FIBS and Gridgammon comparisons?

[appleorange...@gmail.com]

I play on Fibs, hovering in upper 1700's to just over 1800. I often find it hard to get a match with similarly rated players. This is because most players have lower ratings, and there's usually just not that many people online (35+ bots and 60-80 people?). Most other online sites have a much lower competition, and people just wanna play 1 pointers.

I hear a lot about Gridgammon...I'm wondering a few things about it?

First, how many players are usually there?

Is it all experts? Being that membership is by invite only, is it meant to be exclusive to only very good players? or are there a wide range of rated players?

What would the GG equivalent rating be for an 1800 rated Fibs player? 1800 used be a big deal on Fibs, now it doesn't mean much.


thx

[Freeven]

On 5/2/2013 11:28 PM, appleorange...@gmail.com wrote:
> I play on Fibs, hovering in upper 1700's to just over 1800. I often find it hard to get a match with similarly rated players. This is because most players have lower ratings, and there's usually just not that many people online (35+ bots and 60-80 people?). Most other online sites have a much lower competition, and people just wanna play 1 pointers.
>
> I hear a lot about Gridgammon...I'm wondering a few things about it?
>
> First, how many players are usually there?

There are usually a couple of hundred people (no bots) on during the
(US) day. It drops off a bit at night, but not a lot. It's usually
pretty easy to get a game at all hours. 7-pointers seem to be the norm,
but you can probably find whatever you are looking for.

> Is it all experts? Being that membership is by invite only, is it meant to be exclusive to only very good players? or are there a wide range of rated players?

Skill ranges from beginner to world class and seems spread out pretty
evenly. I'm not sure why membership is by invitation only these days, or
what you need to do to get invited. I think Stick may be able to get you
an invitation if you ask him. Probably others can as well.

> What would the GG equivalent rating be for an 1800 rated Fibs player? 1800 used be a big deal on Fibs, now it doesn't mean much.

I haven't played on FIBS in several years, but it used to be fairly
comparable. Maybe someone else will comment on this.

[badgolferman]

Can't say anything about FIBS or Gridgammon, but have you tried Yahoo
Games? You can play anytime of the day against any level of
competition, but if you lose to lower rated players your rating will
plunge more than if you lose to similarly rated players. Currently my
Yahoo rating is 2138 but I don't know how that compares to the other
game forums.

[Walt]

On 5/2/2013 11:28 PM, appleorange...@gmail.com wrote:

Dorbel has this to say:

"The standard of play is much higher on GridGammon than it is on Fibs,
with a number of world class stars to be seen in action. If fibsters
play there, they can expect to have a rating about 140 points lower than
their normal fibs rating. Shouts isn't quite as lively and their
tournaments less interesting. They don't currently have a league.
Good server though."

http://www.fibsboard.com/international-internet-backgammon-federation/gridgammon/


I've never played on gridgammon, although I've been thinking about
giving it a try as I sometimes have trouble finding an appropriate
opponent on FIBS (I don't play bots, phone users, people with bad repbot
ratings, fenceposts, or a short list of players who have annoyed me in
previous matches)

Everyone I am familiar with who plays on gridgammon is a much better
player than I, but this is not necessarily a representative sample.

--
//Walt

[appleorange...@gmail.com]

I've also read more than once-that some people have a problem with the amount of personal info required to get a membership.

What is required, anyone know?

[crf]

I'd be interested in comparisons with other sites, too, not just for me, but for players with various interests. Folks in my club like FIBS, Safe Harbor, GammonSite, ... I haven't taken the time to investigate each one. Perhaps this has already been written up somewhere comparing features/prices/community?

[michae...@gmail.com]

I have played to almost every site that exists :-)
The Fibs server is very slow in transmitting the moves and on top of it people play VERY slowly, thinking and thinking at almost every move. Bots however play pretty fast
The Gridgammon server is much faster, people play at faster rate, but you have a different problem there, instead of thinking and thinking, MANY PLAYERS (NOT ALL) do and undo their moves multiple times checking all possible alternatives until they decide what to play.
Both FIBS and Gridgammon crash, but Gridgammon crashes much more frequently propably about twice daily.
Both have saved games, and records of your games on the PC. In addition Grid has online statistics.
On top level Grid concentrates world class players more than any other site. However at lower level its all average players and amateurs just like any other site.
The highest rating at Fibs is currently about 2200 (held by the bots) whereas the highest rating at Fibs by humans is about 2000. Grid has no bots (only humans) and the highest rating is around 2000 as well.My observation is that if you are high on the FIbs ladder you will more likely reach the same rating at the Grid, but if you are average or low you will more likely deviate by some 100 points less than FIBS.
Grid has strange policies for new members, someone has to propose you, and there is absolutely no known criteria of how they will decide on your application. Furthermore the admin is always away, never replies to messages, at least she never replied to any of my online ones.

I hope this comparison is useful.

By the way someone said something about Yahoo games, yes there might be about 500 players playing BG there at anytime, however I am a bit surprised that he hasn't yet realized how many cheaters there are over there.The Yahoo site is totally hacked if you are a serious player stay away from it.

