probably overrun you at
some point unless you've wasted all your armaments on them. In my
experience drones just don't cut it very well against stingers. So, the
effective range of starfishes are 3 hexes, you can counter that by
spreading out your fighters just slightly. The swordfishes can be dealt
with by mass gatling, since gats don't cost anything on a stinger, you'd
be best off firing them every turn, otherwise you'd be wasting a
potential damage inducer. It is true that outside range 3, Ph-3 are
lousy damage producers, but take into account the laws of probability,
nine Hydran stingers off of a Ranger (or was that seven) has 36 phaser-3
shots (then it'd be 28 shots), at range 15 they fire, the odds say
(assuming no EW advantage to either side) that something will hit you.
Now for drones, that means the guys in the back fires off their shots
against incoming drones, and unless you have scatterpack set for random
targeting, it's gonna be real hard hitting fighters with drones (of any
type). My limited experience with stingers was that in disruptor ships,
you start off by taking out the EW fighter (a guesture to keep the Hyds
honest on the EW front) was disruptors, then using the superior firing
arcs (if you're Klingons on D5s) to blow away as many fighters outside
of range 3 as possible, simply you saber dance inside range 8 with
fighters, making sure that the Hyd ship is further out then overload
range. On a closed map, it's almost a garuntee that you'll be able to
whittle away about half of the Hyd fighters before you become decisively
engaged. You flip drones and SPs at the Hyd ships... (yeah, they won't
hit jack shit with all those fighters around, but that keeps the Ph-G
off of you and on the drones, he can't chance the possiblity of
starfishes) I would suppose that on average, you can take down a
fighter to cripple status with 2 disruptors and two ph-1s inside range
8, and they're not all that fast anyways, so saberdance is workable.
Now if they strap on boosters, well, then we can say that 1 disruptor
and 1 ph-1 ought to cripple or kill that fighter. (You can't use OLs
because you don't want the hyd ship to catch you). Overall, if 70% of
the fighters are dead, you'd have about an even match with the Hydran
ship opposing you, otherwise, it's over. Main problem is that the smart
Hyds with probably EM all the way up till range 3, making your life hard
as hell. But then, if they EM, starfishes and swordfishes (remember
though, you're limited to 10% on those limited drone availability) has a
much better chance of taking them down. But, without a doubt, D5s
should be the premier fighter killers, just a standard D5k, not the D5F,
or anything else. Technically, the C7 would be good too with more
phasers, but who'd waste a C7 against fighters.
Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.board: 6-Oct-94 Re: SFB Hydran Analysis
(wa.. by D.J.S. Dame...@cus.cam.
>
> Unified hull doesn't prevent weapon hits. If you can approach at ludicrous
> speed, then you can drop your load on him at range 3, and HET. Then you
> can blast him again with the aft phasers (new volley) and drop a lot of
> drones on him (we hope you knocked out some phasers, and it empties his
> capacitor for him anyway, and then he can't shoot at you) and a T-Bomb or
> two (third volley, or else he can turn away. Roll it out the hatch or beam
> it out in front and run over it before it activates - dropping a back
> shield would be a bad move. If he has HBs you'll have to roll it out the
> hatch.) He either abandons the pursuit (so you can turn round and face
> him) or chews on that lot, at which point you could probably _let_ him
> overrun you. Remember, a Hydran who phasers you can't stop Type-IVs.
> Armoured drones still work well.
Hmmm, interesting, but that assumes the Hydrans lost all his fighters,
and the maneuvering is rather hard to pull off. For myself at least, I
believe that the Hydran ships are more dangerous than the fighters,
because of the unified hull and sometimes the center warps, the trick is
definitely multiple volleys which increases the odds of stripping off
weapons. But the smart Hyds will turn off as soon as you breach a
shield, to prevent the Mizia effect. I personally feel that for most of
the hellbore ships, killing shield #1 is crucial to winning the game.
(especially against a Dragoon) On a even fight between a D7K and a
Dragoon with three fighters, first thing would be to kick out an SP
targeted on the D7, then get to range 15, and alpha strike on the #1
shield with your better turn mode, (then possibly EM to avoid a counter
attack) you can turn off before he reach range 8. Second turn, use
disruptors to take down his fighters (if he launches them) or otherwise,
hit his #1 again, then kick out a few more drones, the key is that he
has to hold his silly HBs in hopes of reaching OL, (if he shots them,
then you run toward him and hurt him really bad immediately, because if
you don't he'll saberdance against you with the HBs, and before long,
the Klingons in a shallow grave) now he's going fairly slow, probably
dumping ECM to avoid disruptors. This I think is classic saberdance
technique. Keep it up on a non floating map for about four turns, and
this Hydran will be going home or going six feet under. (note, unlike
fleet action, one on one against a disruptor ship means that the HB ship
is at a slight disadvantage) In fleet action, everybody knows that it's
a mass salvo due at probably either range 15 or 22. Overall though, the
Klingons should win even against determined odds. The only Hydran I
would truly be scared off in a one on one is a Ranger with fighters,
that one would go top speed (possibly EM) straight at you, with boosters
on fighters, not giving a damn about what you do to his number one
shield or his fighters, cause on a closed map, he'll reach you in two
turns (three tops) with half his fighters, and at least three fusion
beams, then the Klingon can kiss his life good bye. An Alpha strike by
a fusion ship at range one will be devastating, throw in the one or two
surviving fighters, it would be fatal. The only logical option I see
would be a plasma boat, but then he has Ph-G on fighters and ship, and
guess what there are no plasma boats (save the rare Orion, and the dumb
ISC) in that part of the galaxy.
Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.board: 6-Oct-94 Re: SFB Hydran Analysis
(wa.. by D.J.S. Dame...@cus.cam.
> IMHO the F-111 is the best fighter in the game (new in Captain's edition) -
> the best DF fighter is the A-10. Head in at high speed, swat the enemy
> with photons at range 4, outside of point defense, drop a lot of drones,
> HET, leave. A boosted A-10 is as hard to kill as an unboosted early war
> fighter, and it does speed 30, and it need never be engaged by ADDs,
> ph-2, pg-G, fusions...
>
I agree, F-111s are a bitch to fight, good thing the Feds have so few of
them huh? But overall, they're still fighters, and we all know that
fighters were made to die, that's why they call them attrition units.
My personally favorite is of course the F-14Ds (even though I never used
them) they are the best fighter all around period.
Min
DAVID D. HILLS
>From: reyn...@cs.iastate.edu (Owen Reynolds)
>Subject: Re: SFB Hydran Analysis (was Re: Lyran Folly)
> Some of my many gripes: Stingers are far too powerful and too cheap.
>Compared to Klingon fighters they are faster, tougher and dish out much
>more damage, while costing 2-3 points more. A winning tactic in many
>scenarios is merely "Fly at speed 29 with a whole lot of 10 ECM Stingers."
Unfortunately, if you do this, your ship can't arm weapons and
expect to even come close to keeping up with your fighters. Also, with Warp
Booster Packs, you fighters will take double damage if they get hit. With
ten ECM, this may not seem like an option, but you might as well take the
chance outside of range 3, if you let the fighters get any closer, you're
dead, very dead. 3-6 fusions on one shield, at range <3 is going to wipe
out a shield.
> Their ships mostly have unified hull, and lots of it, and center warp
>on the destroyers. They are really, really good at overruns because of
>the way internals have such a small effect on them. For a refitted fusion
>cruiser, you have 4 ph-2's, 2 ph 1's and a pair of gattlings. Every third
>phaser hit destroys a "good" phaser, but the phaser 1's satisfy this
>condition.
Again you have a power related speed problem. Overruns are
dangerous especially against a disrupter using race. The best way for
Hellbore armed ships to fight is used to use the disruptor tactic. SNIPE!
At range 9-15, you hit pretty well and can do more damage if you hit with 1
than if they hit with 3 (I think, 2 for sure). If you have four hellbores,
splir 'em up, fire 2 one turn, 2 the next. It won't necessarily work after
your opponent wises up, but talk about a surprised Lyran on day when we did
a typical oblique, I fired two, he turned towards me, I turned towards him
and hit with OLed HB's, scared the shit out of him, having his rear (I
think) shield suddenly go down.
> The hellbore ships seem to be at a disadvantage, paying 3 points/turn
>to arm the things, but they have even more power than the Klingons do!
>They now take some of the best-built ships in the game and casually
>add the most powerful fighters in the game.
