HELP! - Getting killed in loose games.
Lion
have run into an odd problem. I can consistently beat the game when 3
or 4 people see the flop, but have been losing when it turns really
lose with 6 or 7 people seeing every flop.
I'm pretty sure the problem is my post-flop play. Assuming that
there will be a single bet on the flop, what do I need to call?
Should I call the one bet with bottom pair, hoping to hit trips or two
pair on the turn? Should I raise with top pair top kicker? Raising
is unlikely to limit the field much, and its very rare for one pair to
win. If I hit bottom two pair in a board thats full of draws like 7h
8h 2d, should I bet/raise/call/fold?
One of the biggest problems I've been having is that I find it a lot
harder to read an individual hand in cases like this. As in the
example above, with 7h 8h 2d, I don't know when to let my hand go. If
the turn is a 5c and someone bets (who just came to the table), should
I fold?
Last question, I have pockets 9s and limp in to the flop with 6
other callers. Flop is Ac 9c 3d. I raise, 4 people call. Turn is a
spade. Different guy bets. Should I let the hand go here?
Graham Ribchester
"Lion" <ap...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:b5d27558.03060...@posting.google.com...
> Last question, I have pockets 9s and limp in to the flop with 6
> other callers. Flop is Ac 9c 3d. I raise, 4 people call. Turn is a
> spade. Different guy bets. Should I let the hand go here?
I will assume you mean club, no, I would raise, trips are likely still good
and from experience when I do that myself, I earn bets.
Ribs
pille
outs to improve your hand. To think about laying down this hand show that
you need to work on some basics. Read a good low-limit book from Krieger.
Money well spend.
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Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com
robert.miller
in it if you're uncomfortable with the risk.
If you're up against 6 or 7 people nearly every flop, then you have to play
hands like suited connectors or even unsuited connectors. You can play them
in early position if it's not likely to be raised. But if there is any
aggressive preflop raising, you have to play tight in early position or it
will bleed you dry. You can even get away with medium unsuited connectors
in early position if there's not much raising.
Of course you will play big pairs, but remember these go down in value. You
may even have to muck AA if there are lots of callers and action on the flop
and you didn't get a set. You can play any pocket pair even in early
position if the table is very passive preflop. You are, of course, looking
to make a set on the flop. If you don't, you must consider the odds of
making a set by the river and the size of the pot and the chances it will be
good if you make it. I tend not to worry about oversets but they are costly
when you lose to one. If you are worried about that, don't play lower than
77 in early position.
After the flop, if you've got bottom pair, the odds are 11 to 1 against you
hitting your trips by the river. Your odds are 4 to 1 to make trips or two
pair. Clearly, you have the pot odds for that draw, but will your hand be
good if it hits?
If your cards are small, you could very well lose to a bigger two pair,
trips, or boat if you hit your hand. If you are playing suited connectors
or one gappers, then two pair will get you into trouble against straights.
If the flop had two of a suit and the turn or river puts a third up, you're
probably up against a flush in that sort of game as players will play any
suited cards and go to the river for their flush.
So to recap, in that type of game, you generally want to play:
pocket pairs: no set on the flop- dump to any bet (unless it's an overpair-
someone almost ALWAYS has top pair)
medium and big suited connectors (>78s): dump on flop unless you get an OE
draw or a huge hit (bet aggressively with two pair or trips). If you flop
or turn a flush, be highly aggressive with it or you might draw a fourth of
the suit which beats you.
medium and big unsuited connectors (>89o): dump unless you flop an OE draw,
two pair, or trips. Bet very aggressively if you do. You need 11 to 1
pot odds to call with a gutshot with a rainbow board, 14 to 1 to call with a
two suited board. If the board pairs or three suits on the turn, dump your
draw to any bet
suited one gappers: same as suited connectors
suited Aces: If you flop an A with a weak kicker, bet it but you will fold
to a raise and reraise. If you flop a flush draw, check and call to river
for the flush.
suited K9+: Same as above.
two big cards at least one being a K or A: Bet out top pair every time.
BET OUT AND CAP ANY FLOPPED STRAIGHTS on the flop unless there is a suited
board. You have to make people PAY to counterfeit you, fill up, or flush
out.
Stay away from small cards- they are more trouble then they are worth.
Just my two cents. (That might be all you're left with :) )
"Lion" <ap...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:b5d27558.03060...@posting.google.com...
John Clearlake
I dont know why you seem so surprised??
This is part of the game, their are many, many wild
No -Foldum games spread from coast to coast,
and all the skill in the world will not beat them!
