Saule Omarova

[da pickle]

This will be ignored. Can total socialism be avoided? Is capitalism to
be abandoned completely? Is this our future?

Winston Churchill said it best:

“The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings;
the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

https://winstonchurchill.hillsdale.edu/socialism-is-the-philosophy-of-failure-winston-churchill/


Is it time for the USA to fail?

[Grunty]

Woke up in a political-philosophical mood today? Rather than tired churchillisms, try this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/02/05/right-needs-stop-falsely-claiming-that-nazis-were-socialists/

[risky biz]

~ Is it time for the USA to fail?

The USA did almost fail in the 2008 financial meltdown brought to us compliments of the same gang that is mounting a slander campaign against Saule Omarova. They hate her because she's proposing structural changes that will help prevent a repeat of 2008 and also impinge their ability to leverage public resources in their speculative manipulation.

You have it bass-ackward.

[Dutch]

Relax pickle, the USA is well on track to fall to right wing
authoritarianism long before communism gets a sniff. I have no doubt
you'll be perfectly fine with that. Just stay down there on your own
side of the 49th will you, we still love our democracy up here in The
Great White North.

[da pickle]

I am surprised that you post this, risky ... capitalism is what made the
USA the most advanced nation in the world and was heaven for immigrants
everywhere else in the world.

"Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the
means of production and their operation for profit. Central
characteristics of capitalism include capital accumulation, competitive
markets, a price system, private property and the recognition of
property rights, voluntary exchange and wage labor."

The problem is that laissez-faire capitalism (no government interference
in "business" activities) gives rise to many problems that only
government can solve ... bad business practices, monopolies, sweat
shops, slavery ... the rise of unions to fight some of the evil ...
fortunately, our "founders" decided to find a way to stem the tide of
unregulated capitalism ... a divided country into States (with all the
power not specifically given to the federal folks) and an extremely
limited overall federal government, divided and hopefully unable to
"take over everything".

"Socialism is a political, social, and economic philosophy encompassing
a range of economic and social systems characterized by social ownership
of the means of production and democratic control, such as workers'
self-management of enterprises."

There is nothing wrong with socialism until it "goes too far" ... then
it start to become its own version of a monopoly of all and everything ...

Fascists and Communists are not that different ... maybe Kingdoms and
Mobsters are not that different sometimes. Benevolent dictators might
be perfect ... put GOD in charge ... problems seem to come with that
idea. There is always a Stalin in the wings for attempts to put "the
people" (democracy?) in charge of everything.

I do not like Fascist and I do not like Communists ...

The financial road to ruin that the USA is following has nothing to do
with either capitalism or socialism, it has to do with "politicians"
wanting to be in charge of "everything". It does not matter which
political party one wants to love or hate ... they are both (and all if
you want to include outliers) power. Absolute power leads to disaster
and that is the direction we are headed.

There may be no hope ... but to put a person in charge of "money" who is
a lover of "socialism" over "capitalism" is not a good thing.

"Capitalism" is about freedom from the sort of central control
represented best with the word "socialism".


This is a great map of all countries based on "freedom" ... an
important. When we visited Australia and New Zealand, I saw what I
loved about capitalism. Have not been to Singapore yet, but this chart
makes a visit added to my bucket list.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/capitalist-countries


An oldie but goodie:

https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/why-socialism-always-fails/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=markperry&gclid=CjwKCAjwq9mLBhB2EiwAuYdMtQZcVKxJHmq6Fjyf9Unl0KykHYZ606c3_y0DeATb4kvrOIfm67rGGBoCmIUQAvD_BwE

[BTSinAustin]

On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 6:39:37 PM UTC-4, Dutch wrote:
> On 2021-10-24 6:41 a.m., da pickle wrote:
> >
> > This will be ignored. Can total socialism be avoided? Is capitalism to
> > be abandoned completely? Is this our future?
> >
> > Winston Churchill said it best:
> >
> > “The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings;
> > the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.”
> >
> > "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the
> > gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
> >
> > https://winstonchurchill.hillsdale.edu/socialism-is-the-philosophy-of-failure-winston-churchill/
> >
> >
> >
> > Is it time for the USA to fail?
> Relax pickle, the USA is well on track to fall to right wing
> authoritarianism long before communism gets a sniff. I have no doubt

Nah it's about 50/50 which side will end up as the dictator party. Just listen to the ministry of truth.

