Rule:
1. Stacking as part of the mechanism
Winner:
...gets a full honest review of their game by the individual
participants on their game's BGG entry.
We can figure out voting, deadline and whatever else I'm forgetting
later. I gotta run. I just wanted to put it out there.
[inspired of course by Nick's contest. Thanks Nick!]
This could be really cool. Any thoughts?
Daniel
ps. Stop being dickheads. There are only so many abstract
enthusiasts in the world and even less places where they congregate.
Plus I don't want to have to dive into an 80 reply thread to find
stuff which relates to the original topic. It's annoying. If you're
gonna rant (like I currently am) at least add something in your post
which adds something to the topic. I'm not a moderator, babysitter,
fight resolver, etc... On the other hand, I love that this forum is
not moderated! Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing. Look at
wikileaks :). Anyhow... I gotta run... shit. :D
[might regret the ps, but pfff...]
Daniel
I'm in :)
christian
> Rule:
> 1. Stacking as part of the mechanism
Sounds good. Can't guarantee I'll come up with anything, but...
Ok, you will not vote for your own game, that's settled ;-)
That was easy :) Now if I can only get the other contestants not to vote
for their own games, we'll have a legitimate contest.
How do we eliminate ties? This seems a drawish game.
- nate
I suggest we split our 1.000000000 vote up along the real number
line. However there must be a singular maximum awarded to 1
contestant or your ballot becomes a duplicate of the "previous"
voter's ballot, what that may be. You wont know who the "previous"
voter is, until all the posts around your time of post have arrived in
this group.
- nate
Game Restrictions:
1. Stacking as part of the mechanism.
2. 2 players
3. Must be an Abstract aka no luck, hidden info, dexterity element
etc…
4. Must be a game not finished/released yet.
5. One entry per person
Allowances:
1. Concerning topology. Since we're not worried about an
implementation prize I say we crack this wide open. If it can't be
played in the iggc sandbox we can play it in google docs (or
somewhere else if someone has any suggestions) during the playing and
deciding phase.
Deadline:
Because of the holidays and because one is a date of significance to
me I'd like to make the deadline for the entry Feb 9th and the
deadline for the decision Feb 23rd. 3pm Berlin time for both dates.
All entrants into the contest are more than highly encouraged to vote.
Choosing a winner:
You can't vote for your own game. Ties will be resolved by voting
again between people tied for 1st. If there are still ties then… we
can fight about which game is better here (really this isn't my
expertise so I'm open to suggestions although I rather like this one
^_^ )
Prize:
Honest BGG full review of the winning game from each of the
participants.
> Rules and Conditions
>
> Game Restrictions:
> 1. Stacking as part of the mechanism.
> 2. 2 players
> 3. Must be an Abstract aka no luck, hidden info, dexterity element
> etc…
No sand timers. No donkey tails.
> 4. Must be a game not finished/released yet.
> 5. One entry per person
Hmmm. Sometimes you go to invent one game and you end up inventing two. If
they aren't minor variants of each other, and the inventor can't objectively
decide which is "better", I don't see the harm in entering them both.
> Allowances:
> 1. Concerning topology. Since we're not worried about an
> implementation prize I say we crack this wide open. If it can't be
> played in the iggc sandbox we can play it in google docs (or
> somewhere else if someone has any suggestions) during the playing and
> deciding phase.
Yes, if you can set up a generic stacking game. This might be a tough phase
if it's either hard to create the document or manipulate it. I'm thinking
of possibly using a hex board. The only limit on how wide to crack it open
is that it should be playable in real life.
> Deadline:
> Because of the holidays and because one is a date of significance to
> me I'd like to make the deadline for the entry Feb 9th and the
> deadline for the decision Feb 23rd. 3pm Berlin time for both dates.
Everything in abstract games happens on a geological time scale so I don't
see any point in rushing the contest. For a me a month of design effort can
easily slip by with nothing to show for it. I think we'll have more games
and better games if we make it three months. Winter just started, so we
could make it first day of Spring. Plus I haven't even really started yet.
I have to reach over and replace my Hexboard Havannah board with a Toys R Us
checkerboard, and I'm not quite ready to do that yet. By the way,
Christian, you have some nice boards on your website. I think I'll order
some at some point.
> Prize:
> Honest BGG full review of the winning game from each of the
> participants.
