Backgames
VSG
can anyone help me with the following questions regarding backgames please?
1.) Anybody know which are the 2 points to be made in your opponents home which
statistically provide the maximum hit opportunities?
(I previously thought it was the 1 and 2 points but Im not so sure now.)
2.) Does the answer to (1.)depend on the opponents experience/ability?
f.i. A novice would more than likely attempt to move his/her pieces in a.s.a.p,
whereas an experienced player might attempt to prime it in order to create
"crunching".
3.) Does the cube have an effect on the points used?
(ie if doubled, higher points to avoid gammon)
4.) Are there any top draw players who activily seek from outset to play a
backgame?
Ive only recently become aware of the power of such a tactic, and would like to
learn more about it..
Thank you in advance for your reply(s)
Alan Webb
Rodrigo Andrade
>1.) Anybody know which are the 2 points to be made in your opponents home
which
>statistically provide the maximum hit opportunities?
3 and 5; or 2 and 4.
>2.) Does the answer to (1.)depend on the opponents experience/ability?
Kind of. If you're playing a novice, anything will work. He'll just try to
bear in safely, and THAT's what a backgame try to avoid. An expert, as you
said, will try to make you break one of the anchors.
>3.) Does the cube have an effect on the points used?
Hmmmm... no. I don't think so. It does have an effect on the tming of the
game, though.
>4.) Are there any top draw players who activily seek from outset to play a
>backgame?
No. A backgame is a last resource, like the atomic bomb in World War 2. If a
positional game or a running game don't work, switch to the backgame.
>Ive only recently become aware of the power of such a tactic, and would
like to
>learn more about it..
Yep, backgames are very powerful weapons. However I don't fear them as much
as I should, as most people (myself included) don't know how to play them
properly. I only met this one guy on the last WOC tournament, who kicked my
butt really hard on a backgame. He taught me to think twice before hitting a
blot.
RODRIGO
KirkJ. Rupnik
>
> can anyone help me with the following questions regarding backgames please?
>
> statistically provide the maximum hit opportunities?
>
>
There are a number of articles regarding backgames archived
at http://www.bkgm.com/rgb/rgb.cgi?menu+strategybackgames .
Marc Gray listed a rough generalization of the
relative strengths of backgames:
What I think that you need to know is the linear ORDER of
effectiveness of a backgame. It is, in my humble opinion, as follows:
2-3 ... the best
1-3 ... almost as good
1-4 ... very good
2-4 ... pretty good
1-2 ... weak
3-4 ... poor
2-5 ... poor
Following up with TC Hathaway:
The problem with ace point backgames is your opponent can often leave
men on the bar point and thus be unable to play sixes, and very possibly
wreck your timing. When it is a 1,2 backgame, this applies to fives as
well. The good part is, of course, he can't play behind you.
But, generally speaking, you'll take whatever backgame you can get.
Usually by the time you're committed to it, there's not much time or
room for adjustment.
BTW one of the nice things about "one-pointers" is backgames are much
more playable: you never have to drop & you have no gammon worries.
TCH
Of course a lot of times, you don't have a lot of choice what points you
CAN make when forced into a backgame. You are correct in questioning
the
success of a 1,2 backgame from the explaination above.
> 2.) Does the answer to (1.)depend on the opponents
experience/ability?
>
> f.i. A novice would more than likely attempt to move his/her pieces in a.s.a.p,
> whereas an experienced player might attempt to prime it in order to create
> "crunching".
Obviously, backgames are all about timing. Generally, the player
defending against a backgame will try to wreck his oppenent's timing
by priming him.
> 3.) Does the cube have an effect on the points used?
>
> (ie if doubled, higher points to avoid gammon)
If you occupy higher points in your oppenent's homeboard, and/or the
points
are separated by 3 or more, then they tend to fall under the
classification
of holding games as opposed to backgames. In these situations, it is
much easier for the opponent to bear in without leaving blots. Again,
the question assumes you have a lot of control what points you occupy,
which
is rarely the case, unless you roll small doubles for instance. At any
rate, assuming a bakgame is unavoidable, stick with the strongest ones
(2-3,
1-3).