[badgolferman]

michae...@gmail.com wrote:

>By the way someone said something about Yahoo games, yes there might
>be about 500 players playing BG there at anytime, however I am a bit
>surprised that he hasn't yet realized how many cheaters there are
>over there.The Yahoo site is totally hacked if you are a serious
>player stay away from it.

That was me. How is it hacked and how do people cheat? Please
enlighten me.

[michae...@gmail.com]

@ badgolferman

Usually by freezing your board while the clock is running.
What made me abandon yahoo for ever was when Julian Osterneck (his nick is expressty) a very good friend of mine at yahoo, proposed me to play one of the so called "best players". I played him a few matches, he seemed to me he was a cheater. But as you know yahoo doesn't save your games in any format, so I had no way to check if the guy was really a cheater or not.
Guess what, I videotaped 2 more matches with him.
Now guess what I discovered: Each and every move he made was generated by GNU. GNU error rate zero, doubling decisions supernatural, etc etc. The guy somehow linked GNU to yahoo to play for him. And he was playing extremely fast too...

If Julian is still playing at Yahoo ask him for more details. He knows most of the cheaters there, and he will advice you who to avoid.

Considering pros and cons the best site imo today is
http://www.playok.com/en/backgammon/
Use the new version that has no java.
To avoid cheaters always play at YOUR table, and set the time at about 3 minutes per point, so for a 5 pointer with doubling cube set it at 15 minutes. I usually play 11 pointers and I set it at 30 minutes.

[Michael Petch]

On 06/10/2013 11:23 AM, michae...@gmail.com wrote:
> Guess what, I videotaped 2 more matches with him.
> Now guess what I discovered: Each and every move he made was generated by GNU. GNU error rate zero, doubling decisions supernatural, etc etc. The guy somehow linked GNU to yahoo to play for him. And he was playing extremely fast too...

This isn't because Yahoo has been hacked. Automation tools can be made
for pretty much any site.

As for Yahoo the most famous program that automates play via a bot is
Backgammon Buddy which uses and older (I think 0.14.3) version of GNUBG.
I think it is sold for $20 (or at least was a few years ago).

As a GNUBG developer I became aware of it since it violates the GPL
license by not making the programs source code available.

[michae...@gmail.com]

> Automation tools can be made for pretty much any site.

And there is nothing the site owner can do about it?

Just for the information of the folks here the most usual cheat at playok is the following: you join a table set say at 11 points,with doubling cube, and 30 minutes timer. You then have to press 2 buttons. a)Sit b)start. Miliseconds before you press "b" the owner of the table changes the timer to 7 minutes. So there you get trapped to play an 11 pointer at impossible speed -and of course lose.
If you try playing the match you will notice the cheater plays like an amateur but faster than the fastest demon in hell :-)

What's your opinion about this M Petch? I mean is that some sort of automation tool again? And how could the developer at playok get rid of it?

[Bradley K. Sherman]

<michae...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Automation tools can be made for pretty much any site.
>
>And there is nothing the site owner can do about it?

How would the site owner know? There's no money involved,
so no motiviation to install expensive, and possibly flawed,
detection algorithms.

When I played on yahoo it would not have bothered me to
so much that my opponent was using a bot. What bothered
me were players who started playing extremely slowly
when they were losing so that you either had to abandon
the game or die of apoplexy.

--bks

[Michael Petch]

On 06/10/2013 2:45 PM, michae...@gmail.com wrote:
> And there is nothing the site owner can do about it?

No, thanks to the design of Windows OS, you can install hooks, scrape
the screen for information and feed it into any bot you desire and then
even simulate mouse and keyboard keystrokes to auto play. All without
the knowledge of the application.

In the case of Yahoo it is easier. No site can get rid of the sofwtare.
Some sites could analyze matches to detect cheating, and run the risk of
false positive.

If someone wants to cheat with a bot they can. You don't even need
special software. Some people are adept at transcribing matches into
GNUGB and XG to the point that they don't need special software. As they
play on an online site they can simply enter the moves/rolls into a bot,
get the result and make the appropriate play manually. Some peole are
very fast at this.

My solution is simple. I don't play Backgammon for money, so I don't
care if my opponents cheat with a bot.

[michae...@gmail.com]

>
>
>
> No, thanks to the design of Windows OS, you can install hooks, scrape
>
> the screen for information and feed it into any bot you desire and then
>
> even simulate mouse and keyboard keystrokes to auto play. All without
>
> the knowledge of the application.
>
>
>
> In the case of Yahoo it is easier. No site can get rid of the sofwtare.
>
> Some sites could analyze matches to detect cheating, and run the risk of
>
> false positive.
>
>
>
> If someone wants to cheat with a bot they can. You don't even need
>
> special software. Some people are adept at transcribing matches into
>
> GNUGB and XG to the point that they don't need special software. As they
>
> play on an online site they can simply enter the moves/rolls into a bot,
>
> get the result and make the appropriate play manually. Some peole are
>
> very fast at this.
>
>
>
> My solution is simple. I don't play Backgammon for money, so I don't
>
> care if my opponents cheat with a bot.