Well, I never go on bgg, but the contest seems like an interesting diversion
since I'm developing a renewed interest in stacking games anyway. They're
hard to represent on a computer screen though, unfortunately.
-Mark
Mark Steere Games
http://www.marksteeregames.com
I think that means that the order of stacked pieces is relevant?
Anyway, I thought about a fourth stacking game for my "A"-trilogy for
some time now. I ended up with some half-finished designs ... I'll try
to dig them out now.
Dieter
I got a nice mechanism for moving, but no decicion on the nature of
capture yet. So I can't breathe anything into it yet to give it life
and intent and make it an organism :)
Sure, but there is the notion of a prominent piece, other than in
Mancala games where you usually also have an amount of pieces sharing
one space, but no kind of immanent order.
> I got a nice mechanism for moving, but no decicion on the nature of
> capture yet.
So this could be a racing game ... ;)
> I ended up with some half-finished designs ... I'll try
> to dig them out now.
Jeez, don't put yourself out, Dieter. How about something fresh for the
contest?
> 4. Must be a game not finished/released yet.
Must not be a minor variation of an existing game from the same designer.
Instances of that would be disappointing, anti-climactic, totally deflating,
boring, and not worthy of a positive score.
Let's make this a symphony of fresh ideas. Not a potluck of lukewarm
rehashes.
Dieter,
I see no problem with pulling out unfinished work. If a contest can
motivate finishing something then I'm all for it.
About the stacking I guess you're right! I never thought of it that
way, but I suppose a stacking game would need to distinguish itself
from a game where there's a pool of something having an arbitrary
position such as a mancala game or a territorial majority.
**Any other thoughts on stacking definition? I wasn't expecting this.
Günter says hello btw. I work with him at the Spielwiese boardgames
cafe. I was really surprised to see his name on one of your design
pages at BGG!
I think you're right, Mark. Most likely, these old game zombies will
never work.
> I see no problem with pulling out unfinished work. If a contest can
> motivate finishing something then I'm all for it.
In the end it would be something new for the audience either way :)
> About the stacking I guess you're right! I never thought of it that
> way, but I suppose a stacking game would need to distinguish itself
> from a game where there's a pool of something having an arbitrary
> position such as a mancala game or a territorial majority.
Ok.
> **Any other thoughts on stacking definition? I wasn't expecting this.
No more constraints, please. An idea strikes me right now...
> Günter says hello btw. I work with him at the Spielwiese boardgames
> cafe. I was really surprised to see his name on one of your design
> pages at BGG!
Ahh, this is the good ol' Bambusspiele "tactic blue" box... so you
know Günter? :) It's a small world ... well, it's Berlin, am I right?
Dieter
> No more constraints, please.
Maybe even remove an existing constraint. Just a suggestion: Stacking
requires checkers, and checkers are designed to slide on checkerboards as
well as stack on them. To me, stacking games and sliding games with stacks
of height one are closely related. How about allowing games such as Cage,
Clobber, LOA, Konane, etc?
If that's getting too far away from stacking games, no problem. Just a
suggestion for broadening the range of possibilities.
Well, I forgot Pilare. In Pilare there are checkers and the mechanism
is closely related to Mancals's.
>
> > I got a nice mechanism for moving, but no decicion on the nature of
> > capture yet.
>
> So this could be a racing game ... ;)
Never thought of that :) ... but as it is I'm aiming at elimination
and 'soft finitude' as in, say, Focus. Good to have a plan B though.
Yes, no stacking would get it too far from stacking games I
feel ... ;-)
Come to think of it, have a look at Breakthrough ... the other
Breakthrough :)
http://mindsports.nl/index.php/the-pit/breakthrough-517
It's yet another 'stacking application'.
Come to think of it, it _is_ a race game :)
> Yes, no stacking would get it too far from stacking games I
> feel ... ;-)
Ok, no worries :)
It also includes Jenga, but apart from that, a nice collection of
(mainly abstract) stacking games.
Dieter
Nice list, here are some additions:
1. Bashni.
http://www.iggamecenter.com/info/en/bashni.html
2. Emergo.
http://www.iggamecenter.com/info/en/emergo.html
Bashni is the original stacking game based on Shashki (Russian
Checkers). Lasker in turn used the idea to make Lasca, which is the
same principle applied to Anglo-American Checkers.
