15/30 with KK heads-up
T. Chan
got around to posting it.
Setting is 15/30 hold'em at Bay 101. It was a great game with an
average of 4-5 people constantly limping in for one bet. Hell, even
the prop was loose-passive. But something good must have been on TV,
since it got folded around to the button -- a loosish, uninteresting,
straightforward player -- who raised. SB ditches and I wake up to KK
in the big blind. I call.
Flop: T-T-5. I check and raise as planned. He calls.
Turn: 5. I check, he checks.
River: 9. I ponder my options and bet. He ponders his options, and
raises. I call.
Results and my thoughts in 24 hours.
--
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http://www.sfu.ca/~tchand/
56
this player is looseish, straightforward, and uninteresting, the raise was
probably from a higher PP, or maybe AK, IMHO
--
Online gamblers can be little more than crack addicts; they just have to get
their "fix" and never care how they get it, or where their money goes.
"T. Chan" <terren...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:2vi0hu4bip57jnioi...@4ax.com...
Jonathan Kaplan.com>
i would have bet the turn. alot of hands (that you have beat) have to continue
playing there, especially, Ax. if he raises the turn, you can think about
it...(but, unless he is a quite predictable player, you are probably stuck in
all the way).
then i check the river, unless another K falls. if he bets, call the river,
cause now, unless the player is real weak, there are alot of hands he'll bet
that you will beat.
Jonathan
no matter where you go, there you are....
jimpepper
Well I do not play these limits but I will take a guess.
After all it's still a free country.
Button tried a steal here and then caught a peice of the flop.
The check raise slowed him down thinking you had a 10,
so maybe he had a 5 and an overcard.
A-5 is my guess.
jim
Lee Munzer
"Jonathan Kaplan ...
> >Flop: T-T-5. I check and raise as planned. He calls.
> >Turn: 5. I check, he checks.
> >River: 9. I ponder my options and bet. He ponders his options, and
> >raises. I call.
> i would have bet the turn. alot of hands (that you have beat) have to
continue
> playing there, especially, Ax. if he raises the turn, you can think about
> it...(but, unless he is a quite predictable player, you are probably stuck
in
> all the way).
> then i check the river, unless another K falls. if he bets, call the
river,
> cause now, unless the player is real weak, there are alot of hands he'll
bet
> that you will beat.
Since the game is 15/30 and the player is ABC (it's Bay 101, so we know he's
loose:), we can assume he knows enough to raise with a wide variety of hands
when all fold to him on the button pre-flop. I believe he has 9-9, but he
could have any of the hands "56" speculates or a hand like Qd-10d ... the
Varkonyi. I say this because your play doesn't define his hand as much as
if you had bet the turn.
Your play does have him confused. He expected you to bet the turn. When
you didn't he decided to check, but there is more than one reason why he
could have elected to check, including reflex.
When "in the money at the WPT" JK suggests betting the turn and mucking if
he is "a quite predictable" player, I refer JK to your description of
"straightforward", thus you can follow that plan (muck if raised because you
would have shown sufficient strength to be sure you didn't have his hand
beaten in that scenario).
Your bet on the river is fine because he should call with many losing hands.
Your call on the river is fine ... the pot is sizeable, he may have J-J or
Q-Q, and, worst case (Q-10 or my 9-9 speculation), you gain information on
how he plays.
Lee
Jonathan Kaplan.com>
hey, could we shorten that moniker a little?
how about just "in the money"...grin
Lee Munzer
"Jonathan Kaplan .com>" <NutNoPair@aol<spam> wrote in message
news:9c1Q8.23646$15....@www.newsranger.com...
Well, if you win the $10,000 WSoP event next year, we could shorten it it WC
(like Berry:<).
Lee
Mackie
Some good players will check raise you on the flop whenever you raise
their big blind, no matter what flops, hoping you will give up right
then and there. Had you done this prior to this hand to this to this
guy or anyone else at the table?