[BillB]

NOBODY is talking about the workers taking over the means of production in the US (real socialism). What the left is looking for is a social democracy, like the ones that exist in the world's happiest (i.e. most successful) countries. Happiness is the bottom line ingredient in all success. Right now, far too large a percentage of the American public is miserable (UNhappy) because they have been shut out in the cold, while the rich celebrate like they are on a cruise ship vacation. In other words, far too much income inequality. Look how out of control the ratio between CEO and worker pay has become. This isn't your parent's USA. It's now being run by self-dealing grifters.

[risky biz]

On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 5:03:55 AM UTC-7, da pickle wrote:

~ I am surprised that you post this, risky

You shouldn't be.

'... capitalism is what made the

> USA the most advanced nation in the world and was heaven for immigrants
> everywhere else in the world.
>
> "Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the
> means of production and their operation for profit. Central
> characteristics of capitalism include capital accumulation, competitive
> markets, a price system, private property and the recognition of
> property rights, voluntary exchange and wage labor."
>

~ The problem is that laissez-faire capitalism (no government interference

> in "business" activities) gives rise to many problems that only
> government can solve ... bad business practices,

One of those 'bad business practices' is major banks employing a government backup to support their highly speculative, virtually unregulated financial skullduggery which provides not only a zero benefit to the American taxpayers and deposit holders whose personal capital is hijacked but threatens their very livelihoods and survival as is made abundantly clear from recent history. We are still laboring under the effects.

> monopolies, sweat
> shops, slavery ... the rise of unions to fight some of the evil ...
> fortunately, our "founders" decided to find a way to stem the tide of
> unregulated capitalism ... a divided country into States (with all the
> power not specifically given to the federal folks) and an extremely
> limited overall federal government, divided and hopefully unable to
> "take over everything".

The 'Founders' and divided sovereignty did absolutely NOTHING to regulate capitalism. They wouldn't recognize the modern contours of 'capitalism' and would very likely be horrified by it. Reference Thomas Jefferson's comments on corporations for a similar example.

> "Socialism is a political, social, and economic philosophy encompassing
> a range of economic and social systems characterized by social ownership
> of the means of production and democratic control, such as workers'
> self-management of enterprises."
>
> There is nothing wrong with socialism until it "goes too far" ... then
> it start to become its own version of a monopoly of all and everything ...
>
> Fascists and Communists are not that different ... maybe Kingdoms and
> Mobsters are not that different sometimes. Benevolent dictators might
> be perfect ... put GOD in charge ... problems seem to come with that
> idea. There is always a Stalin in the wings for attempts to put "the
> people" (democracy?) in charge of everything.
>
> I do not like Fascist and I do not like Communists ...
>
> The financial road to ruin that the USA is following has nothing to do
> with either capitalism or socialism, it has to do with "politicians"
> wanting to be in charge of "everything". It does not matter which
> political party one wants to love or hate ... they are both (and all if
> you want to include outliers) power. Absolute power leads to disaster
> and that is the direction we are headed.
>

~ There may be no hope ... but to put a person in charge of "money" who is

> a lover of "socialism" over "capitalism" is not a good thing.

If this is a reference to Omarova you have yet to provide any compelling evidence. The state participation in the bailout of the US banking system was state intervention at its most heavyhanded. Omarova is proposing systemic changes which would prevent a repeat of that. So she is the OPPOSITE of what you are describing her as.

> "Capitalism" is about freedom from the sort of central control
> represented best with the word "socialism".
>
>

~ This is a great map of all countries based on "freedom" ... an

> important. When we visited Australia and New Zealand, I saw what I
> loved about capitalism. Have not been to Singapore yet, but this chart
> makes a visit added to my bucket list.
>
> https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/capitalist-countries

You'd better get your eyes checked. New Zealand has a mixed public-private system for delivering healthcare and state-owned television service.

[Dutch]

What evidence do you have that The Democratic Party is attempting to
subvert democracy? Help me out, I don't see it. I can supply a long list
of ways that The GOP is doing it.

[Bill Vanek]

On Oct 25, 2021, Dutch wrote
(in article <sl7740$5ol$1...@dont-email.me>):

No, Leni. We don’t expect you to see anything negative about the left. You
have a job to do.