I don't play for money either, I play for the excitement of the game. However I don't like being cheated so I use BG software like GNU, and snowie to review my finished matches and spot possible cheaters.

Coming back to the point of the discussion -I mean comparing FIBS, GRID, and possibly other sites, I would like to point out that I 've never encountered a cheater of any kind at FIBS or Grid, but I did meet a lot at yahoo and some limited number on other sites regardless of the fact that I use the Windows OS on all of them...

[mu...@compuplus.net]

On Thursday, May 2, 2013 10:42:26 PM UTC-6, Freeven wrote:

> On 5/2/2013 11:28 PM, appleorange...@gmail.com wrote:

>> Is it all experts? Being that membership is by invite
>> only, is it meant to be exclusive to only very good
>> players? or are there a wide range of rated players?

> Skill ranges from beginner to world class and seems
> spread out pretty evenly. I'm not sure why membership
> is by invitation only these days, or what you need to
> do to get invited. I think Stick may be able to get you
> an invitation if you ask him. Probably others can as well.

Does this mean it's not a strictly gambling site with a
paid membership?

Does it mean that if Stick invited me to join, I might
actually get to play against Stick??

Maybe we can substitute that our face to face challenge
and even for Petch's "controlled test", (since Stick is
almost as good as the bots), that have never materialized.

It's local elections time and I'm running again against
the 5th generation, inbred corrupt scumbags... :( But
after that, (especially if I'm not elected again :), I
can make at least time to play online (if not face to
face), with the Sticks and Stones of the inbred BG world...

MK

[badgolferman]

Is it possible you could extend an invitation for GridGammon to me? I
would like to check it out.

[michae...@gmail.com]

> Is it possible you could extend an invitation for GridGammon to me? I
>
> would like to check it out.

The procedure to join Gridgammon is by sending an email to sup...@gridgammon.com or gabr...@gridgammon.com and at the same time have someone who KNOWS you and is already a member at Grid send another email asking them to accept your membership.

Not even one of the friends I KNOW and proposed to Gabriella ever got a reply....I also never got any reply to my messages despite the fact that I am on top 10%.

[badgolferman]

Yes, I figured as much. I have already sent a request to join but no
reply yet. Why would anyone want to join this extremely exclusive club
anyway?

[mu...@compuplus.net]

On Sunday, October 13, 2013 5:19:17 PM UTC-6, badgolferman wrote:

> Why would anyone want to join this extremely exclusive club anyway?

Why even ask the question, since you can't join anyway??

It's part of their creating an image for themselves, in
order to sell "backgammon hair growing creme", "backgammon
erection pill", etc. to the stupid masses who aspire to be
like them and make money gambling by playing backgammon...

Their checker skill argument, without continuity in the
game, is sterile of any strategy. (Although they also
contradict themselves by arguing that by playing "correctly"
you can make better use of the upcoming dice roll...:))

Their cube skill argument is plain bogus, based on formulas
with arbitrary constants that they pulled out of their asses,
which can be defied and defeated easily.

Even the scumbags who pose as benevolent bot developers who
offer their time and skills to the benefit of the humanity,
will not spare a fraction of their time to conduct a controlled
experiment that could debunk their concocted bullshit once for
all... ;)

Mk

[michae...@gmail.com]

Quite bold statements made above.

Why don’t you download the GNU (which is totally free) and play with it? If the formulas were really wrong then why is it playing so tough? If you think it is cheating, it even gives you the
option to use real dice and enter it the rolls manually.

There is one good reason to join the Grid: To watch world class players playing each other, or even play with them in a tourney. Also there is a "card" for each and every player showing his REAL full name, Country, statistics etc. So who know who is who.

I forgot to mention that some Grid members (me included) joined when another BG site closed down and transferred all it’s members to Grid.
However, It seems there is another way today to join the Grid, for details have a look here:
http://bgchampionship.com/
Deadline was 13 Sept 2013, but you can always wait for the next one.
It also explains why there is such a high concentration of strong players there.

[michae...@gmail.com]

Regarding the matter of Bot developers there is a guy at FIBS called "Phaedrus". He plays there personally, but he also developed 2 bots one is called "Phaedrusbot" and the other "MarianneBot". Just join FIBS, and chat with him... you will clear many of your misconceptions.

[Patti Beadles]

In article <57f3e5a7-9ee8-4dd0...@googlegroups.com>,

<michae...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Both FIBS and Gridgammon crash, but Gridgammon crashes much more
>frequently propably about twice daily.

For what it's worth, FIBS almost never crashes. I introduced some
instability a few weeks ago, and that lasted for a few days, but
outside of that the server generally crashes maybe once every 4-6
weeks on average. I've seen it run for 90 days without crashing.

-Patti
--
Patti Beadles, Oakland, CA |
pattib~pattib.org | All religions are equally
http://www.pattib.org/ | ludicrous, and should be ridiculed
http://stopshootingauto.com | as often as possible. C. Bond