Phil Hellmuth "kicks" down door at Bicycle Casino
AuthorAndy
Phil Hellmuth is staying at my house and so is accessing RGP from my account.
The words below are his:
Hi All, I'm in the poker news again...Tonight at the Bicycle Club casino in LA,
with 8 tables left in the $500 buy-in Omaha eight or better event, I lost an
average size pot, and left steaming for the break. I tried to kick open the
glass door (like I've done a lot at the Horseshoe), but in my haste I kicked
the wrong side of the door, and the bottom hinges of the door broke, leaving
the door still attached by the top hinges only.
I did not karate kick the door. I did not try to kick the door off of it's
hinges. I did try to kick the door open out of frustration, and I feel bad
that I can't control my emotions better. I need to grow up and handle losing
better.
I have not had a penalty since the 1997 World Series of Poker (perhaps I've
deserved a few since then!). The tournament director, in association with the
management at the Bike, decided to disqualify me from the tournament and ask me
to leave the premises for the day. I had $2500 in chips, and, I'm in the
points race. I argued my case with Denny, saying that I didn't intend to kick
any door down, and that I've never been cited for something like this before,
and I haven't had a single penalty since 1997. However, Denny and co. stuck to
their guns.
When I drove back to Andy's place, I called to apoligize to Denny and the Bike
one more time.
I feel like an idiot at this point, knowing how things look, but believe me, I
didn't try to kick the door down! Hopefully, someday soon I will learn to
control my emotions better. Hopefully, someday soon the poker world will
realize that I'm a good family man that "Just needs a little fixin" (as
Amarillo Slim would say).
-Cheers, from an upset Phil Hellmuth Jr.
wg bradley
"AuthorAndy" <autho...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020812233426...@mb-ch.aol.com...
Patrick B. O'Malley
another player for saying the word "fuck" on the phone that workers brought
him. Gave him a penalty and when he got mad, they banned him from the Bike
forever. Seems they are a bit like Paradise these days...make one wrong
move, and you are gone forever no questions asked. The "fuck" penalty was
basically a $10,000 penalty as well. Seems a bit steep for saying something
in a phone. Gotta live by the spirit and not the letter at times.
--
Patrick B. O'Malley
KFIXXXX
You have won your share of money in th epoker world, I am the one who should
break all doors, but after I loose time after time I stand up and walk away
like a man. I remember, a few years ago, I tried to talk to you after you were
busted from a tournament, you walked away without even looking at me. That
told me how much class you have. I have never felt talking to you after that
night. People like to deserve what they get.
Guss GH.
Bjgkaraoke
would love to play at the Bicycle, but they don't have a game for me to play
in. They have a 9-18 game (sporadic and propped up) and a
20-40 (same thing). When I've tried to play there, I see the same people (most
of them on the payroll). I tried to support the 12-24 game, but it didn't get
spread regularly. Maybe they should do more to get and keep customers.
Barbara Gallamore
Peg Smith
<pbo...@verizon.net> writes:
>...The "fuck" penalty was
>basically a $10,000 penalty as well...
It's often much higher if you marry in a community property state.
Peg
Steve Badger
> Is their business so good they can afford to ban people so arbitrarily?
Arbitraily??? What do you think they should do when a player threatens a
casino employee with bodily harm?
NChrisH
From: pegsm...@aol.comNOSPAM (Peg Smith)
Date: Mon, Aug 12, 2002 9:40 PM
Message-id: <20020813004031...@mb-da.aol.com>
Peg >>
Speaking from personal experience?
Yeah, it's cheaper to kill them than divorce them sometimes.
Chris H.
:) Smile, it's only money.
Chuck Humphrey
Phil's outburst started when he lost a hand just before the break.
His opponent had flooped nut low and wound up scooping. Phil uttered
the "F" word, crashed his chair into the wall in back of him and
stormed through the hall for the glass doors leading outside. He
kicked one of the doors and broke it off its lower hinges.
Phil was first given a 20 minute penalty for violating the "F" word
rule. Then he was told to report to the Torunament Director for
further punishment for the destruction of the door hinges.
The Tournament Director suspended Phil from play for the night, and
retired the $1,280 in chips that Phil had left at that point.
I was told that Phil did not take well to the ban and threatened to
sue the Bike. Therefore, the Bike called the Bell Gardens police to
come so the casino could file an incident report. When I looked out
in the hall I saw the cops and the yellow caution tape the casino had
placed on the door. I immediately thought of crime scene tape.
One wag suggested that any recurrence of this behavior should result
in a ban on anyone named Phil for the night. Another wag suggested it
was a hell of a way to bust out of a tournement.
