Chess and Poker
Tom Weideman
that seem to come into threads on rgp that involve chess. Every so often
someone asks the question about correlation between skill in chess and skill
in poker, and there generally follows a laundry list of people that
participate in both. I have always toyed with the idea of starting a thread
that enumerates these people, and now I am finally doing it. Here is how it
will work...
You can post about yourself or someone you know, just adding the name and as
much relevant information has you have about them to the bottom of the list
(please repost the existing list each time). For simplicity, when posting a
rating, just post the HIGHEST 100-point number reached. For example, if
John Doe once reached a rating of 2346, and is currently 2297, please post
"2300". For poker play, use the following guideline:
limit poker
-----------
limits below 10-20: low limit
10-20 to 30-60: middle low limit
40-80 to 100-200: middle high limit
limits over 100-200: high limit
big bet poker (pot/no limit)
----------------------------
blinds below 25-50: low big bet
blinds 25-50+: high big bet
tournaments
-----------
buy-ins below $1000: low tournaments
buy-ins $1000+: high tournaments
Categorize the player according to the highest limits they MOST COMMONLY
play in brick & mortar card rooms. People occasionally slum and sometimes
take shots higher, and many will play both tournaments and ring games, but I
want the game they usually play. Online play is going to be skewed to the
low side, so try to stick with (or translate to) b&m play, and if the person
plays only tournaments, then use the typical buy-in size to approximate the
categories above. Also, please stick to people who play poker regularly,
rather than chess players that only dabble in poker. For example, I have
played poker with both D. Gurevich and K. Shirazi, but to my knowledge they
don't play with nearly enough frequency to make this list. Note that to
make the list the player doesn't need to be a poker pro, or even a winning
player.
I will start with a fairly exhaustive list of people I know about. Some of
the numbers are guesses, and those are marked with a question mark. If you
can confirm or correct that guess, please feel free to do so. Numbers where
I can't even guess are replaced by a question mark entirely, with no
approximation. Also some people may have moved up in poker limits since I
last saw them, so if that requires correcting, feel free.
Okay, here goes. I know from reading rgp posts in the past that there are a
lot more of you out there (I also know some others by sight but not by
name), so let's build a list and finally put this recurring topic to bed.
player poker USCF FIDE
------ ----- ---- ----
Darse Billings low limit? 2000 (Can) na
Walter Browne middle low limit 2600 2600? *
Bob Ciaffone high big bet 2300? 2200? *
Jim Geary middle high limit 2100? na
Dan Harrington high tournaments 2300? ? *
Howard Lederer high limit 2100? ?
Cris Ramayrat low tournaments 2500 ?
Stuart Reuben high big bet 2200? 2200? *
Ken Smith (dec) high tournaments 2200? 2300? *
Dennis Waterman middle high limit 2300? 2300? *
Tom Weideman middle high limit 2200 2200
* = top ratings are guesses based on rating lists I have seen online.
Tom Weideman
spoody
chess rating is 2500 USCF and 2441 FIDE. Not 100% sure about his limits
in poker.
http://www.chessexpress.com/shahade.html
Spoody - was a 2100 USCF Correspondence chess but would guess at 2000
now for all styles and a lower/middle limit player.
Spoody
** Anonymous RGP ACCESS at http://www.LiveActionPoker.com
** $10 can win you a seat in the WSOP at http://www.FabulousPoker.com
J. Michael Hammond
> ------ ----- ---- ----
Jim Geary
"Tom Weideman" <no_spam_i@hortas_rule.net> wrote in message
news:BBA1241B.13A75%no_spam_i@hortas_rule.net...
> For example, I have
> played poker with both D. Gurevich and K. Shirazi, but to my knowledge
they
> don't play with nearly enough frequency to make this list.
Saddenz.
Tom Weideman
Geary" <jay...@netaxs.com> wrote:
Heh, seriously. But professional chess players don't make enough money to
last very long in poker games when they don't play (poker) very well. Okay,
the top 2 or 3 in the world do, but I've never run into Kasparov or Kramnik
at a poker table.
