Phil Hellmuth - World Class Jerk
Bbxpert
It's the final table of the Razz tournament at the WSOP and Ray
Dehkharghani is heads up with Doyle Brunson. In the middle of the event,
Hellmuth walks into the final table area, stands behind Ray, and says, "So
Doyle, how many bracelets will this make for you?" Ray, to his credit, said
nothing, but how can they allow Hellmuth to do that?
When Phil was eliminated from the holdem event, he practically turned the
table over when he stormed away after first berating the player who beat him. A
real class act.
FLETCH
surgical procedure performed where they removed the end of his penis,
and had it sewed to the end of his tongue. This saves him considerable
time by letting him piss and moan at the same time. A real crybaby by
my standards.
--
been there, done that, can't remember most of it
Note: to reply by e-mail, remove " .nospam " from my
address. FLETCH
Michael J O'Sullivan
And this is the jerk Card Player just did an article on and
identified as one of the current and future champions of poker.
Guys like this are the one of the reasons poker has not made
progress in obtaining wide spread corporate sponsorship. Jerks
like him make NBA players look like role models.
Irish Mike
--
Trapper
How can you trash a guy who is at the final table of the WSOP and needs
to keep leaving the table to consult with his mommy? Wait a minute, I
just answered my own question...
Because he's a jerk *AND* an idiot! Unfortunately, God seems
to look after drunks and fools.
trapper
CP3140
CARD PLAYER HAS NEVER PRAISED PHIL HELLMUTH FOR HIS BEHAVIOR. IN SPITE OF HIS
BEHAVIOR, WE DO RECOGNIZE HIS EXTREME TALENT AS A POKER PLAYER. WE DO NOT IN
ANY WAY ENDORSE OR SUPPORT BEHAVIOR OF THIS KIND AND HAVE WRITTEN SO ON MANY
OCCASIONS. DENNY AXEL, CARD PLAYER CEO
PBO COP
You have to understand Denny......it took alot for him to type that. He is
used to having his secretary do it !! Good to hear from you Denny !!!
Dogballs never lose !!
Miltregina
Two years ago, I played against Phil Hellmuth in the $2500 Pot Limit Omaha
championship. He arrived 40 minutes late in a $2K Versace shirt & proceeded to
dust of $7,500 in about 30 minutes. His elimination occured because he tried
to bluff "the worst player at the table," as he described it. I expected this
from Phil because I know he's obnoxious, but I was disappointed that pros such
as Huck Seed and John Bonnetti came to Phil's defense. These guys
don't seem to comprehend that it is in their interest not to run away
the fish.
Michael845
>His elimination occured because he tried to bluff "the worst player at the
table," as he >described it.
Why was Phil trying to bluff him in the first place? If the guy was such a
fish then he was more likely to call, right? I know it was a tournament but
there are still better places to put your money.
HowardF901
I played 20-40 HE with Phil in 1988 at the L.V. Hilton . He was a loudmouth
jerk then and still is . Just a crybaby who could not win if he didn't play the
talking and berating game .
Hornet
cowboyjoe
Isn't there *anyone* out there who has something kind to say on Phil's
behalf? (I wouldn't know him from Adam, but he must have played in a
civil manner one place or another in the past. Mustn't he have?)
cowboyjoe
Jim Geary
I'll jump in and say that it seems to me some of the
histrionics are in the characterizations. For example,
upon busting out of the Omaha tournament when Q's caught,
the web site said:
"After the fates, Hilbert and the dealer took some abuse,
Phil showed two Kings and mucked his hand. Hilbert flashed
two Queens."
I was on the rail and this is what actually happened:
Phil makes move, Hilbert comes over top ..
and both players show their hands to each other. Both
players had paint so it was hard for me to tell who was
ahead, but at the river Phil grimaced, rapped the table
and said exactly:
"Well, that's just the way it's been going all day."
Shrugged, walked over to his wife and went to do the
paperwork. A few minutes before that, an old friend
had walked into the area, and he bounced up to
introduce him to his wife (this at a time when his demise,
if not imminent, was certainly forseeable). Made me
sad that I had left wife at home for the weekend.
One poster mentions something about a $2000 Versace shirt..
well, who gives a shit? He dresses like he has money
because he does have money, to some degree yours and mine.
Dropping that gives the whole characterization a tone of pettiness.
Tho I'm not from the Bay area, the few times I've seen him at the 101,
he has been pleasant. Seems to me once one person tells a story,
another does and another does and that's all they remember about
a guy who has played nonstop for a dozen years with phenomenal results.
I'm not nominating him for canonization, but I'd say that the coverage
is slanted by all the people who saw him tilt once. This thread
self-selects posters who have something bad to say. Not very many
people are going to post, "well I have nothing to say." I've
never let that stop me. :)
Jim Geary
jaygee at primenet dot com
http://www.primenet.com/~jaygee/
Stephen H. Landrum
Anyone who beats Phil in a hand is the current "worst player at
the table". The label is very short term and changes players
quickly.
