Omaha 8-or-better thoughts/questions
Sergey Zhupanov
I find myself infetuated with Omaha 8 as of late, and so I thought I'd
post some thoughts I have about this game, in hopes of generating
a discussion of the more meaningful kind than how to police the IRC
better so that no one cheats, raises, talks, calls, folds, or plays
too much :-)
I am sorry to say to that I have only found 2 printed sources of info
for this game -- Ray Zee's Omaha for Advanced Player (1/2 book) and a
tiny part of Cappelletti on Omaha Booklet. Also, I am quite new to
the game, and I have only played it on IRC. Please consider this a
disclaimer for the stupidities about to follow :)
1) Paranoya about getting quartered: Some people never raise with the
low lock since they are worried they are getting quartered. But, I
think they ar giving away too much info, since every time they raise
you know they have at least the nut high, maybe also the nut low...
I believe that the -EV you have of raising with low lock is small
enough to be worth the cover-up you thus aquire for your raises with
nut-high and nut-both hands.
2) Zee says there is very little slow playing in Omaha 8. However, I
find myself routinely slow-playing when I have a lock in early
position. E.G., I have A2, flop comes 3 4 7. I am second to speak,
there are 4 people behind me, and first player bets. I NEVER raise.
Especially NOT if I have also a good high hand draw. The reason
is that I do not want to chase away the customers behind me.
If I raise, they figure "sergey is a tight player, so now he has a lock,
we don't know what kind of lock, but we know that 1/2 the pot will
have to be shared with sergey at best. So why the heck should we
call now with our 3rd nut draw". However, if I just smooth call,
everyone figures we are all on a draw, the pot is growing, and
everyone calls. Now, if someone in late position raises,
I can re-raise, since they will call, since they figure they already
have a bet invested, so why not chase with 2 more... :-)
I have repeatedly seen 2 nut hands in early positions bet and raise
and chase everyone else out, and then proceed to split a miserable
pot, whereas they could have built a monster pot had they just called.
I believe slow-playing is especially important when you have fish in
the game that are dumb enough to draw to 2nd and 3rd best hands, but
are aware enough to get out when you (tight good players) start jammin'
3) It's worth it to see the turn for ___ small bets when the pot
contains ___ small bets and you have 3 to a nut low, with some good
back-door scoop potential, e.g., you have As 2s 3d 5c, and the flop
comes 4s Qd 9c. I don't have an answer here, but I usually see
the turn for 1 small bet almost regardless of the pot size if I have
3 to a nut low with some back-door scoop potential.
4) When there are 3 or more calling stations in the game -- you want
to loosen up pre-flop if the game is passive, but stay almost as
tight as always on the flop. (True/False)
5) If you flop draws to the nuts for both ends, frequently bet on
a come. This will conceal your hand, and will make them call later
when you have made hands (instead of draws). Again, I think if you
only bet/raise with made nut high hands (or scoops) -- who will call
you?
6) On the end, raise a nut low even if you have just 3 people in
(including you), unless they are total rock players, since you want
them to call you next time when you have a scoop and raise on the
end. If you are in a game with some fish, they will frequently pay
off raises on the end with 2nd 3rd or worse hands on the end.
7) Low pairs are more valuable in this game than in Hi Omaha,
where they are total trash, because if you also have a nut low, or
nut-low-draw, you are less afraid to play in a raised and re-raised
pot, since you may be a winner of 1/2 already, and could actually
scoop.
8) Paradoxically, High pairs go down in value compared to High Omaha,
since now you are REALLY afraid to get into a jammed-up pot, since
you may be shooting for 1/2 only, and have only 1/3 shot at it...
Also, High-pairs mean that even if your other 2 cards are A2,
you have no protection against getting counterfitted, whereas
A233 is much harder to counterfit.
9) Never ever raise pre-flop. Never, ever, never, ever. Except
of course, raise pre-flop every time you decide to play and
there are a bunch of total fish in the game, and they will pay you
off all the way, but do so with, say, upper 1/3 layer of the hands
you play.
All comments/corrections/insults :) will be really appreciated.
cheers,
sergey
Maverick
On 24 Nov 1997, Sergey Zhupanov wrote:
> I find myself infetuated with Omaha 8 as of late, and so I thought I'd
> post some thoughts I have about this game, in hopes of generating
I've heard small casino owners say that Omaha8 would be the death of
poker because all poker players end up wanting to play it but it's too
difficult for new people to risk their money to learn to play. Up here in
Northern California(north of the Bay), Omaha is nearly the only game
played. In fact, the casino near me only plays omaha.
> 1) Paranoya about getting quartered: Some people never raise with the
> low lock since they are worried they are getting quartered. But, I
> think they ar giving away too much info, since every time they raise
> you know they have at least the nut high, maybe also the nut low...