Upper management will decide later how severe the punishment should
be. I understand that Phil did call the Bike after he left the
premises to say he was sorry and that he was not going to sue.
Chuck Humphrey
T. Chan
<ceh...@REMOVEarthlink.net> wrote:
>herefore, the Bike called the Bell Gardens police to
>come so the casino could file an incident report. When I looked out
>in the hall I saw the cops and the yellow caution tape the casino had
>placed on the door.
Really? Well, I guess it's not like L.A. cops have anything better to
do.
--
Self-indulgent homepage warning:
http://www.sfu.ca/~tchand/
Nomen Nescio
Newgca
>come so the casino could file an incident report.
Why don't you see if you can call the police and file an incident report
against the Bicycle Club, if the situation calls for it. Problem here is, the
police will tell you to go through casino security. Nice doubles standard? I
know, as I have tried. It can't be done.
Russ Georgiev
Russ
Fourflushr
bla bla bla
>I'm a good family man...
Do you have any idea how prposterous this sounds to a responsible adult? How
could you possibly be a good parent when you act like a spoiled brat? Didn't
your Mommy and Daddy teach you how to behave in public? Anyone who acts like
this is a world class jerk who should be barred from the casino and charged
with vandelism. Grow up or get lost.
Brett
lvdlrs
Phil Hellmuth Jr wrote:
>I feel bad that I can't control my emotions better. I need to grow up and handle losing better.
>
Yes, but you've known this for quite some time Phil and yet no progress
has been
made. Playing poker can bring out the worst in some people and you're a
prime
example of that. What you need to do is quit poker. Find something
else to occupy
your time. Go back to school. Something. Poker will always be there.
But maybe,
just maybe you'll find life outside of poker to be quite enjoyable
especially since you'll
not be giving Mr Hyde so many chances to appear. I bet your father
might have
some good suggestions.
Gary (...) Philips
Bartholomew Simpson
that this will discourage corporate sponsorship.
Why is divorce so expensive? Because it's worth it.
Now, onto the Phil matter:
I was on the poker circuit for a while, about 6 years ago. One of the
BIGGEST disappointments I had when I first started playing was the
temperament of the players about whom I had been reading for years. I
should have know better, since I was well aware of the gambling scene in
general and the types that it attracts (more than your average share of
egomaniacs with short tempers), but the picture which had been painted of
these players in magazines was of professionals, not of the whiny, crybaby,
temper-tantrum throwing a_holes with which I found myself playing. After
playing for a short time, there was no question in my mind that corporate
sponsorship was a long way away. And, due to acts like this, probably still
IS a long way away. It was a rare DAY which went by that didn't see some
kind of behavior which would make a sponsor CRINGE. Cursing, throwing cards
at the dealers or players, spitting at the dealer or other players, out and
out fist-fights. Usually all accompanied by top of the lung screaming. If
not at the tournament themselves, then at the side games which were being
held in the tournament area. When I inquired why incidents like this were
not reported, the standard answer I received at the time was that, while the
people involved in publishing were vehemently opposed to such behavior, and
even talked with / berated the offenders, they didn't feel it was in the
best interest of poker to publish the fact that a lot of the top players
(not all, but enough), are spoiled, ego-maniacal, a_holes. Also, poker
players were not willing to hold the a_holes responsible. Everyone has some
friends, and even people who didn't like it were content with letting it
pass, as opposed to calling the offenders to task. If something happened
one day, the WORST that could be expected was for them to receive a
temporary ban (i.e., go home and come back tomorrow), and often times,
nothing was done whatsoever other than telling the player that such behavior
wouldn't be tolerated (even though it was, even with repeated incidents).
Often the recounting of such incidents go out of their way to favor the
player in question (such as the above recounting where it looks like a
person was banned for cursing and we only find out from a subsequent poster
that a casino employee's life was threatened.)
Now, I start to look into the poker scene 6 years later, and, while I
haven't been to a B&M tournament (yet), it really doesn't seem like much has
changed, based on things I have heard from people with whom I have gotten
back in contact. Oh, I think that people have tried to do wonderful things.
And it does seem like SLIGHTLY more is being done to discourage bad
behavior. But the one thing which remains is that a_holes, even admitted
ones who later apologize, are still in full force. They are not willing to
take responsibility for their actions, and people (the poker community at
large) are not willing to hold them responsible.
IMO, until MORE is done to make players aware that bad behavior will not
be tolerated, and enforce that it will not be tolerated to such an extent
that the people involved are motivated to change their behavior (which they
have apparently not been motivated to do so far), corporate sponsorship will
remain an elusive dream.