Emergo is not a track but a pit - it does away with an initial
position, direction and promotion and uses an entering procedure that
fits the mechanism like a glove.
Since I invented Emergo, I would like to ask you to to consult
Benedikt Rosenau about these two. He's a leading expert on Bashni, and
column checkers variants in general.
3. Crossfire.
http://mindsports.nl/index.php/the-pit/crossfire-525
Not all that important, basically 'hexfocus', but if you read the
rules you'll find a significant difference: In Focus the 'ceiling' is
a stack of 5. In Crossfire the ceiling of a stack equals the number of
adjacent cells of the cell it occupies. This has far reaching
strategical consequences, since large stacks can be aimed at 'low
capacity' cells, redering large captures and numbers of reserves. It
provides fixed targets in a notoriously 'fluid' mechanism.
4. Explocus.
http://mindsports.nl/index.php/the-pit/explocus-527
Explocus was invented by dutch game designer Martin Medema. It is
probably the most capricious one of the bunch.
5. Breakthrough.
http://mindsports.nl/index.php/the-pit/breakthrough-517
A nice tactical race game based on an adaption of the 'explosion
mechanism' that also powers Explocus, and that in itself came from a
stacking game called 'Explosion' that was published in the English
"Games & Puzzles" magazine somewhere in the early to mid seventies.
christian
I forgot Pilare:
http://mindsports.nl/index.php/the-pit/pilare-547
Here's the intro at mindsports:
"Pilare is a board game designed by Basque game author Jorge Gómez
Arrausi. It won a proxime accessit award in the games creation contest
of Tona, 2005.
Arrausi is arguably the best human Lines of Action (LOA) player of the
world. He lives in Basuri near Bilbao. Pilare is a 'stacking game',
which resembles mancala games since pieces are sown in a mancala-like
manner. On the other hand, it has a certain affinity with other
elimination games that employ stacks or columns, like Focus and
Explocus."
> On Dec 24, 9:59 am, spielstein <spielst...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Here's a geeklist I created some years ago:
> > http://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/2246/stacking-games
>
> Nice list, here are some additions:
>
> 1. Bashni.
> 2. Emergo.
> 3. Crossfire.
> 4. Explocus.
> 5. Breakthrough.
> I forgot Pilare:
Bashni, Emergo, Crossfire and Pilare are already on the list, as are my own:
1. Dipole
http://www.marksteeregames.com/Dipole_rules.pdf
2. Byte
http://www.marksteeregames.com/Byte_rules.pdf
But not on the list are:
3. Colonnade
http://www.marksteeregames.com/Colonnade_rules.pdf
4. Impasse
http://www.marksteeregames.com/Impasse_rules.pdf
Well, I guess that about does it for existing stacking games. Glad we got
that out of the way ;D
not quite :)
Two of my favorite stacking games:
Chroma - which is based on the Four-Color Theorem
http://www.cameronius.com/games/chroma/
Boche - http://www.cameronius.com/games/boche/
I guess Akron would also be a stacking game:
http://www.cameronius.com/games/akron/
Do you know if anyone has written a book on stacking games? It's
looking pretty vast with fairly open parameters. Connection Games did
a good job of analyzing that genre of games. It would be great to see
someone undertake this behemoth.
We can accumulate them here and in Dieter's geeklist, if he would be
so kind. I read it rather sloppy obviously, not noticing that Bashni,
Emergo, Crossfire and Pilare were already in there :(
Anyway, there's a couple to follow, following the contest. My entry is
ready, came together nicely too. It's called "SOAR", but it'll be
after new year when I publish, because I want it to be accompanied by
Ed's applet, and he's away for the holidays.
> I read it rather sloppy obviously, not noticing that Bashni,
> Emergo, Crossfire and Pilare were already in there :(
No worries, Christian :D Just pulling your leg.
> My entry is ready,
Omg, what's the hurry? :) We've still got three months.
Better early than ever :)
>Daniel wrote:
>"I had a hunch that Christian could bust out 20 or so in a week ;P"
I knew it. Here it comes :D
So it does, why wait for the applet.
I set out to make a game in a select category: games of elimination
that start on an empty board, like the traditionals Nine Men's Morris,
Morabaraba and Yote, and the moderns Oust and Emergo. So here is the
new kid on the block: Soar.
http://mindsports.nl/index.php/the-pit/soar-574
> So here is the new kid on the block: Soar.