He most likely has a ten, in which case he's worried you will muck on
the turn if he bets. The other posibility is 99, and he put you on a
5. Anything else doesn't mesh with your description of
"straightforward", such a player holding an overpair would not raise
your river bet.
David Rodgers
With two pair on the board, he had an ace and thought it was good.
A. Prock
[T. hold KK heads-up in the BB, flat calls button steal]
Why not raise from the BB? Are you hoping to
get value in on a later street?
You are heads up with a monster hand. You know
that he's going to pay off a raise here, so it's
worth like an extra .9 small bets to raise here.
There are some situations where it might be proper
to flat call, but consider the two options:
1) Flat call preflop k/r the flop. You put 4 bets
into the pot and your opponent puts in 4 if
he bets the flop AND calls the k/r. What do you
do if he 3 bets you?
One possible scenario is you give a free card to
see the turn and he's seen four cards with a worse
hand for two small bets.
Another possibility is that you've given him a
free draw to the flop and he now outflops you.
DOH!
2) Raise preflop and come out firing. Now you're
guaranteed to have gotten in 3 sb with the
superior hand (versus his distribution of steal
hands). If he caps, you now have more information
which you can use on laters streets.
If you are raise on the flop you can now 3-bet
with a much higher degree of confidence than you
can in the previous case where the stealer 3-bets
your flop k/r.
By showing more aggression you better define your
opponents hand which makes playing the later
streets easier. You also get more money in the
pot when you have a higer degree of confidence that
you have the best of it. Very important.
>Flop: T-T-5. I check and raise as planned. He calls.
Fine play. But again, let me ask: how do you feel if
he 3-bets you? Do you 4-bet, and bet/call the turn?
Or do *you* call and check/raise the turn? Or call
and check/call the turn?
>Turn: 5. I check, he checks.
I don't understand this one at all. You are now going
to be called by any ace, and any pocket pair greter than 55.
You also might get called by any two overcards. There
are certainly more of those hand than hands with a T or
a 5. Bet and back off if you are raised.
I hope you weren't going for the check raise.
>River: 9. I ponder my options and bet. He ponders his options, and
>raises. I call.
Reasonable play. Especially since he checked
through on the turn. I would generally bet any
river in this situation except the ace. Even if
I bet/called the turn. By bet calling twice you
are trying to maximize your profit and minimize
your loss.
When it was checked through, I think that you have
to bet no matter what.
This is one of those cases where you are certainly
going to call any river bet, so you may as well
come out firing and hope you get called by a worse
hand that wouldn't have bet the river, or by a
better hand that would bet the river but not raise.
He raised, oh well. Call and play the next hand.
- Andrew
tenseven
BillM
> Setting is 15/30 hold'em at Bay 101. It was a great game with an
> average of 4-5 people constantly limping in for one bet. Hell, even
> the prop was loose-passive. But something good must have been on TV,
> since it got folded around to the button -- a loosish, uninteresting,
> straightforward player -- who raised. SB ditches and I wake up to KK
> in the big blind. I call.
Why get cute w/a donkey? Most of the time I'll re-raise here w/KK,
def w/QQ. Lotsa meta game considerations, as skp might say.
> Flop: T-T-5. I check and raise as planned. He calls.
Simple & correct after calling preflop.
> Turn: 5. I check, he checks.
Ugh. Why get extra cute w/a donkey? He calls you all the way down
w/an ace or smaller pocket pair.
> River: 9. I ponder my options and bet. He ponders his options, and
> raises. I call.
Hmm. I think you might see the white blackbird here[i.e. pocket 9's]
but you have to at least call. If he has a T, 'Ni Han, Sir'. And
even a donkey can try to get cute himself w/acehigh or pocket 8's, so
I'd at least consider a reraise. Might even win ya the pot.... Call
prolly is best though.
Cambodian Slick
> Varkonyi. I say this because your play doesn't define his hand as much as
> if you had bet the turn.
>
Q-10 is not called "the Varkonyi". It is called the Pope. Even
before Varkonyi immortalized the hand by winning three major pots with
it at the WSOP, this hand was called the Pope. I'm not sure why, but
I do remember at this years WSOP every time Varkonyi won with it
people in the crowd yelling "The Pope!"