> Hellbores are less-than-great against a ship with several shields at
>the same strength -- but wait! -- you can fire hellbores as 'direct' fire
>and resolve damage at different times during the same fire segment. This
>means you can shoot a pair at the facing shield, a phaser 1 at the facing
>shield, and then the other pair as regular hellbores (which are now
>assured of doing the most damage to the facing shield.)
Why waste your power with doing this, you might as well fire
phasers, no matter the shift. All you need is a few points of damage
(assuming reinforcement, otherwise, only one), then fire hellboes on your
second option. Same effect, less power wasted. Always save your Ph-3's
though, they have really nice kill power at fusion range. Dave
<END>
Whip me, beat me, but don't tell my mother
SCUM
Mark Schultz
>>Owen Reynolds <reyn...@cs.iastate.edu> wrote:
>>Umm, each HB is resolved individually, and they only hit automatically if
>>the ESG field still has points left. This seldom results in more than two
>>hits for each activated ESG, and allows you to tempt him to fire HB's before
>>he can take advantage of any damage that they might inflict, or distract him
>>from more worthwhile targets.
>
>In a fleet/squadron battle, it also allows the Lyran to choose the target.
>One ship can provide cover for a dozen. Keep a bunch of PF inside the ESG and
>the Hydran may not want to fire the HBs at all for fear of disturbibg the Hive.
An effective way of dealing with this type of Lyran nonsense is to close
within 8 or so with fighters and/or fusion ships near the end of the turn and
clobber the ship with the ESGs up after impulse 28. Don't blow it up though.
Now the fleet will be going faster than their ESG protection, providing a
unique tactical quandry for the Lyran.
Mark Schultz [msch...@watson.ibm.com] or [m...@henry.ece.cmu.edu]
Guitar, Sound Engineering, Ultimate, SFB, Corvettes, Magnetics, and The Lord
Jesus Christ. NOT in that order. This .SIG subject to change at any time.
Mark Schultz
> In article <reynolds....@stimpy.cs.iastate.edu>, reyn...@cs.iastate.edu (Owen
>Reynolds)
>says:
>>For a refitted fusion
>>cruiser, you have 4 ph-2's, 2 ph 1's and a pair of gattlings. Every third
>>phaser hit destroys a "good" phaser, but the phaser 1's satisfy this
>>condition.
>Wrong. The wording under the Captain's Edition rules is that every
>third hit destroys a "best possible" phaser, which means a ph-G.
Bzzzt. Thank you for playing. We have some nice parting gifts.
"Best phaser" is defined within the rules. P-1's are defined as a better
phaser despite anyone's actual opinion on the matter. A rules change for the
tournament Orion was proposed to deal with just this problem, but it is NOT an
official normal play rule.
Max_Natzet
satisfy this condition.
player 2) Wrong. The wording under the Captain's Edition rules is that every
third hit destroys a "best possible" phaser, which means a ph-G.
player 3) Sorry, but you're the one who is wrong. "Best possible phaser"
doesn't mean "the phaser which YOU think is the best phaser;" it refers to
the phaser which is "best" according to the annex which lists weapon damage
priority specifically for this purpose. For phasers, that list is ph-4,
ph-1, ph-G, ph-2, ph-3.
AHHH!
I cant't find the rule that specifies every third hit is a good phaser,
although I've always played that way. Where is it? Does this rule include any
weapon hits - we've always played no.
Which annex lists weapon damage priority, I don't have that either? I do have:
Annex #9 - Cost of Repair - Phas G - 6 pts
- Phas I - 5 pts
Annex #8B - Orion Weapon Costs - Phas G - 2 pts
- Phas I - 0 pts
Annex #6A - Ship Modification List - Phas G - 3 pts
- Phas I - 2 pts
From this I would infer that the Phas-G is superior to the Phas-I. But, the
definition of Phas-I in section E-2 of the book says that the Phas-I is the
"heaviest phaser carried by a starship".
As an aside, someone mentioned that they thought the Phas-I was a superior
weapon to the Phas-G, pointing out the long range damage output potential. I
have two responses:
1) Phasers are generally not used at long range in quantity, it costs too
much to recharge them all.
2) When you firgure the damage per unit energy, the Phas-G is awesome.
We've generally played by letting the attacker choose the "best phaser type"
on every third
John Hammer
> In article <reynolds....@stimpy.cs.iastate.edu>, reyn...@cs.iastate.edu (Owen
>Reynolds)
>says:
>>For a refitted fusion
>>cruiser, you have 4 ph-2's, 2 ph 1's and a pair of gattlings. Every third
>>phaser hit destroys a "good" phaser, but the phaser 1's satisfy this
>>condition.
>Wrong. The wording under the Captain's Edition rules is that every
>third hit destroys a "best possible" phaser, which means a ph-G.
Sorry, but you're the one who is wrong. "Best possible phaser" doesn't mean
"the phaser which YOU think is the best phaser;" it refers to the phaser which
is "best" according to the annex which lists weapon damage priority
specifically for this purpose. For phasers, that list is ph-4, ph-1, ph-G,
ph-2, ph-3.
>> I always assumed these were more-or-less accidents. Center warp and
>>hull just turned out to be more effective, etc... and hoped they were maybe
>>fixed in the lastest edition. Making crippled Stingers drop the ph-G is
>>a step in the right direction.
>So is killing ph-G's on every third phaser hit...
Except that simply isn't the way it works.
JMH
Tony Zbaraschuk
Starfish drones (added in the Captain's edition). Drones that fire 3 ADD
rounds (at separate targets). The perfect anti-Stinger weapon.
Tony Z
--
"I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its
swiftness. I love that which they defend, the city of the Men of Numenor."
--- Faramir, _The Two Towers_
ja...@nwu.edu
First, apologies for my crass error. I should know better by now to rely upon my
common sense or gut instinct when lawing down the rules for public viewing -- When
in Doubt, Look it Up.
A few days back, I mistakenly stated that a Ph-G is better than a Ph-1. That was wrong,
under D4.3221 . Since that time, it would seem that EVERYONE who reads this thread
has stopped to correct my error, with varying degrees of contempt.
In short, everything after the second correction at latest is a waste of bandwidth,
okay? Next time I screw up, could you all please read ahead in the thread to see if
somebody else has already corrected it?
Thanks--
James Klock
Tim Kelley
reyn...@cs.iastate.edu (Owen Reynolds) wrote:
OR> I've got the second-to-last version of the rules -- the first one
OR>where they collected all the stuff from various erratas and put it in
OR>one place. Among people I know, there was unamimous agreement the Hydrans
OR>were underrated on BPVs and had ships that were individually too
OR>powerful.
OR> As a fleet, I think they're fine, since the Klingons and Lyrans have
OR>a huge numerical advantage. A popular subject for jokes, though, was
OR>how you were supposed to be able to play Federation and Empire by fighting
OR>out any battles using SFB rules. You could take any "equal" F&E match-up
OR>involving Hydrans and the SFB fight would be lop-sided in favor of the
OR>Hydrans.
OR> Some of my many gripes: Stingers are far too powerful and too cheap.
OR>Compared to Klingon fighters they are faster, tougher and dish out much
OR>more damage, while costing 2-3 points more. A winning tactic in many
They're supposed to be better! Stingers aren't cheap either - 11 BPV
with packs. Klingon fighters were never meant to be their equal.
Considering that the fusion beam is a nearly worthless weapon, it's only
worth using if there are a lot of them - like 50, from 10 hexes.
Even then, a small ECM shift will (easy to force on a fighter group)
seriously hurt their damage rolls.
OR>scenarios is merely "Fly at speed 29 with a whole lot of 10 ECM Stingers."
OR> Their ships mostly have unified hull, and lots of it, and center warp
OR>on the destroyers. They are really, really good at overruns because of
OR>the way internals have such a small effect on them. For a refitted fusion
OR>cruiser, you have 4 ph-2's, 2 ph 1's and a pair of gattlings. Every third
OR>phaser hit destroys a "good" phaser, but the phaser 1's satisfy this
OR>condition.
Consider that a fusion ship MUST overrun to win. An enemy has to *let*
you do this. It is very easy to avoid an overrun by keeping your speed
up and staying away. Disruptors are very effective for killing
stingers. You just have to have some patience.
OR> I always assumed these were more-or-less accidents. Center warp and
OR>hull just turned out to be more effective, etc... and hoped they were maybe
OR>fixed in the lastest edition. Making crippled Stingers drop the ph-G is
OR>a step in the right direction.