[Tim Norfolk]

Here is something which I wrote elsewhere, a few years ago:

_______________________________________________________
It is frequently asserted by conservatives that private enterprise is always superior to government action. The support for this is anecdotal stories of government inefficiency, and the idea that competition drives all innovation.
But is it really true?
Before our society fell into the pit of “I've got mine” in the mid-1980's and started to pretend that we could have everything we wanted without paying for it, here are some of the things that the government used our tax funds to do:
- start Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, saving a generation from dire poverty and possible civil war in the Great Depression.
- built a fantastic National Park System
- helped to save freedom in World War II, and to rebuild Germany and Japan afterwards to prevent global war from happening again
- built the Interstate highway system
- cleaned the air and water in places like Los Angeles
- started the nuclear power industry
- started the electronics industry
- started the computer age
- started the modern drug age, developing the first antibiotics, and things like the Epipen
- landed humans on the Moon
Most of these things were of no interest to the business community before they were developed, because the pay-offs were too far in the future at the time. Once the concept was proven, they swooped in and sucked up all of the profits from the taxpayer-funded research and infrastructure.
Now let's look at some of the negative parts of competitive private enterprise:
- we tried to privatize much of the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts to avoid a draft, and ended up with gasoline delivered there by Halliburton for $15+ a gallon, and dozens of Afghanis beaten to death at Khandahar airfield by Blackwater operatives, in our name
- even though the average private school underperforms public schools in standard measures, certain parties pushed the charter and voucher movements. The charters in Ohio are so underperforming that they are the laughing-stock of the charter movement itself
- the state universities in the country are a bargain, producing top-quality teaching and research at 40-50% of the cost per student of private universities, yet get little but criticism and more funding cuts
- we used the overflow of convictions from the War on Drugs to fund a system of private prisons, which turned out to be at least as expensive as public ones, and totally corrupt, with many judges bribed to give longer sentences
- we have the most expensive per capita healthcare system in the world, with some of the worst outcomes in the developed world. Until the ACA, the majority of that spending went directly to the insurance companies, which might be a win for capitalism, but makes mockery of the 'competition' idea.
In short, except for the shuddering fear that Americans experience at the word 'socialism', we actually seem to like the concept, when we look at individual ideas.

[VegasJerry]

You don't have to. The first indictments have already been issued.

[Dutch]

Is that the "Royal We"?

> don’t expect you to see anything negative about the left. You
> have a job to do.

There is lots to criticize about the left, but we're talking about
subverting democracy, try to keep up.

[BillB]

We = vanek and "the voices".

[risky biz]

On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 2:31:27 PM UTC-7, Bill Vanek wrote:
> On Oct 25, 2021, Dutch wrote

> > What evidence do you have that The Democratic Party is attempting to
> > subvert democracy? Help me out, I don't see it.

~ No, Leni. We don’t expect you to see anything negative about the left. You

> have a job to do.

I think he was expecting you to have some evidence, though.

[Bill Vanek]

On Oct 25, 2021, Tim Norfolk wrote
(in article<8955aeb1-cfdf-4a33...@googlegroups.com>):

> we have the most expensive per capita healthcare system in the world, with
> some of the worst outcomes in the developed world

Total bullshit. You should know that, considering that interest you claim to
have in valid data and valid analysis.

[Bill Vanek]

On Oct 25, 2021, Dutch wrote

(in article <sl7hav$19j$1...@dont-email.me>):

You’re only criticism ever has been that they are not far enough left.

[Satoshi Popinjay]

Who is Leni? I'm confused.

[risky biz]

~ Who is Leni? I'm confused.

I thought you would know that, Paul.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leni_Riefenstahl

[Splashie]

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/health-care-costs-by-country

"Every country has different healthcare costs. Twenty-three countries spend more than $3,000 on healthcare per capita based on 2018 data. According to the OECD, the ten countries that spend the most on healthcare per person are:

United States ($10,586)
Switzerland ($7,317)
Norway ($6,187)
Germany ($5,986)
Sweden ($5,447)
Austria ($5,395)
Denmark ($5,299)
Netherlands ($5,288)
Luxembourg ($5,070)
Australia ($5,005)
The United States spends the most on healthcare per person every year. With a per person cost of $10,586, the United States spends more than $3,000 more per person than the second-highest country Switzerland. U.S. households spent $980 billion on healthcare in 2017, which is about $3,200 per person. Despite spending the most on healthcare, health outcomes in the United States are not any better than other countries. One reason that the United States’ healthcare is so expensive is because of administrative costs, which account for about one-quarter of all healthcare costs, followed by the rising cost of drugs."

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2020/jan/us-health-care-global-perspective-2019

"Compared to peer nations, the U.S. has among the highest number of hospitalizations from preventable causes and the highest rate of avoidable deaths."

Looks like Tim was spot-on. And this was all pre-COVID data - it'd be hard to argue that the US hasn't handled the pandemic about as badly as possible given our resources - we're back up to 16th in per-capita deaths with basically every country that's ahead of us being in either South America or Eastern Europe.

Michael

[BillB]

On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 7:24:13 PM UTC-7, Splashie wrote:

> Looks like Tim was spot-on. And this was all pre-COVID data - it'd be hard to argue that the US hasn't handled the pandemic about as badly as possible given our resources - we're back up to 16th in per-capita deaths with basically every country that's ahead of us being in either South America or Eastern Europe.
>

In fairness, that's only because the supply chain issues slowed the delivery of horse paste.

