On February 23, 2023 at 2:31:10 PM UTC-7, Philippe Michel wrote:
> On 2023-02-17, MK <
mu...@compuplus.net> wrote:
>> here, while introducing the new concepts of SET's
>> and MET's, (Set Equity Tables and Match Equity
>> table), for checker play decisions.
> The "new concept of SET" has been known as
> Pascal's triangle for almost 400 years. But its
> use is limited to settle unfinished sets (history
> reports that Pascal discovered it when working
> out this problem for a gambler friend).
I don't think you are grasping the depth of what I'm
talking about but I do appreciate your participating
in the discussion and I will make twice the effort to
better explain in more detail.
Honestly, I had never heard of Pascal's triangle as I
have no interest in game/gambling theories beyond
backgammon. After reading about it, I can see that
I wasn't missing anything and that it doesn't apply to
my subject here.
It may be useful for binary decisions such as coin
tosses or cube actions but not for multiple-choice
decisions like checker moves.
> As far as play decisions go, this is irrelevant.
> Whatever the set score, your goal is to win the
> match you are playing.
This is not true at all. Even since the Jellyfish days,
adjusting one's checker play to the opponent's skill
level and score in simple (i.e. best of one) matches
has been talked about but never discussed in depth.
It's accepted that humans may be capable to doing
this, developing bots capable of the same seemed
beyond possible as ultimately complex.
Here, I'm going beyond scoring by simple matches
and proposing a "best of N" scoring system similar
to tennis. With this the challenge of developing bots
capable of it becomes exponentially more difficult
because it will require not a single-tier but a two-tier
adjusting system which is what I'm intruducing here
and I'll explain more further down.
> What make backgammon METs and their influence
> on play more complex is that points inside a match
> can be won by lots, not only one by one.
Cube actions aren't "complex" but the consequences
can be more drastic. A classic 5-point backgammon
match can't be shorter than 3 games (i.e. one player
winning 2 gammons and 1 single game vs. zero) but
even a 25-point gamblegammon match can be over
in just 1 game with the cube at 32 or a gammon and
the cube at 16. That's why I keep saying that the cube
magnifies luck (without increasing the so-called cube
skill but decreasing the checker skill).
Also, as I said before, I have no clear idea at all about
how bots can be made to adjust checker decisions. It
may be done through AI training for match play, which
would require immense amounts of computing power,
of through some magically ingenious system similar
to MET's. I personally don't think it can be done using
"tables" but I use the word to transition from a concept
and terminology that you are all familiar with to a new
concept that I don't know what words to use for. Once
anyone of you understand what I'm trying to explain,
feel free to make suggestions...
>> I believe that winning best of three or of five shorter
>> matches would be harder to win than a single longer
>> match, but I have no idea by how much, since there
>> have been no experiments done on the subject.
> ... in GNUbg there are some hints in the unbalanced
> jac050 and jac100 METs on how it may work out in
> modern backgammon.
They won't help at all since my subject here has nothing
to do with skill differences between players (which may
be discussed as a separate subject and/or in relation to
my subject here about "score differences").
> There are 3 ways to win a best of three contest: WW,
> WLW, LWW. If your winning chance in a single match
> is p, that amounts to p*p + p*(1-p)*p + (1-p)*p*p, or
> 3*p^2-2*p^3.
> A quick sanity check confirms that it is 0, 0.5 and 1 if
> p is 0, 0.5 and 1.
> The math for best of five is similar but a bit more complex.
Whether for best of three or for best of five, your math is
only good enough for simple, binary decisions based on
a single condition, such a cube action based on the equity
of a position but won't work for checker decisions when
each "p" can be the result of multiple choices.
> The jac100 tables suggests that a player 100 Elo stronger
> would win a 5 points match 56.1% of them time. For a best
> of 3 5-pointers that would imply a 59.1 winning rate.
>
> The same table gives 57.4%, 58.5% and 59.4% for a single
> 7-, 9- or 11-points match, so best of 3 5-pointers would be
> about as selective as a single 11-points match.
>
> The result may be slightly different if the skill difference is
> higher or lower or if the jac tables are not that accurate
> after all.
In addition that skill difference being irrelevant here, what
you are failing to see is that the weights of all 5-pointers in
a best of three or a best of five sets are not the same.
In your WW, WLW, LWW combinations, after the first win
(regardless of which side wins), the losing side must not
lose again! while the winning side can afford to lose next
and then win again.
I will concede that you guys understand gambling better
than I do but you don't understand bakgammon (not even
gamblegammon) as well as you understand gambling.
The "strategies" to maximize your chances of winning and
to minimize your chances of losing are not the same.
Thus, for the second 5-pointer in a best of three match,
you need two different strategies for the two sides, (as
implemented in bots using "tables" or however else).
I hope that I don't come accross as putting you down for
not understanding what I'm talking about and I hope that
you and others will try to continue this discussion as best
as you all can.
If it may make you all feel better, let me tell you that I don't
think even giants like mocky, micky, sticky can't wrap their
heads around this subject or even if they can understand it,
they can't apply it (i.e. adjust their checker plays according
to the score in a simple best of one match, let alone in a
best of three or best of five matches).
Currently we have no ways of settling such claims but we
can have them try their bests at it, put the results in a time
capsule, bury it and wait until we have "AI enough" bots to
verify. I'm willing to bet everything I own that the results
will prove that no gamblegammon giant had even a clue
about it as of the year 2023 of our good lord... ;)
MK