I take it you haven't played with Phil before.
--
"Stephen H. Landrum" <slan...@pacbell.net>
KingsFull
In article <355086FF...@here.com>, nos...@here.com says...
> Isn't there *anyone* out there who has something kind to say on Phil's
> behalf? (I wouldn't know him from Adam, but he must have played in a
> civil manner one place or another in the past. Mustn't he have?)
>
> cowboyjoe
>
>
--
__ __ __ __ __
|K |K |K |x |x | KingsFull
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
Barbara Yoon
KingsFull:
> I'm still trying to figure out what a "World Class Jerj" is...
Only a select elite top few of the millions of jerjs in the world today
rightfully can be deemed "world class" -- and no matter what it
might be, Michael Jordan at basketball, Albert Einstein at physics,
Bobby Fischer at chess, Secretariat at the racetrack, Mike Caro
at roulette -- when someone is the very best there is -- "world class"
-- at whatever they do, that in and of itself deserves our great respect
and admiration...OK?!
Dan Waisman
I have had the pleasure of playing Poker with Phil, his wife, and his
sister on many occasions when he lived in Madison.
Phil's behavior was the same as most poker players
I have played with over the years. Tilt happens to all of us,
some display this emotion quietly, other speak out.
Watch his play, not his act. You may learn somthing.
-
DAN WAISMAN SRX...@prodigy.com
Coatie1
>Tilt happens to all of us,
The way he's portrayed is that he's an asshole all the time...>ML><PRE>Subject:
Re: Phil Hellmuth - World Class Jerj
Dr. Danny J. Gerstner
Played with Phil at World Series some years ago in a tournament. He
berated An Tran for his play at the table, I thought he was out of
line, especially since he had on ocassion put An in tournaments. His
behavior has improved in my opinnion since then. I believe he has grown
up. Like all we either become better or worse as we age.
Danny
Shirley Woo
Seems like a lot of people have something bad to say about him because
1. he's a known player (you wouldn't say anything bad about somebody who
nobody knew about)
and
2. he's acted badly often (no one says anything about McEvoy, Seed, or
anyone else really, because it probably doesn't happen with them).
Given all this, it's probably true that he acts like a jerk often, but so
do many 'non-known' poker players.
Jim Geary <jay...@primenet.com> wrote in article
<Pine.BSI.3.96.980506...@usr09.primenet.com>...
MikePaulle
>Given all this, it's probably true that he acts like a jerk often, but so
>do many 'non-known' poker players.
>
>
How many non-known players have made millions of dollars in this business?
Isn't there some point where a normal person would relax a little after so much
success? Or is his tension the reason for his success?
Personally, I think Phil is funny and he makes great copy. The players know
what to expect from him and are not usually offended.
Mike
Michael J O'Sullivan
I do not think there is justification for rude, crude, insulting
or threatening behavior at a poker table - ever. I have played
all over the country and never cease to be amazed at the bad
behavior that is tolerated. I have also heard dozens of dealers
relate their personal bad experiences with players - especially
some of the well known, high limit players. What really astounds
me is that no one has ever waited in the parking lot with a tire
iron for one of these jerks and taken him "off tilt"
permanently.
Irish Mike
--
Stephen H. Landrum
Dan Waisman wrote:
>
> I have had the pleasure of playing Poker with Phil, his wife, and his
> sister on many occasions when he lived in Madison.
> Phil's behavior was the same as most poker players
> I have played with over the years.
I have to disagree. Most poker players don't throw the tantrums
that I've seen Phil throw.
> Tilt happens to all of us,
> some display this emotion quietly, other speak out.
Few where I play throw cards and chips at the dealers and at other
players. Few are as verbally abusive as Phil. I've also seen his
tantrums tolerated when other "lesser known" players would have
been ejected for a month if they pulled the stuff that Phil pulls.
Tilt may happen to everyone, but there are unacceptable ways of
handling being on tilt. I sure hope we never hear a "but I was on
tilt" defense in a murder trial.
Abdul Jalib
"Stephen H. Landrum" <slan...@pacbell.net> writes:
>
> Dan Waisman wrote:
> >
> > I have had the pleasure of playing Poker with Phil, his wife, and his
> > sister on many occasions when he lived in Madison.
> > Phil's behavior was the same as most poker players
> > I have played with over the years.
>
> I have to disagree. Most poker players don't throw the tantrums
> that I've seen Phil throw.
Right, most poker players don't toss a player's chips off the table and
challenge him to go outside for a fight, when his opponent's only crime
was winning the pot. Only a world class jerj would do that. :) That
happened when I was playing 60-120 with him, though fortunately I
wasn't the victim. BTW, what Phil hates more than anything is for
his tantrums to be documented on the net. (And yet he still has his
tantrums.) Document away, I say.
