# quick way to get rough pip count?

3 views

### Jim Peplow

Apr 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/14/98
to

While playing BG on the 'net, the exact pip count is always available.
However, while playing "real world" games it's not so easy.

What is the easiest way to get a pip count? I'm guessing it may have
something to do with figuring an average for each quadrant of the board.

Thanks for any input.
--
Jim - Truth on GG
jpe...@bcag.org

### RT Dom

Apr 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/15/98
to

On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:07:52 -0700, "Jim Peplow" <jpe...@bcag.org>
wrote:

Yes, what is sometimes used are "crossovers" - the number of movements
required from one quadant of the board to another. If no checkers are
borne off, you could count 1 for each checker in your outer board plus
2 for each in your opponent's outer board plus 3 for each in your
opponent's inner board. If you have 13 crossovers and your opponent
has 15, you are in theory 12 pips ahead. But I wouldn't use this
method for evaluating racing double decisions. I would use it,
though, for evaluating decisions like whether my timing is right for a
backgame (or whether my opponent's is), or maybe whether to use 5's or
6's to run (but in this case I'd still look at my distribution and my
opponent's to see if our checkers tend to "average" the middle of the

### Kevin Bastian

Apr 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/15/98
to

Check out Jack Kissane's article on "Cluster Counting" on McCool's
It might take a minute or two to load, since there are a number of board
graphics, but it's an excellent article and worth reading.

Jim Peplow <jpe...@bcag.org> wrote in article
<6h0q69\$o...@enews4.newsguy.com>...

### Donald Kahn

Apr 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/16/98
to

"Jim Peplow" <jpe...@bcag.org> wrote:

>While playing BG on the 'net, the exact pip count is always available.
>However, while playing "real world" games it's not so easy.
>
>What is the easiest way to get a pip count? I'm guessing it may have
>something to do with figuring an average for each quadrant of the board.
>
>Thanks for any input.

It is a tedious process when you start, but certain things that come
up frequently make it easier. 2 checkers "opposing" each other total
25. Bar and 8 point checkers total 15. The midpoint is 13 times
whatever difference in number of checkers there. I count the two
outfields and take the difference, and then add the two home boards.
Most of the time I get it right.
I think.

deekay

### TC Hathaway

Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98
to

Jim Peplow wrote:
>
> While playing BG on the 'net, the exact pip count is always available.
> However, while playing "real world" games it's not so easy.
>
> What is the easiest way to get a pip count? I'm guessing it may have
> something to do with figuring an average for each quadrant of the board.
>
> Thanks for any input.
> --
> Jim - Truth on GG
> jpe...@bcag.org

I am usually too lazy to do a real count (unless it is a high-octane
cube). I like to think of the number of throws each player will take to
get all his men into the inner table. If you consider each throw to
average 8 pips, then men on the 7-10 points are 1/2 throw away, those on
11-14 are 1, etc, with the bar and 23,24 points being 2-1/2 throws.
arrangements, this must also be taken into account.

### Robert-Jan Veldhuizen

Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
to

On 16-apr-98 07:10:48, Donald Kahn wrote:

DK> "Jim Peplow" <jpe...@bcag.org> wrote:

>>While playing BG on the 'net, the exact pip count is always available.
>>However, while playing "real world" games it's not so easy.
>>
>>What is the easiest way to get a pip count? I'm guessing it may have
>>something to do with figuring an average for each quadrant of the board.
>>
>>Thanks for any input.

DK> It is a tedious process when you start, but certain things that come
DK> up frequently make it easier. 2 checkers "opposing" each other total
DK> 25. Bar and 8 point checkers total 15. The midpoint is 13 times
DK> whatever difference in number of checkers there. I count the two
DK> outfields and take the difference, and then add the two home boards.
DK> Most of the time I get it right.
DK> I think.

But what are your qualifications Donald? The last time I checked ("whois
deekay") on FIBS I was informed you have 0 (ZERO) experience and a
1500.00 rating!