> 4.) Are there any top draw players who activily seek from outset to play a
> backgame?
>
> Ive only recently become aware of the power of such a tactic, and would like to
> learn more about it..
I couldn't possibly imagine that they ever do. It is much easier &
successful
to win forwards than to try to send everything into a backgame, as they
tend
to get very complicated (even given good timing) and their overall
winning
percentage is relatively low. And when you do lose, it's a gammon or
backgammon
often with you holding the cube at 2 or more. In Robertie's Advanced
Backgammon
Vol. 1, he relates a backgame to a goal-line stand (i.e. last ditch
effort to
save the game). If you are constantly putting yourself into that
position
willingly, you're going to a lose a LOT of games.
> Thank you in advance for your reply(s)
> Alan Webb
You're welcome. Hope this is helpful.
Kirk (Grignard on FIBS)
KirkJ. Rupnik
Gary Wong
> >1.) Anybody know which are the 2 points to be made in your opponents home
> >which statistically provide the maximum hit opportunities?
>
That's not true at all. In general, lower points potentially provide more
hitting opportunities (which seems intuitively obvious since your opponent
has more points to clear; every point to clear is one where a blot may
potentially be left). Giving a precise measure of "hit opportunities"
requires more information about the distribution of other chequers.
Cheers,
Gary.
--
Gary Wong, Department of Computer Science, University of Arizona
ga...@cs.arizona.edu http://www.cs.arizona.edu/~gary/
Jim Peplow
>can anyone help me with the following questions regarding backgames please?
>
>1.) Anybody know which are the 2 points to be made in your opponents home
which
>statistically provide the maximum hit opportunities?
>(I previously thought it was the 1 and 2 points but Im not so sure now.)
When playing the back game, depending on how far advanced the rest of my
checkers are, I generally prefer the 1-3 pts over the 1-2 pt.
>3.) Does the cube have an effect on the points used?
>(ie if doubled, higher points to avoid gammon)
>4.) Are there any top draw players who activily seek from outset to play a
>backgame?
My FAVORITE time to work on my back game is when my opponent is at match
point. Then you can try it and practice different things without the fear of
a gammon. Winning a nicely timed back game is very satisfying.
Also, as far as your opponent, generally try not to give them the extra guy
to make more points in your home board. If they have 2 guys back, you can
hit a 3rd. But if they have 3 back, try not to give him a 4th, which he can
use to make a 2nd pt.
Jim
Truth on GG
jpe...@bcag.org
Donald Kahn
<s00...@desire.wright.edu> wrote:
>VSG wrote:
>>
>> can anyone help me with the following questions regarding backgames please?
>>
>> 1.) Anybody know which are the 2 points to be made in your opponents home which
>> statistically provide the maximum hit opportunities?
>>
>> (I previously thought it was the 1 and 2 points but Im not so sure now.)
>>
>
>There are a number of articles regarding backgames archived
>at http://www.bkgm.com/rgb/rgb.cgi?menu+strategybackgames .
>
>Marc Gray listed a rough generalization of the
>relative strengths of backgames:
>
>What I think that you need to know is the linear ORDER of
>effectiveness of a backgame. It is, in my humble opinion, as follows:
>
>2-3 ... the best
>1-3 ... almost as good
>1-4 ... very good
>2-4 ... pretty good
>1-2 ... weak
>3-4 ... poor
>2-5 ... poor
>
Recording a mild difference of opinion. I don't like 1-4 very much,
while 3-4 is a terror to come in against, if you have any stuff on
your 9 and/or 10 points.
DK
Bob Hoey
Blood, written by Bruce Becker. Becker was not much of a player from all I
could tell and his advice in the book is very bad. One of his favorite things
was to play backgames. When I read his book, some 20 years ago, I tried to
pursue backgames a lot and learned my lesson. Backgames are great, if you know
when to seriously pursue them, but they are only a way of cutting your losses.