> I believe that the -EV you have of raising with low lock is small
> enough to be worth the cover-up you thus aquire for your raises with
> nut-high and nut-both hands.
In my experience, there is a real danger raising on nut low. 1. you
have a chance of being counterfeited so your low might be worthless. 2.
Frequently, there are two nut lows...or more, so it only makes sense to
raise on low when there is alot of players and you have other nut draws.
I've seen people get quarted on $5000 pots and, although it's humorous to
watch, it's not all that pretty to gaze upon the face of someone with nut
low and second nut high who loses $1250 on a hand.
> 4) When there are 3 or more calling stations in the game -- you want
> to loosen up pre-flop if the game is passive, but stay almost as
> tight as always on the flop. (True/False)
Depends on the players I imagine. The calling stations up here will
fold after the flop if they aren't there and there isn't much of a flop.
However, if you raise pre-flop, the bigger pot will keep them thru the
river almost inevitably.
> 6) On the end, raise a nut low even if you have just 3 people in
> (including you), unless they are total rock players, since you want
> them to call you next time when you have a scoop and raise on the
> end. If you are in a game with some fish, they will frequently pay
> off raises on the end with 2nd 3rd or worse hands on the end.
I think this is poor advice. The people I've seen who raise on low at
the river on a 3 person hand generally get their ass kicked in the long
run.
> 7) Low pairs are more valuable in this game than in Hi Omaha,
No one plays Omaha hi, Not around here anyways.
Will Hyde
Sergey Zhupanov wrote:
>
> 2) Zee says there is very little slow playing in Omaha 8. However, I
> find myself routinely slow-playing when I have a lock in early
> position. E.G., I have A2, flop comes 3 4 7. I am second to speak,
> there are 4 people behind me, and first player bets. I NEVER raise.
> Especially NOT if I have also a good high hand draw. The reason
> is that I do not want to chase away the customers behind me.
Holding A2 with a flop of 3-4-7 is not a lock.
--
________________________________________________________________________
___ The most important question you ever have is the very first one: ___
_______________________ SHOULD I PLAY THIS HAND? _______________________
____________ http://www.whitestone.com/library/pockets.htm _____________
Colin
I'm no expert (a little experience at 5-10, and a little against a
surprisingly
tough 2-4 field) but that has never stopped me from opening my yap
before...
Sergey Zhupanov wrote:
> 1) Paranoya about getting quartered: Some people never raise with the
> low lock since they are worried they are getting quartered. But, I
> think they ar giving away too much info, since every time they raise
> you know they have at least the nut high, maybe also the nut low...
> I believe that the -EV you have of raising with low lock is small
> enough to be worth the cover-up you thus aquire for your raises with
> nut-high and nut-both hands.
Tough call. Must have a good read on your opponents. Very dependant onthe
number of players who start the hand, and if any are capable of laying
down A2 before the flop if they have nothing to go with. The 5-10 games
I've been in, I've been the only one folding hands like Q92A rainbow.
Did you reraise the flop with backdoor low and a srt8 flush draw? Low
comes
go ahead and raise. Three low cards on the flop, proceed more cautiously.
>
>
> 2) Zee says there is very little slow playing in Omaha 8. However, I
> find myself routinely slow-playing when I have a lock in early
> position. E.G., I have A2, flop comes 3 4 7. I am second to speak,
> there are 4 people behind me, and first player bets. I NEVER raise.
> Especially NOT if I have also a good high hand draw. The reason
> is that I do not want to chase away the customers behind me.
>
> If I raise, they figure "sergey is a tight player, so now he has a lock,
> we don't know what kind of lock, but we know that 1/2 the pot will
> have to be shared with sergey at best. So why the heck should we
> call now with our 3rd nut draw". However, if I just smooth call,
> everyone figures we are all on a draw, the pot is growing, and
> everyone calls. Now, if someone in late position raises,
> I can re-raise, since they will call, since they figure they already
> have a bet invested, so why not chase with 2 more... :-)
>
> I have repeatedly seen 2 nut hands in early positions bet and raise
> and chase everyone else out, and then proceed to split a miserable
> pot, whereas they could have built a monster pot had they just called.
> I believe slow-playing is especially important when you have fish in
> the game that are dumb enough to draw to 2nd and 3rd best hands, but
> are aware enough to get out when you (tight good players) start jammin'
>
I think this depends alot on how live your high draws are and how well
protectedyour low draw is. If your low is well protected (A24 in hand and
378 flops) fine slow
play if not, I tend to put my money in quickly, while I'm ahead.
