Using clock: what would you do ?
Carlo Melzi
clocks, the following happened to me:
both of us players weren't very confident with the clocks.
However, my opponent was less confident than me.
It happened that my opponent finished his move and left the dice. I
told him that I needed the dice (with clocks only one pair of dice is
used) and he gave me forgetting to push the clock.
I rolled, and started thinking. It was a rather easy move, but I
started to take a look at several moves just because his time was
running.
I was having fun as he didn't realize what was happening.
After about 1 minute I started to feel stupid so I just made my move.
Do you consider me:
1) A good boy. Once your opponent makes an error, kill kill kill. I
should have been thinking as long as he didn't realize his time was
running (or lose the match)
2) A bastard. He was less experienced, I should have told him to push
the clock.
3) A inchoerent. The first or the second, but not this stupid ibryd
behavior
:-)
Looking forward to hearing your opinion.
Carlo Melzi
Jerri9465
>It happened that my opponent finished his move and left the dice. I
>told him that I needed the dice (with clocks only one pair of dice is
>used) and he gave me forgetting to push the clock.
>
>I rolled, and started thinking. It was a rather easy move, but I
>started to take a look at several moves just because his time was
>running.
>
>I was having fun as he didn't realize what was happening.
>
---------------------------------------------------------
Was this legal? If your opponent didn't hit the clock, maybe their turn wasn't
over and so you couldn't roll the dice. If you rolled a good number, maybe
your opponent could have made you re-roll.
Nick Wedd
When it happens to me, the first time my opponent does it, I say "clock"
as soon as it is clear he has forgotten. The second time, I just play
at my normal pace, and press the already-pressed clock when I would have
pressed it anyway. The third time, I am tempted to take some advantage
of my opponent's failure, by deliberately thinking for longer.
But Go players ought to be familiar with clocks. If backgammon is
usually played without them, then it seems appropriate to be more
forgiving.
Nick
In article <15b7bcdb.01072...@posting.google.com>, Carlo
Melzi <cam...@tin.it> writes
--
Nick Wedd
Patti Beadles
backgammon.
This was a SEMIFINAL match? The only good use of clocks that I've
ever heard was to cause early round matches to finish in a more
predictable timeframe, so that one slowpoke didn't hold up the whole
tournament. In the semifinals, that's no longer an issue.
Death to clocks in backgammon!
-Patti
--
Patti Beadles |
pat...@gammon.com | I have come to think that
http://www.gammon.com/ | maybe you are not usual.
or just yell, "Hey, Patti!" | That is likely a good thing!
Michael Crane
btw, I choose 2). . . and don't try it at MSO5 :-)
Michael
"Carlo Melzi" <cam...@tin.it> wrote in message
news:15b7bcdb.01072...@posting.google.com...
spurs
In this case I agree with Nick. One should always play as a true
sportsperson.
Jerri also has a point but one should consider whether giving a person the
option of refusal or acceptace by rolling when the opponents clock is
running is wise!
In short..... It is NOT your turn until your clock is running! When your
opponent hands you the dice his move is done but his turn is NOT..... Is
this covered in the rules?.... If the clock is running can one STILL
change one's move? Probably not i"d say... but still controversial!
DIRECTOR!
--
spurs
Roy Passfield @ Oxnard, California
http://www.dock.net/spurs
"Making a living is NOT the same as making a life"
(Roy Passfield, 1999)
"Nick Wedd" <ni...@maproom.co.uk> wrote in message
news:WhnM27BE...@maproom.demon.co.uk...
Carlo Melzi
know what the MSO is, I'm sorry.
However, I've never heard of any other Italian player called Carlo Melzi (we
are not that many in Italy), so that's interesting...
Carlo Melzi
"Michael Crane" <michael...@ntlworld.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:Xoh77.16623$Iz3.4...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
Bob Stringer
<cam...@tin.it> wrote:
>hmmmm... I play on FIBS, GamesGrid and NetGammon but unfortunately don't
>know what the MSO is, I'm sorry.
>
>However, I've never heard of any other Italian player called Carlo Melzi (we
>are not that many in Italy), so that's interesting...
Would you please look in a mirror and then let us know
whether you're *really* Carlo Melzi?
Thank you for your support.
Bob Stringer
--
To reply by e-mail, please replace
"NotHere" with "spamcop" in my address
Gregg Cattanach
Cup (Masters Jackpot event) at the Georgia State Championships will be on
clocks. The World Cup was also played with all matches on clocks.
As far as the original post, the player #2 erred by 'handing' the dice over
to player number two, and when he did, player #1 should have told him to hit
his clock. The dice shouldn't be handled by player #1 at all until #2 has
hit his clock. When player #2 doesn't pick up the dice and go on with his
turn, it should become obvious (eventually) to player #1 that he hasn't hit
his clock.
With the 2 main clock rule changes just instituted (6 minutes per match
point instead of 5, and no time penalties in the DMP game), the clocks serve
their purpose admirably well, (getting matches completed in a timely basis),
with an extremely tiny risk of any time penalties at all. The other big
advantage of clocks is that a person ends his turn with the dice still on
the table, which effectively ends disputes about what the roll 'was', (as
happens when a player rolls, moves quickly then picks up the dice, and
player #2 disagrees about the roll that he saw).
