Stud8 donkey seeks advice (with HH)
John A. Fish
by much. And I am experiencing huge swings. I would appreciate some
advice on how I could have played this hand better.
The structure is 50c/$1 with no ante. The bring-in is 25c. Normally
this structure rewards very tight players. Most players know this so
rarely are more than two players contesting the pot. This table was
different and was playing crazy loose so I decided to loosen up. I
think I may have gone way to far with the idea (but maybe not because I
did win a nice pot when the battle was over).
I have interlaced the HH with my comments and thoughts at the time as
the play progressed. Now that I have reviewed the hand, I am thinking
that I may have misplayed the hand on just about every street (I don't
know). Like I said, I have very limited experience at loose/crazy
tables. If you are a winning Stud8 player, I would appreciate your
insights. Annotated hand history follows:
- John Fish
--------------
0.50/$1 7-Card Stud Hi/Lo 8
Seat 1: Hard Luck ($24.24 in chips)
Seat 2: LoveBoBo ($22.50 in chips)
Seat 3: rh2300 ($527.34 in chips)
Seat 4: bbmike ($10.50 in chips)
Seat 5: heartonslv ($12.88 in chips)
Seat 6: JohnAFish ($13.75 in chips)
Seat 7: lambler ($30.14 in chips)
3rd Street
Dealt to JohnAFish [ 7h 3d ] [ 6d ]
Dealt to Hard Luck [ 9s ]
Dealt to LoveBoBo [ Ad ]
Dealt to rh2300 [ 8h ]
Dealt to bbmike [ 8c ]
Dealt to heartonslv [ 4s ]
Dealt to lambler [ 2d ]
lambler : Bring-in ($0.25)
Hard Luck: Fold
LoveBoBo: Call ($0.25)
rh2300 : Fold
bbmike : Call ($0.25)
heartonslv: Call ($0.25)
JohnAFish : Call ($0.25)
This table has a no ante structure with a fairly high bring-in. Tight
play is the norm here. But today is different. It is Saturday night
and this table has been playing very loose and aggressive. Many pots
have been huge.
I have a three card low with almost no scoop potential. Many of my low
cards are dead. Normally I probably fold this with this structure. But
because I am in last position I decide to limp in getting 4:1 pot odds.
Comments?
4th Street
Dealt to LoveBoBo [ Ad 5d ]
Dealt to bbmike [ 8c 2s ]
Dealt to heartonslv [ 4s Kh ]
Dealt to JohnAFish [ 7h 3d ] [ 6d 3h ]
Dealt to lambler [ 2d 2h ]
lambler : Bet ($0.50)
LoveBoBo: Call ($0.50)
bbmike : Call ($0.50)
heartonslv: Call ($0.50)
JohnAFish : Call ($0.50)
I pair but as last to act in a five way pot with a pretty good looking
board, I decide to take a card off. Comments?
5th Street
Dealt to LoveBoBo [ Ad 5d 4h ]
Dealt to bbmike [ 8c 2s Jh ]
Dealt to heartonslv [ 4s Kh Qc ]
Dealt to JohnAFish [ 7h 3d ] [ 6d 3h 8d ]
Dealt to lambler [ 2d 2h 5h ]
lambler : Bet ($1)
LoveBoBo: Call ($1)
bbmike : Fold
heartonslv: Call ($1)
JohnAFish : Raise ($2)
lambler makes an open pair and leads, but because LoveBoBo did not
raise, I figure that LoveBoBo may have paired. I decide to raise as last
to act as a semibluff (representing a made 8 low). Comments?
lambler : Raise ($2)
LoveBoBo: Call ($2)
heartonslv: Call ($2)
JohnAFish : Raise ($2)
Hmmm. lambler three-bets and two players cold call to me. Here I make
a donkey play (I think) and decide to cap to tell them that I really
do have a hand (a lie of course). What would you have done?
lambler : Call ($1)
LoveBoBo: Call ($1)
heartonslv: Call ($1)
6th Street
Dealt to LoveBoBo [ Ad 5d 4h Ac ]
Dealt to heartonslv [ 4s Kh Qc Qd ]
Dealt to JohnAFish [ 7h 3d ] [ 6d 3h 8d 7d ]
Dealt to lambler [ 2d 2h 5h 3c ]
LoveBoBo: Check
heartonslv: Check
JohnAFish : Bet ($1)
lambler, who has been betting, no longer has the high board and is now
behind me. Two checks to me. The 7d gives me two pair with a redraw to
a flush. My board is well disguised as a low. I decide to bet
partially because it is so well disguised. Maybe someone will fold...
lambler : Raise ($2)
LoveBoBo: Call ($2)
heartonslv: Call ($2)
JohnAFish : Raise ($2)
I three-bet after lambler raises and two cold calls. Was this reckless?
lambler : Raise ($2)
LoveBoBo: Call ($2)
heartonslv: Call ($2)
JohnAFish : Call ($1)
lambler caps. What could he have? I decide a wheel is possible now.
