NL Starting Hands
Brad S
about my choice of starting hands. I have studied a great deal of what
Sklansky and other authors both online and in print have to say on the
matter and I am left a little wanting for info. Most authors seem to give
starting hand rankings assuming that the player is in fixed limit games
and state simply that "starting hand values will change in No limit
games". I myself am smart enough to deduce this and I have a rough idea of
how, but I'd appreciate any feedback others might have to offer.
In my experience, Pocket pairs go up in value, as more pots will be heads
up before the flop. In this way, I am inclined to look at hand values for
shorthanded games as a better guide. Also, small and medium pocket pairs
are well disguised when they flop a set and can win some big pots when an
opponent catches top pair with a good kicker, or even two pair. Suited
connectors I am unsure of. On the one hand, they can win big pots and are
well disguised, but there are less multiway pots to get good odds on a
draw, and an opponent can always destroy your odds anyway with a big bet.
I know starting hands change in value situationally and cannot be summed
up as simply as many authors try to do, but again... any help would be
appreciated, and if you want to give general hand rankings for NL, I sure
won't hold it against you. Thanks
Brad S.
_________________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com
Ken Lovering
In no limit and pot limit tournaments I play tight until my stack, in
comparison to the blinds, no longer allows me to becuase money lost is more
valuable than money won.........let me try to explain.
It is the last hand of the current level which is 25/50 blinds. You are on
the button holding 22. Everyone folds to you and you believe that if you
raise it to $150.00 you have a 60% chance of getting both blinds to fold.
If you win $75 in blinds you increase the betting power of the first $75
already in your stack by 100%. However, only at the current level. The
blinds are going up next hand to by 100%, decreasing the value of that $75
you won by 50%. What once took only $25 to call a small blind now takes $50
and instead of $75 covering three small blinds, it only covers 1 1/2. So you
have only increased the betting power of the first $75 in your stack by 50%
by winning that $75 in blinds because the blind increase is going to devalue
your stack by 50%.
Now if you lose the $150.00, you decrease the betting power of the first
$150.00 in your stack by 100%, twice as much as you gain by winning. You
see, if you had stayed out of the hand, you would have another $150.00 to go
with the first $150.00 left in your stack you will bet with in the future.
At the current betting level of 25/50, the first $150.00 in your stack can
only cover 1/2 as many blinds. To make matters worse, the blinds go up next
hand to 50/100 and that first $150 in your stack can only cover 1 orbit as
compared to 2 orbits if you had not played your 22.
So, if you adapt your play in your tournaments with the mindset that your
money decreases in value with each hand played, since you are approaching
another increase in the blind structure, you should become much more
selective in the hands that you play in the early part of the tournament.
Best regards,
Ken
(who is often too analytical for his own good.)
If the flop doesn't help anyone and you both check it down to the river and
you win the $200 pot
"Brad S" <anon...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f8fda74$0$37212$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
Vince lepore
There is quite a bit of controversy over starting hand requirments.
Sklansky and Malmuth have developed a chart that is included in HPFAP.
Abdul has a chart that differs a bit. I believe Krieger has a
slightly different chart. I don't have any idea whether Carson
included one in his book. They were all developed as far as I know
for limit holdem. It doesn't matter. Learn one of them. Then forget
about it. Refer to it only when and if you are running bad and are
questioning your own judgement.
Starting hand requirements for NLH are buried deep within the limit
charts. If you look hard enough you will find them. Not all of
them. Some authors do not include all hands in thier recommendations.
I do, but I'm not an author. NLH is a different animal than limit or
even pot limit. It is the one place in Holdem poker where the term
any two cards (ATC) can win is true. The preflop implied odds for ATC
in NLH can be very great. Post flop imlied odds are usually not nearly
as great as they are preflop. The reason for this is that preflop is
where the least information is available. If you play a lot of NLH
tournaments you will see that there is a lot of moving in before the
flop. This is one reason where hand rankings come into play and why
you should learn them. But they need a bit of modification for NLH.
That's why you should also get a copy of Mike Caro's poker probe and
run hand vs hand scenarios to get a good understanding of how hands
hold up against each other in a showdown scenario. This is necessary
because Hand Rankings deal primarily with which hands figure to make
you the most money not necessarily which hand is stronger preflop.
You are probably asking yourself "where's the beef"? After all you
asked for starting hand requirements and I just spoke in generalities.
Well "generalities" are wherein lie NLH starting hand requirements.