--
Abdul Jalib
Tarl Roger Kudrick
Barbara Yoon (by...@erols.com) wrote:
: KingsFull:
Okay Barbara, you've convinced me.
--Tarl,
World-class prfooreader
John Hartzell
Coatie1 wrote:
> >Tilt happens to all of us,
>
> The way he's portrayed is that he's an asshole all the time...>ML><PRE>Subject:
> Re: Phil Hellmuth - World Class Jerj
That isn't true. He does hate to lose and is quick to explode verbally. I've seen
him come back 15 minutes later, after cooling off and apoligize for his
boorishness. His temper and pride are his biggest tournament poker weaknesses as
far as I'm concerned. With his obvious talent, those who compete with him are
probably glad he is so "tiltable". I never go on tilt, but have almost no poker
talent. I'd trade with him if I could.
Alan Bostick
In article <6it107$ga3$1...@newsreader.digex.net>,
Goddamn young turks putting on airs about being good in my chosen
profession. What the hell kind of bad proofreader are you, spelling
like that? <throws manuscript at the dealer and stomps away from the
table>
Alan "The Phil Helmuth of copyediting" Bostick
--
| Many that live deserve death. And some that die
Alan Bostick | deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do
mailto:abos...@netcom.com | not be too eager to deal out death in judgment.
news:alt.grelb | J. R. R. Tolkien
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick
Chiefchill
What a shame. A guy with so much talent has to be such a loser in what really
counts.
chill
Enter into the rush zone.
Chiefchill (John Scigliano)
Ry1150
He seems to be grown up only when he wins. I think he is the biggest cry baby
in poker today.
Xero Marx
Being successful at a game that's 100% luck is no excuse for rudeness.
(Xero ducks.)
Hipoker
I think you and I go should play head to head and we will see how much luck is
involved!! Should you beat a nobody like me (which I doubt you would) then
you can play a jerj the caliber of Phil and see if your "luck" holds out
Jason Rosenburg
Xero Marx wrote:
> Being successful at a game that's 100% luck is no excuse for rudeness.
>
> (Xero ducks.)
Consistent rudeness is inexcusable.
Consistent good luck is skill.
Xero Marx
I disagree. I may get tilted, and I may play badly, but I NEVER berate
another player for beating me. I figure that's what he was trying to
do.
If someone like Phil the Pill criticises my play when my 2-7 offsuit
knocks down his 3 aces, I just smile and remind him it's not a play
I'd make against a GOOD player.
Xero Marx
hip...@aol.com (Hipoker) wrote:
You don't seem to pick up on facetious remarks very well. Do you
REALLY think anyone on here thinks poker is 100% luck?
(btw, I wouldn't stand a chance against the wealth of guys like
Helmuth or you. The biggest game I play is $20-40 Holdem at the Biloxi
Grand. Don't win much, but have lived off it for some 40 years now.)
Have a nice day. :)
Topset
>I just smile and remind him it's not a play
>I'd make against a GOOD player.
What a great retort. Mind if I use it?
Dave Scharf
My personal favourite (which I might have heard hear first) is:
"I'm sorry, let me finish stacking these chips so that I can give you my
undivided attention."
YOu want to push a person to complete tilt... it's almost guaranteed.
Regards,
Dave Scharf
free issue at http://www.canadianpoker.com
Jason Rosenburg
Dave Scharf wrote:
I once won a big pot by picking off a bluff on the end. When the
local semi-pro loser of the hand started to berate me for playing so
badly I very quietly said, " Gee you should check with your friends, you
have a very obvious tell."
You could have fried an egg on his forehead.and he went on tilt until
he quit the game.
pat gilvary
Barbara Yoon wrote:
>
> KingsFull:
> > I'm still trying to figure out what a "World Class Jerj" is...
>
> Only a select elite top few of the millions of jerjs in the world today
> rightfully can be deemed "world class" -- and no matter what it
> might be, Michael Jordan at basketball, Albert Einstein at physics,
> Bobby Fischer at chess, Secretariat at the racetrack, Mike Caro
> at roulette -- when someone is the very best there is -- "world class"
> -- at whatever they do, that in and of itself deserves our great respect
"World Class". Charles Manson; Ted Bundy; etc. etc. etc.?
Respectfully,
Patj Gilvarj
OneLucky77
>If someone like Phil the Pill criticises my play when my 2-7 offsuit
>I'd make against a GOOD player.
My response is some what different, I smile and say, "GOOD HAND,I never put you
on a tricky hand like this!!!" This type of response encourages bad players to
play these types of hands more and I love to have these folks on the table any
time of day...
As for Phil, I do not care how good or bad you are. If you can not afford it
(financially and emotionally) do not play. Poker is about discipline and self
control....
BTouchberr
Phil is simply the John Mc kenroe of Poker.
