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Zengirl

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Apr 2, 2004, 6:01:41 AM4/2/04
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...of posts about this topic and I'm sure you're quite sick of them. I
guess I should have read them all first, but I suppose it's another
example of someone else randomly thinking the same thing. My boyfriend
won't play backgammon on the internet because for him it's so
obviously rigged and he gets bored of this. I am still undecided...
Live games just never seem to be so... ???

Zengirl.

Jason Darling

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Apr 2, 2004, 6:57:37 AM4/2/04
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Zengirl, as we all know a lot of the time yeah it's the dice and dice are
dice, strange and unpredictable but in answer to your question yes just
about any online game is crackable either by private individuals or by the
people who run the server.

Having written a pilot WSA application once for live midi jamming for
musicians and also being able to like play an ok game of gammon i think i
know what i'm talking about.

Again i tested for microsoft for zone gammon ( they came to me 'cause they
completely f***ed it up last time) and was able to roll any roll whilst
doing so. In fact the code to do that is in every gammon dll of every user
as standard issue to help debugging it's just that normally you cannot
access it.

If anyone thinks that every online game has always been fair then you're
living in fairy land believe me.

If people like that had like given me more than a lousy fucking mention on
some webpage i'd have shut it but games are rigged get used to it.

Real life dice are just as crazy though, me and my cousin played last night
for a few games and sure enough we both roll lots of jokers too :-)

But, i can't talk about the rest of the sick online rigged world. The best
way to get a fair game is to keep it shut or be completely offensive .

When i'm more coherent I'll make a better reply ZG - or you can wait for the
gnu fan club to reply or something.

Enjoy the game and leave the pro game to pros, and just have fun and you'll
love it, it's a beautiful game.

LETS FOCUS ON THAT, it's the most complicated game going, way beyond what a
program can ever understand or evaluate .
"Zengirl" <zen....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:fthq60phm8csr5stb...@4ax.com...

Grunty

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Apr 4, 2004, 10:20:31 AM4/4/04
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Zengirl <zen....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<fthq60phm8csr5stb...@4ax.com>...

I don't know how strong a player Zenboy is, but I agree with him,
specially regarding money play. However, take this for what it's
worth, personal experience and observation.
Anyway, you/he can try playing just for practice, or even for little
money, and see how you do.
TMG (www.truemoneygames.com) offers moneygames from $0.50 per point
and matches from $1. They charges no fee, but don't publish the
ratings.
GAMESGRID (www.gamesgrid.com) offers money play starting at even lower
amounts. They publish the ratings, but only for members, and
membership costs a fee.
Of course both sites offer the option of playing for fun as well.
I don't know about Dailygammon, where you said you're playing.
My recommendation: if you want to improve, you must give it a try.

Grunty.

Zengirl

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Apr 4, 2004, 11:56:07 AM4/4/04
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I do it for love not money. Seriously. I have no intention of playing
games and betting money on those games. (At the moment. I can't see my
attitude changing though..)

Z.

Gregg Cattanach

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Apr 4, 2004, 1:21:26 PM4/4/04
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"Zengirl" <zen....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:fthq60phm8csr5stb...@4ax.com...

He's wrong, everyone that thinks any bot or server is rigged it wrong and no
matter how many posts from players on the net or against a bot 'think' they
the dice are rigged, they are still wrong.

Real backgammon gives the illusion of control with the dice because you
actually get to shake and throw them. Let's say in a real game instead of
you rolling the dice a third person rolled the dice in a shoe box and then
announced the number you got each time. When you got unlucky, would you
suspect he was cheating (even if he wasn't) ? Similar experience with
on-line/bot dice.

It's time to get over it. You'll never get any better whining about the
dice and submitting completely unsubstantiated claims of rigged dice.

No one has EVER submitted ANY data showing that on-line or bot dice are
rigged or somehow non-random. If you have DATA to show us, do so; we're
completely bored with your stories of UNBELIEVABLE dice.

Gregg C.


Zengirl

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Apr 4, 2004, 5:35:48 PM4/4/04
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>He's wrong, everyone that thinks any bot or server is rigged it wrong and no
>matter how many posts from players on the net or against a bot 'think' they
>the dice are rigged, they are still wrong.
>
>Real backgammon gives the illusion of control with the dice because you
>actually get to shake and throw them. Let's say in a real game instead of
>you rolling the dice a third person rolled the dice in a shoe box and then
>announced the number you got each time. When you got unlucky, would you
>suspect he was cheating (even if he wasn't) ? Similar experience with
>on-line/bot dice.
>
>It's time to get over it. You'll never get any better whining about the
>dice and submitting completely unsubstantiated claims of rigged dice.
>
>No one has EVER submitted ANY data showing that on-line or bot dice are
>rigged or somehow non-random. If you have DATA to show us, do so; we're
>completely bored with your stories of UNBELIEVABLE dice.
>
>Gregg C.