Tom Weideman
noiseboy
hold'em, occasionally play 15-30 when the game is good. I completely suck
at chess, online blitz rating of about 1100. I try to study chess, but
for some reason it never sinks, I enjoy playing even though I suck, mostly
playing other players at about my level.
There are a lot of player who excel at both, but for some reason I can't.
_________________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com
AJ
<no_spam_i@hortas_rule.net> wrote:
>player poker USCF FIDE
>------ ----- ---- ----
>Darse Billings low limit? 2000 (Can) na
>Walter Browne middle low limit 2600 2600? *
>Bob Ciaffone high big bet 2300? 2200? *
>Jim Geary middle high limit 2100? na
>Dan Harrington high tournaments 2300? ? *
>Howard Lederer high limit 2100? ?
>Cris Ramayrat low tournaments 2500 ?
>Stuart Reuben high big bet 2200? 2200? *
>Ken Smith (dec) high tournaments 2200? 2300? *
>Dennis Waterman middle high limit 2300? 2300? *
>Tom Weideman middle high limit 2200 2200
>
>* = top ratings are guesses based on rating lists I have seen online.
AJ middle low limit 1650
Dan Merchant
i'm a long-time chess whose been improving every year for the last few
years.
My theory is this, if you are a long time chess player, fairly good,
you are naturally drawn to hold em or omaha, if these games are
presented correctly. if you are good at chess you have a strong memory
and are good with numbers, thus it's easy for you to play the odds and
win with only a little study of a good poker book.
but, not all good poker players can move into chess easily. it takes
much study and practice, especially for long grueling tournament
matches.
--
dm
yuc
Tom Weideman <no_spam_i@hortas_rule.net> wrote in message news:<BBA1241B.13A75%no_spam_i@hortas_rule.net>...
Vince lepore
> that seem to come into threads on rgp that involve chess. >
Since my best ex-almost-a-friend Tom "PHhhhD" Weideman asked the RGP
community do do this I will participate. I'm not sure what the Chess
rating is good for. But I will tell you that because someone plays
mid limit and not high limit does not of itself indicate his poker
playing prowess. I don't know maybe Tom's writing a thesis for
another PHhhhhD.
Vince Lepore's chess raitng: hi 1800 lo 1100 - Yahoo chess: Only the
best chess federation in the world. That's all. Poker: $.05-.10 but
I do know how to play. Don't let the low limit fool you. after all
badger only plays $3-6 and he's as good as Gary Carson.
P.S. "Fascinated" is such a facillitating word. Don'tchya think?
Vince
Spielmacher
Klinger from Austria. Both in their thirties and high-limit and
tournament players. Tolnai's FIDE-rating must be around 2550, Klingers
2500. Klinger runs a pokerclub in Austria for a living. Tolnai is a
professional player who plays the big tournaments, including the WSOP.
Mid/end 1980's Tolnai passed the 2600-barrier and was one of the top
Hungarian players. Spielmacher
Tom Weideman <no_spam_i@hortas_rule.net> wrote in message news:<BBA1241B.13A75%no_spam_i@hortas_rule.net>...
RPM1
> player poker USCF FIDE
> ------ ----- ---- ----
Patrick low limit HE 1500 ---
Long time chess player who only recently took up hold'em.
I find hold'em to come very naturally, much easier than chess.
Mordecai Schwartz
> player poker USCF FIDE
> ------ ----- ---- ----
I noticed that Boris Kreiman, 2500+ USCF, entered a final event
tournament in AC last month, as did Greg Shahade, whom others have
mentioned.
Squint
1700 USCF rating
I play low big bet. Ten and twenty dollar blinds no limit.
--
Squint
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Eric Lindholm
But I'm not nearly that strong a chess player now. I haven't played
seriously in a dozen years and have forgotten a lot.
I prefer poker to chess because (1) I have more control over how long I have
to concentrate at a time, (2) I don't have to memorize nearly as much, and
(3) when experimenting with a different strategy, it's a lot easier to get a
large number of trials fairly quickly.
stephen
--it takes far more talent, determination, and practice to become a
good chess player than a poker player
--few chess skills correlate directly with poker. (other then
memorizing openings and developing pattern recognition skills for
middle/endgames, chess mostly just involves spatial relation skill,
which doesnt seem to do much for poker).