PocketKing
A couple of years ago at the WSOP final table (limit hold-em I think) a
foreigner beat Phil in a pot. Phil, in a very loud voice for all the rail to
hear, called him an idiot that couldn't spell poker. The guy just looked at
him and laughed. Steve Morrow said something to Phil at the time and Phil just
said "I'm trying Steve, I'm trying.
Had he said that to me I would of landed an uppercut and ended this
controversy years ago. I felt like jumping over the rail as it was and
knocking him on his ass. Of course he was talking with it at the time.
Alan Bostick
In article <199805190129...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
pocke...@aol.com (PocketKing) wrote:
> Had he said that to me I would of landed an uppercut and ended this
> controversy years ago. I felt like jumping over the rail as it was and
> knocking him on his ass. Of course he was talking with it at the time.
You mean . . . Hellmuth would have put you on tilt???
Carry on, Phil, carry on.
Alan "but leave the poor dealer alone!" Bostick
Michael J. Sussman
Alan Bostick <abos...@netcom.com> wrote:
:
: pocke...@aol.com (PocketKing) wrote:
: >
: > Had he said that to me I would of landed an uppercut and ended this
: > controversy years ago. I felt like jumping over the rail as it was and
: > knocking him on his ass. Of course he was talking with it at the time.
:
: You mean . . . Hellmuth would have put you on tilt???
He puts me on tilt just sitting here reading posts about him. And I've
never even SEEN the guy!
: Carry on, Phil, carry on.
Does every employee of "Arrogant Opinions 'R' Us" condone this type of
behavior?
- Mike
Bartholomew J. Simpson
Denny,
i realize this post was from a while ago - I just realized it was
in my out box and was never sent.
While it's been a while since I read a Card Player (I am about to
re-subscribe), I believe the following question is still appropriate
(that is, I don't believe you have addressed it).
When you do an article on someone, why don't you point out their
bad sides as well?
You claim that Card Player has on many occasions pointed out that
they don't condone this kind of behavior, but do you ever point it out
about specific players when you do articles on them?
A couple of years ago, I was with two others at a final table, one
of who was Men "the Master". Men was drunk, which I was told was NOT
uncommon. This was a bounty tournament, so we all had metal disks to
place into the pot when we were all in - a portion of the prize money
went to pay the bounties.
Situation - NL Hold'em, 3 - handed. We agree that verbal commands
are binding (we all have many chips, so this would save time moving
them in and out - my suggestion that we color-up was turned down).
Men's the SB, I'm the BB. The 3rd person raises. Men says, "all
in". I muck a hand that would have been playable for the raise, but
did not want to get involved in this confrontation (I had reason to
believe that the original raiser was going to call). The other person
says call and then Men says that he didn't say all-in. After a VERY
heated argument, Men is allowed to fold without calling (while half
the rail heard him, the dealer claims they didn't and the tournament
director wasn't paying attention at the time - no, it wasn't Jack).
The very next hand - I'm SB, 3rd person is BB. Men says all-in.
After verifying he is indeed all in this time, I call. After I won
the hand, more unpleasantries were exchanged, and Men threw the metal
disk at me hard enough to break my glasses. Luckily (for one of us -
but I did outweigh him at that time by 150 pounds or so), he was on
the other side of the table and was grabbed by guards. I am then told
by various people that he has been known to act outrageously a LOT
(two separate accounts of him spitting on dealers, countless times he
has cursed dealers and players). However, I pick up the then current
version of Card Player only to read an article about him which, while
reading it, would make you think he was a saint.
In general, the impression I had of a lot of people from reading
Card Player and the reality of what they were like when I actually
played against them were VERY different. If you do stories on people,
why not say what they are really like, instead of making them out to
be people they aren't?
Again, I admit that it has been a while since I read Card Player
(or played in tournaments), so if this question is no longer
appropriate, please let me know. Men may well now be a very nice
person. I don't know one way or the other. I do know that he wasn't
at the time when Card Player wrote an article about him which would
make you think he was upon reading the article. I think that Card
Player was a very good magazine, and look forward to starting to read
it again.
Good Luck,
Bart
On 30 Apr 1998 21:26:25 GMT, you wrote:
cp3...@aol.com (CP3140) wrote:
>CARD PLAYER HAS NEVER PRAISED PHIL HELLMUTH FOR HIS BEHAVIOR. IN SPITE OF HIS
>BEHAVIOR, WE DO RECOGNIZE HIS EXTREME TALENT AS A POKER PLAYER. WE DO NOT IN
>ANY WAY ENDORSE OR SUPPORT BEHAVIOR OF THIS KIND AND HAVE WRITTEN SO ON MANY
>OCCASIONS. DENNY AXEL, CARD PLAYER CEO
Michael J O'Sullivan
Well said bucko - I would like to see CP's response. I think
they have a good magazine and I subscribe and read every issue.