I, for one (nobody that I am), applaud the decision of the Bike and wish
that they would extend the disqualification to the remainder of the
tournaments, or at the very least make it a several day expulsion /
suspension.
And, let me add, I have nothing, personal or otherwise, against Phil. I
just think that acts like this are bad for poker and should be punished
severely. How about the next time he wins something, everyone gets up and
boos - okay, maybe fighting immaturity with childish behavior isn't the best
suggestion :-) But players in general letting Phil know that he
disappointed them and caused a black eye for poker might not be a bad thing.
See you at the tables,
Bart
"NChrisH" <nch...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020813011148...@mb-fo.aol.com...
Scott
what you need is a "BASE"
to give your life and poker perspective, and take the edge off,
an example of a base might be to take 2.5 mil of the 5 mil you have won,
and buy and own /manage some kind of busineee/enterprize there is nothing
more rewarding (except maybe your family) here are some eg's, working ranch,
restuarant, nite club, bar, store of some kind, internet bus, ect, im sure
you know what you would like to do,
you would still have a 2.5 mil b-roll for poker, and most of your aggression
is going to be needed/absorbed in your new enterprize, poker would seem more
fun, more of a recreation, less serious, more in PROPER PERSPECTIVE.
you have what 99% of poker players want, that is enough money to start your
real business, real life,
--
Dsklansky
simply does not realize the large luck factor in poker. (One reason is because
he started his career with a "rush". The other is that he apparantly hasn't
bothered to study basic statistics.) Thus when he loses, he attributes it
either to bad playing on his part or to unfair, in some sense, bad beats. If
either was true it would be a reason to be angry. But neither is. Perhaps Tom
Weideman will explain further, to Phil and Mark Napolitano as well.
lance
appear to make much of a difference.
PA
"Scott" <r...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:XV569.24832$eb.19...@news2.west.cox.net...
lance
everything he needs to know about the game he is imune to the luck factor.
Phil has won more than his fair share for a career, and will continue to win
more. Not everyone can calculate the odds ect to win hands. And when a poor
hand beats his or for that matter when a good hand beats his he goes
balistic, not always externally but sometimes internally. He needs to roll
with the beats and relish the wins. He is a good player but a poor
charactor. Good Luck Phil! Contact Tony Stewart from Nascar. He is one of
the best, but his uncontrolable anger nearly cost him his career. He relized
he has to get his emotions under control...take a page from Tony , do the
same. You will be a much better person for it.
PA
"Dsklansky" <dskl...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020813073429...@mb-de.aol.com...
Full Up
that I can't control my emotions better. I need to grow up and handle
losing
better."
Seems like I've been reading this ever since Phil started writing about
poker. Why dont you do something about it then? Quit embarrasing yourself
and polluting the game with this kind of bullshit crybaby nonsense. If you
cant set a good example for the game then you dont deserve to be held out as
some kind of great promoter of poker.
Grow up.
BretONNN
Why don't you just kill yourself and get it over.
Sklanksky has such a perfect read on you, it's scary.
Maverick
Patrick B. O'Malley
just told me I was going to be blinded off for saying fuck into a telephone
that the tournament director had just brought me during a high adrenaline
tournament. Then to slap me with a penalty that is in essence a $10,000
penalty to boot. You don't even get that hi of fines for committing a
felony. Just an opinion but use a bit of the spirit of the law and not the
letter in such a harsh manner.
--
Patrick B. O'Malley
"Steve Badger" <PlayWinningPoker[REMOVE-THIS]@earthlink.net> wrote in
message news:ln069.1277$zJ.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Bjgkaraoke
f-word on the phone. Barbara Gallamore
mredge
Take a look at NASCAR driver Tony Stewart. Two weeks ago he punched a
photographer following a race. He was fined $10,000 and put on probation for
the rest of the year by NASCAR. In addition, his team owner, Joe Gibbs,
former head coach of the Washington Redskins, fined him another $50,000 on
behalf of his sponsor, Home Depot. He's agreed to do the anger management
classes. Sure hope it helps because Tony is a great driver.
Funny how much difference a week makes. Last Sunday he won the race at
Watkins Glen on course where the drivers actually gets to make right turns.
I'm sure a win for you would help like it did Tony. Though that won't last
forever. You're a smart guy. Get some help and you'll still be able to play
like a champion.
Eric Rosenberg
corporate sponsorship was a long way >away.
What about other professional sports? Are they not filled with whiney
babies? Of course they are, yet they manage to get corporate sponsorship.
Take Mike Tyson for instance... or professional baseball players.