No, they weren't accidents. Hydrans have all those protected systems
because it's necessary. They have to overrun, and overrunning is just
plain dangerous. They have built in limitations as well.
The hellbore is the only weapon available to them with any decent range.
It's slower arming cycle more than makes up for the difference btween
disruptors, IMO.
The Captain's Edition, BTW, is much better than previous versions.
Stingers have been reduced in their effectiveness by a number of
factors, notably Starfish drones, which shoot ADD rounds at fighters
from 3 hexes out. Very deadly.
Also consider that the more the fighters (in the case of DF fighters)
are spread out the less effective they are, and if you haven't noticed,
it's not easy to get a stack of fighters within point blank range of a
ship; unless you play without the hidden mine from the shuttle bay rule.
---
. QMPro 1.0 23-4733 . tim.k...@horizons.jaxx.com
John Hammer
SFB is a complex game, and nobody is right all the time. Don't let your little
error bother you. I'm sure that no one thinks any the less of you for it.
JMH
Min Chen
(wa.. by D.J.S. Dame...@cus.cam.
> I was assuming at least a fairly big map. Dropping a lot of T-Bombs -
> some dummies - may well give you breathing time to make a turn and force
> the Stingers to chase you back down the map.
Hmmm, I've tried wih D5s to do a barrier of mines before, unless the
Stingers are in close, dropping mines and transporting them out just
doesn't do much good. And if Stingers are in close, you'd better think
about crippling them with phasers instead. What I've found about mines
is the following. On a closed map, they can form a protective barrier
for a little while. But the Hydran will simply charge right at you,
push one fighter out in front as a suicide measure to take out your
mine, the rest of the fighters go through the gap. Another alternative
is for the ship to precede the fighters (risking damage to the ship) pop
a shuttle, and have it sweep up the mine. On a bigger map, T-bombs
works only by forcing the hydrans to alter directions, giving you
maneuvering room, but will rarely kill anything. Remember too, 4
T-bombs, and 4 dummies for a regular cruiser type. Even if you have a
D5 squadron of three cruisers, you only have a total of 24 of these
things, and half of them are fakes. dropping T-bombs out of the hatch
is dangerous, cause if you want a proper mine field, you'd have to lay
it, opening up your shield is just another way of letting mass Ph-G from
fighters inside range 15 to hurt you.
Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.board: 9-Oct-94 Re: SFB Hydran Analysis
(wa.. by D.J.S. Dame...@cus.cam.
> But the Stingers will only blow them up at range _4_ (ph-2 Swordfish
> should be set to fire at range 3 - effective for ph-2 (will cripple a
> packed Stinger)) if they know what they are. If the Hydrans don't have a
> lot of labs along, they'll be doing drone defense at range 1-2-3. (at
> high closure rate, you fire at range 3 and polish off at range 1. The
> Type-IV with 1.5 space armour may well take both the shots, and then a
> Stinger is up the proverbial creek.) The Swordfish reaches range 3 and
> fires whether or not the Stingers kill it with phasers. Blat.
Hmmm, what you say about swordfishes are true, especially armored ones,
but the trick is that you'd only be able to do this twice, at the cost
of almost all your drone points, and what's worse, you have to designate
your target unless you plan on random targeting. If you designate, and
the hyd alters his fighter formation, he might take out your swordfish
before it fires. It's also possible that the hyd ship may be with the
formation, and let's face it, Hyds aren't short on phasers, they'll kill
that drone. At range 5 say, ph-1 (only a few) and about 4 ph-G will
garuntee a dead armored drone. (assuming if the ship is with the
formation.
> This is true. However boosted fighters are easy kills, and unboosted
> fighters can be left behind. A saber dance might dispatch a few fighters.
Again, you forget the small target modifier, which is even worse if
supported by either EM by the fighters or possibly if the carrier/ship
loans EW to the fighters. Remember, EW lending rule applies differently
for the Hydran hybrids. And boosted fighters has the option of when
they turn on and off their packs (only once though, I think).
The uniformed hull of the ships prevents damage, multiple volleys will
offset the effect, this however only applies to hellbore ships, which
would rather saberdance than try to close with a disruptor ship (not
enough power to do it right, can't escape afterwards) Like I said
before, certain Hyds (i.e. the Dragoon, depend a lot on their #1 for an
alpha strike) take that shield out, and the hydran becomes really
limited. Rangers can overrun by the following tactics, they put
everything into ECM and EM for fighters and ships, don't load fusions,
and just plain charge at you at best speed, which should be about 25 (I
don't have the SSDs with me) or so. Just enough to catch a disruptor
ship that's saberdancing with his disruptors, and possibly even phasers.
He won't turn off, he'll accept the damage, use phasers to hose the
drones, he has lots of them too. (counting fighters of course) Then
come inside range 2, and OL the next turn, and that's all she wrote. Or
if they're nasty, they were readying tractors too, which prevent shuttle
launches, and keep you around for the little stingers. But hopefully,
the Klingon would've picked off a few of the stingers with ADDs. In my
opinion, overrun is viable for fusion ships (try the Lord Marshall, or
the Lord Admiral I think, one of those has six fusions) but a bad idea
for hellbore ships which won't really happen, because anyone who let's a
hellbore ship inside OL range without having punched holes in his ship
is dead... eventually.
Now, I think WYN ships are excellent with Hellbores, the AUX BC can
mount them, fly at high speed and shoot, on a floating map, the WYN will
win, even against an opposing hydran HB ship of slightly greater BPV
like the Lord Bishop, all it does is keep up speed, and fire hellbores.
Ideal options mounts would be 2 HB, and 2 disruptors, the drones can
take care of the fighters, they have enough points for a few
swordfish/starfish against the fighters from an HB ship. Disruptors
makes the opening, and then hellbores do the rest, and you even have
four drone racks to shield your hellbores from damage, and power to burn
what more could one ask for. (except for free pizza and beer).
Min
Taki Kogoma
<377jqu$4...@cmcl2.nyu.edu> in rec.games.board:>>Okay, folks--
>>
>>First, apologies for my crass error. [...]
>
>SFB is a complex game, and nobody is right all the time. Don't let your little
>error bother you. I'm sure that no one thinks any the less of you for it.
Will everybody who's been burned by forgetting an SFB rule please
raise his/her hand?
Thank you; you can stop now; you're blocking the projector.
--
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk | "I'll get a life when someone
(Known to some as Taki Kogoma) | demonstrates that it would be
qu...@unm.edu | superior to what I have now."
Veteran of the '91 sf-lovers re-org. | -- Gym Quirk
D.J.S. Damerell
Min Chen <mc...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.board: 6-Oct-94 Re: SFB Hydran Analysis
>(wa.. by D.J.S. Dame...@cus.cam.
>equal BPV fight, unless you're on a floating map (in which case the
>Hydrans are screwed) the Hydran fighters will probably overrun you at
>some point unless you've wasted all your armaments on them.
I was assuming at least a fairly big map. Dropping a lot of T-Bombs -
some dummies - may well give you breathing time to make a turn and force
the Stingers to chase you back down the map.
>In my
>experience drones just don't cut it very well against stingers. So, the
>effective range of starfishes are 3 hexes, you can counter that by
>spreading out your fighters just slightly.
I don't advocate starfish much, but target 'em on the lead fighter.
>The swordfishes can be dealt
>with by mass gatling, since gats don't cost anything on a stinger, you'd
>be best off firing them every turn, otherwise you'd be wasting a
>potential damage inducer.
But the Stingers will only blow them up at range _4_ (ph-2 Swordfish
should be set to fire at range 3 - effective for ph-2 (will cripple a
packed Stinger)) if they know what they are. If the Hydrans don't have a
lot of labs along, they'll be doing drone defense at range 1-2-3. (at
high closure rate, you fire at range 3 and polish off at range 1. The
Type-IV with 1.5 space armour may well take both the shots, and then a
Stinger is up the proverbial creek.) The Swordfish reaches range 3 and
fires whether or not the Stingers kill it with phasers. Blat.
[Excellent saber dance description deleted, but I think you underestimate
the sneaky things drones are good for.]
>Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.board: 6-Oct-94 Re: SFB Hydran Analysis
>(wa.. by D.J.S. Dame...@cus.cam.