From reading your post I believe that you have a good understanding of
hand rankings. Experience alone may improve your understanding of
what hands to play and when to play them. I believe that if you play a
lot you will develop a style that is comfortable for you. Once that
happens you can adjust according to your long term results. For
instance if you find yourself calling too frequently or not betting
the right amount or something else then you will be able to correct
your play. I think you should just keep playing and trying things and
having fun while you are doing it.
Vince
Russ Georgiev
Don't be fooled by the play in NL in cash games as to NL in tourney
play, two totally different games. Cash game NL plays more like PL in
reality, especially when the stacks get large. This is a major reason
that most of your tourney icons can't play winning NL cash game poker.
This I will also add, knowing how to bet and read the betting is far
more important than your starting hand selection. Many of the best NL
players could beat most players without looking at their cards,
provided this fact was not known.
Russ Georgiev
www.pokermafia.com SOON
Russ Georgiev
Vince, my CAT knows more about NL poker than you do. My CHIMP knows
more than Sklansky or Malmuth. NL tournament poker is basically a
JOKE. Cash game NL is a totally different game.
The more you discuss theory, the more you show how little you know.
Russ Georgiev
www.pokermafia.com SOON
2fold
> more than Sklansky or Malmuth. NL tournament poker is basically a
> JOKE. Cash game NL is a totally different game.
>
> The more you discuss theory, the more you show how little you know.
>
> Russ Georgiev
>
> www.pokermafia.com SOON
With the enourmous amounts of money on the line, why do you think the NL
tourneys are a joke? This isn't a flame, I honestly would like know the
basis of your opinion.
spoody
** Anonymous RGP ACCESS at http://www.LiveActionPoker.com
** $100 Deposit Bonus at http://www.FabulousPoker.com
Vince lepore
> lepo...@hotmail.com (Vince lepore) wrote in message news:<bbdd5c2d.03101...@posting.google.com>...
> > "Brad S" <anon...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3f8fda74$0$37212$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com>...
>>
> more than Sklansky or Malmuth. NL tournament poker is basically a
> JOKE. Cash game NL is a totally different game.
>
> The more you discuss theory, the more you show how little you know.
>
> Russ Georgiev
>
tournament poker. You couldn't win a tournament if everyone turned
their cards up. you are a dope. DOPE! You have never won an honest
nickel in your life. You do not know what the word Theory means.
Poker is not your game scamming is. Stick to what you know. You are a
low life. Admit it!
Vince
Vince lepore
> "Brad S" <anon...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3f8fda74$0$37212$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com>...
>
> play, two totally different games. Cash game NL plays more like PL in
> reality, especially when the stacks get large. This is a major reason
> that most of your tourney icons can't play winning NL cash game poker.
>
> This I will also add, knowing how to bet and read the betting is far
> more important than your starting hand selection. Many of the best NL
> players could beat most players without looking at their cards,
> provided this fact was not known.
>
> Russ Georgiev
Don't be fooled by this fools rhetoric. Notice he gives no advice
only stupid comments about cash games vs tournament games. I guess he
believes somehow people will make him as a knowledgeable poker
authority. This...person, has never won an honest penny in his life.
He is a coward and his advice reflects that. He cheats to win because
he can't do it any other way whether he wants to admit it or not.
Hey goofball. Where is the website? It's October or haven't you
noticed. I guess this will be another GCA fiasco.
Vince
Vince lepore
The answer is simple. Russ don't play them because people cheat him
and he can't win.
Vince
Russ Georgiev
Because it always comes down to a dice shooting contest. One player
has AKs, while another has QQ, or something similar like AA vs KK. I
will respond with a better answer tomorrow.
Russ Georgiev
RazzO
>
> The answer is simple. Russ don't play them because people cheat him
> and he can't win.
>
> Vince
Rzitup, I hope that since June it has been enough time for Russ to
confir with John Martino on these following quesions you posted ;
>["Questions for Russ Georgiev
>First of all, RGP would like to go on record as stating that we
>believe you are a great pumpkin. Therefore, we would like to
>address some pertinent questions to you:
>Having been a professional cross dresser for many years -
>(1)Would you know if a keyboard was missing the . , ' or ; ?
>(2) Have you ever seen Minnie Mouse without her suit on??
>(3) How do you believe that the earth is round?
>(4) How does one protect oneself from being carjacked while driving
in the
>Hollywood Park parking lot?
>(5) Do you believe that you can be "smart" and still be broke?
>(6) Do you believe that you can wear nice clothes and still be dumb?