I also understand the business realities of not wanting to offend
your advertisers. However, if CP is interested in being more
than a "happy news gazette" they should report on, and thus
discourage, this type of behavior.
Irish Mike
--
PBO COP
Believe me ... Linda does not condone this behavior in any way. She is very
much against any type of behavior that gives poker a bad image or a bad name.
She has printed in her magazine several times and is very open about it. Denny
is the same way. They both act the same when it comes to playing in the games
as well.
Bartholomew J. Simpson
pbo...@aol.com (PBO COP) wrote:
PBO COP,
There is no doubt in my mind that Linda personally is against any
behavior which gives poker a bad image. While I don't know Denny,
from what I've heard, the same applies to him.
My posting was relating to pointing out specific instances of known
players when they do articles on them, as opposed to making generic
statements about this in general.
Also, I did point out in my post that I haven't read Card Player in
a while, so if they have gone from "this is bad for poker" in general
to "Phil, why did you act like a jerk (jerj, for those here in the NG)
when you lost?" while doing interviews, then my post is out-dated, and
I applaud them for this. If however, they still make generic comments
about poor behavior being bad for poker while doing articles that make
sinners look like saints, my comments are still relevant.
Good Luck,
Bart
Mike Caro
>If however, they still make generic comments
>about poor behavior being bad for poker while doing articles that make
>sinners look like saints, my comments are still relevant.
Still relevant.
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
Jason Rosenburg
PBO COP wrote:
> Believe me ... Linda does not condone this behavior in any way. She
> is very
> much against any type of behavior that gives poker a bad image or a
> bad name.
> She has printed in her magazine several times and is very open about
> it. Denny
> is the same way. They both act the same when it comes to playing in
> the games
> as well.
I don't think that anyone has accused Card Player of condoning poor
behavior.
The criticism seems to be the nonconfrontational stance the magazine
takes.Sure they gave Maria Stern a small slap on the wrist and did
report on the incident of her buying her bracelet last year,but other
than that I can;t recall any other person being censured.
I'm not sure that Card Player is the right medium anyway. It's main
functions seem to be promoting the game of poker, and the cardrooms that
offer it, providing instructional columns and givng us the soft news
about what's going on in the poker communities world wide.I think they
perform those functions very well.
Since their main source of income is from cardroom advertising, and
books we shouldn't expect those areas to be criticized.
I do think they do the poker playing public a disservice however. They
over- glamorize some of the more famous poker players and the
professional poker playing profession.
I think it really is "A tough way to make an easy living". I think they
minimize the difficulties, and degree of skill necessary to be a
successful full time player. It's ALMOST
like they are saying,"come on folks leave that job, lead the exciting
and rewarding life of a poker professional."
Stephen H. Landrum
Bartholomew J. Simpson wrote:
> If however, they still make generic comments
> about poor behavior being bad for poker while doing articles that make
> sinners look like saints, my comments are still relevant.
Would you submit to an interview if you knew the first question
was likely to be something like "So when have you stopped beating
your wife?" Would you let a magazine interview you if they trashed
the last three people they interviewed?
If you read an interview with someone, it's going to be a favorable
interview. To expect anything else is to be unaware of magazine
publishing. It's quite reasonable to do positive interviews, and
to state your editorial opinions elsewhere.
It would be nice if interviews were a little harder edged, but the
reality is that interviews are done with the interviewees
permission, and they won't get permission if the interviews have a
hard edge.
--
"Stephen H. Landrum" <slan...@pacbell.net>
CP3140
We don't advocate that anyone quit their job to become a poker player. It is a
tough way to make a living and Card Player doesn't encourage anyone to do it,
although I certainly enjoyed playing for a living for many years.
Regarding why we don't point out people's flaws, we don't believe that knowing
that someone is a jerk is as important as pointing out that being a jerk isn't
the right way to be. We try not to feature people who are jerks rather than to
feature them and point out their bad points. We certainly are not going to
make someone out to be a saint if he is a jerk, however sometimes we don't know
the true personality in advance of the writing. There are some people who we
write about because of their achievements, but we don't say that they act
properly.
I have personally spent many, many hours talking to some of these players
trying to encourage them to change their obnoxious behavior.
Linda Johnson
Bartholomew J. Simpson
Stephen,
I disagree with the points you have made. Unless the egomaniacs
have changed in the time I've been away, they LIKE seeing their name
in print. It validates their ego. It makes them feel that they
should be allowed to do whatever they want, because without them,
where would poker be? They read the articles and think, "See - I'm
not such a bad guy. So what if I abuse the dealers - they deserve it.
If I was that bad, they wouldn't write these nice articles about me."
If you started asking harder questions and the idiots didn't want
to be interviewed, I think that there are enough poker players that
you could interview that you would not run out of candidates for a
long time.