Blimey Gregg, sorry if I caused offense and made you to be completely
bored. I have no substantiated fact or anything like that at all, and
will not be getting any. Just voicing an unsubstantiated opinion. I
can change my mind any time and be convinced by good argument. Not
when people get arsey though..!

Z.

Michael Sullivan

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Apr 5, 2004, 4:13:23 PM4/5/04
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Zengirl <zen....@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> Blimey Gregg, sorry if I caused offense and made you to be completely
> bored. I have no substantiated fact or anything like that at all, and
> will not be getting any. Just voicing an unsubstantiated opinion. I
> can change my mind any time and be convinced by good argument. Not
> when people get arsey though..!

Here's the problem. It's a very common misconception by weaker players
that the dice are unfair to them or rigged. Why? The reason better
players are better is that they understand more about how to plan for
various die rolls, so more of their rolls will look "lucky" than those
of a weaker player. There is also the fact that except for *huge* skill
differences in fairly long matches (like a 15+ pointer between a world
class player and a novice, or almost any match between a very good
player and a total beginner), the better player needs some luck to win,
just not as much as the weaker player does (in a game where both players
play equally skillfully, the winner is always the luckier player and by
quite a bit).

There's more that adds to this effect. People inherently have a poor
instinct for what randomness looks like. A statistician can easily spot
people trying to fake random data if those doing the faking aren't
*very* savvy about randomness. Random die rolls are *expected* to be
quite unfair to one side or another for extended periods of time (a
number of long matches, say) at some point in a very long series of
matches (like 100+). Sequences like 4 or 5 doubles in a row are nowhere
near as uncommon as people think, and in fact a large number (say 10000)
of rolls that *never* contains 3 or 4 doubles in a row is very unusual,
and in fact could be a very strong indication that the dice are *not*
random. Unless you've studied something about randomness, you don't
know what randomness looks like and will be inclined to believe a lot of
things about what should be expected that just ain't so.

Third: There's a psychological tendency to remember and be pained by
horrid luck much more so than you remember and are pleasured by good
luck. There are a ton of psychological studies done on investing and
gambling that show this kind of thing. In backgammon in particular,
weak players are often not good at recognizing which rolls are actually
the luckiest, and are skewed toward believing the opponent luckier in
the same way we all think we are above average drivers.

For this reason, the number of people who believe online dice are rigged
is huge, even at servers where a great deal of attention is paid to
checking on the randomness of their dice with regularity. What's really
happening is that the players on that server are just a whole lot better
than the person is used to playing! If you've played backgammon against
friends and family only and neither you nor anyone in your circle has
read a lot of books or played in major tournaments, or with real money
players. etc., then you are unlikely be as good as the average player on
gamesgrid or FIBS unless you are a real savant.

Even at dailygammon, where the average player is much weaker than at
FIBS or GG, the players over 1800 or so are better than you will ever be
if you've only played socially with other novice/social players and not
read books or dabbled in money or tournament play.

What this adds up to is a bunch of people who are pissed off that they
don't do well when they play on line and have a number of psychological
reasons to mistake that skill disparity for unfair dice.

When you see a dozen of these people a month, and half of them continue
to spout their theories in the face of regulars going to real trouble to
produce a huge amount of evidence against them, it's easy to get testy.

Can servers be hacked? Of course! Can people cheat online? Of course!
Does it happen all the time, even at sites where money is at stake? No.
The only even somewhat common cheats are hustling -- starting low-rating
accounts in an attempt to win money from unsuspecting weaker players --
and copying bots. If you aren't playing for money, who cares? You just
get to play a better opponent than their rating or actual skill would
indicate.


Michael

Ric

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Apr 5, 2004, 4:54:38 PM4/5/04
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Excellent explication, Michael.

Ric


"Michael Sullivan" <mic...@bcect.com> wrote in message
news:1gbs131.c0k01diaaobfN%mic...@bcect.com...

Zengirl

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Apr 5, 2004, 5:54:37 PM4/5/04
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A detailed and interesting post to read. Thank you for taking the time
to write it.

Z.

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