Abdul Jalib
>
> Setting is 15/30 hold'em at Bay 101. It was a great game with an
> average of 4-5 people constantly limping in for one bet. Hell, even
> the prop was loose-passive. But something good must have been on TV,
> since it got folded around to the button -- a loosish, uninteresting,
> straightforward player -- who raised. SB ditches and I wake up to KK
> in the big blind. I call.
>
> Flop: T-T-5. I check and raise as planned. He calls.
> Turn: 5. I check, he checks.
> River: 9. I ponder my options and bet. He ponders his options, and
> raises. I call.
Preflop, I agree with Andrew Prock. 3-bet-n-bet has a lot of
advantages over call-n-check-raise. A call is okay for an occasional
curve ball, though.
On the flop, check-raise is fine if you made the mistake/sacrifice of
calling preflop.
On the turn, I would only check if I thought an ace would fold if I
bet. Maybe some props would fold an ace there.
On the river, sure, bet and I hope you never had any thought of
folding to a raise. In general, it's super important to thin value
bet on double paired boards, since an ace will normally call.
Nobody mentioned that you could be up against 22-44, which he conceded
on the turn but then he thought your bet on the river was suspicious
and took the only shot he had left. Maybe a straightforward prop
would just fold, but backed into a corner even a prop can become
dangerous. I would rank his most likely hands like so:
A9, QJ, 22, 33, 44, J9, JT, QT, AT, A5, KT, T8s, 98s, QQ, AA, JJ, T9,
99, K5s, K9s, Q9s, KQ, KJ, 88, 77, 66, 55, KK, TT
I would be shocked if his hand turns out to be the naked ace that some
suggested. Straightforward props don't bluff with calling hands.
--
Abdul
Ken Kubey
Hero has KK inthe blinds, smooth calls a probable steal raise.
>Flop: T-T-5. I check and raise as planned. He calls.
>Turn: 5. I check, he checks.
>River: 9. I ponder my options and bet. He ponders his options, and
>raises. I call.
How exciting can this be?
He has a 5 and was being careful.
He has a 10 and sucked you in.
He has 99 and got lucky.
He has AA and made a dangerous river raise and got paid off.
He has an ace.
He has pure crap.
He has QQ or JJ.
He has TT.
No. I think I've got it! PRESTO!
Ken Kubey kube...@engr.sgi.com QB (650) 933-3536
David Rodgers
T. Chan
wrote:
>Results and my thoughts in 24 hours.
My thoughts follow. Thanks for all the great responses so far. Now
that you've had a chance to critique my hand, please critique my
thinking.
Everyone wants to know why I didn't 3-bet preflop. Here's what I
thought of that. Against a straightforward vanilla player like this,
3-betting preflop will scare him too much, I think. If I 3-bet
preflop and he makes top pair/decent kicker (other than aces of
course), he likely won't raise me on the flop and just call me down to
the end. Boring! If I just call preflop and check-raise him after he
makes top pair, he might 3-bet me with his 5-outer, now I back off and
get to check-raise him on the turn, and mmm...I'm getting hungry just
thinking about it. Or even if he doesn't make a pair, he will
probably fold his lousy overcards on the flop after I 3-bet preflop
(FTOP correct thing to do), but if I flat-call preflop, I check, he
bets, I raise and he calls, he's played FTOP horrible.
Now, against a more tricky devil, I'll 3-bet preflop. Against someone
who doesn't scare easily, I don't need to worry about scaring, right?
I'd probably be far more likely to 3-bet if I weren't on vacation
(i.e. I was likely to run into these people again). I do this so that
I get some respect when I'm popping people back out of the blinds with
AJ and 77 and other stuff I want them to fold on the flop with (often
incorrectly).
On the turn I'm probably less enamoured with my play. A lot of people
mentioned that I can and should value-bet against an ace here. At the
time I felt a check was quite reasonable because either he is drawing
to a 2- or 3-outer at best or I'm in trouble with a 2-outer of my own.