Tell the jerjs that you will no longer do any articles on them
unless they clean up their act, or that if you do any articles, the
article will expose them for the tantrum throwing, crybabies that they
are. IMO, after getting over the resentment, they will realize that
they are no longer going to see their names in lights (other than
possibly the tournament listings) unless they clean up their act.
To use your example, do you feel that a magazine article about
someone who has been convicted MULTIPLE TIMES of beating their wife
would not touch on the subject at all? Or that the person being
interviewed could object to being asked the question? If they do,
write about them instead of interviewing them.
I think that some people feel they would be giving poker a worse
image if they wrote what some of the elite are truly like. I
personally feel that we need to clean house and start telling it like
it is and tell the jerk(jerj)s to clean up their act if poker is to
break into the mainstream. If someone who is thinking about
sponsoring a poker event comes along and watches some people acting
like babies and then asks who that person is only to be told that they
are a champion, do you feel that this would be good for poker?
Good Luck,
Bart
Bartholomew J. Simpson
cp3...@aol.com (CP3140) wrote:
> There are some people who we
>write about because of their achievements, but we don't say that they act
>properly.
But do you say anything about them acting improperly, even in those
cases where you are aware of improper behavior?
>I have personally spent many, many hours talking to some of these players
>trying to encourage them to change their obnoxious behavior.
Again, I know that this is true. How many have changed due to
discussions with them? This is not meant to be a wise-crack, just a
question to see how effective having a very respected, well-known
publisher talk to these people has been, or if possibly it could be
considered that some other means of getting these people to change
their behavior might be effective.
Good Luck,
Bart
VC61
Jason Rosenburg wrote on May 26:
>Card Player's main functions seem to be promoting the game of poker, and the
cardrooms that offer it, providing instructional columns and givng us the soft
news about what's going on in the poker communities world wide.
Bill Alan responds:
Cardrooms don't "offer" Card Player; they distribute it. Card Player, we must
not forget, is free & paid for by the publisher.
"Soft" news, in the current instance, would be an article critical of Phil
Hellmuth. "Hard" news, which they do very well, is best evidenced by Card
Player's reportage on events like the WSOP.
==================================================
Jason Rosenburg wrote:
>I do think they do the poker playing public a disservice however. They over-
glamorize some of the more famous poker players.
Bill Alan responds:
This is a bit like saying People Magazine has Frank Sinatra on its cover this
week. Let's face it Jason ... Card Player's readers do not want to read about
you and me.
On the other hand, I always enjoy the "Getting To Know" page which frequently
profiles a relative "nobody" in the poker world. Evidence of this is that they
did a page on Bill Alan last February.
===================================================
I think its time we stop trashing Card Player.
Let's value the magazine for what it is ... the best news source on poker most
of us will ever see ... excellent playing advice by people like Caro & Krieger
... superb commentary on the poker world by people like Dalla & Sexton ... and
(yes) the ads, which I often find worthwhile.
If, on the other hand, you were to succeed in convincing Linda, Denny, et al
that they should make bad business decisions you might end up having to PAY for
your copy of Card Player.
Heavens!
Lee Jones
In article <6kgtkp$e1p$1...@camel25.mindspring.com>,
Bartholomew J. Simpson <bartma...@pipeline.com> wrote:
[Linda Johnson said]
>>I have personally spent many, many hours talking to some of these players
>>trying to encourage them to change their obnoxious behavior.
> Again, I know that this is true. How many have changed due to
>discussions with them? This is not meant to be a wise-crack, just a
>question to see how effective having a very respected, well-known
>publisher talk to these people has been... [Snip]
Heh. One of the most key facts about life: "Nobody can change anybody except
themselves." You can be in therapy, or whatever, for a zillion years, and
have the very best therapist available. And it won't do you one *damn*
bit of good unless you have the desire to change.
I think it's honorable and noble of Linda to talk to these guys. IMHO, she's
wasting her valuable time. Now, if ObnoxiousJerk_A or NastyPlayer_B walks
up to Linda and says, "You know, I'm sick and tired of everybody hating me,
and getting time-outs at tournaments, and reading bad things about myself
on the Internet. What can I do?" Well, that's her opening, and there's a
million ways that she and other people can help at that point.
Until then, it's like teaching a pig to sing.
Regards, Lee
Q: How many psychiatrists does it take to change a lightbulb?"
A: One, but it has to *want* to change.
--
Lee Jones | "It's been awhile since I've seen Carolina
le...@sgi.com | It was always pretty this time of year."
650-933-3356 | -Kathy Mattea
http://reality.sgi.com/leej_engr
Jason Rosenburg
VC61 wrote:
I am a paid subscriber, I didn't trash the magazine.I may have
writen something improperly. Imeant that cardplayer promotes card rooms
that offer it (the "it meaning poker,not the magazine)
Coatie1
>HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: A NEW THREAD ON CARD PLAYER
>From: Jason Rosenburg
and if a card room doesn't advertise in card player they dont exist...like
Flamingo
Michael J O'Sullivan
Well said lass. When you are right, you are right. Though I
personally prefer the "wait for them in the parking lot with a
tire iron" approach, I cannot argue with your logic.