Cheers,
Eric
--
News, Chat, & Information for the Online Poker Player
http://www.LiveActionPoker.com
tenseven
individuals.
from the gossip i hear you sre a good family man, with a real nasty
streak.
could you write an article how they might be tied together. how the
intense desire and concentration it takes to "win" (at almost anything
we do), many times leads to tantrums/outbursts from the exceptionally
talented.
mike mantel
nyc
average by any measure
autho...@aol.com (AuthorAndy) wrote in message news:<20020812233426...@mb-ch.aol.com>...
Lee Munzer
From Phil H:
> I tried to kick open the glass door (like I've done a lot at the
Horseshoe), but in my haste I kicked the wrong side of the door, and the
bottom hinges of the door broke, leaving the door still attached by the top
hinges only.
> I need to grow up and handle losing better.
I think Phil's desired result ("building frustration tolerance") is
dependent upon an action plan ... imo, lacking so far. While not a
psychologist (does psyche major for awhile count for anything:-), I would
think one who has an anger management problem (according to research, that's
about 20% of us) must become proactive. Phil should acknowledge he has a
serious problem (the 1997 comment seems to indicate he has not come to the
realization that the problem is always with him, simply waiting for an
opportunity to manifest itself outwardly). Secondly, he should learn about
his problem. Finally, he should work as hard as he can on remedying his
problem.
I excerpted some applicable info from this excellent website:
http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/anger.html
Note the second paragraph under "Using Humor". It seems to have been
written with Phil in mind.
Lee
Overview: Anger is a completely normal, usually healthy, human emotion. But
when it gets out of control and turns destructive, it can lead to
problems用roblems at work, in your personal relationships, and in the
overall quality of your life. And it can make you feel as though you're at
the mercy of an unpredictable and powerful emotion.
What is Anger?
The Nature of Anger
Anger is "an emotional state that varies in intensity from mild irritation
to intense fury and rage," according to Charles Spielberger, PhD, a
psychologist who specializes in the study of anger.
Anger can be caused by both external and internal events. You could be angry
at a specific person (Such as a coworker or supervisor) or event (a traffic
jam, a canceled flight), or your anger could be caused by worrying or
brooding about your personal problems. Memories of traumatic or enraging
events can also trigger angry feelings.
Expressing Anger
The instinctive, natural way to express anger is to respond aggressively.
Anger is a natural, adaptive response to threats; it inspires powerful,
often aggressive, feelings and behaviors, which allow us to fight and to
defend ourselves when we are attacked. A certain amount of anger, therefore,
is necessary to our survival.
On the other hand, we can't physically lash out at every person or object
that irritates or annoys us; laws, social norms, and common sense place
limits on how far our anger can take us.
People use a variety of both conscious and unconscious processes to deal
with their angry feelings. The three main approaches are expressing,
suppressing, and calming. Expressing your angry feelings in an assertive溶ot
aggressive洋anner is the healthiest way to express anger. To do this, you
have to learn how to make clear what your needs are, and how to get them
met, without hurting others. Being assertive doesn't mean being pushy or
demanding; it means being respectful of yourself and others.
Anger can be suppressed, and then converted or redirected. This happens when
you hold in your anger, stop thinking about it, and focus on something
positive. The aim is to inhibit or suppress your anger and convert it into
more constructive behavior. The danger in this type of response is that if
it isn't allowed outward expression, your anger can turn inward熔n yourself.
Anger turned inward may cause hypertension, high blood pressure, or
depression.
Unexpressed anger can create other problems. It can lead to pathological
expressions of anger, such as passive-aggressive behavior (getting back at
people indirectly, without telling them why, rather than confronting them
head-on) or a personality that seems perpetually cynical and hostile. People
who are constantly putting others down, criticizing everything, and making
cynical comments haven't learned how to constructively express their anger.
Not surprisingly, they aren't likely to have many successful relationships.
Finally, you can calm down inside. This means not just controlling your
outward behavior, but also controlling your internal responses, taking steps
to lower your heart rate, calm yourself down, and let the feelings subside.
As Dr. Spielberger notes, "when none of these three techniques work, that's
when someone熔r something擁s going to get hurt."
Anger Management
The goal of anger management is to reduce both your emotional feelings and
the physiological arousal that anger causes. You can't get rid of, or avoid,
the things or the people that enrage you, nor can you change them, but you
can learn to control your reactions.
Are You Too Angry?
There are psychological tests that measure the intensity of angry feelings,
how prone to anger you are, and how well you handle it. But chances are good
that if you do have a problem with anger, you already know it. If you find
yourself acting in ways that seem out of control and frightening, you might
need help finding better ways to deal with this emotion.
Why Are Some People More Angry Than Others?