All of our weekly club matches are clocked, and since the new rules in
February, no time penalties have happened in any match.
--
Gregg Cattanach
Zox at GamesGrid, Zone
http://gateway.to/backgammon
gcattana...@prodigy.net
"Patti Beadles" <pat...@rahul.net> wrote in message
news:9jk7kt$ckf$1...@samba.rahul.net...
Jive Dadson
>
...
>
> With the 2 main clock rule changes just instituted (6 minutes per match
Why don't you use the clock on the DMP game? Turning off the clocks at
that score makes no sense to me. I think you will start doing it the
first time some bad sport does a sitspiel ("zit shpeel"). That used to
happen in chess games, and it was the reason the clocks were invented:
Some guy would simply sit, sit, and sit, and not play.
As you may know, the clock is an now an intergal part of the game of
chess, and being in time-trouble is something the player is responsible
for avoiding -- just as it is his responsibility to avoid blunders
moving his pieces. It's not considered a fault of the system or a Bad
Thing when someone loses on time. It's just part of the game. Using
too much time is just like leaving a piece in take. Don't do it!
I do think it would be good if there were some provision that tied the
amount of time budgeted to each player to the actual number of moves
played. In chess, you usually get so many minutes for the first 40
moves, then so many more minutes for the next 20, and so forth.
Backgammon players (a lazy lot) probably would not want to be burdened
with counting the moves. I've even heard of players objecting to the
opponent writing down a record of the game (!) -- something that's
mandatory in chess. However, you can get clocks with a move register on
them. Or you could do this: Start each player with, say, 20 minutes.
Then after each game, add another 5 or 8 minutes or whatever to each
clock.
I've played some informal matches with a clock, and I like it. It cuts
waaaaay down on the number of disagreements over what was rolled on the
dice. I have a friend who has the habit of playing his checkers and
then snapping the dice up real quick, before you can say, HEY WAIT A
SECOND! Of course, when I say he mis-read the dice and played a better
number than he actually rolled, you know who he is dead sure didn't see
the dice right. :-)
Just had an idea. Back to the DMP thing -- How about simply adding some
pre-arranged number of minutes, perhaps 15, to both clocks if you reach
DMP. That would make a lot more sense. If player A had 25 minutes
remaining, and player B had squandered all but one minute, then player A
would have 40 minutes for the last game, and player B would have 16.
Most importantly, the last game would not be totally without a time
control. I like that idea.
Jive
Gregg Cattanach
but no time penalties happen. Again, the point of the clock in backgammon
is NOT to force people into time pressure and have them play
speed-backgammon at the end of a match, but to merely make sure each
tournament match completes in a timely manner. If a match gets to DMP, and
one of the players starts taking 10 minutes per move, I'm sure the
tournament director would have some words with him. This likelihood of this
kind of misbehavior is nearly nil. (If you here about it, let me know).
Two other features of backgammon vs. chess is that in chess, you can plan
many moves ahead, but in backgammon this isn't possible. Also, there is a
built in delay every move in backgammon to shake, roll, let the dice stop
rolling & move the checkers. Fischer clocks could solve this, but few
tournament directors or players are keen to purchase these more expensive
clocks.
The no penalty DMP rule is the rule currently in place, and seems to be
working well.
Gregg
"Jive Dadson" <jda...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3B5E4968...@ix.netcom.com...
Patti Beadles
Gregg Cattanach <gcattana...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>Again, the point of the clock in backgammon
>is NOT to force people into time pressure and have them play
>speed-backgammon at the end of a match, but to merely make sure each
>tournament match completes in a timely manner.
So why do TDs use them in semifinal matches, where the time factor is
no longer significantly relevant?
The first time I was forced to play with a clock, there were no clocks
in the tournament UNTIL the quarterfinals. That seems to be exactly
the opposite of what might be useful.
-Patti
--
Patti Beadles |
pat...@gammon.com |
http://www.gammon.com/ |
or just yell, "Hey, Patti!" | Quisque comoedus est.
Donald Kahn
>While playing a rather important tournament semifinal, using the
>clocks, the following happened to me:
>
>both of us players weren't very confident with the clocks.
>However, my opponent was less confident than me.
>
>It happened that my opponent finished his move and left the dice. I
>told him that I needed the dice (with clocks only one pair of dice is
>used) and he gave me forgetting to push the clock.
>
I don't get it. Opponent "left the dice." You told him you "needed
the dice and he gave me".?????
Something wrong here. The way it is actually played is - A rolls and
makes his move and pushes his clock, at which time B picks up the dice
and makes his own double or roll.
You cannot pick up the dice before he pushes his clock, because that
is what signifies the end of his turn. No dispute possible.
dk
Gregg Cattanach
get home, and to make sure the players involved don't miss their planes. In
double elimination events especially, using the clocks from the beginning
can prevent matches that start at 2AM, or finals that don't get going until
4PM. I'm not familiar with other TD's procedures, but in Georgia, Dave is
using the clocks from the beginning in the Championship Division and the
Peach Cup.