--if there's a reason why good chess players tend to do well at poker,
it's because they are a disciplined and studious bunch (how else to
get good at chess but by slighty manic discipline and studiousness?).
just my opinions
a question for chess nerds: would fischer have made a good poker
player? kasparaov undoubtedly would be quite good.
(me: 2100 uscf, 30-60 holdem mostly)
spoody
tilt more than most chess players. He really loses it quite a bit and
his ego may get in the way of his poker play. I think a guy like
Krammnik, who seems more unflappable would be the better poker player.
Fischer would suck, the guy loses it even more than kasparov.
but they could play me in chess blindfolded with no queen and probably
beat my every time
spoody
Jim Geary
is enough talent there to be a good poker player. The talent leve between
say Gurevich and the average bloke is so vast as to render the marginal
difference from Gurevich and Kasparov moot. Yet... It's odd.
"stephen" <asdfgh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:63589ccd.03100...@posting.google.com...
Chiaromondo
rated 2400 at blitz. I think (The) Johnny Moss is about 90 years old and I
don't see listed that he even plays chess, while I don't think anyone can
rate that high at the age of 90; even Victor Korchnoi was/is just around 70
when he was still performing at the highest level.
Tom Weideman
"Chiaromondo" <chiar...@notmail.com> wrote:
> Just to mention, there is some "JohnnyMoss" at Chessclub.com, where he is
> rated 2400 at blitz. I think (The) Johnny Moss is about 90 years old and I
> don't see listed that he even plays chess, while I don't think anyone can
> rate that high at the age of 90;
Somehow I don't think it's age that is limiting his ability to play chess,
heh.
Tom Weideman
Tom Weideman
63589ccd.03100...@posting.google.com, "stephen"
<asdfgh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> --few chess skills correlate directly with poker. (other then
> memorizing openings and developing pattern recognition skills for
> middle/endgames, chess mostly just involves spatial relation skill,
> which doesnt seem to do much for poker).
There are a few other things. One is the ability/inclination to look ahead.
Many poker players only think about what is happening on this street when
they determine what they plan to do. Chess players would be more
inclined/able to work through the "well if I do this, then he'll do this,
after which I'll do this..." I think this aspect of poker is frequently
overlooked by even reasonably good poker players.
Along those same lines, a chess player is used to considering the absurd (at
least chess players that are tactically gifted do this), and creative poker
players do the same thing.
And finally, most chess players have a penchant (okay, with some it's an
obsession) for post-mortem analysis to find out where they went wrong when
they lose. This is a very good quality for a poker player to have as well
(provided he doesn't share the analysis with the table, heh).
Overall I'd say there isn't all that much correlation, though. My survey
was mostly meant to see how many people have made this crossover. Almost
everyone I am aware of with this dual-citizenship started in chess and moved
to poker. I think this is because most reasonably strong chessplayers
considered (however briefly) earning a living at it, and after realizing
there just isn't any money in it inevitably gravitated to poker [that and
the fact that you can play chess when you are very young]. Whether they
succeeded there or not is pretty hit-and-miss, though.
Tom Weideman
JonCooke
> Im not sure about Kasparov being a good poker player. The guy seems to
> tilt more than most chess players. He really loses it quite a bit and
> his ego may get in the way of his poker play.
Do you mean that you don't think he would be able to handle the losses
to players playing hands that they shouldn;t have played?
I think his fierce will to win and his concentration would see him
right.
Backgammon skills are probably closer to poker skills. Chess always
seems to me to be a measure of raw intellectual power.
There are much worse beats possible in backgammon than poker. The
blend of luck and skill is there - both games are much easier to
analyse than chess. Cube action at backgammon has interesting
parallels to whether to wait a card before raising, especially at big
bet poker.
You see lots of high backgammon players playing high poker.
Jacobsen, Marmostein etc...
Kevin Cline
I second your sentiment. I gave up chess in college because it was
just too much work. Too much book knowledge is required to be
competitive. Nor did I have the patience to sit still for an entire
weekend to get five results. Also, chess players are generally not
very social.