According to Jerry Deffenbacher, PhD, a psychologist who specializes in
anger management, some people really are more "hotheaded" than others are;
they get angry more easily and more intensely than the average person does.
There are also those who don't show their anger in loud spectacular ways but
are chronically irritable and grumpy. Easily angered people don't always
curse and throw things; sometimes they withdraw socially, sulk, or get
physically ill.
People who are easily angered generally have what some psychologists call a
low tolerance for frustration, meaning simply that they feel that they
should not have to be subjected to frustration, inconvenience, or annoyance.
They can't take things in stride, and they're particularly infuriated if the
situation seems somehow unjust: for example, being corrected for a minor
mistake.
What makes these people this way? A number of things. One cause may be
genetic or physiological: There is evidence that some children are born
irritable, touchy, and easily angered, and that these signs are present from
a very early age. Another may be sociocultural. Anger is often regarded as
negative; we're taught that it's all right to express anxiety, depression,
or other emotions but not to express anger. As a result, we don't learn how
to handle it or channel it constructively.
Research has also found that family background plays a role. Typically,
people who are easily angered come from families that are disruptive,
chaotic, and not skilled at emotional communications.
Is It Good To "Let it All Hang Out?"
Psychologists now say that this is a dangerous myth. Some people use this
theory as a license to hurt others. Research has found that "letting it rip"
with anger actually escalates anger and aggression and does nothing to help
you (or the person you're angry with) resolve the situation.
It's best to find out what it is that triggers your anger, and then to
develop strategies to keep those triggers from tipping you over the edge.
Strategies To Keep Anger At Bay
Relaxation
Simple relaxation tools, such as deep breathing and relaxing imagery, can
help calm down angry feelings. There are books and courses that can teach
you relaxation techniques, and once you learn the techniques, you can call
upon them in any situation. If you are involved in a relationship where both
partners are hot-tempered, it might be a good idea for both of you to learn
these techniques.
Some simple steps you can try:
a.. Breathe deeply, from your diaphragm; breathing from your chest won't
relax you. Picture your breath coming up from your "gut."
b.. Slowly repeat a calm word or phrase such as "relax," "take it easy."
Repeat it to yourself while breathing deeply.
c.. Use imagery; visualize a relaxing experience, from either your memory
or your imagination.
d.. Nonstrenuous, slow yoga-like exercises can relax your muscles and make
you feel much calmer.
Practice these techniques daily. Learn to use them automatically when you're
in a tense situation.
Cognitive Restructuring
Simply put, this means changing the way you think. Angry people tend to
curse, swear, or speak in highly colorful terms that reflect their inner
thoughts. When you're angry, your thinking can get very exaggerated and
overly dramatic. Try replacing these thoughts with more rational ones. For
instance, instead of telling yourself, "oh, it's awful, it's terrible,
everything's ruined," tell yourself, "it's frustrating, and it's
understandable that I'm upset about it, but it's not the end of the world
and getting angry is not going to fix it anyhow."
Be careful of words like "never" or "always" when talking about yourself or
someone else. "This !&*%@ machine never works," or "you're always forgetting
things" are not just inaccurate, they also serve to make you feel that your
anger is justified and that there's no way to solve the problem. They also
alienate and humiliate people who might otherwise be willing to work with
you on a solution.
Remind yourself that getting angry is not going to fix anything, that it
won't make you feel better (and may actually make you feel worse).
Logic defeats anger, because anger, even when it's justified, can quickly
become irrational. So use cold hard logic on yourself. Remind yourself that
the world is "not out to get you," you're just experiencing some of the
rough spots of daily life. Do this each time you feel anger getting the best
of you, and it'll help you get a more balanced perspective. Angry people
tend to demand things: fairness, appreciation, agreement, willingness to do
things their way. Everyone wants these things, and we are all hurt and
disappointed when we don't get them, but angry people demand them, and when
their demands aren't met, their disappointment becomes anger. As part of
their cognitive restructuring, angry people need to become aware of their
demanding nature and translate their expectations into desires. In other
words, saying, "I would like" something is healthier than saying, "I demand"
or "I must have" something. When you're unable to get what you want, you
will experience the normal reactions庸rustration, disappointment, hurt傭ut
not anger. Some angry people use this anger as a way to avoid feeling hurt,
but that doesn't mean the hurt goes away.
Problem Solving
Sometimes, our anger and frustration are caused by very real and inescapable
problems in our lives. Not all anger is misplaced, and often it's a healthy,
natural response to these difficulties. There is also a cultural belief that
every problem has a solution, and it adds to our frustration to find out
that this isn't always the case. The best attitude to bring to such a
situation, then, is not to focus on finding the solution, but rather on how
you handle and face the problem.