Best regards,
Irish Mike
--
PocketKing
>From: le...@diver.engr.sgi.com
>Until then, it's like teaching a pig to sing.
Pigs are very smart animals. Smarter than a horse and smarter than a cow.
I would appreciate it very much if you would stop criticizing pigs because I'm
sure if any animal COULD sing a pig would be the first to pull it off.
RzItUp
On the other hand, I always enjoy the "Getting To Know" page which
profiles a relative "nobody" in the poker world. Evidence of this is that
did a page on Bill Alan last February.<BR>
<BR>
HEY!! I resent that......I was profiled in September of 1997. And to think
you consider me an unknown!!
Jon Wetzel
Coatie1 <coa...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199805280015...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
Not advertising in the cardplayer is the least of the problems the flamingo
"Hilton" has.
PANPERSON
I would never NEVER deal high stakes poker again. There are many nice people
who play high stakes poker - don't get me wrong - and there are many who treat
the dealers with nothing but respect. But there is that small group of
players who will curse the dealer when they loose a hand and stiff them when
they win a hand. Linda wrote an article about that about two years ago. It
was in reference to WSOP 1997 (I believe). She said that if the players would
not tip than the good dealers would not deal. And, of course, she was right.
Dealers do not deal players out of their money. Players play themselves
out of money. They also play themselves into money. Take Harry Truman's
advice. I did.
Now I deal Pan for a living and a very nice one at that.
Lars Ulrich
It's too bad that almost all so called "World Class Players" are real
assholes.
You should try sitting next to a guy like Jon Bonetti if you want to
play with a bitter and mean fella. I was in a tourney with Men a few
years back and he was nice enough to me as he busted me. But as I
watched him play I could see that he could be very arrogant when he was
winnin. I guess it's just the nature of the beast. Card players are
sharks at heart right?
Michael J O'Sullivan
I have been dealing in private and charity games for a long
time and I know this is totally different from the rules and
restrictions involved when you deal for a casino. However, I
have three rules; If you don't toke, that is your decision and I
will never complain about it. If you criticize my dealing, and it
is deserved, I will accept it and try to do better. If you throw
cards in my face, one of us goes to the hospital.
Irish Mike
--
MTHossToo
<snip about dealing experience>
> However, I <BR>
>have three rules; If you don't toke, that is your decision and I <BR>
>will never complain about it. If you criticize my dealing, and it <BR>
>is deserved, I will accept it and try to do better. If you throw <BR>
>cards in my face, one of us goes to the hospital. <BR>
> <BR>
>Irish Mike<BR>
I too used to fling the pasteboards, and I agree wholeheartedly with Irish
Mike, but I have to amend this a little. My amendment is if you threaten to
shoot/stab/do some manner of bodily harm/etc. to me, make the first one count,
cuz you ain't gettin no second chances. In the 5+ years I dealt, was
threatened to be shot twice, stabbed once. Both were bluffing.
Greg
Warren Sander
RE: trashing Card Player... etc
While were at it let me put in my 2 cents..
1) I am a subscriber (first class) so I don't have to depend on the 'kindness
of others' to get card player.
2) I usually read it cover to cover in the first couple of days after it
arrives (usually every other monday)
3) I usually read Nolan's column first (that way I can get my trash comments
to him ASAP :-) )
My Pet peives:
1) That stupid mirage add. ALL that black ink and no message. Come on guys
put something else on your page.
2) Ad's with folks playing poker at blackjack tables...
The worst:
3) Ad's for card rooms in cities I've never heard of that don't put in
the State, Telephone number or any other information that I could use to
get there. All the ad's should have some sort of a clue as to where the room
is located (ie the california ones could say 'near ' some known city..
Editorially I can't fault card player. They can't go and write negitive articles
because that will cause advertisers to leave. Heck, Look at casino player mag.
They have a 'phantom traveler' that isn't allowed to trash the hotels he
stays out cause they might withdraw advertising. While some changes in the
editorial bias of cardplayer MIGHT be good for us the readers it would probably
not be good for overall business Afterall that is what RGP is for. We can
trash anyone we want as much as we want cause we don't have a business to run.
I would like to see card player add additional insightful articles (ie not going
after the players who behave badly but the bad behaviour itself).
Maybe an interview article with several card room managers and how they handle
behaviour problems.
The same with players 'angleing' others.
How they deal with first time players in the room (ie knowledgeable players
who step into a hornet's nest when the go to a new room and do things the
'locals' don't like).
etc..