If he has a ten and I bet, obviously I'm going to be paying 3 big bets
to get to the showdown. If I check, I lose only 2 bets (regardless of
what he does). If he doesn't have a ten, I'm not giving up too much
by giving a free card because he probably won't suck out on me. But I
do miss a value bet as a strong favourite against QQ/JJ/99-66/AX.
On the river, most feel my play is right. Kudos to those who put him
on 99; you guys nailed it. So I lost a hand, big deal. But how'd I
*do*?
Thoughts?
The Beet Man
<7684hu89ufvk9909k...@4ax.com>, T. Chan
<terren...@telus.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 19 Jun 2002 09:20:19 GMT, T. Chan <terren...@telus.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Results and my thoughts in 24 hours.
>
>My thoughts follow. Thanks for all the great responses so far. Now
>that you've had a chance to critique my hand, please critique my
>thinking.
>
>Everyone wants to know why I didn't 3-bet preflop. Here's what I
>thought of that. Against a straightforward vanilla player like this,
>3-betting preflop will scare him too much, I think. If I 3-bet
>preflop and he makes top pair/decent kicker (other than aces of
>course), he likely won't raise me on the flop and just call me down to
>the end. Boring! If I just call preflop and check-raise him after he
>makes top pair, he might 3-bet me with his 5-outer, now I back off and
>get to check-raise him on the turn, and mmm...I'm getting hungry just
>thinking about it.
I don't know about that. I suspect that these straightforward vanilla
types would be just as scared as a check-raise as they would be scared
by a 3-bet preflop.
>Or even if he doesn't make a pair, he will
>probably fold his lousy overcards on the flop after I 3-bet preflop
>(FTOP correct thing to do), but if I flat-call preflop, I check, he
>bets, I raise and he calls, he's played FTOP horrible.
My inclination would be to 3-bet with a bunch of hands hoping to often
push him off lousy overcards, since he's probably more likely to have
lousy overcards than a real hand, and he'll usually be making a
mistake by folding lousy overcards on the flop because even if his
hand isn't good, he'll have pair outs. (Also if I'm defending my
blind anyway, it's only costing an additional small bet to 3-bet,
assuming he doesn't cap, which I suspect a straightforward vanilla
player would do rarely.) I don't think your smooth-call is
necessarily wrong, though.
>On the turn I'm probably less enamoured with my play. A lot of people
>mentioned that I can and should value-bet against an ace here. At the
>time I felt a check was quite reasonable because either he is drawing
>to a 2- or 3-outer at best or I'm in trouble with a 2-outer of my own.
>If he has a ten and I bet, obviously I'm going to be paying 3 big bets
>to get to the showdown. If I check, I lose only 2 bets (regardless of
>what he does).
If you check-call the turn you're not going to bet the river? Or you
think playing it check-(bet)-call/bet would scare him into just
calling on the river with a T, fearing you slowplayed presto?
>If he doesn't have a ten, I'm not giving up too much
>by giving a free card because he probably won't suck out on me. But I
>do miss a value bet as a strong favourite against QQ/JJ/99-66/AX.
There are a lot more ways he can hold one of those strong favorite
hands than he can hold a T, so I think you missed a bet on the turn.
I don't know what kinds of hands a straightforward vanilla player
would play, but let's say 66 or higher and any 2 paint cards to start
with. You're in deep doo-doo against AA, TT, AT, KT, QT, and JT.
That's only 33 hands. He's in deep doo-doo with QQ, JJ, 99, 88, 77,
66, AK, AQ, and AJ, which is 76 hands. Then consider that he probably
wouldn't bet a T on the flop 100% of the time (even straightforward
vanilla players slowplay monsters heads up), which lowers the chances
of him having a deep doo-doo hand, and that he's almost certainly
going to play more aces than ATs or better (or, if he's so tight he
wouldn't, you can probably remove some of the weaker offsuit T hands),
and your chances of being both ahead and getting a call are quite
good.