To seek to play backgames as an aggressive strategy is lunacy.
As for position, I prefer 2-4 as my favorite backgame position, followed by
2-3, 1 -3, 3-4,1-4 and 1-2 as the least desireable.
The key to backgames is timing. Knowing when to move aggressively to
establish a backgame is the most critical skill in my opinion. Too soon is a
bad thing and too late is disastrous.
Patti Beadles
>1.)Anybody know which are the 2 points to be made in your opponents home which
>statistically provide the maximum hit opportunities?
2-3, 1-3, 2-4, 1-4, and 1-2, in approximately that order.
>2.) Does the answer to (1.)depend on the opponents experience/ability?
No.
>3.) Does the cube have an effect on the points used?
No, not really. But your timing has an effect.
>4.) Are there any top draw players who activily seek from outset to play a
>backgame?
Hell no.
Back games are a last resort, and they're difficult to execute well.
You have to have extremely good timing to pull one off, and it's
pretty rare for that to happen.
-Patti
--
Patti Beadles |
pat...@netcom.com/pat...@gammon.com | You are sick. It's the kind of
http://www.gammon.com/ | sick that we all like, mind you,
or just yell, "Hey, Patti!" | but it is sick.
Hbrennan
>
> >1.)Anybody know which are the 2 points to be made in your opponents home which
> >statistically provide the maximum hit opportunities?
>
> 2-3, 1-3, 2-4, 1-4, and 1-2, in approximately that order.
>
>
1-2 is a lot better than people give it credit for... if it is well
timed. the reason it isn't favored is that the opponent normally has a
prime built out to the eight point in front of it, and gets to a point
where sixes can't be played, helping the primer's timing, and then to a
point where fives and sixes can't be played, further helping the
primer's timing.
the 2-3 backgame is favoured because almost all rolls must be played
when the primer is coming in. when this isn't true, the primer has had
to leave a gap in the prime, which enhances the odds of leaving an early
shot.
A well timed 1-2 backgame is better than the others, all other things
being equal, but are much harder to keep well timed... in summary.
Rodrigo Andrade
>establish a backgame is the most critical skill in my opinion. Too soon is
a
>bad thing and too late is disastrous.
I think the hardest part of a backgame is knowing when to run with your
anchors if you hadn't had a shot, or missed the ones you had.
Accepting suggestions... All I know about it is that I need to do as many
crossovers as possible to try to avoid the gammon.
RODRIGO
Chuck Bower
Donald Kahn <don...@alpin.or.at> wrote:
>On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:21:37 -0500, "KirkJ. Rupnik"
><s00...@desire.wright.edu> wrote:
>
>>VSG wrote:
>>>
>>> can anyone help me with the following questions regarding backgames please?
>>>
>>> 1.) Anybody know which are the 2 points to be made in your opponents home
>>> which statistically provide the maximum hit opportunities?
>>>
>>> (I previously thought it was the 1 and 2 points but Im not so sure now.)
>>>
>>
>>There are a number of articles regarding backgames archived
>>at http://www.bkgm.com/rgb/rgb.cgi?menu+strategybackgames .
>>
>>Marc Gray listed a rough generalization of the
>>relative strengths of backgames:
>>
>>What I think that you need to know is the linear ORDER of
>>effectiveness of a backgame. It is, in my humble opinion, as follows:
>>
>>2-3 ... the best
>>1-3 ... almost as good
>>1-4 ... very good
>>2-4 ... pretty good
>>1-2 ... weak
>>3-4 ... poor
>>2-5 ... poor
>>
(Donald finally got around to saying:)
>Recording a mild difference of opinion. I don't like 1-4 very much,
>while 3-4 is a terror to come in against, if you have any stuff on
>your 9 and/or 10 points.
I agree with Donald. I also think it is shaky to rank backgames
and to give a qualitative assignment (...very good, poor,...). It's
not that there necessarily isn't a ranking (if you define the conditions
well enough). My feeling has something to do with the current state
of backgammon research--the robots.
