Federal crime committed by Commerce casino
Abdul Jalib M'hall
Today, the manager of Commerce cardroom/casino in Commerce (LA),
denied me a safe deposit box because I refused to give my social
security number. As I understand it, Commerce casino has committed
a federal crime by doing so. It's just the principle of the thing
for me... don't look at me like I'm doing something wrong, Commerce
casino is the criminal here!
I believe it is not lawful to withhold services on demand of social
security number unless you are *required* by federal law to obtain the
number for the feds, such as with the federal 10K forms. I informed
the manager that Commerce was breaking Federal law and explained why,
to no effect. He seemed confused by the fact that in some cases,
such as the 10K thing, they are required to get the social security
number, thinking that gives them license to demand the social security
number whenever they please for no reason. He stated that in
order to please the Federal government, in case of a raid, he felt
he should gather as many social security numbers as possible even when
there is no requirement by Federal government to do so.
In order to make Commerce casino stop breaking Federal law, I was
thinking of writing a letter to law enforcement, cc'ed to the
Commerce casino. But which law enforcement? The local D.A. and
police? Or a federal agency, like, what, the F.B.I.? Probably
Commerce seeing a letter that was sent to the F.B.I. would get
the quickest results, even if the F.B.I. immediately sends the
letter to the shredder as outside their jurisdiction. :)
What are the legal ramifications of breaking this federal law?
It's a "federal crime" which is like a "felony", right? Fines?
Jail time in nasty Federal prisons? (If the punishments are
nasty, like they would get sent to the rack or something, then I
would be less likely to try to bring the long arm of the Feds
down on Commerce.)
--
Abdul | I'm a Libertarian, and I'm going to cling to the one right left to
Jalib | me in this country, the right to not give my social security number
M'hall | unless required to do so by the Federal (not state) government.
Dennis Yelle
In article <mhallDr...@netcom.com> mh...@netcom.com (Abdul Jalib M'hall) writes:
[...]
>In order to make Commerce casino stop breaking Federal law, I was
>thinking of writing a letter to law enforcement, cc'ed to the
>Commerce casino. But which law enforcement? The local D.A. and
Well, I have had good results with this:
Write a very calm and clear letter explaining the problem and
asking for help. Address it to the local "action line" at the
local newspaper. Mail it to the <Commerce casino> with a cover
letter explaining that you hope you can get the problem solved
without sending the enclosed letter to the newspaper.
--
den...@netcom.com (Dennis Yelle)
"You must do the thing you think you cannot do." -- Eleanor Roosevelt
Abdul Jalib M'hall
In article <mhallDr...@netcom.com>,
Abdul Jalib M'hall <mh...@netcom.com> wrote:
>Today, the manager of Commerce cardroom/casino in Commerce (LA),
>denied me a safe deposit box because I refused to give my social
>security number. As I understand it, Commerce casino has committed
>a federal crime by doing so.
Someone pointed out in email that I'm wrong. Where my logic got
confused was that I knew it is illegal for states to demand a
social security number, so I assumed that it would surely be illegal
for a mere casino. But that was a bad assumption.
From the alt.privacy faq available via ftp from rtfm.mit.edu:
| Few [government] agencies are allowed to request the number, and all
| [government] agences are required to give a disclosure complete enough
| that you can find the law that empowers them. There are no comparable
| Federal laws either restricting the uses non-government organizations
| can make of the SSN, or compelling them to tell you anything about their
| plans.
| ...
| If someone absolutely insists on getting your Social Security Number, you
| may want to give a fake number... There *are* legal penalties for providing
| a false number when you expect to gain some benefit from it. For example,
| a federal court of appeals ruled that using a false SSN to get a Driver's
| License violates federal law.
| ...
| However, there is a body of law, intended to prohibit the misuse of credit
| cards, that is written vaguely enough that it could be interpreted to cover
| personal collections of SSNs. The laws are at 18 USC 1029, and cover what
| is called "access device fraud." An access device is "any card, plate,
| code, account number or other means of access that can be used, alone or in
| conjunction with another access device, to obtain money, goods, services, or
| any other thing of value, or that can be used to initiate a transfer of
| value." The law forbids the possession, "knowingly and with intent to
| defraud" of fifteen or more devices which are counterfeit or unauthorized
| access devices." If interstate commerce is involved, penalties are up to
| $10,000 and 10 years in prison.
Perhaps the Commerce could be attacked on the basis of that law, but I'm
not sure how "intent to defraud" could be proved. Commerce *should* be
legally liable for any harm done if any of those numbers is copied and
used by a criminal, and that could amount to millions of dollars, but
perhaps I'm not sure they have any legal obligations whatsoever.
--
Abdul | I'm an American, and I don't even have the right to not give my social
Jalib | security number to whomever asks. With this number, you have access to
M'hall | my private information and you can transfer money in my bank accounts!
Dave Johnston
Abdul Jalib M'hall wrote:
> >Today, the manager of Commerce cardroom/casino in Commerce (LA),
> >denied me a safe deposit box because I refused to give my social
> >security number. As I understand it, Commerce casino has committed
> >a federal crime by doing so.