>>
>> Unified hull doesn't prevent weapon hits. If you can approach at ludicrous
>> speed, then you can drop your load on him at range 3, and HET. Then you
>> can blast him again with the aft phasers (new volley) and drop a lot of
>> drones on him (we hope you knocked out some phasers, and it empties his
>> capacitor for him anyway, and then he can't shoot at you) and a T-Bomb or
>> two (third volley, or else he can turn away. Roll it out the hatch or beam
>> it out in front and run over it before it activates - dropping a back
>> shield would be a bad move. If he has HBs you'll have to roll it out the
>> hatch.) He either abandons the pursuit (so you can turn round and face
>> him) or chews on that lot, at which point you could probably _let_ him
>> overrun you. Remember, a Hydran who phasers you can't stop Type-IVs.
>> Armoured drones still work well.
>
>Hmmm, interesting, but that assumes the Hydrans lost all his fighters,
>and the maneuvering is rather hard to pull off.
This is true. However boosted fighters are easy kills, and unboosted
fighters can be left behind. A saber dance might dispatch a few fighters.
>For myself at least, I
>believe that the Hydran ships are more dangerous than the fighters,
>because of the unified hull and sometimes the center warps, the trick is
>definitely multiple volleys which increases the odds of stripping off
>weapons. But the smart Hyds will turn off as soon as you breach a
>shield, to prevent the Mizia effect.
Turn off = no overrun.
--
David Damerell, GCV Sauricon. Green Card flames to: lca...@win.net. _=*
|___| djs...@cus.cam.ac.uk RL: Trinity College, Cambridge. /|
| | | WOODHAL2.WAD on infant2 at last. Watch this space for METLMAZE.WAD. / |
Koen van der Pasch
In a message of <Fri 7 Oct 94 13:00> to All (2:283/323@fidonet), you
wrote:
TZ> ^References: <36t9ak$3...@news.acns.nwu.edu>
TZ> <reynolds....@stimpy.cs.iastate.edu>
<370lea$r...@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>
TZ> From: to...@eskimo.com (Tony Zbaraschuk)
TZ> Newsgroups: rec.games.board
TZ> Subject: SFB: Hydran Stinger countermeasures
TZ> Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
TZ> Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 13:00:25 GMT
TZ> Well, one thing hasn't been mentioned so far.
TZ> Starfish drones (added in the Captain's edition). Drones that fire 3
ADD
TZ> rounds (at separate targets). The perfect anti-Stinger weapon.
Sory Tony, but Starfish had been metioned already. The only thing to do
against starfish is to spread your stings REEL thin, and kill any drone on
sight. Make your stings move in an eratical pattern (no, don't use erratic
maneuvering, you won't hit the drones anymore). Make the front sting move
to the back of the pack, and let the next one take the point. That way, if
he aims his starfish for your first sting, you can move him to the back of
the pack, and let the front ones take out the drone before it can release.
If you move your stings like this and the drone gets to release through
some rare feat ( or plain stupid luck) it will have less chance at hitting
with the other two ADD's.
TZ> Tony Z
TZ> --
TZ> "I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for
its
TZ> swiftness. I love that which they defend, the city of the Men of
TZ> Numenor."
TZ> --- Faramir, _The Two Towers_
Bye, Koen.
* Origin: InterStellar BBS.... We'll get there.... (2:283/323.43)
Koen van der Pasch
In a message of <Thu 6 Oct 94 23:40> to All (2:283/323@fidonet), you
wrote:
MN> ^References:
<36t9ak$3...@news.acns.nwu.edu>,<3702ug$1...@news.acns.nwu.edu>
MN> <371518$e...@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>
MN> From: Max_N...@ccmail.gsfc.nasa.gov (Max_Natzet)
MN> Newsgroups: rec.games.board
MN> Subject: SFB Phaser Quality (was: Lyran Folly)
MN> Organization: NASA Goddard Space Flight Center -- Greenbelt, Maryland
USA
MN> Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 09:40:20 +1000
MN> player 1) Every third phaser hit destroys a "good" phaser, but the
phaser
MN> 1's
MN> satisfy this condition.
MN> player 2) Wrong. The wording under the Captain's Edition rules is
that
MN> every
MN> third hit destroys a "best possible" phaser, which means a
ph-G.
MN> player 3) Sorry, but you're the one who is wrong. "Best possible
phaser"
MN> doesn't mean "the phaser which YOU think is the best phaser;"
it
MN> refers to
MN> the phaser which is "best" according to the annex which lists
MN> weapon damage
MN> priority specifically for this purpose. For phasers, that
list is
MN> ph-4,
MN> ph-1, ph-G, ph-2, ph-3.
MN> AHHH!
MN> I cant't find the rule that specifies every third hit is a good
phaser,
MN> although I've always played that way. Where is it? Does this rule
include
MN> any weapon hits - we've always played no.
Captains basic rulebook number D4.3221 : PHASERS : Each third phaser hit IN
A GIVEN VOLLEY must be applied to the best available type, .... See annex
#7E for priority.
This means, that the rule need only be used on a ' per volley' basis.
MN> Which annex lists weapon damage priority, I don't have that either? I
do
MN> have:
MN> Annex #9 - Cost of Repair - Phas G - 6 pts
MN> - Phas I - 5 pts
MN> Annex #8B - Orion Weapon Costs - Phas G - 2 pts
MN> - Phas I - 0
pts
MN> Annex #6A - Ship Modification List - Phas G - 3 pts
MN> - Phas I - 2
pts
MN> From this I would infer that the Phas-G is superior to the Phas-I.
But,
MN> the definition of Phas-I in section E-2 of the book says that the
Phas-I
MN> is the
MN> "heaviest phaser carried by a starship".
Annex #7E : Damage priority rule :
(D4.3221) PHASERS : Sensors, Ph-4, Ph-1, Ph-G, Ph-2, Ph-3.
MN> As an aside, someone mentioned that they thought the Phas-I was a
superior
MN> weapon to the Phas-G, pointing out the long range damage output
potential.
MN> I have two responses:
MN> 1) Phasers are generally not used at long range in quantity, it
costs
MN> too
MN> much to recharge them all.
MN> 2) When you firgure the damage per unit energy, the Phas-G is
awesome.
MN> We've generally played by letting the attacker choose the "best
phaser
MN> type" on every third
MN> Max Natzet, Mechanical Engineer
MN> NASA/Wallops Flight Facility
MN> E-Mail: Max_N...@CCMail.GSFC.NASA.GOV
I think the way you do it would be the best way. Just be careful that the
attacker doesn't 'conveniently' choose a phaser (2/3) that wasn't fired
yet, over a phaser (G/1) that wasn't.
Mark Schultz
>Well, one thing hasn't been mentioned so far.
>
>Starfish drones (added in the Captain's edition). Drones that fire 3 ADD
>rounds (at separate targets). The perfect anti-Stinger weapon.
>
They ought to be (perfect, that is) since that is exactly what they were
designed for. Fortunately there are deployment restrictions.
Unfortunately, there are no defenses against them as they incorporate the
(IMHO) wholly bogus immunity to EW/EM that the ADD itself enjoys. If they
are launched on ballistic courses they cannot be chaffed .
One reasonable tactic against them is to lead the engagement with a drone pack
with a single fighter. This typically detonates the Starfish, annihilating
the single fighter but leaving the squadron basically intact. Playing games
with detonation ranges to counter this is risky, as P-G's are quite capable of
taking out the post-chaff remains of a drone swarm at range 3. If the single
fighter does not take detonate the drones, it can take out several with its
weaponry utilized at point-blank range.
Min Chen
(was by Tim Kel...@horizons.jaxx
> The Hellbore ships can
> fight at a distance, though, and the side firing arcs that the older
> ships use (DG, LB) don't require putting the #1 to the enemy.
> so if you fire two HB each turn from the side,
> you'll statistically equal his damage output with 4 disruptors; except
> the HB's will always hit the weaker shield.
> There is only one situation where it's worth
> doing (overloading that is) - when you're right on top of your
opponent at the end of a turn.
> (0-2 hexes)
The question is one of maneuverability, the DG cannot outmaneuver a D7k,
and guess what, if I take out your #1, you're gonna be stuck trying to
turn your ship, the perferred tactic would be to shot the leftside HB
then turn around and fire the right side HB, over two turns, and repeat
the process, but the problem is it has a shit turn mode, and if it does
this, it is constantly depending on 2 HBs a turn, and if the Klingon
sees this, he closes, and kills you before you have time to react.
Remember, he can run a lot faster than you if you're loading your HBs.