Make a plan, and check your progress along the way. Resolve to give it your
best, but also not to punish yourself if an answer doesn't come right away.
If you can approach it with your best intentions and efforts and make a
serious attempt to face it head-on, you will be less likely to lose patience
and fall into all-or-nothing thinking, even if the problem does not get
solved right away.
Better Communication
Angry people tend to jump to預nd act on幼onclusions, and some of those
conclusions can be very inaccurate. The first thing to do if you're in a
heated discussion is slow down and think through your responses. Don't say
the first thing that comes into your head, but slow down and think carefully
about what you want to say. At the same time, listen carefully to what the
other person is saying and take your time before answering.
Listen, too, to what is underlying the anger. For instance, you like a
certain amount of freedom and personal space, and your "significant other"
wants more connection and closeness. If he or she starts complaining about
your activities, don't retaliate by painting your partner as a jailer, a
warden, or an albatross around your neck.
It's natural to get defensive when you're criticized, but don't fight back.
Instead, listen to what's underlying the words: the message that this person
might feel neglected and unloved. It may take a lot of patient questioning
on your part, and it may require some breathing space, but don't let your
anger熔r a partner's様et a discussion spin out of control. Keeping your cool
can keep the situation from becoming a disastrous one.
Using Humor
"Silly humor" can help defuse rage in a number of ways. For one thing, it
can help you get a more balanced perspective. When you get angry and call
someone a name or refer to them in some imaginative phrase, stop and picture
what that word would literally look like. If you're at work and you think of
a coworker as a "dirtbag" or a "single-cell life form," for example, picture
a large bag full of dirt (or an amoeba) sitting at your colleague's desk,
talking on the phone, going to meetings. Do this whenever a name comes into
your head about another person. If you can, draw a picture of what the
actual thing might look like. This will take a lot of the edge off your
fury; and humor can always be relied on to help unknot a tense situation.
The underlying message of highly angry people, Dr. Deffenbacher says, is
"things oughta go my way!" Angry people tend to feel that they are morally
right, that any blocking or changing of their plans is an unbearable
indignity and that they should NOT have to suffer this way. Maybe other
people do, but not them!
When you feel that urge, he suggests, picture yourself as a god or goddess,
a supreme ruler, who owns the streets and stores and office space, striding
alone and having your way in all situations while others defer to you. The
more detail you can get into your imaginary scenes, the more chances you
have to realize that maybe you are being unreasonable; you'll also realize
how unimportant the things you're angry about really are. There are two
cautions in using humor. First, don't try to just "laugh off" your problems;
rather, use humor to help yourself face them more constructively. Second,
don't give in to harsh, sarcastic humor; that's just another form of
unhealthy anger expression.
What these techniques have in common is a refusal to take yourself too
seriously. Anger is a serious emotion, but it's often accompanied by ideas
that, if examined, can make you laugh.
Do You Need Counseling?
If you feel that your anger is really out of control, if it is having an
impact on your relationships and on important parts of your life, you might
consider counseling to learn how to handle it better. A psychologist or
other licensed mental health professional can work with you in developing a
range of techniques for changing your thinking and your behavior.
Bartholomew Simpson
have to adhere to a higher standard, IMO, if we are to ever be able to break
through. And acting like thugs and crybababys isn't going to do it (looking
like bums doesn't help either). Also, not a lot of equipment or related
tie-ins for poker. Buy brand "xyz" tables because they're what the
professionals use? Not likely. So and so drinks this brand of water while
he plays, so should you! The World Champion insists on Brand X playing
cards, don't leave home without them!
See you at the tables,
Bart
"Eric Rosenberg" <er...@liveactionpoker.com> wrote in message
news:uli224e...@corp.supernews.com...
Brian Court
> "CRIME SCENE" TAPE AT THE BIKE
>
> Phil's outburst started when he lost a hand just before the break.
> His opponent had flooped nut low and wound up scooping. Phil uttered
> the "F" word, crashed his chair into the wall in back of him and
> stormed through the hall for the glass doors leading outside. He
> kicked one of the doors and broke it off its lower hinges.
>
> Phil was first given a 20 minute penalty for violating the "F" word
> rule. Then he was told to report to the Torunament Director for
> further punishment for the destruction of the door hinges.
>
> The Tournament Director suspended Phil from play for the night, and
> retired the $1,280 in chips that Phil had left at that point.
>
> I was told that Phil did not take well to the ban and threatened to
> sue the Bike. Therefore, the Bike called the Bell Gardens police to
> come so the casino could file an incident report. When I looked out
Threatened to sue the Bike? If this is true Hellmuth is even more of
a jackass then I thought.