>
> Someone pointed out in email that I'm wrong. Where my logic got
> confused was that I knew it is illegal for states to demand a
> social security number, so I assumed that it would surely be illegal
> for a mere casino. But that was a bad assumption.
> <<SNIP>>
> --
> Abdul | I'm an American, and I don't even have the right to not give my social
> Jalib | security number to whomever asks. With this number, you have access to
> M'hall | my private information and you can transfer money in my bank accounts!
I agree that it's annoying to be asked for an SSN everywhere you go, but I don't agree
with your sig. You have a right not to give our your SSN. If Commerce wants the SSN
before they'll do business with you, they should be able to ask for it. If you don't
want to give up the SSN, don't do business with Commerce. If they lose enough
customers, they might reevaluate their policy. If they don't, it's their business and
they're free to set their own terms. I think this is similar to the restaurant smoking
issue. If I own a restaurant, I should be free to decide whether or not I want it to be
smoking, non-smoking, or some of each. If I'm a patron, I can decide which restaurants
I will visit.
Robert Copps
In article <mhallDr...@netcom.com>, mh...@netcom.com (Abdul Jalib
M'hall) writes:
>
> Msg-ID: <mhallDr...@netcom.com>
> Posted: Fri, 17 May 1996 18:27:00 GMT
>
> Org. : NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
>
> Today, the manager of Commerce cardroom/casino in Commerce (LA),
> denied me a safe deposit box because I refused to give my social
> security number. As I understand it, Commerce casino has committed
> for me... don't look at me like I'm doing something wrong, Commerce
> casino is the criminal here!
>
> I believe it is not lawful to withhold services on demand of social
> security number unless you are *required* by federal law to obtain the
> number for the feds, such as with the federal 10K forms. I informed
> the manager that Commerce was breaking Federal law and explained why,
> to no effect. He seemed confused by the fact that in some cases,
> such as the 10K thing, they are required to get the social security
> number, thinking that gives them license to demand the social security
> number whenever they please for no reason. He stated that in
> order to please the Federal government, in case of a raid, he felt
> he should gather as many social security numbers as possible even when
> there is no requirement by Federal government to do so.
>
> thinking of writing a letter to law enforcement, cc'ed to the
> Commerce casino. But which law enforcement? The local D.A. and
> Commerce seeing a letter that was sent to the F.B.I. would get
> the quickest results, even if the F.B.I. immediately sends the
> letter to the shredder as outside their jurisdiction. :)
>
> What are the legal ramifications of breaking this federal law?
> It's a "federal crime" which is like a "felony", right? Fines?
> Jail time in nasty Federal prisons? (If the punishments are
> nasty, like they would get sent to the rack or something, then I
> would be less likely to try to bring the long arm of the Feds
> down on Commerce.)
>
> --
> Abdul | I'm a Libertarian, and I'm going to cling to the one right left
> to
> Jalib | me in this country, the right to not give my social security
> number
> M'hall | unless required to do so by the Federal (not state) government.
Go get 'em, Abdul! Send a letter to everyone. Let the casino be inundated
with requests for information from various authorities.
You might get more info on the history of this problem from a libertarian
newsgroup.
--
--Bob.
Amalie Tuffin
Abdul - what you should do is to get the
U.S. Code cite for the statute which you believe is being violated.
You should then send a letter (certified is a good idea - especially
if the object is to "scare" the Commerce Casino) to the U.S.
Attorney for the county in which the Commerce does business.
Good luck.
Amalie Tuffin (yes, I am a lawyer)
Peter Secor
So what's the problem? Make up some 9 digit number you can remember
and *voila*, you have your box. After all, they have *no way* to
check it anyway.
foldem
HitTheFlop
My "number" is the last 9 digits of my phone #. If you reel it of
without a pause you'll never be questioned and you can recall
it if needed.
Privacy is vanishing. Fight the bastards always.
Best Luck
Ed
Abdul Jalib M'hall
In article <4o4ide$6...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
From the alt.privacy faq:
| There *are* legal penalties for providing
| a false number when you expect to gain some benefit from it. For example,
| a federal court of appeals ruled that using a false SSN to get a Driver's
| License violates federal law.
And of course you almost always expect to gain some benefit from keeping
your real SSN to yourself.
The problem, as I've come to realize, is not that private organizations
can deny service if you don't fork over your SSN, but rather than
the government virtually requires you to get this dangerous national
ID number in the first place and then once you have it, you cannot
legally lie about it to those who have no right to know your SSN.
--
Abdul | The difference between a komodo dragon and blackjack in Monaco is
Jalib | that, well, never mind, there really is no difference, both the
M'hall | komodo dragon and Monaco are out to get you.
Tom Moser
You might want to check out the SSN FAQ at
http://snyside.sunnyside.com/cpsr/privacy/ssn/oldSSN/ssn.faq.html
Basically it recommends giving a false number - there are no penalties for
this unless you intend fraud or personal gain.
-Tom
Mike McNally
In article <4o4ide$6...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
Peter Secor <se...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>So what's the problem? Make up some 9 digit number you can remember
>and *voila*, you have your box. After all, they have *no way* to
>check it anyway.
This is probably *not* a good idea. While there's no penalty for not
providing an SSN (other than not getting to use the box) there may very
well be stiff penalties for deliberately providing a false one.