--
Zorba/Robert-Jan

### lee

Apr 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/24/98
to

In article <997.7413...@xs4all.nl>, Robert-Jan Veldhuizen
<veld...@xs4all.nl> writes
Does that mean he can't count?

--
----------------------------------------------
l...@infoplus.demon.co.uk

Web site: http://www.ibmpcug.co.uk/~oak/info/

Email for links to/from this site
----------------------------------------------

### RLoggins

Apr 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/25/98
to

Be assured that an accurate pip count can be mentally calculated in about 5
seconds for a board with many men...there are many mental tricks that can
help you with this....you need to just sit down with an empty board and LOOK
at it and notice the similarities and patterns that occur.

lee wrote in message ...

### acep...@deltacity.net

Apr 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/25/98
to

On 19 Apr 98 03:45:50 +0100, Robert-Jan Veldhuizen <veld...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> On 16-apr-98 07:10:48, Donald Kahn wrote:

snip

> But what are your qualifications Donald? The last time I checked ("whois
> deekay") on FIBS I was informed you have 0 (ZERO) experience and a
> 1500.00 rating!
>
> --
> Zorba/Robert-Jan
>

If you don't know who deekay is, I ask you: what are your qualifications, Zorba?

acepoint

http://home.deltacity.net/~acepoint/index.htm

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Apr 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/25/98
to

This morning I just found out a MUCH easier way to keeep track of pips!!!!!!!!
See, you start w/ 167 pips. Each time you roll the dice, sum the numbers of
both dice and subtract from the pip count number. When you roll doublets, make
sure you also double the result. It's as easy as 123.

Example: you begin w/ 167.

You roll 52 on the opening roll (yuk!!), and your pip count now is 160 -- (167
- 5 + 2 = 160).

On your next roll, you roll 31, and your pip count now is 156 -- (160 - 3 + 1).

Now, on your third roll you get 55 and your pip count drops to 136 -- (156 -
2(5+5)).

And so on and so forth...

Easy, huh???

Rodrigo

Apr 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/25/98
to

I've attempted to keep a running pip count in the past, and find that
it's just too much trouble most of the time. The problem is that it
gets complicated when blots start getting hit willy-nilly, and it
distracts me from other considerations.

I can count crossovers if necessary to get a very rough ballpark
"who's ahead" sort of count, and do a complete accurate count in under
five seconds. So I don't find it's worth much mental energy to keep a
running count.

-Patti
--
http://www.gammon.com/ | junkie software geek leatherbyke
or just yell, "Hey, Patti!" | nethead biker.

### Herb & Lee Kanner

Apr 26, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/26/98
to

Not so easy, Rodrigo, when one of my checkers gets hit. Then I have to
add to my pip count the trip around the board minus the number of the
point on which I entered. Also, I have to keep this running count for
both myself and my opponent.

--
Herb and/or Lee Kanner

kanner...@acm.org

### Robert-Jan Veldhuizen

Apr 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/29/98
to

On 24-apr-98 17:14:21, lee wrote:

> In article <997.7413...@xs4all.nl>, Robert-Jan Veldhuizen
> <veld...@xs4all.nl> writes

>>On 16-apr-98 07:10:48, Donald Kahn wrote:
>>

>> DK> "Jim Peplow" <jpe...@bcag.org> wrote:
>>
>>>>While playing BG on the 'net, the exact pip count is always available.
>>>>However, while playing "real world" games it's not so easy.
>>>>
>>>>What is the easiest way to get a pip count? I'm guessing it may have
>>>>something to do with figuring an average for each quadrant of the board.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks for any input.
>>
>> DK> It is a tedious process when you start, but certain things that come
>> DK> up frequently make it easier. 2 checkers "opposing" each other total
>> DK> 25. Bar and 8 point checkers total 15. The midpoint is 13 times
>> DK> whatever difference in number of checkers there. I count the two
>> DK> outfields and take the difference, and then add the two home boards.
>> DK> Most of the time I get it right.
>> DK> I think.
>>

>>But what are your qualifications Donald? The last time I checked ("whois
>>deekay") on FIBS I was informed you have 0 (ZERO) experience and a
>>1500.00 rating!