(this assumes that he kills your fighter, which a Klingon would've done)
And you can forget about the Ph-G adding any specific advantages, cause
it'll be busy swatting down drones to be helping you. And let's face
it, the Dragoon has lousy phaser arrangements. HB are great weapons,
but you have to get in a weak shield first, are you willing to shot your
first two HB on direct with your phasers backing it up? If you do, then
what if the Klink tries to overrun, you're then up shit creek with 2 HBs
and running on empty the next turn. Sure, you'll have your Phasers, but
what's that against OL disruptors, and asides your Ph-G will just be a
bit too busy. So, if you try saberdancing, I overrun you, and since you
did that, you don't have OL HB when I reach 0-2 range the first time,
and guess what, by the time the second time comes around, your ship is a
wreck. You're also forgetting that pesky ECM drone that just screws up
your firing solution at long range. You have a problem powering up your
HB, maintaining speed, and keeping up the EW.
> First, a Hellbore ship most positively has an
> advantage on a fixed map. Any ship with hard hitting weapons does.
> It's a matter of waiting for the right moment to close in and wallop
> your opponent; not easy mind you, there's an art to it. A disruptor
> ship just can't match the alpha strike of a HB ship close in. I'd be
> willing to trade alpha strikes with a Klingon any day at point blank
> range. It's nearly impossible to keep up a good "saber dance" on a
> fixed map, unless your opponent lets you do it. If you think that the
> D7 would have an advantage on a fixed map vs. a 4-HB ship, why isn't
> there a tournament Lord Bishop? The game designers know fully well that
> a four-HB ship would be too powerful on a fixed map. Think about it.
>
So, we're on a fixed map, I thought you were going to saber dance, now
you wanna OL, good luck trying for OL range against a saberdancing D7,
with superior maneuverability, I can almost garuntee (oops sp) taking
down your #1 before you get into OL range, and asides, I'd never trade
alpha strikes with HB ships in OL range, it's a lose-lose situation no
matter what happens. Saberdance range is different. You proposed a
saberdance on a fixed map, that is crazy for a hyd who should be going
for overruns. Now if you're a Fed, I have no choice but to agree, those
damn things just bare down on you, you can't saberdance against them,
because they're always dead set on OLs. Drones don't help since he just
ADDs them, and worst of all he has a better phaser arrangement. On the
note about 4 HB ship, in TCs, you'll have to remember that all the TCs
has more power than you coventional ships (I think, don't play with TCs
much), compare your fed TC to a Fed CA.
> However, on a floating map, I would feel confident playing a D7k against
> this; it would take darn near forever though - the Ranger is
> nearly impotent on a floating map, but it's still a pain in the butt...
> As you say, though, it is a true horror on a fixed map w/ fighters.
Floating map, with Hyds against Klinks, the Klinks should prevail
against the Ranger and fighters, no prob, against HBs, it'll be tougher,
but Klinks should still win. If you don't OL, that means I smash your
#1, and I can be comfortable about going at a slower speed, allowing
reinforcements and ECM.
Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.board: 10-Oct-94 SFB Hydran Analysis
(was by Tim Kel...@horizons.jaxx
> BTW, has anyone ever "saber danced" a DG back at you when you were
> playing the Klingon? It works rather, rather well <g>
Hmmm, I'd have to say no, my analysis of D7K vs DG is based a lot on
Lyrans against HB ships, the difference is that I don't use my ESG
except in the final blow of an overrun, I do have better phasers. I
played Klingons against ships other than the DGs, those were a pain,
espeically the time I took a D7W against a WYN Aux BC with 3 HB and a
Ph-G.... that really hurt. I had to disengage at the end. However, I
did happen to try an LDR CW vs a DG with fighters... I won that one, and
it was a real pleasure too. I got lucky though, my opposition fired at
range 15, and because of ECM, he hit with only two HBs, and he missed
with all the phasers. (Lucky me I guess) I just followed up, and Ph-G
his ship to death... the ESG ram was satisfying too. Actually, I never
chanced a DG against a D7k now that I think about it, but the ships that
I used before gives me enough of an idea to play that game.
Finally, what do you think about Feds going against Hyds on a fixed map?
I always wanted to take a CB against a DG or a BCF against a Lord
Bishop. Guess the hyds might just have an edge in that one.
Min
Tim Kelley
Min Chen <mc...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
MC>shield, to prevent the Mizia effect. I personally feel that for most of
MC>the hellbore ships, killing shield #1 is crucial to winning the game.
Only on the ships that use a forward centerline attack, such as the
Ranger, which must get very close to you to hurt you. A Ranger is
crippled w/o its forward shield. (it can lose it in the process of
overrunning, of course, but not before) The Hellbore ships can
fight at a distance, though, and the side firing arcs that the older
ships use (DG, LB) don't require putting the #1 to the enemy.
MC>(especially against a Dragoon)
Why? The DG's Hellbores have L+R arcs, too. He can out "saber dance" a
D7 any day - a Disruptor averages about half the damage output of a
Hellbore at range 15 - so if you fire two HB each turn from the side,
you'll statistically equal his damage output with 4 disruptors; except
the HB's will always hit the weaker shield. The Dragoon definitely
doesn't *need* his #1 shield at all. He can attack effectively in both
the L + R arcs, which don't require that shield.
MC>On a even fight between a D7K and a Dragoon with three fighters,
A DG+ is a perfect match for a D7k without the fighters!
I would have no problem with a DG vs. D7, no fighters, any year.
MC>first thing would be to kick out an SP targeted on the DG, then get
MC>to range 15, and alpha strike on the #1 shield with your better turn
MC>mode, (then possibly EM to avoid a counter attack) you can turn off
MC>before he reach range 8.
The DG can attack from 15 hexes as well as the D7 can...
MC>Second turn, use disruptors to take down
MC>his fighters (if he launches them) or otherwise, hit his #1 again,
MC>then kick out a few more drones, the key is that he has to hold his
MC>silly HBs in hopes of reaching OL, (if he shots them, then you run
I play Hydrans frequently, and I can't remember the last time I
overloaded my hellbores. There is only one situation where it's worth
doing - when you're right on top of your opponent at the end of a turn.
(0-2 hexes) Otherwise, missing would cause a great penalty (death) due
to the slow speed at which you would be moving. PF's are a different
matter, though...
MC>toward him and hurt him really bad immediately, because if you don't
MC>he'll saberdance against you with the HBs, and before long, the
MC>Klingons in a shallow grave) now he's going fairly slow, probably
MC>dumping ECM to avoid disruptors. This I think is classic saberdance
MC>technique. Keep it up on a non floating map for about four turns, and
MC>this Hydran will be going home or going six feet under. (note, unlike
MC>fleet action, one on one against a disruptor ship means that the HB ship
MC>is at a slight disadvantage)
I really must disagree. First, a Hellbore ship most positively has an
advantage on a fixed map. Any ship with hard hitting weapons does.
It's a matter of waiting for the right moment to close in and wallop
your opponent; not easy mind you, there's an art to it. A disruptor
ship just can't match the alpha strike of a HB ship close in. I'd be
willing to trade alpha strikes with a Klingon any day at point blank
range. It's nearly impossible to keep up a good "saber dance" on a
fixed map, unless your opponent lets you do it. If you think that the
D7 would have an advantage on a fixed map vs. a 4-HB ship, why isn't
there a tournament Lord Bishop? The game designers know fully well that
a four-HB ship would be too powerful on a fixed map. Think about it.
MC>In fleet action, everybody knows that it's
MC>a mass salvo due at probably either range 15 or 22. Overall though, the
MC>Klingons should win even against determined odds. The only Hydran I
MC>would truly be scared off in a one on one is a Ranger with fighters,
I guess you would, that's around 211 BPV! Hardly one on one!
However, on a floating map, I would feel confident playing a D7k against
this; it would take darn near forever though - the Ranger is
nearly impotent on a floating map, but it's still a pain in the butt...
As you say, though, it is a true horror on a fixed map w/ fighters.
I almost never play on fixed maps, though; only in tournament matches.
If we do decide to use a fixed map, we usually tape three maps together
(such as in a base defense). One map is a very small space, even for a
duel. In a fleet action, it's ludicrous to use a fixed map. The fixed
map is only a convention to shorten the time of your games.
Really, I never have had a problem playing Hydrans/Klingons. I
certainly don't feel the Klingons have a tangible tactical advantage
under normal circumstances.
BTW, has anyone ever "saber danced" a DG back at you when you were
playing the Klingon? It works rather, rather well <g>
---
Max_Natzet
>Subject: Re: SFB Hydran Analysis (was Re: Lyran Folly)
>Date: 9 Oct 1994 02:17:02 GMT
>JMH
My group stopped playing for a few years, I can't get over the number of rules
changes since then.
