Magriel Rollouts?
Andrew Bokelman
"Backgammon." But if someone has already done this I don't see any
point in doing it again. Has anyone done this. If not, what sort of
setting would be meaningful without being useless overkill.
Sander van Rijnswou
Magriel is very informative, probably 90%
of the plays in the book are 100% correct. But it would
be very nice to know just what is suspect and what is
not. I know sometime ago somebody made a rollout of
Robertie and I think that Jellyfish disagreed on the majority
of the positions (is that true?) but of course
Robertie is NOT an introduction as Magriel.
I don't think Magriel has been rolled out. (But please prove
me wrong!) So if you want to do it (or just a few chapters)
then that would be great.
Sander
csr
Good news and bad news for those interested in rollouts from Magriel's
"Backgammon".... I have busied myself and up to three computers, on and off,
with rollouts of positions from Paul Magriel's de facto bible of basic modern
backgammon theory for the past seven months, complementing results with
commentary, "human" analysis and number-crunching, and in some cases with
lengthy interactive rollouts such that a better feeling for rival checker
plays might be obtained. I view the project as quasi-proprietary. No results
will be published or shared with the general public until the author of the
book himself has had a chance to review the entirety of the project, and, if
he so wishes, purchase rights to the information, give his blessings to its
publication, or condemn it altogether. Anyone is, of course, free to roll the
positions out on their own. I myself am not willing to disclose what I
consider to be valuable and hard-earned information for nothing. No offense
to the backgammon community, but I sincerely feel that I should be entitled
to at least some modest monetary reward for this effort, as should Magriel
himself. Consider: "Backgammon" will probably survive another few decades
as a manual; though it contains errors, at least an enlightening and, in any
case, reasonable approach to analysis is offered. The rollouts give us,
then, a new springboard from which we can readjust our thinking about the
game. Magriel *thought* about backgammon while Snowie and Jellyfish have no
idea whether they're playing backgammon or mowing someone's lawn. Beg them
as we may, they will never tell us *why* 6/5 is superior to 24/23, nor will
they ever know. We are, then, forced to fill in the blanks ourselves. I have
spent a great deal of time filling in the blanks. To ask me to hand over
these revelations gratis would be an insult. After the aforementioned seven
months I have completed nearly 35% of this project. By January 2000 I hope
to have the entire scoop ready for....? One final note: I believe that
anyone who charges money for a book on backgammon should be happily willing
to prop any position he or she sells. I promise to be no exception, should I
have the honor of publishing any results.
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Frank Berger
> consider to be valuable and hard-earned information for nothing. No offense
> to the backgammon community, but I sincerely feel that I should be entitled
> to at least some modest monetary reward for this effort, as should Magriel
> himself. Consider: "Backgammon" will probably survive another few decades
>
------ cut ------
> to have the entire scoop ready for....? One final note: I believe that
> anyone who charges money for a book on backgammon should be happily willing
> to prop any position he or she sells. I promise to be no exception, should I
> have the honor of publishing any results.
>
no flame intended but i really ask myself why anyone doing something with BG is
concerned with money.
In the next few days (speak 2-3 days, i have to brush up my website) comes a
database for BG-Blitz where "New Ideas with BG", the very best book ever written
on BG (tnx Kit), is rolled out with Snowie. NO CHARGE
Kit Woolsey spends some money every month to keep FIBS on rolling dice. NO CHARGE
Magriel's NG is a good book and it is very well written, but there are no
secrets in it . I personally believe that all would benefit if such knowledge is
shared.
Just think a few seconds on the wealth of free Software.
As i said just my 2 pennies
ciao
frank
JP White
> no flame intended but i really ask myself why anyone doing something with BG is
> concerned with money.
> In the next few days (speak 2-3 days, i have to brush up my website) comes a
> database for BG-Blitz where "New Ideas with BG", the very best book ever written
> on BG (tnx Kit), is rolled out with Snowie. NO CHARGE
>
> Kit Woolsey spends some money every month to keep FIBS on rolling dice. NO CHARGE
>
> Magriel's NG is a good book and it is very well written, but there are no
> secrets in it . I personally believe that all would benefit if such knowledge is
> shared.