> Does that mean he can't count?

I don't know, I just think it's a good thing to check if posters here
are qualified to talk about certain subjects, as Donald wants it!

--
Zorba/Robert-Jan

### Robert-Jan Veldhuizen

Apr 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/29/98
to

On 25-apr-98 12:36:43, acepoint wrote:

> On 19 Apr 98 03:45:50 +0100, Robert-Jan Veldhuizen <veld...@xs4all.nl>
> wrote:

>> On 16-apr-98 07:10:48, Donald Kahn wrote:

>> But what are your qualifications Donald? The last time I checked ("whois
>> deekay") on FIBS I was informed you have 0 (ZERO) experience and a
>> 1500.00 rating!

> If you don't know who deekay is, I ask you: what are your qualifications,
> Zorba?

Qualifications for what?

> acepoint

I don't know your qualifications either! Too bad. Maybe you two need to
work on that? :-)

But, at least now we know that we better ignore deekay's "articles"
on FIBS' dice: he never plays there.

--
Zorba/Robert-Jan

### cauce....@vo.cnchost.com

Apr 30, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/30/98
to

See ye here, Robert-Jan Veldhuizen <veld...@xs4all.nl> crafted the following
words:

>On 25-apr-98 12:36:43, acepoint wrote:
>
>> On 19 Apr 98 03:45:50 +0100, Robert-Jan Veldhuizen <veld...@xs4all.nl>
>> wrote:
>>> On 16-apr-98 07:10:48, Donald Kahn wrote:
>
>
>>> But what are your qualifications Donald? The last time I checked ("whois
>>> deekay") on FIBS I was informed you have 0 (ZERO) experience and a
>>> 1500.00 rating!

>I don't know your qualifications either! Too bad. Maybe you two need to

>work on that? :-)
>
>But, at least now we know that we better ignore deekay's "articles"
>on FIBS' dice: he never plays there.

Careful, your ignorance is showing. If one only plays "unlimited" matches, the
rating *never* changes because they never finish any matches to have them
scored.

There are a few very strong players with low ratings/experience scores because
of this. I *think* they like this, it keeps them from being pestered by players
of lesser skill who want to play all the top players and are too impressed with
their own skill to deign to invite a "newbee" with a score of 1500/0. They
mostly just play with their friends. They aren't concerned with the computer's
rating of their skill level, they already know how good they all are.

furrfu

jc
All email sent to the address used for this post is deleted unread
(although headers may be used in my spam filters). To reach my real
email box, send to personal@ at the above domain.

### Donald Kahn

May 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/2/98
to

Robert-Jan Veldhuizen <veld...@xs4all.nl> wrote:

>>>But what are your qualifications Donald? The last time I checked ("whois
>>>deekay") on FIBS I was informed you have 0 (ZERO) experience and a
>>>1500.00 rating!
>

>> Does that mean he can't count?
>
>I don't know, I just think it's a good thing to check if posters here
>are qualified to talk about certain subjects, as Donald wants it!

Inasmuch as this pest insists on making a public personal matter out
of it, I state the following:

1. I said that I could count, and even sometimes got it right, and I
stand on that.

2. I do not play on FIBS, although I did register, tried it a few
times, and gave Kit \$500 to help support it. I prefer to play on
GamesGrid.

3. I am not hesitant to state my opinion that anyone who believes
there is a conspiracy to roll unrandom dice on FIBS or elsewhere, or
that they can actually notice the tiny differences that do occur from
dead average distribution of doubles thrown (1/6), is an out-and-out
nut case.

This will be my final statement on the matter.

deekay