Max
D.J.S. Damerell
Min Chen <mc...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.board: 9-Oct-94 Re: SFB Hydran Analysis
>(wa.. by D.J.S. Dame...@cus.cam.
>> I was assuming at least a fairly big map. Dropping a lot of T-Bombs -
>> some dummies - may well give you breathing time to make a turn and force
>> the Stingers to chase you back down the map.
>
>Hmmm, I've tried wih D5s to do a barrier of mines before, unless the
>Stingers are in close, dropping mines and transporting them out just
>doesn't do much good.
We aren't trying to kill them, just earn breathing space to turn and run
back down the map.
>And if Stingers are in close, you'd better think
>about crippling them with phasers instead. What I've found about mines
>is the following. On a closed map, they can form a protective barrier
>for a little while. But the Hydran will simply charge right at you,
>push one fighter out in front as a suicide measure to take out your
>mine, the rest of the fighters go through the gap.
Timing settings are everything. Expect this - set the number of targets
to about half the number of fighters you expect to pass that way. More to
the point, if he sends one ahead it slows the rest down, which is the aim
of the exercise.
>Another alternative
>is for the ship to precede the fighters (risking damage to the ship) pop
>a shuttle, and have it sweep up the mine.
This takes big time.
>On a bigger map, T-bombs
>works only by forcing the hydrans to alter directions, giving you
>maneuvering room, but will rarely kill anything.
That's the idea. Kills are a bonus - room is what it's all about.
>Remember too, 4
>T-bombs, and 4 dummies for a regular cruiser type. Even if you have a
>D5 squadron of three cruisers, you only have a total of 24 of these
>things, and half of them are fakes. dropping T-bombs out of the hatch
>is dangerous, cause if you want a proper mine field, you'd have to lay
>it, opening up your shield is just another way of letting mass Ph-G from
>fighters inside range 15 to hurt you.
Roll 'em out the hatch and the side shields (don't try this trick with
hellbores around.) Works fine. Remember, dummies are no good on drones,
but they work fine to scare Stingers off.
>Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.board: 9-Oct-94 Re: SFB Hydran Analysis
>(wa.. by D.J.S. Dame...@cus.cam.
>> But the Stingers will only blow them up at range _4_ (ph-2 Swordfish
>> should be set to fire at range 3 - effective for ph-2 (will cripple a
>> packed Stinger)) if they know what they are. If the Hydrans don't have a
>> lot of labs along, they'll be doing drone defense at range 1-2-3. (at
>> high closure rate, you fire at range 3 and polish off at range 1. The
>> Type-IV with 1.5 space armour may well take both the shots, and then a
>> Stinger is up the proverbial creek.) The Swordfish reaches range 3 and
>> fires whether or not the Stingers kill it with phasers. Blat.
>
>Hmmm, what you say about swordfishes are true, especially armored ones,
>but the trick is that you'd only be able to do this twice, at the cost
>of almost all your drone points
Armoured drones aren't so rare - and swordfish don't need armour - they
fire before drone defense. The trick is to have the sneaky drones in the
first loadout and crud in the reloads - it's expensive, as you have to
pay for good reloads but can't get them in the Availability %, but it
works.
>and what's worse, you have to designate
>your target unless you plan on random targeting. If you designate, and
>the hyd alters his fighter formation, he might take out your swordfish
>before it fires.
Nowt wrong with random targeting. I have no shuttle-sized contacts, I
hope.
>It's also possible that the hyd ship may be with the
>formation, and let's face it, Hyds aren't short on phasers, they'll kill
>that drone. At range 5 say, ph-1 (only a few) and about 4 ph-G will
>garuntee a dead armored drone. (assuming if the ship is with the
>formation.
He won't know to do that - the swordfish look like any other drone to
him, rememeber.
>> This is true. However boosted fighters are easy kills, and unboosted
>> fighters can be left behind. A saber dance might dispatch a few fighters.
>
>Again, you forget the small target modifier, which is even worse if
>supported by either EM by the fighters or possibly if the carrier/ship
>loans EW to the fighters. Remember, EW lending rule applies differently
>for the Hydran hybrids. And boosted fighters has the option of when
>they turn on and off their packs (only once though, I think).
Small target modifiers can be avoided - anything outside range 2 is safe
against Stingers. Unboosted fighters won't catch me - they'll have to
approach me with the packs on.
>The uniformed hull of the ships prevents damage, multiple volleys will
>offset the effect, this however only applies to hellbore ships, which
>would rather saberdance than try to close with a disruptor ship (not
>enough power to do it right, can't escape afterwards)
Unified hull does nothing against a weapons Mizia. Hydrans are short on
phaser boxes if not on phaser shots...
>limited. Rangers can overrun by the following tactics, they put
>everything into ECM and EM for fighters and ships, don't load fusions,
>and just plain charge at you at best speed, which should be about 25 (I
>don't have the SSDs with me) or so.
Speed 25? He'd never get near most Klingons of my acquaintance.
> He won't turn off, he'll accept the damage, use phasers to hose the
>drones, he has lots of them too. (counting fighters of course)#
Armoured drones. Armoured drones. More armoured drones.
>Then
>come inside range 2, and OL the next turn, and that's all she wrote. Or
>if they're nasty, they were readying tractors too, which prevent shuttle
>launches, and keep you around for the little stingers.
If the Klink was nasty he got caught because he had *lots* of power in
tractor, and he grabs the Hydran at range 3 - it takes finesse to pull
*this* off, though.
>Now, I think WYN ships are excellent with Hellbores, the AUX BC can
>mount them, fly at high speed and shoot, on a floating map, the WYN will
>win, even against an opposing hydran HB ship of slightly greater BPV
>like the Lord Bishop, all it does is keep up speed, and fire hellbores.
>Ideal options mounts would be 2 HB, and 2 disruptors, the drones can
>take care of the fighters, they have enough points for a few
>swordfish/starfish against the fighters from an HB ship. Disruptors
>makes the opening, and then hellbores do the rest, and you even have
>four drone racks to shield your hellbores from damage, and power to burn
>what more could one ask for. (except for free pizza and beer).
Outside the tournament you have Optional Weapon Availability to mess
with. Have a nice day.
D.J.S. Damerell
Min Chen <mc...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.board: 10-Oct-94 SFB Hydran Analysis
>(was by Tim Kel...@horizons.jaxx
>and guess what, if I take out your #1, you're gonna be stuck trying to
>turn your ship, the perferred tactic would be to shot the leftside HB
>then turn around and fire the right side HB, over two turns, and repeat
>the process, but the problem is it has a shit turn mode, and if it does
>this, it is constantly depending on 2 HBs a turn, and if the Klingon
>sees this, he closes, and kills you before you have time to react.
Problem is if you have taken out his #1 he has taken out one of your
shields - assuming an opponent of competence equal to your own - and
beating an inept opponent can be done in any ship - and this means he can
ripple fire his HBs and all your weapons fall off, which is a bit of a
bummer really. The DG's turn mode isn't so shit, it's either C or D, and
us Freds/ Gorns fly ships with turn mode D all the time. Klingons have
the advantage of massive maneuvarability, but assuming everyone else is
helpless is a mistake.
>Remember, he can run a lot faster than you if you're loading your HBs.
>(this assumes that he kills your fighter, which a Klingon would've done)
Hummm.
> And you can forget about the Ph-G adding any specific advantages, cause
>it'll be busy swatting down drones to be helping you.
DG has 2 p-G, doesn't it? Only if you use a SP will his drone defence
even break a sweat.
>And let's face
>it, the Dragoon has lousy phaser arrangements.
Not post-refit.
>HB are great weapons,
>but you have to get in a weak shield first, are you willing to shot your
>first two HB on direct with your phasers backing it up?
Fire phasers and then HB on the next impulses.
>If you do, then
>what if the Klink tries to overrun, you're then up shit creek with 2 HBs
>and running on empty the next turn. Sure, you'll have your Phasers, but
>what's that against OL disruptors, and asides your Ph-G will just be a
>bit too busy. So, if you try saberdancing, I overrun you, and since you
>did that, you don't have OL HB when I reach 0-2 range the first time,
>and guess what, by the time the second time comes around, your ship is a
>wreck.
