Law problem: is backgammon a gamble?
Roberto Gobbo
Hi there,
I'm very interested to know if someone of you know
if there are official sentence wich state that
bakgammon is NOT a gamble.
If so, please, tell me how I can have it!
My interest is coming from the not clear situation
in Italy. If backgammon is gambling, then money tournaments
are not allowed. Recently, a person (who I won't mention,
but some of you know him very well), is treathing to cause
problems to our new italian backgammon group.
This new group is called "Backgammon.it" and our aim
is to develop backgammon in Italy. To do so, we
started a new italian magazine, a new italian backgammon
site, a live backgammon amateur tour (no money!), and of course
a new italian championship.
The key is that we want to legalize this championship, wich consist
of 11 live tourneys with the final in Venice in June 1998 and for that
reason I'm asking about the existence of this sentence.
My personal opinion is that it is not gambling of course,
but you know, law is law.
Thanks in advance.
Roberto
Please, can you send me a copy via e-mail if you will answer to
this post? Thanks.
Hank Youngerman
go...@alpha.science.unitn.it (Roberto Gobbo) wrote:
>Thanks in advance.
>Roberto
At the risk of being somewhat whimsical - perhaps you might invite the
chief prosecutor to a game against the best player in Italy. If he
wins a match to 35, you'll all go to jail. I suspect that after about
5-10 points, he'd admit it's a game of skill.
Of course, the question is whether gambling on games of skill is a
crime.
Kevin D. McLeaster
Back in the 1980's I believe a major tounament promoter was tried in
Oregon, USA for violating state gambling law by conducting a Backgammon
Tournament. The outcome of the trial found that Backgammon Tournaments
were not gamhling because it was proved that skill was a element to the
game.
I believe the case was Barr vs. The State of Oregon.
Kevin D. McLeaster
Stephen Turner
The question is not really whether any other state has decided that
backgammon is not gambling, but what Italian law says about it. For example,
English & Welsh law says that in pubs (bars) you may place small bets on
games of pure skill (i.e., not including backgammon).
Of course, you could always take the case to the European court. At least
that way you're guaranteed five years' grace while it's decided. :)
--
Stephen Turner sr...@cam.ac.uk http://www.statslab.cam.ac.uk/~sret1/
Statistical Laboratory, 16 Mill Lane, Cambridge, CB2 1SB, England
"As always, it's considered good practice to temporarily disable any
virus detection software prior to installing new software." (Netscape)
PatriCarro
Some things never change. Not long ago, I was reading about the history
of chess. The author's claim is that chess began as a 4-player gambling
game in India (special dice determined which pieces could move), but the
state cracked down on gambling, so players had to get rid of the dice. It
turned out to still be a pretty good game without the dice; and over the
centuries it evolved into the two-player intellectual contest we know today.
PC
Mpls, MN
Hank Youngerman
pstr...@rocketmail.com wrote:
<snip>
>I guess the feds have cut some slack for the states, as a lottery surely
>is a "game of chance" and as such, would be prohibited under federal law
>absent some special exemption.
There's some question as to whether the federal government has the
power to regulate state lotteries. The Constitution provides that all
powers not specifically granted to the Federal government are reserved
to the states. However, since there is at least one multistate
lottery, and the Federal government has the power to regulate
interstate commerce, there presumably is such an exemption in place.
There are also certain laws against sending gambling materials through
the mail.
Clearly, though, the term "games of chance" offers itself to broad
definition. There is certainly skill in blackjack. For that matter,
there's skill in craps, in the sense that there are some bets with far
worse odds than others. So where is the dividing line between "game
of chance" and "game of skill?"
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Greycat Sharpclaw
Meow, all...
There is an allegation that flmas...@mindspring.com (Hank
Youngerman) wrote:
I assume that all quoted statements are US reference. Other countries
have their own laws. This thread has drifted, considering the
origional poster was concerned about tournaments in Italy, whose
courts will not be impressed by what the US Constitution says. :)
>pstr...@rocketmail.com wrote:
><snip>
>>I guess the feds have cut some slack for the states, as a lottery surely
>>is a "game of chance" and as such, would be prohibited under federal law
>>absent some special exemption.
>There's some question as to whether the federal government has the
>power to regulate state lotteries. The Constitution provides that all
>powers not specifically granted to the Federal government are reserved
>to the states.
But the courts have been very tolerant of federal claims to
juristiction.
The ploy of tying federal regulations to federal funds (the states and
other institutions can ignore - if they don't take the funds), while
making the regulated _depended_ on federal funds in various ways, is
common.
There are other ways congress has found to claim a federal
juristiction, through some precise or stretched interpretation. The
courts have _rarely_ overturned this claim.
>However, since there is at least one multistate
>lottery, and the Federal government has the power to regulate
>interstate commerce, there presumably is such an exemption in place.
I know of no US federal laws against gambling, save on federal lands.
Illegal gambling is, in general, violations of state laws _only_ in
the US. But then again, so is murder. Federal crimes are mostly (not
entirely) limited to those that are interstate, or believed to have
interstate implications (econonic crimes, for instance). Most
criminal law is state juristiction.
The exception for state-run lotteries are granted by the states to
themselves. This is why they can allow/prohibit other state lotteries
as they will.
>There are also certain laws against sending gambling materials through
>the mail.
But the mail is _clearly_ a federal juristiction, one that the states
themselves cannot regulate.
>Clearly, though, the term "games of chance" offers itself to broad
>definition. There is certainly skill in blackjack. For that matter,
>there's skill in craps, in the sense that there are some bets with far
>worse odds than others. So where is the dividing line between "game
>of chance" and "game of skill?"
The issue as to what "games of skill and chance" are "games of chance"
for gamboling law purposes is a matter of what the last court said, in
the main. Few laws are written so as to be unambiguous. Precidents
are your only guide, as they are what the next court will look for.
BTW, in some states, betting on games of skill is illegal, too. But
in _these_ cases, prizes are not considered betting wins, so tourneys
are (generally) legal.
Greycat
Gre...@idt.net.spamguard
Does anyone have any spare tunafish??
Remove "spamguard" from return address to reply
Tapio Palmroth
backgammon , and he thinks it is a game of skill :)
maybe there are more ?
tapio
Leo Bueno
Interesting definition. If the pivotal element is whether skill is
involved, then games like Black Jack and Poker are not "gambling"
eithier.
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Roberto Gobbo
leob...@bridge.net (Leo Bueno) wrote:
>Interesting definition. If the pivotal element is whether skill is
>involved, then games like Black Jack and Poker are not "gambling"
>eithier.
In italy, the definition is: "Gamble is when the aim of the game is
the money and there is very few skill involved".
Of course this definition is absolutely NOT clear, becuase the word
"very few skill" can be intepreted as you like.
R.G.