Instead I took up backgammon, then bridge, and now poker. Play is
much faster, and there is no deep book to learn. And some girls play.
Chiaromondo
> > Just to mention, there is some "JohnnyMoss" at Chessclub.com, where he
is
> > rated 2400 at blitz. I think (The) Johnny Moss is about 90 years old and
I
> > don't see listed that he even plays chess, while I don't think anyone
can
> > rate that high at the age of 90;
>
> Somehow I don't think it's age that is limiting his ability to play chess,
> heh.
He died in 1997. But I did have one more point about that player, that there
is a good chance he also plays poker, just wondering his choice of a name.
Chiaromondo
poker and chess. Chess has two things in it; calculation (visual memory) and
learning. Anyone can learn the learning part, that leaving only the
calculation, that is the same as computerize power (that though would be
from some part helpfull at poker also, but as far as my chess brain goes,
the visual one, it's often frozen even after a lot of poker, and takes often
several blitz games to get it function effectively, and from that point I
know there is no correlation to poker thinking, at least not at holdem and
when playing just one table) of the computer - engines strength increases
from every half a move it sees further (with humans this is related also to
visual memory, not just calculations), while the engine itself is only about
learning. Visual abilities are needed at poker also, but not that much as at
chess, especially at blitz.
There is some saying (by Fischer I think) that chess is just learning and
memory. Poker might be just learning, and in my opinion there is plenty more
to learn at poker than at chess. At poker one though needs to be able to
solve many puzzles before one can learn something correctly, and one needs
to use analytical thinking when playing. So, it's not all learning at poker
either, but at least the visual memory limitations are not blocking the way
to improvement. Though one can practise the visual memory also, by playing
chess regularly.
Russkie Georgiekov
cheating that was going on.
I knew of one guy who would lacquer their opponents pieces to the table,
so they were unable to move. Another well-known world class player
would grease his opponent's pieces, so they would slip from his hands,
forcing him to make an undeseriable or illegal move.
I am currently in hiding, but will flood this newsgroup and use MANY
aliases to make it appear as though I have support. My new website,
www.ChessMafia.com is coming in November, and it will rock the chess
world.
Gary Kasparov is a cheat, and I have 7th-hand proof! Bobby Fisher is in
fact NOT in hiding, but rather is the real brains behind the IBM
consortium. Deep Blue is nothing more than Bobby in a rubber suit!
These fictitous facts and more unoprovable allegations coming soon at:
Russkie Georgiekov
Vladimir Martinov
Earl
"spoody" <spo...@spoodyNOSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:3f7d7a99$0$201$7586...@news.frii.net...
Earl
because there was no money in it. My highlight was beating the grandmaster
Robert Byrne in a simultaneous exhibition in my early teens. With an old man
looking over my shoulder and vicariously enjoying the experience, the one
game took hours, and it was exhilirating to have the great player stop to
take more and more time at my board and then ultimately resign.
My last USCF tournament was in 1985 on the campus of UNLV. But I played 86
poker tournaments that year and gave up chess for good. It's somewhat sad
that a game such as poker is much more lucrative than chess, truly the
purest game of all.
"Tom Weideman" <no_spam_i@hortas_rule.net> wrote in message
news:BBA2F078.13DC6%no_spam_i@hortas_rule.net...
> On 10/2/03 11:48 PM, in article
> 63589ccd.03100...@posting.google.com, "stephen"
> <asdfgh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>... I think this is because most reasonably strong chessplayers
Freddy Flares
news:BBA2F078.13DC6%no_spam_i@hortas_rule.net...
My chess grade was around 125 BCF, 1600 ELO when I left my local chess club.
I got tired of travelling to away matches through rain and snow to play a
long game only to blunder it away with a stupid move at the end and then
having to find my way back home.
I play online poker for play money only but I did play amateur poker at the
Mind Sports Olympiad www.msoworld.com a few times and found in general that
master chess players are weaker poker players because they seem unable to
mix up their play. Stuart Reuben and David Levy play a mean game though, if
I try to outplay them I usually come unstuck. The hardest chess players to
beat at poker were the players with a similar grade to myself funnily
enough.
Freddy Flares