> Just think a few seconds on the wealth of free Software.
>
> As i said just my 2 pennies
>
> ciao
> frank
Hear Hear!!
Well said.
BTW Frank. I have found BG-Blitz to be a great tool. I especially like replaying
games/matches with it, the separate little control box for controlling moves/ reading
comments is great. Keep up the good work.
--
JP White
Mailto:jp.w...@nashville.com
Andrew Bokelman
>I myself am not willing to disclose what I consider to be valuable and
>hard-earned information for nothing. No offense to the backgammon community,
>but I sincerely feel that I should be entitled to at least some modest
>monetary reward for this effort, as should Magriel himself.
Despite the comments by others, I feel that you are entitled to save your
information for publication. Your book seems especially interesting in that
it adds commentary to the rollouts. There are lots of books for sale by
members of the backgammon community and I don't see why your book needs to be
free. I think that people have every right to sell backgammon books because
it gives them income from backgammon and encourages publishing companies to
support backgammon materials.
That said, I also appreciate the generosity of people who offer free
information on the Web. But despite the fact that people like Woolsey are so
generous with their information, I will also buy books by Woolsey and others
and not complain about paying.
I plan to do some Magriel rollouts and discuss some of them here. And if I
do the whole book I will want to load it onto my website. But I don't think
this competes with your book. Mine will undoubtedly not have as many
repetitions as yours, and will offer no commentary. I also think this does
not violates anybody's rights because discussion/criticism of published
information is not a violation of copyright law unless long passages are
quoted as part of the discussion.
I wish you well in your endeavor and will probably buy your book. Human
analysis of a position offers far more than a Snowie rollout. But I will
offer mine for free and hope that I can give back in part for all that the
backgammon community has given to me.
..Andrew
VSG
Andrew Bokelman <73457...@CompuServe.COM> schrieb in Nachricht
<#fuBU6#W#GA....@ntdwwaaw.compuserve.com>...
>I plan to do some Magriel rollouts and discuss some of them here. And if I
>do the whole book I will want to load it onto my website. But I don't think
>this competes with your book. Mine will undoubtedly not have as many
>repetitions as yours, and will offer no commentary. I also think this does
>not violates anybody's rights because discussion/criticism of published
>information is not a violation of copyright law unless long passages are
>quoted as part of the discussion.
>
You will of course liase with Mr. Magriel on this project I trust. Although you
claim it to be perfectly legal (i'm not so sure if the whole books positions are
rolled out)isn't it morally correct to gain Magriels approval first? I know Bill
Robertie was not a happy man when positions from his book advanced backgammon
were rolled out and published. I'm sure you will give Magriel the respect he
deserves and seek his approval first before publishing.. Wont you?
Alan Webb
rich.fr...@mindspring.com
Why is consulting with Magriel "morally correct"? Do movie and book critics
usually consult with the writers before writing a critique??
The language in Magriel is quite clear. Magriel never says that the moves he
suggests are "correct moves, in my opinion." Instead, he always refers to
moves as "the correct move." This should provoke debate and criticism, if
appropriate. In a way I think it is arrogant to say there is only one correct
move in a given situation at all times.
Don't get me wrong. I think Magriel is a great book. It is the bible of BG.
Furthermore, doing an analysis of the positions he puts in the book is rather
meaningless without the context that he provides. Unless you are trying to
prove that he is wrong, which is just a pointless exercise anyway.
So when this work comes out (free or for a charge), I would use it as
supplemental reading while rereading Magriel, trying to look at different
views and gaining the experience from those different views.
But let's not make it out to be some immoral act unless it is approved by the
author. Done the right way, it will be quite legal and quite valuable in its
own right.
Rich
VSG
ours, and will offer no commentary. I also think this does
>> >not violates anybody's rights because discussion/criticism of published
>> >information is not a violation of copyright law unless long passages are
>> >quoted as part of the discussion.