[Dutch]

I did not. I expected him to do exactly what he did, divert.

[Dutch]

Not true, I think Bernie's Medicare for all plan is unrealistic. I
dislike cancel culture and over the top political correctness. That's a
short list. I also think the Democrats are politically naive. They say
that they see the existential threat to democracy today's Trumpist GOP
poses but they seem to be fighting like it's a normal political
environment, still talking about "bipartisanship" ffs. It's the scorpion
and the frog.

[BillB]

On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 11:59:04 PM UTC-7, Dutch wrote:

>I think Bernie's Medicare for all plan is unrealistic.

You just triggered riskytard big time.

[Tim Norfolk]

Which part are you arguing?

The US spends more public money per capita on healthcare (Medicare, Medicaid and the VA) than the rest of industrialized world, not counting the private insurance market.

As for outcomes, we have some of the worst longevity, plus one of the highest rates of infant mortality.

[Bill Vanek]

On Oct 26, 2021, Tim Norfolk wrote
(in article<01305592-82e0-4e1a...@googlegroups.com>):

> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 8:52:17 PM UTC-4, Bill Vanek wrote:
> > On Oct 25, 2021, Tim Norfolk wrote
> > (in article<8955aeb1-cfdf-4a33...@googlegroups.com>):
> > > we have the most expensive per capita healthcare system in the world, with
> > > some of the worst outcomes in the developed world
> > Total bullshit. You should know that, considering that interest you claim to
> > have in valid data and valid analysis.
>
> Which part are you arguing?

Outcomes. Infant mortality, for one is measured differently by other
countries, and longevity has its own explanations, unrelated to healthcare.
Want to talk about demographics?

[BillB]

Good point...don't count those nasty brown people...they're barely Americans anyway. Right?

[Bill Vanek]

On Oct 26, 2021, BillB wrote
(in article<ee171481-4f37-4d43...@googlegroups.com>):

Not color, culture and the attendant personal habits. You murder enough young
people, average life expectancy goes down. Same with oxycodone, etc. But
that’s all common sense. No place for that in the liberal world. Do you
understand that availability of healthcare correlates poorly with overall
health and longevity? Apparently no liberal understands that, either.

[BillB]

Right...count all the other countries' social problems in the stats, but DON'T count the US's because that won't make reality look quite as bad for the US. Gotcha.

[Bill Vanek]

On Oct 26, 2021, BillB wrote

(in article<7ae28df8-304b-448b...@googlegroups.com>):

There are studies...

[BillB]

You hear the same "argument" from innumerate right-wingers all the time. "If we don't count this group of Americans, and that group of Americans, and that other group of Americans, our gun stats aren't that much worse than Canada's!" lol ooooooook.

[Bill Vanek]

On Oct 26, 2021, BillB wrote

(in article<79b6036d-356d-4ec5...@googlegroups.com>):

I finally found you on the internet. I will be exposing you later today.

[BillB]

Finally, eh? How long did you search? Obsessed much?

[Splashie]

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 10:45:15 AM UTC-7, Bill Vanek wrote:
> On Oct 26, 2021, BillB wrote
> (in article<7ae28df8-304b-448b...@googlegroups.com>):
> > On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 10:21:23 AM UTC-7, Bill Vanek wrote:
> > > On Oct 26, 2021, BillB wrote
> > > (in article<ee171481-4f37-4d43...@googlegroups.com>):

> > > > Good point...don't count those nasty brown people...they're barely
> > > > Americans
> > > > anyway. Right?
> > > Not color, culture and the attendant personal habits. You murder enough
> > > young
> > > people, average life expectancy goes down. Same with oxycodone, etc. But
> > > that’s all common sense. No place for that in the liberal world. Do you
> > > understand that availability of healthcare correlates poorly with overall
> > > health and longevity? Apparently no liberal understands that, either.
> >
> > Right...count all the other countries' social problems in the stats, but
> > DON'T count the US's because that won't make reality look quite as bad for
> > the US. Gotcha.
> There are studies...

And what percentage of THOSE studies will be eventually debunked?

Michael

[VegasJerry]

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 8:59:34 AM UTC-7, Tim Norfolk wrote:
> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 8:52:17 PM UTC-4, Bill Vanek wrote:
> > On Oct 25, 2021, Tim Norfolk wrote
> > (in article<8955aeb1-cfdf-4a33...@googlegroups.com>):
> > > we have the most expensive per capita healthcare system in the world, with
> > > some of the worst outcomes in the developed world
> > Total bullshit. You should know that, considering that interest you claim to
> > have in valid data and valid analysis.
> Which part are you arguing?
>
> The US spends more public money per capita on healthcare (Medicare, Medicaid and the
> VA) than the rest of industrialized world, not counting the private insurance market.