Now, even the ones that do generate unbiased (pseudo-)random numbers
don't like to play backgames. It's kinda like putting a cat in a closed
paper bag. It may pretend to like being there for a short time but
pretty quickly it goes into a frenzy trying to get out!
I think for backgames we are stuck in the dark ages (lighten up!
I'm half joking) when we had to depend on the experience of mere mortals.
Robots can do thousands of rollouts overnight. Humans are doing well
to play through 100 (and then they have to sleep!). Also, human skills
(and attitudes and prejudices and...) change with time, so if a person's
feeling about a back game has some memory from a while back when s/he
wasn't as good of a player, or from one time where the cube was at 64
in a $10 chouette and s/he got some bad rolls, or whatever, then maybe
that feeling is ill-founded.
I don't (nor does anyone) know the consensus opinion of strong
players as to the best and worst backgames. I believe the 2-3 has been
highly regarded for a couple of decades. The 1-3 is reasonably well-
liked. I think the 1-5 is almost universally unpopular. In between you
will probably get a LOT of varying opinions.
IMO, the first key to backgame play is to learn how to defend against
one. Next, learn how to play one (which is obviously not independent
from step 1). Finally, the seasoned player learns how NOT to play one!
(Aside from playing with words, what I mean is: since it is part of good
backgammon to maximize your equity, only go into backgames when they
are the best road to success. Often a better [non-backgame] path
will be preferable. Learn when backgames are the right choice. Don't just
play backgames for the fun of it unless you are willing to suffer some
monetary bruises.)
Chuck
bo...@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu
c_ray on FIBS
Donald Kahn
Bower) wrote:
>Chuck Bower wrote, inter alia:
> I don't (nor does anyone) know the consensus opinion of strong
>players as to the best and worst backgames. I believe the 2-3 has been
>highly regarded for a couple of decades. The 1-3 is reasonably well-
>liked. I think the 1-5 is almost universally unpopular. In between you
>will probably get a LOT of varying opinions.
>
> IMO, the first key to backgame play is to learn how to defend against
>one. Next, learn how to play one (which is obviously not independent
>from step 1). Finally, the seasoned player learns how NOT to play one!
>(Aside from playing with words, what I mean is: since it is part of good
>backgammon to maximize your equity, only go into backgames when they
>are the best road to success. Often a better [non-backgame] path
>will be preferable. Learn when backgames are the right choice. Don't just
>play backgames for the fun of it unless you are willing to suffer some
>monetary bruises.)
A good post, thanks. If I may be permitted a personal reminiscence:
My late father, who was a keen player (wasn't a h--- of lot else to do
as a Wall Street broker in the 30's) loved backgames. When he would
play me (and he never taught me anything) - I would make a point if I
could, hit his blots, or stack. He goes into a backgame and I don't
think I ever won a game from him. (I suppose we last played when I
was 14). Oh, what I would give to have him here now. Of course, he
would be 100 years old, and probably not too keen to play anymore.
(I finally got around to learning to play a little around 1971.)
Any good player takes a backgame only as a last resort. Too many
things can go wrong. And when it loses, it loses a gammon.
DK
Howie
Rodrigo Andrade wrote in message <75bi3v$19e$1...@news4.wt.net>...
Once you have committed to playing a backgame, it's too late to worry
about trying to avoid a gammon. You should try to maintain contact for
as long as possible. Even if your opponent is down to 2 or 3 pieces
left, if you can bar a couple of them, it becomes a close game. A late
hit will probably save the gammon even if you do lose.
That being said, I will break the front anchor to avoid having to crunch
my home board, but try to leave one piece there. I try to leave the
back anchor in place as long as possible, esp. on the ace point. I
would only break that when the opponent is down to his last 3-5 pieces,
or if it forces him to leave a blot when he is forced to hit. I only
move the last piece out to avoid a backgammon when my opponent will
almost certainly win with his next roll.