>(7) Do you deny that you once farted in church?
>(8) Do you know the level of sophistication it takes for a guy named
"Wayno"
>to operate a digital alarm clock?
>(9) How do you survive when others tell you you are a "more on"?
>(10) Do you rely on the yourself to tie your shoes?
>(11) If you do not believe you are straight, why are your friends
named C
and A?
>(12) Do you deny that you once wore a pink shirt underneath your
Burger King
>uniform?
>RGP It is hard to get in the way of a candle, when you cant fight
the
>wick.
>Michael K. O'Malley
>www.rzitup.com
>"The guy who just showed up on RGP
> to bash GCA...what a coincidence.""}
There should have been a Q #13, which would be, "If a tree fell in the
forrest and there was no body there to hear it, would Rust post it?"
razzo
Squint
Brad
I grew up around No-Limit poker my whole life. I no longer live where
I grew up but do visit occasionally. They still play no-limit all the
time. This is where I do most of my gambling. While I don't make a
living gambling I do have two uncles who have their whole life. My dad
now does and I have a cousin that has his whole life. They all have
done it playing no-limit. All types of games not just Hold'em. I am a
poker book junkie also. I agree that most books do not cover no-limit
very well if at all. I also have read the post twice and am not sure
if you are looking for tourneyment advice or cash game advice. Vince
seems to conclude that you are playing tourneyments however I don't see
where you said that maybe I missed it. There is a big difference in
cash game and tourneyment play. If you need help with tourneyment then
I have none to give you. I have never played in a tourneyment probably
never will. I just don't see it as a logical way to play. If you get
drawnout on in a freezout tourneyment then you are done however if some
bad player calls and draws out on me in a cash game then I just reach
in my poket grab more money say good hand and try to get it back.
That stuff being said my advice to you on cash games is that you must
play the man not the cards. You must also play the size of the bet in
comparison to your cards. Position means a lot more in no-limit than
it does in limit. Here goes. In early position play hands that you
can come in with a pot sized raise with and if you get re-raised you
will move all in with. Those hands are different for everyone. What
ever you feel comfortable with is up to you. In middle position play
hands that you can call a pot-sized raise with or a hand that you can
move all in with. If it is a hand that you can move all in with and
you are in middle position then put it all in now. In late position
you can begin to play suited connectors and A-x suited if you can call
with 5-10 percent of your money and get a flop. That means if you are
in late position and have one player in the pot defore the action gets
to you and you need to call a bet for about 5-10 percent of your stack
then you can do it with suited connectors and A-x suited. If the flop
hits you then you can bust somebody. If it misses you then just
through it away. If no one is in the pot before you act and you are in
late positon then you can try to buy the blinds with just about any two
cards. I think the thing to remember is this if you can't or don't
stop the action someone can put you all in. So if you don't feel
comfortable getting all in with that hand and you can't or chose not to
stop the action then you probably should not be in the pot. So don't
go in raising with hands late unless you plan on getting it all in.
adn never go in calling from early position unless you are willing to
get it all in. The game is about how agressive the others players are
and how well you read them.
summary:
Early:
pairs down to JJ and Ace Face maybe ace ten suited pot sized raise and
if someone re-raises push it all in. If they put you all in then I
would call with any of the pairs and AK.
Middle:
Pairs down to 88, Face Face suited and if I had an early position hand
I would move all in. The rest of the hands I raise if there were no
raises in front of me. If their was a pot-sized raise in front I would
call with these hands. If someone had already moved all in then I
would refer back to my hands that I call all in with. If the same
player keeps going all in then you can loosen up a little because they
can't get the goods everytime they go all in. See what I mean it is a
game of people and tells.
Late:
really depends on bet size number of players how agressive the blind
players are ect. From this position you have a lot of freedom. I
think maybe only experience can help you there.
If you are talking tourneyment then I can't help you and I don't know
it this will help much either just some general rules that I break
myself depending on the person their stack and my stack. Their eyes
and hands the way they breath all kinds of things. Pay attention watch
the game and get experience is the best I can tell you. Like I said if
you are talking tourneyments then I would say that Vince could help you
a lot he seemed to have a pretty good grip on it.
--
Squint
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Vince lepore
Thank you Squint for pointing out the errors of my ways. As much as I
hate to I owe Russ an apology. I read the original post then read
Loverings reply and from that reply I believed the discussion was
about NLH tournament starting hands. I do not play much NLH live. I
believe that my post contains good advice for tournament play.
vince