This is unlikely. You assert you are faster than the Hydran and you are
using OL disruptors, which will demand 16 power to arm. The Hydran's
standard HBs will consume 12 power, and he has silly amounts of APR. I
suspect if you OL you won't be able to close range at all. Even if you do,
you will fire guns into him, and then what if he tractors you because you
used batteries for overloaded disruptors? Next turn he can OL the two HBs
that are cycling that turn and you take 20 - 30 internals. He might let
you get drone hits on an up shield just so he can gut you with the
gatlings.
>You're also forgetting that pesky ECM drone that just screws up
>your firing solution at long range.
HB roll two dice to hit - ECM isn't such a big thing. Anyway ECM is a Bad
Thing.
>You have a problem powering up your
>HB, maintaining speed, and keeping up the EW.
You have the power problems if you OL and overrun.
>So, we're on a fixed map, I thought you were going to saber dance, now
>you wanna OL, good luck trying for OL range against a saberdancing D7,
>with superior maneuverability, I can almost garuntee (oops sp) taking
>down your #1 before you get into OL range, and asides, I'd never trade
>alpha strikes with HB ships in OL range, it's a lose-lose situation no
>matter what happens.
On a fixed map? The tourney map is *tiny*. Anyway, I suspect if you take
down his #1 on the turn he gets OL range, it won't matter. But I think
the Hydran cannot OL: the power demands ensure a) your opponent knows
damn well you've OLed and b) you can't catch him. The Hydran Anchor might
work.
>Saberdance range is different. You proposed a
>saberdance on a fixed map, that is crazy for a hyd who should be going
>for overruns.
OL needs mucho power...
>because they're always dead set on OLs. Drones don't help since he just
>ADDs them, and worst of all he has a better phaser arrangement.
He has but one ADD. A SP will give him cause for thought.
>On the
>note about 4 HB ship, in TCs, you'll have to remember that all the TCs
>has more power than you coventional ships (I think, don't play with TCs
>much), compare your fed TC to a Fed CA.
Nope. Fed TC has 2 more power. Gorn TC has the same, but less spare warp.
WYN TC is short 10 power. Most tourney cruisers have some power or 2 more.
>Finally, what do you think about Feds going against Hyds on a fixed map?
> I always wanted to take a CB against a DG or a BCF against a Lord
>Bishop. Guess the hyds might just have an edge in that one.
Dunno. The Freds overrun well and they proximity torp people well...
Alec Habig
>Armoured drones aren't so rare - and swordfish don't need armour - they
>fire before drone defense. The trick is to have the sneaky drones in the
>first loadout and crud in the reloads - it's expensive, as you have to
>pay for good reloads but can't get them in the Availability %, but it
>works.
Umm, don't have the rules with me to double check, but I'm pretty sure one has
to pay only for the drones in racks - your reloads come free and are exact
duplicates of the drones in racks.
Now, you could spend the first few turns of the scenario unloading some normal
drones and loading in your sneaky drones from the reloads, but this is boring,
plus sneaky drones don't work well unless the target is expecting normal
drones. And vice versa :) But in any case, you need to have normal drones
around to confuse the issue.
Alec
--
Alec Habig, Indiana University High Energy Astrophysics
aha...@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu
http://astrowww.astro.indiana.edu/personnel/ahabig/
Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns.
Mark Schultz
>In article <siahTPq00...@andrew.cmu.edu>,
>Min Chen <mc...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>>Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.board: 10-Oct-94 SFB Hydran Analysis
>>(was by Tim Kel...@horizons.jaxx
>>The question is one of maneuverability, the DG cannot outmaneuver a D7k,
>>and guess what, if I take out your #1, you're gonna be stuck trying to
>>turn your ship, the perferred tactic would be to shot the leftside HB
>>then turn around and fire the right side HB, over two turns, and repeat
>>the process, but the problem is it has a shit turn mode, and if it does
>>this, it is constantly depending on 2 HBs a turn, and if the Klingon
>>sees this, he closes, and kills you before you have time to react.
Anybody who thinks that they can beat a competent opponent flying a DG+ or IRQ
with a straight D7BK is severely deluded. Any Hydran worth his salt will not
give you the overload shot at anything but the beginning to middle of a turn.
If you take it, you WILL be overrun, and die the glorious death you deserve.
Odds are slim you're gonna get a clean shot at the number 1 shield on the DG+.
Us Hydrans are pretty protective of that shield early in the duel. Sabre
dancing just means assorted dinked shields (NL disrs can't do much more than
dink a cruiser shield) on the Hydran, with a single degrading, then failing
shield on the D7. The best the D7 can hope for in this fight is to take some
internals and escape. If he gets macho he's gonna die. BTW. Normal load
speed for the DG+ is 27. Normal load speed for the D7BK is also 27. The
D7 can't overload without being caught. Finally, there's a real good reason
why the DG+ runs 148 points (w/o fighters) against the D7BK's 130ish.
Tactical note. Me, I'd fly 30 with 3 HB's armed, first turn arming the 4th
on impulse 25 on reserve power if it looked like I would be in tight at the
end of the turn.
Min Chen
(was by Mark Sch...@watson.ibm.
> give you the overload shot at anything but the beginning to middle of
can't do much more than dink a cruiser shield) on the Hydran, with a
single degrading
You don't need overloads against a DG+ especially one that hasn't been
worn down yet... that's suicide. I'd just saberdance, and I think that
a full alpha strike at range 15 is not something to laugh at, I'm
talking phasers too, and there's those drones coming at the Hydran ship.
On a fixed map, the Klingon may be worried, cause there is a great
potential for an overrun. Oh by the way, it's really hard to protect
your #1 unless you fly oblique, and let's face it, at some point, you're
gonna centerline, and the Klingon will shot.
> The D7 can't overload without being caught Finally, there's a real
good reasonwhy the DG+ runs 148 points (w/o fighters) against the D7BK's
130ish.
Ok, I can buy the fact that a DG with fighters on a fixed map will chew
up a D7BK, mainly because the D7 will be stuck shooting at the fighters
too. But one on one, I think the D7 stand a good chance, after all, the
D7 with ECM drones will have a slight EW advantage, more if he starts
EMing. An overload against a DG isn't advisable anyways until he is
whittled down some, like one or two shields nearly down. The tactic of
shoting HB in ripples of 2 each turn don't sound all that bad, but if
you do that say in turn 1, what will prevent him from closing in turn 2
(if you have no fighters) I think that ECM won't affect HBs much, but
they really screw up phaser firings at range 15, so you shoot at least
one, but more likely two HBs on the safe side to garuntee a weak shield.
But that's on turn 1, Klingon closes at high speed next turn, and
you're still holding your 2HBs and arming the two other HBs which aren't
coming on line till 3rd turn. You can't depend too much on your
phasers, cause of the drones he's dumping at you. He closes inside OL
range, let's say he is inside range 5, what then? Do you shoot your HB
on OL, and pray he's damaged enough so that he goes away. The Klink
would more likely to be pressing in closer, and shoot whatever he's got
armed at close range, and at this point, we're at turn's end, ok 3rd
turn right? The Klingon OL disruptors, and go for a full alpha strike
at close range, probably 2-4. And he hurts you, you shoot two more OL
HBs, and probably cause a lot of internals on the Klingon ship, but then
you aren't in better shape yourself, and since he lobbed two more drones
at you, your phasers won't all be shooting at him. He would ten stick
around at close range and wait for next turn. But the simple fact is 4
OL disruptors will outdo 2 OL HBs any day. Your idea of holding 3 HBs
has merit, but unfortunately, that means your 4th won't come on line
until turn 2, again, a delima. Sort of like a Fed DD that only arms 2
photons cause he doesn't have the power to arm them all and expect to
run very fast. You'll have to forgive me on this score, but I don't
have any SSDs with me and won't have them for another 2 month or so,
thus, my projection of DG power curve is on memory... something like 30
warps, 4 impulse, and 8 APR (?) right. Hmmm, 4 pt for house keeping,
twelve for HBs, and that leaves about 26 pts or so, yup, you can fly at
26, with no ECM whatsoever. If we saberdance what makes you think the
Klingon will keep his speed at 27, instead of something lower?
Anyways, I figure most of this discussion is conjectural anyways, we
can't actually know until we sit down ourselves and play out the
scenario.
Min
D.J.S. Damerell
Alec Habig <aha...@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu> wrote:
>djs...@cus.cam.ac.uk (D.J.S. Damerell) writes:
>>Armoured drones aren't so rare - and swordfish don't need armour - they
>>fire before drone defense. The trick is to have the sneaky drones in the
>>first loadout and crud in the reloads - it's expensive, as you have to
>>pay for good reloads but can't get them in the Availability %, but it
>>works.