Also what could the calling stations have to make so many cold calls?
No matter. I may be beat but I am not folding now. Is this right?
7th Street
Dealt to JohnAFish [ 7h 3d] [6d 3h 8d 7d ][ 7c ]
LoveBoBo: Check
heartonslv: Check
JohnAFish : Bet ($1)
I made sevens full. W00t! Might as well bet them.
lambler : Call ($1)
LoveBoBo: Call ($1)
heartonslv: Call ($1)
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $38.75 | Rake: $1
Hard Luck didn't bet (folded) [ xx xx 9s ]
LoveBoBo lost $9.75 [ 7s 4d Ad 5d 4h Ac Ks ]
HI: two pair, aces and fours
rh2300 didn't bet (folded) [ xx xx 8h ]
bbmike lost $0.75 (folded) [ xx xx 8c 2s Jh ]
heartonslv lost $9.75 [ 5s Kd 4s Kh Qc Qd Ts ]
HI: two pair, kings and queens
JohnAFish bet $9.75, collected $38.75, net +$29
[ 7h 3d 6d 3h 8d 7d 7c ]
HI: a full house, sevens full of threes
lambler lost $9.75 [ 6s 2c 2d 2h 5h 3c Kc ]
HI: three of a kind, twos
foldem
<snip>
This seems all right but you need to catch good.
>
>4th Street
>Dealt to LoveBoBo [ Ad 5d ]
>Dealt to bbmike [ 8c 2s ]
>Dealt to heartonslv [ 4s Kh ]
>Dealt to JohnAFish [ 7h 3d ] [ 6d 3h ]
>Dealt to lambler [ 2d 2h ]
>lambler : Bet ($0.50)
>LoveBoBo: Call ($0.50)
>bbmike : Call ($0.50)
>heartonslv: Call ($0.50)
>JohnAFish : Call ($0.50)
>
>I pair but as last to act in a five way pot with a pretty good looking
>board, I decide to take a card off. Comments?
ERROR. You must fold when the brick hits on 4th street. You have no
reasonable play for high and you have to catch two of three good for
low. This is the biggest mistake in s/8: continuing after a 4th street
brick.
>5th Street
>Dealt to LoveBoBo [ Ad 5d 4h ]
>Dealt to bbmike [ 8c 2s Jh ]
>Dealt to heartonslv [ 4s Kh Qc ]
>Dealt to JohnAFish [ 7h 3d ] [ 6d 3h 8d ]
>Dealt to lambler [ 2d 2h 5h ]
>lambler : Bet ($1)
>LoveBoBo: Call ($1)
>bbmike : Fold
>heartonslv: Call ($1)
>JohnAFish : Raise ($2)
>
>lambler makes an open pair and leads, but because LoveBoBo did not
>raise, I figure that LoveBoBo may have paired. I decide to raise as last
>to act as a semibluff (representing a made 8 low). Comments?
Aiyah - you continue to draw at a horrible low and punish yourself
besides.
>lambler : Raise ($2)
>LoveBoBo: Call ($2)
>heartonslv: Call ($2)
>JohnAFish : Raise ($2)
>
>Hmmm. lambler three-bets and two players cold call to me. Here I make
> a donkey play (I think) and decide to cap to tell them that I really
>do have a hand (a lie of course). What would you have done?
Donkey is correct.
In for a penny, in for a pound.
>7th Street
>Dealt to JohnAFish [ 7h 3d] [6d 3h 8d 7d ][ 7c ]
>LoveBoBo: Check
>heartonslv: Check
>JohnAFish : Bet ($1)
>
>I made sevens full. W00t! Might as well bet them.
>
>lambler : Call ($1)
>LoveBoBo: Call ($1)
>heartonslv: Call ($1)
>
>*** SUMMARY ***
>Pot: $38.75 | Rake: $1
>Hard Luck didn't bet (folded) [ xx xx 9s ]
>LoveBoBo lost $9.75 [ 7s 4d Ad 5d 4h Ac Ks ]
> HI: two pair, aces and fours
>rh2300 didn't bet (folded) [ xx xx 8h ]
>bbmike lost $0.75 (folded) [ xx xx 8c 2s Jh ]
>heartonslv lost $9.75 [ 5s Kd 4s Kh Qc Qd Ts ]
> HI: two pair, kings and queens
>JohnAFish bet $9.75, collected $38.75, net +$29
> [ 7h 3d 6d 3h 8d 7d 7c ]
> HI: a full house, sevens full of threes
>lambler lost $9.75 [ 6s 2c 2d 2h 5h 3c Kc ]
> HI: three of a kind, twos
Nicely suxed. Look how far behind you were on 6th.