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Warren Sander OpenVMS Marketing
Digital Equipment Corporation Work: warren...@digital.com
129 Parker Street PK03-2/T20 Personal: san...@ultranet.com
Maynard, MA 01754 (508) 493-5470/0084 voice/fax
My opinions are my own and I only speak for myself
Read http://www.openvms.digital.com/
------------------------------------------------------------------
TIGER123
i think a little history might be in order.
'way 'way back when (in the early 80s), a fellow named mike caro was the
publisher and editor of a 16-page newsletter entitled "poker player". mike had
about two thousand other things going on at the time, and he turned his
editorial duties over to several people, the last of whom was june field, a
professional editor, who had recently won the women's championship at the wsop.
suddenly, "pokerplayer" disappeared.
several months later, during one of my regular adventures in las vegas, i saw a
new magazine, "card player". it had a glossy cover and some 32 or more pages.
june field was the publisher. maryann guberman was part of the editorial
staff.
"card player" grew in size, popularity and quality. many years later, june
sold the magazine to linda johnson and her associates. of course, since it
was the same magazine, subscriptions continued without interruption. maryann
stayed at the magazine, but eventually left due to health reasons.
some years after linda took control of "cardplayer", david sklansky, mason
malmuth, and others started a new magazine, "pokerworld". its premiere
edition, dated january 1995, was actually published january 1996. maryann was
the managing editor, but had no ownership interest.
"pokerworld" published four or five editions, went through numerous changes in
ownership, and disappeared. there was never any word from the owners about the
outstanding subscriptions.
about six months or so ago, someone (robert fieger? feigen?) purchased the name
"pokerworld", and produced one issue. although there was some talk bandied
about pertaining to honoring subscriptions of the old magazine, the new
magazine only lasted one issue and died.
we now hear word of a new magazine, "poker digest", to be published by june
field, and to be edited by maryann guberman. i haven't the foggiest idea why
<greatbrit <pwes...@jps.net>> ascribes any wrongdoing to either of these two
women.
i'm looking forward to the new magazine!
tiger
greatbrit
TIGER123 wrote:
> ...started a new magazine, "pokerworld". its premiere
> edition, dated january 1995, was actually published january 1996. maryann was
> the managing editor, but had no ownership interest.
Was she paid for her services? If she was, didn't the money come at least partly
from people sending in subscription money? I think that makes her partly
responsible to the people that didn't get what they paid for, you think it
doesn't. I have nothing at all against Maryann or June, I wish them all the best.
I think where we differ is that you think only the owner is responsible, I say
anybody who profited from the *theft* of subscription money is responsible.
> i'm looking forward to the new magazine!
So am I. I'm going to check it out in book stores for a while and if it looks
good, and if it's page count increases so I know it has some ad revenue coming in,
I'll maybe subscribe.
Jason Rosenburg
MTHossToo wrote:
What about the third?
E4429G
> many years later, june
>sold the magazine to linda johnson and her associates. of course,
No Honor?
If June sold her magazine, why doesn't she honor her word.
Just because the none compete clause expired does
not mean that you should not honor your word. If June is honorable she should
NOT compete with CP
Robert
James L. Perlowski
Robert,
How come you are such an authority involving every subject
discussed? You are an EXPERT on second hand smoke. An authority on
cancer. A lawyer, doctor, CPA, gaming consultant, teacher, historian
and advisor on ethics. In addition you have all the answers - and now
you are an EXPERT involving the Fields. Get a life!!! You have none
of the facts and as usual voice your authoritative (makes me sick)
opinion as though it were gospel. Stick too smoking - it's the one
subject YOU do the least harm with.
Alan Bostick
In article <6kvqil$f...@panix.com>, dfo...@panix.com (David Foster) wrote:
> PS.
> Something in the spring air has really affected this group. Could it
> just be a strange viagra side effect?
It ain't just this newsgroup; and given which other of my online communities
have gone on tilt the past couple of weeks, I somehow doubt that Viagara
is responsible.
Alan "Paranoia strikes deep" Bostick
--
| Many that live deserve death. And some that die
Alan Bostick | deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do
mailto:abos...@netcom.com | not be too eager to deal out death in judgment.
news:alt.grelb | J. R. R. Tolkien
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick
E4429G
James :
The problem with you is that you don't understand what you read.
Before you make any comments try reading, slowly, and THINK a little bit about
what the other person is saying. I have read many of your postings, over the
last few months, and they tell me only one thing about you:
YOU DON"T KNOW HOW TO THINK..
I don't mind if some one doesn't agree with me. If any one disagrees with what
I say I hope they respond with logical comments and analysis of any issue.
Before I write on a subject I try to understand it . I hope to hear back from
people with similar outlook. If I am wrong I always am willing to learn on the
basis of respect from and to each individual that I "talk" to .
From reading your various posting, your don't have the depth of knowledge or
analystical ability to look at complex issues.
I would prefer if you just don't respond to me or my posting in the future.
Best regards
Robert