>> >
>>
>> You will of course liase with Mr. Magriel on this project I trust. Although
>you
>> claim it to be perfectly legal (i'm not so sure if the whole books positions
>are
>> rolled out)isn't it morally correct to gain Magriels approval first? I know
>Bill
>> Robertie was not a happy man when positions from his book advanced backgammon
>> were rolled out and published. I'm sure you will give Magriel the respect he
>> deserves and seek his approval first before publishing.. Wont you?
>>
>> Alan Webb
>>
>>
>
>Why is consulting with Magriel "morally correct"? Do movie and book critics
>usually consult with the writers before writing a critique??
>
<snip>
Because Magriel may wish that others don't jump on the bandwagon by rolling out
his positions and publishing them for profit and "writing a critique" is a far
cry from rolling out every position in the book.
Turn the tables round.. you spend a lot of time writing a book formulating
complex positions. Publish it to high acclaim. Years later some guy comes along
and with the aid of a program, rolls them out, comments on them (no doubt with
the aid of a program) and gets ROYALTIES for it??!!
Nooo, morally wrong might be a bit harsh, but I personally wouldn't be
particularly proud of myself publishing something where the origins of which are
not my intellectual property, unless I had at LEAST discussed it with the person
who put the effort in originally. Before you know it everyone will be writing
books like "Magriel Analysed!" and "Magriels mistakes!" etc etc.. It leaves a
bad taste in the mouth. Especially as without Magriels original work Backgammon
wouldn't be what it is for an awful lot of people who have read the book. All
I'm saying is respect the man.
Done the right way, it will be quite legal and quite valuable in its
>own right.
>
The right way IMHO is to discuss it with Magriel first. I agree it would be of
some value but there are ways and means in which respect for the original work
may be shown. In any case.. wouldn't a foreword by Magriel himself add
additional value to the book? Or is it as I suspect going to be a "Jellyfish
rollout..+0.000012 equity" better than Magriel type of work which is hardly
likely to please Magriel is it.
I said my peace. That is all I intend to comment on the matter.
Alan
rich.fr...@mindspring.com
>> Turn the tables round.. you spend a lot of time writing a book formulating
> complex positions. Publish it to high acclaim. Years later some guy comes
along
> and with the aid of a program, rolls them out, comments on them (no doubt
with
> the aid of a program) and gets ROYALTIES for it??!!
Yeah, if it is a for profit book, you are probably right. I guess I was
thinking about discussing things here or on a webpage. I wouldn't want to try
to make money off of somebody else's work. Unless he was in it with me.
> may be shown. In any case.. wouldn't a foreword by Magriel himself add
> additional value to the book? Or is it as I suspect going to be a "Jellyfish
> rollout..+0.000012 equity" better than Magriel type of work which is hardly
> likely to please Magriel is it.
I could see that kind of book happening, and that is one of the things wrong
with BG today. We are letting the computers tell us how to play, becoming
mindless automatons if we are not careful.
>
> I said my peace. That is all I intend to comment on the matter.
Too bad, because you seem to be someone who will debate the philosophy of
things. Between the dropper announcements and the endless rollouts and equity
tables, things can get somewhat dry here. ;^) Main reason why I usually only
lurk.
Andrew Bokelman
>You will of course liase with Mr. Magriel on this project I trust. Although
>you claim it to be perfectly legal (i'm not so sure if the whole books
>positions are rolled out)isn't it morally correct to gain Magriels approval
>first?
Actually, I think it is morally incorrect to insist that I contact Magriel
first. Any theory is free to be analysed without permission of the
theorist. In the field of science it is even considered commendable to
replicate a study using a different method to test the original results. And
in the field of sports and games, methods that are established by experts are
constantly being tested and improved upon.
>Bill Robertie was not a happy man when positions from his book
>advanced backgammon were rolled out and published.
I've done research and my research has been questioned and in a couple of
cases people pointed out flaws in my methods. I was certainly not happy to
be criticized but I accepted it as a further advance on what I had started.
And I suspect the Magriel's moves will fair very well. The one I rolled out
showed that Snowie 3-ply was inferior to Magriel.