> http://mindsports.nl/index.php/the-pit/soar-574
Interesting game. Thanks Christian. I don't want to be overly critical,
but this is a contest and ultimately I will have to render a numeric rating
for Soar, so a little advanced explanation might be in order. I like the
elements of Soar - the Hexplode explode, the watermelon seed pinch, the
Dipole/Focus stack movement. But it all seems like a lot in one game. My
highest scores will probably go to games with less involved rule sets.
> ps. Stop being dickheads. There are only so many abstract
> enthusiasts in the world and even less places where they congregate.
> Plus I don't want to have to dive into an 80 reply thread to find
> stuff which relates to the original topic. It's annoying. If you're
> gonna rant (like I currently am) at least add something in your post
> which adds something to the topic. I'm not a moderator, babysitter,
> fight resolver, etc... On the other hand, I love that this forum is
> not moderated! Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing. Look at
> wikileaks :).
Bad luck Daniel.
But this is no longer a place where sensible abstract games
enthusiasts can gather. Stark Mere has killed it.
Everyone but him, his sugar daddy, and about 2 other
hangers-on have long ago left for r.g.c where there are genuine
debates and discussions.
Give it a try.
This forum is dying, if not dead.
Rules are always clear to the inventor :)
So what should a more advanced explanation cover? The explosion
mechanism comes from a game published by Games & Puzzles Magazine" in
the mid seventies. I also used a hexversion in Mu. 'Hexplode' is
unknown to me.
My problem is usually turning a mechanism into an organism, that is:
give it will and intent (Bill wouldn't know what I'm talking about,
sadly enough he couldn't resist farting all over the thread again). If
you let the rules sink in, you'll find it is _one_ organism, and
there's no separation between entering and movement. That's one thing
I aimed at.
The vote doesn't concern me all that much, I think it's a nice game
and once the applet is there, we may actually play it and find out for
sure :) .
My own vote only concerns the other entries (naturally - I don't think
we need a procedure for that).
A detail I didn't mention, you may have noticed, is that if the game
is reduced to one man against one (probably not a frequent occurence)
the game is won by the player who has 'the move', that is: is able to
get diagonal opposition.
The game has 'soft finitude': it will not terminate if both players
_aim_ at not terminating it, and _only_ then.
On Dec 19, 10:58 pm, markste...@gmail.com wrote:
> I love phases in games, but only if they arise
> naturally, not if they're forced by the rules. Like first you fill up the
> board, or add so many pieces to the board, and then the rules are different.
> This is an aesthetic problem for me.
It's only a problem if you can't get around it. It was precisely to
problem that presented itself in Soar.
I agree 100% with your considerations, so I let it sink in till it
solved itself in the most natural way: there are two stages in Soar,
one where a player has still one or more men in hand, and one where
that is no longer the case.
Moving (as opposed to entering) is allowed in both phases, so the
'division' is only rooted in the fact that both may at some point
have
entered all their men - the rules remain the same throughout.
> On Dec 25, 2:04 am, markste...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > Interesting game. Thanks Christian.
> > ...
> > ultimately I will have to render a numeric rating
>
> Rules are always clear to the inventor :)
> ...
> My problem is usually turning a mechanism into an organism, that is:
> give it will and intent (Bill wouldn't know what I'm talking about,
> sadly enough he couldn't resist farting all over the thread again).
It's bizarre. Bill Taylor has been repetitively declaring the death of
rec.games.abstract for almost two months now. It's a plot to destroy the
group by making everyone drowsy. GOD I FEEL SORRY FOR BILL TAYLOR'S
STUDENTS !!
> If you let the rules sink in, you'll find it is _one_
> organism, and there's no separation between entering
> and movement. That's one thing I aimed at.
And something I believe you succeeded at, Christian. My point was not that
I don't like your game. If there even was a point, it was that my vote will
be totally unbiased. If Bill Taylor enters a game I like more than yours,
I'll give it a higher rating.
> The vote doesn't concern me all that much,
Me neither. I know I have virtually no chance of winning, with my hunting
style :) All prey, small and large, are eluding me now.
> I think it's a nice game and once the applet is
> there, we may actually play it and find out for
> sure :) .
Yes, the gameplay certainly matters. I didn't have high hopes for Daniel's
game, Charisma, but playing it totally changed my mind.