It's really not so bad once you've tried it. Using a clock to play a
backgammon match isn't some kind of punishment :) In my experience, I
always have plenty of time to do pip counts and match equity calculations,
even if there are some long backgames in the match.
Gregg
"Patti Beadles" <pat...@rahul.net> wrote in message
news:9jn316$rq$1...@samba.rahul.net...
Daniel Murphy
>While playing a rather important tournament semifinal, using the
>clocks, the following happened to me:
>
>both of us players weren't very confident with the clocks.
>However, my opponent was less confident than me.
>
>It happened that my opponent finished his move and left the dice. I
>told him that I needed the dice (with clocks only one pair of dice is
>used) and he gave me forgetting to push the clock.
>
>I rolled, and started thinking. It was a rather easy move, but I
>started to take a look at several moves just because his time was
>running.
>
>I was having fun as he didn't realize what was happening.
>
>After about 1 minute I started to feel stupid so I just made my move.
At the Czech Open last week, some of us were discussing with
tournament director Michael Meyburg what a player should do when an
opponent forgets to hit the clock, so I will tell you what he said he
would do:
The first time his opponent forgot, he would remind him to push the
clock; the second time, he would remind him again and tell him there
would be no more reminders; the third time, he would let the clock
run.
That is what he himself would do, not what a player is required to do.
At another big tournament this year when an opponent forgot to hit the
clock, but properly left the dice on the table, a player let the clock
run for about a minute before his opponent realized his error and hit
the clock. And then the player picked up the dice from the table and
rolled.
However, in your case your opponent made two mistakes, and you also
made one.
Your opponent's first mistake was picking up the dice instead of
leaving them on the table (you say he "left the dice" but from you
description it sounds like he picked them up and put them in his cup;
otherwise you would not have had to ask for them). His second mistake
was forgetting to push the clock. Your mistake was rolling before your
opponent had ended his turn by pushing the clock.
Since you had to remind your opponent to return the dice to you (or to
the table), you might as well have also reminded him that he must
leave the dice on the table and push the clock to end his turn. If he
had left the dice on the table in the first place and you had sat
there without touching them, your opponent might have realized sooner
what the problem was.
If I had been your tournament director and had observed the situation
you described, I would not have hesitated to intervene and remind both
of you of the proper clock procedures.
Daniel Murphy
Denmark
Raccoon on FIBS/GamesGrid
Patti Beadles
>It's really not so bad once you've tried it.
I dislike it immensely, and I make 95% of my moves quite rapidly, so
I'm not likely to lose on time.
I would, however, be tempted to steer toward a complex position if I
knew that my opponent was running short on time... among other possible
tricks. I don't like turning BG into a game where that's yet another
angle to be shot.
-Patti
--
Patti Beadles |
pat...@gammon.com | For bipolar candle combustion,
http://www.gammon.com/ | there's no place like San
or just yell, "Hey, Patti!" | Francisco. - Guy Noir
neghe Onegu
Fischer clocks could solve this, but few tournament directors or
players are keen to purchase these more expensive
> clocks.
>
cost 10 $ more ???
Mogath3
>clock; the second time, he would remind him again and tell him there
>would be no more reminders; the third time, he would let the clock
>run.
>
I would let the clock run. If your opponent doesn't figure it out after the
first minute, then there's no hope. I have played chess for almost 25 years and
have been so used to using a clock, it's second nature. Never used one playing
backgammon, but wouldn't be a problem for me because I'm used to playing speed
chess as well and being that backgammon is about as fast paced as speed chess
it would present no problem, so *I'D* let the clock run as I'm under no
obligation to help my opponent and I would expect the same as well.
Regards,
Jeff
Gregg Cattanach
$10,000.
Gregg
"neghe Onegu" <artur...@yahoo.de> wrote in message
news:58b1388.01072...@posting.google.com...
Peter Backgren
In article <icI77.3787$GU5.59...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>,
gcattana...@prodigy.net says...
> It's really not so bad once you've tried it. Using a clock to play a
It can also be the tip of the iceberg that loses you the game. Once that
happens you'll hate clocks forever.
Real Life Situation:
Not backgammon, certain strategic game that take 8-12h each.
4 days in a row (8h sleep).
In the finals me and my partner created a final blow situation that
unfortunately took quite some time to create due to game mechanics
(moving twice in a row). We ended up running so low on time we had to
skip a secondary area completely. We are still famous for losing Italy
to the Turks while the rest of the board was in our hands. Oh well.
Ok, so I don't really hate clocks (except at work)... :-)
Eskimo
--
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//Remove absolutelynospam to mail directly.
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//In progress:Some kind of Arc
neghe Onegu
out of time in the 2000 Paris Semi Finals. As there was no possible
win for his opponent late in the bearoff he was forwarded and won the
final later.
With some second's less this could cause a loss if opponent has left
0,01% winning chances. With Fischer clocks you will not run out of
time then.
"Gregg Cattanach" <gcattana...@prodigy.net> wrote in message news:<9kc87.1490$hU.285...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>...