Brian C.
William Loughborough
"Chuck Humphrey" <ceh...@REMOVEarthlink.net> wrote in message
news:eu4hlukb0sjmrbeq8...@4ax.com...
> I understand that Phil did call the Bike after he left the
> premises to say he was sorry and that he was not going to sue.
>
Phil is the prototype for my wife's favorite old cracker saying: "he thinks
his shit don't stink, but his farts give him away."
Love.
alden chase tyro
> The words below are his:
> I feel bad that I can't control my emotions better.
> Hopefully, someday soon I will learn to control my emotions better.
Phil,
Hope will not get the job done. You have been saying this for years.
It will take commitment and an intention on your part to control your
anger. If you really want to make progress in this area, you will
have to take responsibility and take action. See a psychologist, take
an anger management course, join a twelve step program or all three.
It might even improve your poker results. I wish you well.
Alden Chase (tyro)
Lamont Cranston
Go home and practice.
OrangeSFO
Is there ANY chance you will be retiring your "I'm a family man/I love
my kids" routine?
While the sentiment is doubtlessly true, are you the only person who
hasn't noticed that you only trot it out when you're on the ropes
defending another boorish outburst? Pretty sad attempt at deflection.
I think the phrase is "human shield."
You say you need to grow up? Then take your penalty like a grown-up.
(And if you insist on always dragging your family into the
conversation, maybe you should consider behaving in a way that makes
your family proud).
KookieMonstr
he is great for the poker world. The poker community needs outrageous
"stars" that have personalities and bring fun to the game. People
like Phil Hellmuth and Mike Caro are some of the most interesting
people to watch in the game. If the sport of poker was restricted to
only quiet calm slugs, the tournament scene would be quite boring and
would fail to attract the attention of a younger audience, and nobody
would watch the wpt on tv - please. A basketball analogy: Tim Duncan
and Grant Hill are nice players, and we enjoy their game, but the
people who really draw in the young people and excite the crowds are
the players like Dennis Rodman and Alan Iverson who through their wild
antics and off-court drama add an extra dimension of excitement to the
game. And, I might add, their games dont suck either - much like Phil
Hellmuth.
And about the rudeness comment, I bet almost all of us would be mad
after busting out of a big tournament - and even if you are normally a
very friendly person, you might not fell like talking to a random
person walking by at that particular time. It's a timing issue.
So, I'll share my experience of Phil at the Legends tournament: I was
playing in my first "real" tournament at the inaugural event of the
Legends, the $100 buy-in limit hold-em game. I have played for only a
couple years, and only at local casinos, no large tournaments. I was
hoping to meet some of the big stars, and just see how I would do in a
large event. Well, after we were down to about 10 tables we had a
break and I went over to Phil and asked for an autograph, and he
gladly wrote a nice comment and signed my Legends picture. Eventually
we both got the final table, and although he didn't know me, he was
very kind and engaged me in conversation about what I did for a living
and where I could find a good game where I lived (much better than the
other world champion at the table, who I might add seemed very
condescending.) Overall my experience was great, a lot in part to
Phil's entertainment at the final table. (He put someone on pocket 77
after a board of J, K, 4, Q, 3 and called with 10's. Nice call Phil.)
It seems to me that the punishment he received was in order after his
current outburst. We should lighten up a little bit and look at the
good he does for poker, and realize that many of us feel the same way
when we get beat, and might even react in a similar manner - we just
dont have a million wannabes needling us when we bust out of a
tournament.
Asher Lower.
Dsklansky
In case anybody reads this post out of context, the only thing I wrote is
that Phil underestimates short term luck.
Coach
thinks
> his shit don't stink, but his farts give him away."
I've never heard that one before! WOW! I've got a new one... THANKS!
Coach
eleaticus
> Phil
> You have won your share of money in th epoker world, I am the one who should
> break all doors, but after I loose time after time I stand up and walk away
> like a man. I remember, a few years ago, I tried to talk to you after you were
> busted from a tournament, you walked away without even looking at me. That
> told me how much class you have. I have never felt talking to you after that
> night. People like to deserve what they get.
> Guss GH.
While I have found Phil enjoyable as commentator on championship poker
videos, my main memory is of him whining about someone calling his
trash with trash and busting him out.
Eleaticus
Newgca
>
>Do you have any idea ho
Does he kick the dog?
Newgca
>Weideman will explain further, to Phil and Mark Napolitano as well.
Maybe I will explain it in a different way. Neither of these clowns could
survive playing poker for a living. If they weren't brown-nosing they would be
up shit creek.
Phil got lucky early in life and thought he was a player. That is the problem
with these [haha] tournament champions. They are fodder for any cash player.