You have to change games, and play in a more civilized
game, or just take you chances like anyone else in a
Crap Shoot, which it is. "Recognize IT" for what it is!!
The brand is not Poker, in the true sense of the word,
its flat out Crazy Gambling!, and you will need lots of
luck to overcome it. If ace's hold up only 1/3 of the time,
in a sane game, what do you think your good starting
hands can expect!!,, Get real, and gamble or Change
Games! its as easy as that!, but dont think for a second
that your good play can overcome this kind of shoot-out.
You have to choose!! and stop trying to beat something
that no one can.
take care & make-up your mind what you want to do?
JCL
"Lion" <ap...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:b5d27558.03060...@posting.google.com...
robert.miller
> other callers. Flop is Ac 9c 3d. I raise, 4 people call. Turn is a
> spade. Different guy bets. Should I let the hand go here?
Hell no you don't fold. You should RAISE. Sounds to me like he turned Aces
up or (even better) a smaller set. What are you afraid of, AA? Was the turn
bigger than a 9? A wheel card?
Even if you think he might have drawn a wheel on the turn, you've still got
outs on the river and there's lots of money in that pot. A raise will
punish the club draws.
I don't see much danger for you here. A bit cliched but: If you lose with
a set and don't lose a lot of money, you played it wrong.
Rich
<jonthe...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Dear Lion
>I dont know why you seem so surprised??
>This is part of the game, their are many, many wild
>No -Foldum games spread from coast to coast,
>and all the skill in the world will not beat them!
That's bullshit. People beat these kinds of games every day. You won't
win ever session but you can definitely profit over the long run if
you play them right.
You need to adjust, though. If you play the same way you would at a
tough table you aren't going to win.
Rich
Rich
>Good advive. Most likely you are still good. If not, you have a lot of
>outs to improve your hand. To think about laying down this hand show that
>you need to work on some basics. Read a good low-limit book from Krieger.
>Money well spend.
Yes, and the Jones book. His advice is to play a set fast in a game
like this. Yes, sometimes someone will show a higher set or a flush.
etc. But many times a set is good enough to win.
Rich
Gary Carson
<robert...@insightbb.com> wrote:
>That sort of game has high variance. You might want to decide not to
play
>in it if you're uncomfortable with the risk.
>
High variance only means high risk if you play in bad games.
Irish Mike
want to consistently win money in loose aggressive HE games - play like a
wimp.
Irish Mike
"Lion" <ap...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:b5d27558.03060...@posting.google.com...
Gary Carson
> On 08 Jun 2003 17:44:47 GMT, "pille" <anon...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >Good advive. Most likely you are still good. If not, you have a lot of
> >outs to improve your hand. To think about laying down this hand show that
> >you need to work on some basics. Read a good low-limit book from Krieger.
> >Money well spend.
>
> Yes, and the Jones book. His advice is to play a set fast in a game
> like this.
Really? On the turn when 3 to a flush hits? He says play a set fast in
that situation?
I'm pretty sure he says play it very aggresively on the flop, even if 3 to
a flush has hit. Even if someone has a flush you aren't that far behind,
and if you have enough callers you're a money favorite anyway.
On the turn, espicially if you were aggresive on the flop, things are a
little different. Whether to raise or not depends on a lot of different
things on the turn, it's not automatic. Of course you aren't gonna throw
it away.
robert.miller
Can you explain? Not quite sure what you mean. What is a "bad game"
Gary Carson
> > High variance only means high risk if you play in bad games.
>
> Can you explain? Not quite sure what you mean. What is a "bad game"
Think about it.
An example of a bad game where high variance probably means high risk
would be a fairly tight game that was also very aggresive.
btw, your statement about big pairs losing value in loose games is
also wrong. You should stick to ranting about the great
left-wing-consipiracy.
deznice76
responses trying to prove how superior you are in this field. Con
gratulations Gary!!!!! You can make 3 bb an hout in a .50-1.00 game. For
someone who wrote a book for new low limit players you give yourself
horrible publicity.
noiseboy
loose and very loose games. It has helped me far more than any other book
in loose games.
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deznice76
library if you must. don't give him a dime
noiseboy
noiseboy
should fit or fold; however, sometimes loose players won't really have
anything, since their standards are so low, so sometimes you have to be
tough and call them down. Also when the pot gets huge, sometimes you have
to hang in there with relatively few outs, as long as you are almost
certain that you will win if you hit your hand and you are getting implied
odds good enough to make you a money favorite.
There definitely are times to be wimpy, however, especially when the pot
is capped before it even gets to you.
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