Best,
Peter
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John A. Fish wrote:
> My adventure with Stud Hi/Lo continues. I am beating the game but not
> by much. And I am experiencing huge swings. I would appreciate some
> advice on how I could have played this hand better.
>
> The structure is 50c/$1 with no ante. The bring-in is 25c. Normally
> this structure rewards very tight players. Most players know this so
> rarely are more than two players contesting the pot. This table was
> different and was playing crazy loose so I decided to loosen up. I
> think I may have gone way to far with the idea (but maybe not because I
> did win a nice pot when the battle was over).
Without getting into how the hand was played, which is going to be
covered many times I'm sure, a couple general observations:
A loose Stud 8 table is not an invitation to play loose. It's an
invitation to play tight. Why bring your play down to their level, when
you could wait for a good hand and let their crazy looseness fill your
pockets?
Bluffing this game, even a semibluff, will yield less rewards than in
straight up Stud at similar levels. And that ain't much.
Learn to value scooping the pot. You're aiming for at least 3/4 of
every pot you get involved in. A split is a disappointment that you'll
accept, but not enjoy. Choose your starting hands based on this
potential.
John A. Fish
don't know what possessed me to play the way I did.
Cheers,
John
John A. Fish
> invitation to play tight. Why bring your play down to their level, when
> you could wait for a good hand and let their crazy looseness fill your
> pockets?
I agree that tight play will be profitable in this situation but it also
seems that a case can also be made for playing slightly looser if the
the others are playing sub-optimally. This makes me think that limping
on 3rd street was okay but, as 'foldem' said I really did have to fold
after I bricked on 4th street.
> Bluffing this game, even a semibluff, will yield less rewards than in
> straight up Stud at similar levels. And that ain't much.
Excellent point. I normally do play super tight, some might say
ridiculously tight, and I tend to play very aggressively on the hands I
do choose to play. And most of the time at least half of the players at
this site are regulars who play a similar style regarding hand selection
(and we all know each other's style). When I am playing against the
regulars I can often get away with some pretty outrageous multi-street
semi-bluffs if my board looks strong relative to theirs and I catch
good. I failed to make this essential adjustment to the very loose and
unfamiliar players at this particular table. Thanks for the reminder.
> Learn to value scooping the pot. You're aiming for at least 3/4 of
> every pot you get involved in. A split is a disappointment that you'll
> accept, but not enjoy. Choose your starting hands based on this
> potential.
Yes, I agree in most situations. However I do think that it may be okay
to play for a split in a 4 or 5 way pot if one is very strong on one
direction or the other. In this case, however, I did not have any
realistic chance for either a high or low. I am a donkey. I admit it.
Thanks for the comments.
Cheers,
John
Poker Guy@pokermagazine.com Stud Poker Guy
I've written a book on the game, How to Beat Seven Card Stud
Eight-or-Better at the Lower Limits. Maybe we even play in the same
games online :o). It's an e-book right now; I've made several changes
from that text, and the print version will be out next year. You can
get the e-book at booklocker.com. I also have some columns on the game
at pokermagazine.com.
Shameless self-promotion, yes. But the book is geared for low-limit
players like yourself, and analyzes all the playable hands, and has
odds for low draws too.
Also, do a search of RGP for GCA's stuff on the game. Love or hate
Russ, he knows his stud 8 and has a lot of good insights into the game.
You can also go to 2 plus 2 over to the stud forum; there are some good
threads on stud 8 there.
Regards,
Paul from Minneapolis
_________________________________________________________
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Visit www.pokermagazine.com
Omaholic
With an ante, I would rarely fold this hand unless there was a completion
and a raise to me. Your straight cards are mostly live. With no ante it
might be right to fold this, but if it is a loose game seeing 4th seems
fine.
>
> 4th Street
> Dealt to LoveBoBo [ Ad 5d ]
> Dealt to bbmike [ 8c 2s ]
> Dealt to heartonslv [ 4s Kh ]
> Dealt to JohnAFish [ 7h 3d ] [ 6d 3h ]
> Dealt to lambler [ 2d 2h ]
> lambler : Bet ($0.50)
> LoveBoBo: Call ($0.50)
> bbmike : Call ($0.50)
> heartonslv: Call ($0.50)
> JohnAFish : Call ($0.50)
>
> I pair but as last to act in a five way pot with a pretty good looking
> board, I decide to take a card off. Comments?
>
I disagree with Peter here in that catching a pair does not make this a
mandatory fold as catching a 9-K would be. Your 3's are live, you can
close the action, and LoveBoBo is the only board with a scary low. I
probably take one off here, but the hand is very marginal.