> 3) It's worth it to see the turn for ___ small bets when the pot
> contains ___ small bets and you have 3 to a nut low, with some good
> back-door scoop potential, e.g., you have As 2s 3d 5c, and the flop
> comes 4s Qd 9c. I don't have an answer here, but I usually see
> the turn for 1 small bet almost regardless of the pot size if I have
> 3 to a nut low with some back-door scoop potential.
>
Hmmm.... Hard one. perfect turn gives you a good draw. Probablynot
enough to call esp. if I think there is any chance of a raise behind me.
If the big Wrap str8 draw or top trips is out there they should be jamming
to prevent just this kind of attempted suckout.
4) When there are 3 or more calling stations in the game -- you want
> to loosen up pre-flop if the game is passive, but stay almost as
> tight as always on the flop. (True/False)
>
Nah, still play to scoop, even pre-flop. Loosening has always beenhugely
problematic for me, and when the game gets short-handed I regularly
get creamed (not at the Casino, but at the home game). Another fine reason
to
take this advice with a grain of salt.
> 5) If you flop draws to the nuts for both ends, frequently bet on
> a come. This will conceal your hand, and will make them call later
> when you have made hands (instead of draws). Again, I think if you
> only bet/raise with made nut high hands (or scoops) -- who will call
> you?
>
Of Course! Heck, Check-raise/Call-Raise/Re-raise with draws to both. Again
even if it winds up that you are up against a monster and toss in
a fraction of a BB in EV, you make it up when people call you when
you have the goods.
> 6) On the end, raise a nut low even if you have just 3 people in
> (including you), unless they are total rock players, since you want
> them to call you next time when you have a scoop and raise on the
> end. If you are in a game with some fish, they will frequently pay
> off raises on the end with 2nd 3rd or worse hands on the end.
>
See 1)
> 7) Low pairs are more valuable in this game than in Hi Omaha,
> where they are total trash, because if you also have a nut low, or
> nut-low-draw, you are less afraid to play in a raised and re-raised
> pot, since you may be a winner of 1/2 already, and could actually
> scoop.
>
Yes, more valuable than in high.
> 8) Paradoxically, High pairs go down in value compared to High Omaha,
> since now you are REALLY afraid to get into a jammed-up pot, since
> you may be shooting for 1/2 only, and have only 1/3 shot at it...
> Also, High-pairs mean that even if your other 2 cards are A2,
> you have no protection against getting counterfitted, whereas
> A233 is much harder to counterfit.
>
Don't undervalue the 4 high card hand. If it hits it will frequently
scoop,and if it misses it is usually easy to throw away.
> 9) Never ever raise pre-flop. Never, ever, never, ever. Except
> of course, raise pre-flop every time you decide to play and
> there are a bunch of total fish in the game, and they will pay you
> off all the way, but do so with, say, upper 1/3 layer of the hands
> you play.
Perhaps the most successful player in our 2-4 game almost never
calls an unraised pot preflop. He raises or tosses it. No doubt
cranks up the variance but he usually winds up in fairly short handed
pots just because when he is in late position it is hard to call from early
position knowing that you will have the aggressor on your left. Its fun
to reraise him when you have a really premium hand but then its normally
heads up and I have to worry about being outplayed post-flop.
All comments/corrections/insults :) will be really appreciated.
> cheers,
> sergey
Crazy Game Omaha....
--
Colin Bown co...@hep.uchicago.edu
Abrogator
Sergey writes:
>9) Never ever raise pre-flop. Never, ever, never, ever. Except
>of course, raise pre-flop every time you decide to play and
>there are a bunch of total fish in the game, and they will pay you
>off all the way, but do so with, say, upper 1/3 layer of the hands
>you play.
Never say never. To me, raising in any game depends on all kinds of different
factors including opposition, my image at the time, position etc. This
definately applies to pre-flop raising in Omaha.
It goes along the lines of that if you think you have the best hand you should
be putting in as many bets as possible. Of course , the best starting hands in
Omaha split are hands that can win both ways, and you will almost always be
drawing after the flop. My point is, that raising pre-flop in Omaha split
makes just as much sense as in Texas Hold'em, the only major difference being
that you will be drawing more often. Another thing is that just as in texas
hold'em, you shouldn't be too predictable w/ your raises. So mix it up.
I think that by never ( or almost never ) raising pre-flop in omaha split you
are losing out on extra bets. So if you are not overly predictable with your
raises pre-flop, raising is to your advantage in many situations. The only
thing you have to decide is which hands are raise worthy and fire away.
Abrogator
WenMax
I like to raise Pre-flop with hands like ten-jack-queen-king in Omaha 8; not
only because you can scoop and get away from the hand easily if you miss the
flop, but also because people will automatically put you on Ace Duece.