Dutch Boyd blog comments -- short stack play
Chris Farmer
I'm not sure how or why I ended up at his blog, but I have a question on
what people think of his suggestion to sit and wait for the blinds when
you have a very short stack. Here's his quote:
<dutch>
So here's a little tourney strategy... I'm now at a point where I've got
less than 2x the BB. So basically if I push it's pretty close to 100%
that I'm going to get called. This situation comes up all the time in
tournaments, and I think it's a pretty big mistake to wait for a hand
like KTo and push. I think it's far better to just wait for the BB and
hope for the best. The thing to remember is that in spots like this,
even if you double up, you're probably going to still be in a must-call
situation when that BB hits you. Unless I get a pair over 88s or AK or
AQ, I'm usually just going to wait for the BB and take a random hand
against hopefully overcards.
</dutch>
I can almost see his point, but I think I disagree. If he waits until
the blinds, he says he hopes to be against overcards for a reasonable
chance, but he's assuming just one opponent. It's pretty likely that
there will be more than one opponent, especially when his stack doesn't
present a threat to any other stacks. If he were to play all-in
earlier, he could probably more easily isolate himself against a single
player and get the better odds he wants with a hand that's at least
better than average. Maybe his move makes more sense after you're in
the money in a tournament, don't figure to win, and you hope others will
go out before the blinds hit you, but he doesn't state this.
I ask this because I frequently find myself in this situation near the
end of the weekly local tournaments... the blinds are high relative to
the average stack, there are a few people with ~5x BB, but most have ~1x
BB. If I find myself getting near the blind, I'm happy to go in with a
suited king or similar slightly better than average slop. (The payouts
aren't substantially different until the top 3 places, so I don't mind
busting out in 8th versus 5th so much, if I'm giving myself the best
shot to get more chips.) Most other small stacks won't call without a
superb hand since they're hoping I bust out, so I find it's usually
heads-up with a big stack who raised or the guy in the BB who calls for
the odds. I think my record in this situation is pretty poor, though.
Is Dutch's strategy the way to go here?
Any suggestions?
thanks,
Chris
richiematt
On Apr 19 2005 2:40 AM, Chris Farmer wrote:
> I'm not sure how or why I ended up at his blog, but I have a question on
> what people think of his suggestion to sit and wait for the blinds when
> you have a very short stack. Here's his quote:
>
>
> So here's a little tourney strategy... I'm now at a point where I've got
> less than 2x the BB. So basically if I push it's pretty close to 100%
> that I'm going to get called. This situation comes up all the time in
> tournaments, and I think it's a pretty big mistake to wait for a hand
> like KTo and push. I think it's far better to just wait for the BB and
> hope for the best. The thing to remember is that in spots like this,
> even if you double up, you're probably going to still be in a must-call
> situation when that BB hits you. Unless I get a pair over 88s or AK or
> AQ, I'm usually just going to wait for the BB and take a random hand
> against hopefully overcards.
>
>
I agree with Dutch, and here's why. The biggest mistake short stack's make is
going all-in UTG because they think, 'oh I'm in the BB next and I'll have to
play anything I get'.
I see UTG or UTG +1 short stack all-ins get crushed. First of all the BB will
call (or should) just on the pot odds. Then every player will get a shot at
calling.
What I do is bet only good hands- AXs or A10o and above plus all pairs and
suited connectors 67 and above. If I don't get one I wait.
When you are in the BB you will bet last, a big advantage when you are short
stacked.
Another thing and this has happened to me many times, a big stack in the cutoff
or button will see you in BB and try and steal- sometimes with crap. Everyone
folds and you call (at worse you a 2 to 1 dog). Ends up I'm the favorite with K
high!
Good post Chris,
Richie
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dennis smythe
"Chris Farmer" <cfa...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
news:iJ19e.451$JB....@tornado.socal.rr.com...
>
> I can almost see his point, but I think I disagree. If he waits until the
> blinds, he says he hopes to be against overcards for a reasonable chance,
> but he's assuming just one opponent. It's pretty likely that there will
> be more than one opponent, especially when his stack doesn't present a
> threat to any other stacks. If he were to play all-in earlier, he could
> probably more easily isolate himself against a single player and get the
> better odds he wants with a hand that's at least better than average.
What he says is nothing new, it's been said a hundred times before. I don't
think that what you say regards number of players really has any relevance
if you've let yourself get down to 2xBB, people will just see it has a
desperation raise from anywhere out of the blinds and treat it as if it was
just the one bet to see the flop. It won't knock anybody out who would call
if it were only the one bet and if you play it from the blinds you might
treble or quadruple up depending on how many original callers there were.
The only reason someone would get down to having 2xBB in front of them is
because they lost a pot on the previous hand so they are probably in the
mood to gamble it up on their next BB. You will probably be better off
winning against 3 callers and quadrupling up than having to get lucky twice
by going all-in again on the next round, would you really care about being
knocked out the tournament? Your effectively out with just 2xBB in front of
you anyway.
Things may be different in a 1 table sit'n'go if the blinds have become so
high that eveyone apart from the chip leader has become short stacked and
you have a shot for second place but the blinds are not likely to have such
an effect in a big multi-table tourney.
UKPaul
the situation I found myself in last night. Down to 5 players, the BB
forced me all in with a nothing hand. There are 4 callers.
I flop two pair, it holds up and my stack gets a 4* increase. It was enough
to allow me to play a few hands and ended up winning the tourney. Staggering
luck certainly, but the fact I was so insignificantly stacked meant that
no-one felt threatened, and the more callers I get, the better odds I get.
Pushing with a semi-decent hand earlier (as in 2 or 3*BB stack size) may
have put me one on one against another semi-decent hand, with lesser odds.
"Chris Farmer" <cfa...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
news:iJ19e.451$JB....@tornado.socal.rr.com...
>
Toni Virta
> <dutch>
> Unless I get a pair over 88s...
If *I* ever get suited pair of eights (or better), I am not going to
play the hand. Period. The risk of running against five (or more)
aces just seems too likely.
TVirta
nshe...@yahoo.com
If you raise with 2x BB, especially in early position, you'll probably
end up being heads up against a good hand, or in a 3 to 4-way pot
(which is bad because you're probably a huge dog (e.g. you have A4o
against 88 and AJ or you have 67s against 99 and KQs). When you wait
until its your BB, 1 of 2 things will usually happen. Either 1.
players in late position will be aggressive against you and you can get
all-in as a 60/40 dog (e.g. you have 68s against A3o), or 2. players
will be excessively tight allowing you to get heads up with a random
hand in the SB, or it might even be folded to you (when the button and
SB look down to see 25o).
One last thought - the best opportunity to get your money in is when
there's dead money in the pot. For example, lets say UTG limps, 2nd
seat limps, then mid position with a big stack raises all-in. You have
just a few more chips then would match the limpers. This is a great
opportunity to call with almost any 2 cards. The two limpers will
probably fold giving you 3 to 1 from the pot, even though you only have
to beat 1 hand to win.
MB_
Incidentally, I assume this strategy would also work in limit games and
split games like limit O8 and limit S8??? Or not?? What do you think?
Mel
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