One more tiny complaint about Soar, and you can get revenge on me when I
enter my game, assuming I get one in the next three months, which I'm
already working at. The maintaining of separate piles of like colored
stones...
Hope your 'inventor's block' ends in time :)
cya!
Daniel
>This forum is dying, if not dead.
This is the only completely off topic post on this 40 message thread,
so you're not making a very strong point.
>hangers-on have long ago left for r.g.c where there are genuine debates and discussions. Give it a try.
I'm an active poster on r.g.c. Give it a read. :P
> Bill Taylor wrote:
>
> >This forum is dying, if not dead.
> This is the only completely off topic post on this 40 message thread,
> so you're not making a very strong point.
lol, It's a ludicrous point. Bill Taylor, maven of mediocrity, has deemed
irrelevant Christian Freeling, Dieter Stein, me, and other world renowned
abstract game designers who may yet join your contest. Not to mention
budding new designers such as yourself, Corey Clark (who has promised to
submit a game), and Michael Howe. We're all "dead" to Bill Taylor, lol, who
teaches a math appreciation requirement to drama majors.
> >hangers-on have long ago left for r.g.c where there are genuine debates and discussions. Give it a try.
>
> I'm an active poster on r.g.c. Give it a read. :P
LOL
> Hope your 'inventor's block' ends in time :)
Let's just say I'm glad I requested the extension. The only thing I feel
about abstract game design right now is that I need to take a break for at
least a week or two.
Rive, believe it or not, was a huge effort. At least 1/2 hour every day for
well over a month - gargantuan by my admittedly lax standards. What made
Rive especially work-like was not just the usual "It's all been done
already" nagging doubt, but the additional "the gameplay certainly won't be
as good as Oust's". I'm all about architecture, not popularity, but I got a
little spoiled with Oust. It was my first game where the gameplay
compliments outpaced the architecture compliments (of which there have been
many as well for Oust).
In any case, I'm just not ready to jump headlong into another major design
effort, but the whole Winter should be enough time to figure out a new
design. Otherwise, carry on without my entry.
About 'Soar', I was lucky to have some leftover pieces of wreckage
floating around to work with, and a fairly specific target. Not
anything revolutionary in terms of mechanics, but a nice fit. The
process is so fresh in my memory that I can give a fairly accurate
account of how it went.
For what it's worth (yes, go ahead Bill):
http://mindsports.nl/index.php/how-i-invented-games-and-why-not/late-arrivals-a-final-whispers#soar
I'd like to enter Stax: http://www.cameronius.com/games/stax
Cameron
P.S. Thanks for pointing out this competition Mark!
Quote:
"The twelve pieces represent all symmetric arrangements of 0 to 6
pointers within six sides. There are another two asymmetric
arrangements of three pointers; these were not included for aesthetic
reasons and to keep the number of pieces managable."
Aestetics might reason towards completeness I feel, but the 'a-
symmetry' comes in handy as an argument against them and the
'managable number' may indeed enhance game play. I assume you've
tested that.
The complete set, including the two asymmetric 3's, is again a subset
of the "China Labyrinth" set:
http://mindsports.nl/index.php/puzzles/tilings/china-labyrinth/
I'm very happy to see such a renown designer take part, welcome :)
christian
> I'd like to enter Stax: http://www.cameronius.com/games/stax
Excellent! Lovely game. Thanks, Cameron.
> P.S. Thanks for pointing out this competition Mark!
You're welcome :) Christian Freeling, Dieter Stein and me had already
signed up. What would it look like if we kept the contest a secret from the
world renowned Cameron Browne? In the spirit of fairness, if there's anyone
else who should be notified, let's get them notified.
Lo and behold rec.games.abstract is starting to look like an abstract games
forum for the first time in its punctuated evolution.
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> I've posted about the contest at Little Golem's Blog:
Ok, excellent. I've notified a couple of designers directly, since they
might not monitor the forums.
There was some discussion offline about the valid concern of inviting people
to the rec.games.abstract unmoderated barnyard forum. But I think decorum
suggests an invitation sometimes, even if the invitee is unlikely to attend.
When only certain people are invited, the uninvited are expressly excluded.
Kris Burm, you're invited.
It's funny because I'm in a total slump right now and my prospects for this
contest aren't good at all. But I'm loving this confluence of abstract game
designers.
-Mark
Mark Steere Games
http://www.marksteeregames.com