The only way I can see letting him take a free card would be if he had
something like KJ/KQ/QJ that would probably muck if you bet, but for
that to be profitable you need him to both 1) have that hand, which is
only 32 combinations, and 2) pair on the river, which is only a 4
"outer" in the case of KJ/KQ and a 6 "outer" in the case of QJ.
That's an incredibly specific parlay you need to happen.
Or, I guess, if he wouldn't call on the turn with just an ace,
figuring that it's costing him 2 bets, but he'd call on the river
knowing it's only costing him 1 bet, letting him take the free card is
correct, but that's another pretty specific parlay.
--
This post brought to you courtesy of the Beet Man!
T. Chan
<i-eat-beets-an...@juno.com> wrote:
>>Everyone wants to know why I didn't 3-bet preflop. Here's what I
>>thought of that. Against a straightforward vanilla player like this,
>>3-betting preflop will scare him too much, I think. If I 3-bet
>>preflop and he makes top pair/decent kicker (other than aces of
>>course), he likely won't raise me on the flop and just call me down to
>>the end. Boring! If I just call preflop and check-raise him after he
>>makes top pair, he might 3-bet me with his 5-outer, now I back off and
>>get to check-raise him on the turn, and mmm...I'm getting hungry just
>>thinking about it.
>
>I don't know about that. I suspect that these straightforward vanilla
>types would be just as scared as a check-raise as they would be scared
>by a 3-bet preflop.
Perhaps. But even still I gain as much back that I gave up preflop.
Basically the primary downside by going for the check-raise on the
flop is giving up bets when I 3-bet the flop, bet and get raised and
get to 3-bet again. And I think against this player I'd rarely get
that opportunity (at least while ahead).
>>Or even if he doesn't make a pair, he will
>>probably fold his lousy overcards on the flop after I 3-bet preflop
>>(FTOP correct thing to do), but if I flat-call preflop, I check, he
>>bets, I raise and he calls, he's played FTOP horrible.
>
>My inclination would be to 3-bet with a bunch of hands hoping to often
>push him off lousy overcards, since he's probably more likely to have
>lousy overcards than a real hand, and he'll usually be making a
>mistake by folding lousy overcards on the flop because even if his
>hand isn't good, he'll have pair outs. (Also if I'm defending my
>blind anyway, it's only costing an additional small bet to 3-bet,
>assuming he doesn't cap, which I suspect a straightforward vanilla
>player would do rarely.) I don't think your smooth-call is
>necessarily wrong, though.
I agree, I would 3-bet with a weaker hand. And if I'm doing that I
have to balance by 3-betting monsters. But, since I'm an
out-of-towner, I can probably slowplay my monster here.
>>On the turn I'm probably less enamoured with my play. A lot of people
>>mentioned that I can and should value-bet against an ace here. At the
>>time I felt a check was quite reasonable because either he is drawing
>>to a 2- or 3-outer at best or I'm in trouble with a 2-outer of my own.
>>If he has a ten and I bet, obviously I'm going to be paying 3 big bets
>>to get to the showdown. If I check, I lose only 2 bets (regardless of
>>what he does).
>
>If you check-call the turn you're not going to bet the river? Or you
>think playing it check-(bet)-call/bet would scare him into just
>calling on the river with a T, fearing you slowplayed presto?
If he bets on the turn, it would be difficult for me to bet into him
on the river, yeah.
>
>>If he doesn't have a ten, I'm not giving up too much
>>by giving a free card because he probably won't suck out on me. But I
>>do miss a value bet as a strong favourite against QQ/JJ/99-66/AX.
>
>There are a lot more ways he can hold one of those strong favorite
>hands than he can hold a T, so I think you missed a bet on the turn.
>I don't know what kinds of hands a straightforward vanilla player
>would play, but let's say 66 or higher and any 2 paint cards to start
>with. You're in deep doo-doo against AA, TT, AT, KT, QT, and JT.
>That's only 33 hands. [...]
Very good point. I'm probably winning, although if he bets into me on
the turn after I check-raise the flop it increases the chance he
actually has a ten.