> 5th Street
> Dealt to LoveBoBo [ Ad 5d 4h ]
> Dealt to bbmike [ 8c 2s Jh ]
> Dealt to heartonslv [ 4s Kh Qc ]
> Dealt to JohnAFish [ 7h 3d ] [ 6d 3h 8d ]
> Dealt to lambler [ 2d 2h 5h ]
> lambler : Bet ($1)
> LoveBoBo: Call ($1)
> bbmike : Fold
> heartonslv: Call ($1)
> JohnAFish : Raise ($2)
>
> lambler makes an open pair and leads, but because LoveBoBo did not
> raise, I figure that LoveBoBo may have paired. I decide to raise as last
> to act as a semibluff (representing a made 8 low). Comments?
I think you must fold on this street. You are almost certainly behind for
both high and low.
> lambler : Raise ($2)
> LoveBoBo: Call ($2)
> heartonslv: Call ($2)
> JohnAFish : Raise ($2)
>
> Hmmm. lambler three-bets and two players cold call to me. Here I make
> a donkey play (I think) and decide to cap to tell them that I really
> do have a hand (a lie of course). What would you have done?
>
> lambler : Call ($1)
> LoveBoBo: Call ($1)
> heartonslv: Call ($1)
>
> 6th Street
> Dealt to LoveBoBo [ Ad 5d 4h Ac ]
> Dealt to heartonslv [ 4s Kh Qc Qd ]
> Dealt to JohnAFish [ 7h 3d ] [ 6d 3h 8d 7d ]
> Dealt to lambler [ 2d 2h 5h 3c ]
> LoveBoBo: Check
> heartonslv: Check
> JohnAFish : Bet ($1)
>
> lambler, who has been betting, no longer has the high board and is now
> behind me. Two checks to me. The 7d gives me two pair with a redraw to
> a flush. My board is well disguised as a low. I decide to bet
> partially because it is so well disguised. Maybe someone will fold...
I don't think you should have gotten this far, but assuming you did, you
have to see 7th street with your low draw + flush draw. Even if 7's up is
good at this point, you have to hope that the aces don't pair, the queens
don't pair, the guy who's been representing the case deuce all along
doesn't have it, and no one makes low. That's a lot of hoping. See 7th
as cheaply as possible.
>
> lambler : Raise ($2)
> LoveBoBo: Call ($2)
> heartonslv: Call ($2)
> JohnAFish : Raise ($2)
>
> I three-bet after lambler raises and two cold calls. Was this reckless?
Yes.
>
> lambler : Raise ($2)
> LoveBoBo: Call ($2)
> heartonslv: Call ($2)
> JohnAFish : Call ($1)
>
> lambler caps. What could he have? I decide a wheel is possible now.
> Also what could the calling stations have to make so many cold calls?
> No matter. I may be beat but I am not folding now. Is this right?
>
Even though the case deuce is out, my suspicion as I read this was that he
was full with (25) or (23) underneath.
> 7th Street
> Dealt to JohnAFish [ 7h 3d] [6d 3h 8d 7d ][ 7c ]
> LoveBoBo: Check
> heartonslv: Check
> JohnAFish : Bet ($1)
>
> I made sevens full. W00t! Might as well bet them.
>
Indeed!
> lambler : Call ($1)
> LoveBoBo: Call ($1)
> heartonslv: Call ($1)
>
> *** SUMMARY ***
> Pot: $38.75 | Rake: $1
> Hard Luck didn't bet (folded) [ xx xx 9s ]
> LoveBoBo lost $9.75 [ 7s 4d Ad 5d 4h Ac Ks ]
> HI: two pair, aces and fours
> rh2300 didn't bet (folded) [ xx xx 8h ]
> bbmike lost $0.75 (folded) [ xx xx 8c 2s Jh ]
> heartonslv lost $9.75 [ 5s Kd 4s Kh Qc Qd Ts ]
> HI: two pair, kings and queens
> JohnAFish bet $9.75, collected $38.75, net +$29
> [ 7h 3d 6d 3h 8d 7d 7c ]
> HI: a full house, sevens full of threes
> lambler lost $9.75 [ 6s 2c 2d 2h 5h 3c Kc ]
> HI: three of a kind, twos
______________________________________________________________________
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
John A. Fish
playing Stud8 for a while and hit the books. There is no excuse for
playing it as badly as I did. It appears I have a serious leak or two. :-)
Regards,
John Fish
Omaholic
The two best reads are Ray Zee's 2+2 book (the stud/8 section is probably
the best 2+2 published work) and Todd Brunson's section in Super System 2.
For lower limit games I think SS2 may be a little more helpful. Also
search for Russ's posts on stud/8 on RGP. Good luck!
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