I can attest to that. Republicans, being controlled – bribed – by the medical profession,
including big Pharma, have blocked Medicaid in hillbilly country; and block Medicare from being
able to negotiate prices with Big Pharma. My cancer pills cost $1,500 a day.

Republicans are still trying to allow your medical insurance company to drop you for
Preexisting conditions. Trump still has a bill before SCOTUS to do just that.

When that happens, I will have to sell my home, sell one car, deplete all that money
And our savings, before Medicaid can pay for the pills. And THEN Medicaid can
negotiate prices.

This is an item I run in the face the idiots here. “If you don’t want to lose your
Health insurance, why are you voting Republican?” Replies are silence.

> As for outcomes, we have some of the worst longevity, plus one of the highest
> rates of infant mortality.

Do you vote Republican? If you do, why?

[Bill Vanek]

On Oct 26, 2021, Splashie wrote
(in article<304af2e9-c70c-40e7...@googlegroups.com>):

I don’t think biased studies belong to just one side, so about the same
percentage as the rest of the studies out there.

[Tim Norfolk]

Based on what, exactly?

[Bill Vanek]

On Oct 26, 2021, Tim Norfolk wrote

(in article<bf611f81-f64b-4625...@googlegroups.com>):

On what I read. The same thing that anyone can read.

[VegasJerry]

Hmmm. Nobody can explain why they vote Republican.
Are they starting to think for themselves now?

“Do you want to lose your healthcare for preexisting conditions?”
“Do you want the rich, that pay no taxes, to pay taxes?”
“Do you want to save the environment?”
“Do you want childcare tax credits?”
“Do you want better healthcare?”
“Do you want your drugs cheaper by letting Medicare negotiate prices with Big Pharma?”
“Do you want your state officials to be able to cancel your vote?”
“Do you want dental, hearing and vision added to your Medicare?”

Then why are you voting Republican?

[risky biz]

On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 7:24:13 PM UTC-7, Splashie wrote:

Here's some math for you:

$10,586 (US)
$7,317 - (Switzerland)
--------------------------
$3,269 =

331,000,000 × (population)
--------------------------
1,082,039,000,000 = (per year total cost)

10 × (years)
--------------------------
$10,820,390,000,000 = amount U.S. could save in 10 years if all it did was match the costs of the second highest cost country, Switzerland. All the U.S. would have to do is gain control over administrative costs and drug costs, i.e., implement universal healthcare the purpose of which is to do exactly that.

Yet, your asshole rhetorical partner in Vancouver claimed over and over again that universal healthcare was FAR TOO EXPENSIVE (!) for the U.S. to afford. You never had a problem with his 'math' but you spent WEEKS focused on whether I was off by six months or less when I mentioned his year of birth.

You're a dumb cocksucker.

[risky biz]

On Tuesday, October 26, 2021 at 12:07:51 AM UTC-7, BillB wrote:
> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 11:59:04 PM UTC-7, Dutch wrote:
>

> >I think Bernie's Medicare for all plan is unrealistic.

~ You just triggered riskytard big time.

Check your math below, Free🧀Gov'tCheeseBoy in Vancouver. Canadian taxpayers are groaning under the costs they've paid for your lifelong support.

[risky biz]

~ Good point...don't count those nasty brown people...they're barely Americans anyway. Right?

Which brown people are you referring to? The ones lacking healthcare? You cut and pasted every lie in the right wing propaganda manual to argue against universal healthcare during the 2020 Democratic primaries. In other words, you;'re they're worst enemy. Except the criminal brown people. You love them.

Two-faced hypocrite much?

[risky biz]

~In other words, you;'re they're worst enemy. Except the criminal brown people. You love them.
>
> Two-faced hypocrite much?

you're their

[da pickle]

On 10/26/2021 1:04 PM, Bill Vanek wrote:
> On Oct 26, 2021, BillB wrote

>> You hear the same "argument" from innumerate right-wingers all the time. "If
>> we don't count this group of Americans, and that group of Americans, and that
>> other group of Americans, our gun stats aren't that much worse than
>> Canada's!" lol ooooooook.
>
> I finally found you on the internet. I will be exposing you later today.

I guess not.

[Bill Vanek]

On Nov 2, 2021, da pickle wrote
(in article<_6qdnRutW5v9NRz8...@giganews.com>):

Got busy, got lazy.