>
>Umm, don't have the rules with me to double check, but I'm pretty sure one has
>to pay only for the drones in racks - your reloads come free and are exact
>duplicates of the drones in racks.
Yah, but if I take in my B-rack 6 speed-128 Thermonuclear Magic Missiles
at 10 points each, I'm entitled to (say) 2 full reloads costing 60 points
per reload. However drone availability dictates if I take 33% TMM-128s
then the rest of my drones are Type-1 junkdrones. If I'd taken 2 TMM-128s
in the first loadout then I could get 4 reload drones for free (fulfilling
Drone Availability) and have the same number of good drones for 1/3 the
price: hence, having all your nastys loaded at start is expensive, since
you can't have the sexy reloads you are entitled to.
>Now, you could spend the first few turns of the scenario unloading some normal
>drones and loading in your sneaky drones from the reloads, but this is boring,
>plus sneaky drones don't work well unless the target is expecting normal
>drones. And vice versa :) But in any case, you need to have normal drones
>around to confuse the issue.
My Hydran opponents expect armoured drones to use up gatlings, and it does
them no good. He can expect some Swordfish thrown in, but he still can't
destroy all drones at range 4 just in case they are Swordfish.
> Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns.
I have neither car nor guns. If I want to kill someone, I'll use a
knife...
Koen van der Pasch
In a message of <Fri 14 Oct 94 16:23> to All (2:283/323@fidonet), you
wrote:
AH> ^References: <Mia4nrm00...@andrew.cmu.edu>
AH> <37gqo9$l...@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>
AH> From: aha...@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu (Alec Habig)
AH> Newsgroups: rec.games.board
AH> Subject: SFB Hydran Analysis (was Re: Lyran Folly)
AH> Organization: Indiana University Astrophysics, Bloomington, IN
AH> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 16:23:06 GMT
AH> djs...@cus.cam.ac.uk (D.J.S. Damerell) writes:
A>Armoured drones aren't so rare - and swordfish don't need armour - they
A>fire before drone defense. The trick is to have the sneaky drones in the
A>first loadout and crud in the reloads - it's expensive, as you have to
A>pay for good reloads but can't get them in the Availability %, but it
A>works.
AH> Umm, don't have the rules with me to double check, but I'm pretty sure
one
AH> has
AH> to pay only for the drones in racks - your reloads come free and are
exact
AH> duplicates of the drones in racks.
AH> Now, you could spend the first few turns of the scenario unloading
some
AH> normal
AH> drones and loading in your sneaky drones from the reloads, but this
is
AH> boring,
AH> plus sneaky drones don't work well unless the target is expecting
normal
AH> drones. And vice versa :) But in any case, you need to have normal
AH> drones
AH> around to confuse the issue.
What you could do (that isn't boring) is simply put the rest of the fancy
drones into scatter packs. This way you can still get your fancy drones on
the board quickly, without having to wait for turns (Which IS boring
indeed) for them to come on the racks.
AH> Alec
AH> --
AH> Alec Habig, Indiana University High Energy Astrophysics
AH> aha...@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu
AH> http://astrowww.astro.indiana.edu/personnel/ahabig/
AH> Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns.
AH> -=-
AH> + Origin: Pordita je Esperantlingva Bultenejo Saluton! (2:283/323)
Tim Kelley
j...@caleb.UUCP (Jim Pritchett) wrote:
JP>In article <reynolds....@stimpy.cs.iastate.edu>, Owen Reynolds writes:
JP>> Some of my many gripes: Stingers are far too powerful and too cheap.
JP>> Compared to Klingon fighters they are faster, tougher and dish out much
JP>> more damage, while costing 2-3 points more. A winning tactic in many
JP>Hey, try comparing them to the plasma D fighters. I think the D fighters
JP>are some of the worst in the game (for fighters with comparable speed.)
Hello Jim.
I rather like the Plasma-D fighters for what they were seemingly
designed to do - attack/defend bases. I've found them rather useful for
this. In the Cap's Ed., the plasma fighters have generally the same
speeds as the other fighters in the game.
I agree that in open space battlees they're difficult to employ (but
then so are all fighters in this respect).
---
. QMPro 1.0 22-3452 . tim.k...@horizons.jaxx.com
Tim Kelley
marks...@watson.ibm. (Mark Schultz) wrote:
(quoted by Min Chen)
MC>> The D7 can't overload without being caught Finally, there's a real
MC>>good reasonwhy the DG+ runs 148 points (w/o fighters) against the
MC>>D7BK's 130ish.
Mark (and Min),
Just an FYI....
The refitted Dragoon is worth 148 points (130+18), a fully refitted
Klingon D7k is worth 152 points with fast drones (121+7+3+4+5+12).
I personally think the DG is the superior ship, floating map or not.
A good match up, without the fighters.
---
. QMPro 1.0 22-3452 . Requiesat in partibus
Jim Pritchett
> Some of my many gripes: Stingers are far too powerful and too cheap.
> Compared to Klingon fighters they are faster, tougher and dish out much
> more damage, while costing 2-3 points more. A winning tactic in many
Hey, try comparing them to the plasma D fighters. I think the D fighters
are some of the worst in the game (for fighters with comparable speed.)
> Their ships mostly have unified hull, and lots of it, and center warp
> on the destroyers. They are really, really good at overruns because of
> the way internals have such a small effect on them. For a refitted fusion
> cruiser, you have 4 ph-2's, 2 ph 1's and a pair of gattlings. Every third
> phaser hit destroys a "good" phaser, but the phaser 1's satisfy this
> condition.
That is what they were designed to do. Don't let them get that close. You
should try to fight them at range.
> The hellbore ships seem to be at a disadvantage, paying 3 points/turn
> to arm the things, but they have even more power than the Klingons do!
> They now take some of the best-built ships in the game and casually
> add the most powerful fighters in the game.
Don't forget the Fed gatling fighters. However, Stingers are nice - even the
ones without the gatlings.
Jim Pritchett
UUCP: rwsys.lonestar.org!caleb!jdp "For with God nothing shall
be impossible." Luke 1:37
Jim Pritchett
> player 1) Every third phaser hit destroys a "good" phaser, but the phaser 1's
> satisfy this condition.
>
> player 2) Wrong. The wording under the Captain's Edition rules is that every
> third hit destroys a "best possible" phaser, which means a ph-G.
>
> player 3) Sorry, but you're the one who is wrong. "Best possible phaser"
> doesn't mean "the phaser which YOU think is the best phaser;" it refers to
> the phaser which is "best" according to the annex which lists weapon damage
> priority specifically for this purpose. For phasers, that list is ph-4,
> ph-1, ph-G, ph-2, ph-3.
>
> AHHH!
>
> I cant't find the rule that specifies every third hit is a good phaser,
> although I've always played that way. Where is it? Does this rule include any
> weapon hits - we've always played no.
I believe that all this is specified in the damage allocation rules - not in
an annex. Check it out. The rules are very specific about this.
Jim Pritchett
> N
> j...@caleb.UUCP (Jim Pritchett) wrote:
>
>
> JP>In article <reynolds....@stimpy.cs.iastate.edu>, Owen Reynolds writes:
>
> JP>> Some of my many gripes: Stingers are far too powerful and too cheap.
> JP>> Compared to Klingon fighters they are faster, tougher and dish out much
> JP>> more damage, while costing 2-3 points more. A winning tactic in many
>
> JP>Hey, try comparing them to the plasma D fighters. I think the D fighters
> JP>are some of the worst in the game (for fighters with comparable speed.)
>
> Hello Jim.
> I rather like the Plasma-D fighters for what they were seemingly
> designed to do - attack/defend bases. I've found them rather useful for
It would sure take a LOT of D fighters to significantly hurt a base station
or larger. Almost anyone can easily kill the lesser stuff. A D torp needs
to be within 5 hexes just to do 10 damage - if the target can run or chaff
even that is questionable. The base gets lots of shuttles to weasel with...
The drone boys can toss more drones from far away... Wouldn't they be
better for base attack? The Stinger IIs can shoot up or chaff the D and
close for the Fusions...
> this. In the Cap's Ed., the plasma fighters have generally the same
> speeds as the other fighters in the game.
> I agree that in open space battlees they're difficult to employ (but
> then so are all fighters in this respect).
Well, I think that the drone fighters can still toss off a drone wave and
go reload on their carriers. Certainly, the stingers and plasma fighters
will have a hard time catching ships without packs. With packs, they die
pretty easily.
Am I missing something here?