BTW, I said I was going to roll out the entire book but this is an
overstatement. I'm going to pass on all the opening moves, and in games that
are progressed step by step, I'm only going to roll out the ones that are
used as examples of ways to move. And as far as commentary goes, I think
I'll only point out that Snowie rolls out its moves based on how Snowie
plays. Another player (such as Magriel) will most likely make moves later in
the game that are different than Snowie, so the rollouts do not test how well
Magriel's choice would fair if he was allowed to choose all the
subsequent moves.
..Andrew
Alan Webb
BTW (not wanting to start another thread) shouldn't that be piece and not peace?
--
JP White
mailto:jp.w...@nashville.comI'm pretty sure its "peace". In the context of .. I'm at peace now that I have said my views.
Having said that. Living in Germany for the past 11 years speaking practically solely German, you tend to forget your own mother tongue.. I find myself forgeting basic English words sometimes :)
regards
Alan Webb
Frank Berger
>> formulating
>> complex positions. Publish it to high acclaim. Years later some guy
>> comes along
>> and with the aid of a program, rolls them out, comments on them (no
>> doubt with
>> the aid of a program) and gets ROYALTIES for it??!!
>
> Alan, it's the making money off someone else's work that is a problem.
> The original author/publisher is likely to get excited by this.
> Especially if you start to add analyses of your own, and therefore
> negate the need to purchase the original. If you want to do such a
> thing, you do need to get the authors permission, which will no doubt
> include a royalty for him!
>
There was some discussion a time ago on this point. The agreement was
that a position can't be copyrighted, the acompanying text can. The
collection of some diagrams was disputed wether this fits a copyright,
IMHO not.
One additinal aspect is wether the book is still available. Magriel is
published again, but most old books wont be published again, so no one
would be hurt.
Another point, naturally if one writes a book, there is a fee to pay.
I've understand the posting not that a book should be made, but thee was
a fee for his work. This could have been a sole ASCII-file. In this case
i dislike that (but maybe i've understand it wrong)
>
> Contrast this with say Frank Berger's recent release of rollout
> analysis for 'New Ideas in Backgammon'. Here no money is being made,
> and Frank was careful not to include any in depth analyses. In fact
> having gone over the first dozen or so problems, I found that I did
> not understand the reason behind several of the 'solutions'. This
> makes me want to buy the original book in order to get an analysis of
> the positions, so I can better understand them. In a way, Frank has
> helped sell more of the original book.
>
I very much hope, that more people buy this book cause it's the most
important book for checkerplay inspite of Magriels written till now.
(BTW i think that most positions in Magriel are right cuase they look to
me very constructed or at least good selected, so i would be astonished
should there been major errors)
chili
Chili
snip
Frank Berger
> Where the hell are these rollouts anyway?
>
> Chili
>
>
The rollouts for "New Ideas in BG", "BG for Profit" and "Better BG" are on
the BG-Blitz home site
http://www.netcologne.de/~nc-bergerfr
The rollout of "Advanced BG" has to be done and it seems to be a volunteer.
"Paradoxes & Probabilities" is done by me, but could be some time until it's
ready.
ciao
frank
Vladimir Kuznetsov
I still don't understund why anybody would want roll outs of
positions in Magriel's book. They were all made up by Paul to
illustrate certain concepts. So what does rollout prove? That some of
those concepts are incorrect? No. Just some positions can have some
better moves that Paul recommends. So what? Concepts are still there.
Thx
vlad
chili
csr
The concepts are what make the book so valuable. The problem is, that in
illustrating said concepts, Magriel made a surprising number of errors; some
small, others huge. A number of positions point the reader in an entirely
wrong direction in cases where other factors besides, for example,
duplication, weigh far more heavily. Others may disinform by ignoring the
doubling cube and/or Jacoby Rule. The idea of rolling out these positions is
to obtain a sharper sense of WHEN certain concepts may be correctly employed,
and when not. Weights and priorities according to position is the very
essence of the game of backgammon. Rollouts should simply make Magriel's
book all the more valuable.
Sander van Rijnswou
> illustrating said concepts, Magriel made a surprising number of errors; some
> small, others huge.
Could someone point out a few of these 'huge errors'?
(btw I own the book. Love it.)
Sander