When will people realize they are being sold a bunch of BS on these
tournaments. Tournaments require a minimal skill compared to cash games.
In poker, if you can't beat the cash games, you are history anyway.
Russ [sugar coater] Georgiev
Newgca
>that Phil underestimates short term luck.
>
You mean the type that last 10 years or more?
Russ Georgiev
Newgca
>like a champion.
>
Luck is over.
Coach
news:376c77a6.02081...@posting.google.com...
"Although Phil gets criticized by everyone for his flamboyant behavior he is
great for the poker world. The poker community needs outrageous "stars"
that have personalities and bring fun to the game..."
Yes we do, however what we don't need is violent behavior from anybody.
Players with "character" do add something to the game. When Mr. Helmuth
wants to be, he can and is fun to be at a table with, I've had the pleasure.
I've also had the displeasure of the flip side! I was taught to treat others
like I want to be treated. I've been just as "disappointed" as Mr. Helmuth
when I get beat or knocked out of a tournament. I've even cussed (okay, I
said bad words) somewhat loudly. If I've offended anybody I will
apologize... I mean no disrespect. I do not get violent... never!
The WPT is a new beginning and validation for this great game. I don't think
we need WWF behavior!
Mr. Helmuth, Phil if I may, look me up if you need to discuss bad beat
behavior. I've got bad beat stories much better than you will EVER find at a
poker table. Hell, we can even smoke a stogie and have a beer and tell tall
(short ones for me) tales... and LAUGH!
Take care,
Coach
Barbara Yoon
>> Hi Everyone, Andy Glazer here... Phil Hellmuth is staying
>> at my house and so is accessing RGP from my account.
>> The words below are his:
Phil Hellmuth:
> Hi All... Tonight at the Bicycle Club casino in LA...I...left steaming
> for the break. I tried to kick open the glass door, but in my haste
> I kicked the wrong side of the door, and the bottom hinges of the
> door broke, leaving the door still attached by the top hinges only.
> ...frustration, and I feel bad that I can't control my emotions better.
> I need to grow up and handle losing better. I feel like an idiot...
> Hopefully, someday soon I will learn to control my emotions better.
> Hopefully, someday soon the poker world will realize that I'm a good
> family man that "Just needs a little fixin" (as Amarillo Slim would say).
> -Cheers, from an upset Phil Hellmuth Jr.
Phil -- Well, you do deserve credit here for 'doing the right thing'
in 'fessing up,' and not trying to 'weasel out'... But to get yourself
under better control is especially important for such a large guy as
yourself... And although it's really none of my business, suggest
that Andy make sure his homeowner's insurance is paid up to date
(and perhaps consider switching to a lower deductible).....OK?!
paul ladanyi
> I believe a large part of the reason Phil does this stuff is because he
> simply does not realize the large luck factor in poker. (One reason is because
> he started his career with a "rush". The other is that he apparantly hasn't
> bothered to study basic statistics.) Thus when he loses, he attributes it
> either to bad playing on his part or to unfair, in some sense, bad beats. If
> Weideman will explain further, to Phil and Mark Napolitano as well.
LOL
Your IQ might be high, but your EQ must be two digits at best.
NWBurbsCouple
Even my nine-year old daughter stopped using that excuse a couple years ago!
When someone doesdamage, whether they intended it or not, they need to accpet
responsibility for the conseqences.
2. "I'm a good family man."
As has been pointed out many times, that's irrelevant. This is a poker forum.
Let's not get into the personal life of players. Someone's behavior at a poker
tounament, and the director's response to it, is fair game.
NWBurbsCouple
You forgot to mention that you are kind to animals, donate to charities, and
love the flag.
NWBurbsCouple
>we need WWF behavior!
I don't mean to get off ona rant here, but....
Comparing Phil's behavior to that of the WWF is an insult...to the WWF.
At least with pro rasslers, the obnoxiousness is an act.
Poker needs more colorful characters like Phil? Just like basketball needs
more iversons? Ok, then I guess football needs more colorful characters like
OJ. And golf needs more John Dalys.
No sport--or society--needs people whose inner demons cause them to perform
anti-social acts. And surely no civilized society needs to celebrate those
anti-social acts and personalities.
But that's jsut my opinion. I could be wrong.
Tom Weideman
> I believe a large part of the reason Phil does this stuff is because he
> simply does not realize the large luck factor in poker. (One reason is because
> he started his career with a "rush". The other is that he apparantly hasn't
> bothered to study basic statistics.) Thus when he loses, he attributes it
> either to bad playing on his part or to unfair, in some sense, bad beats. If
> either was true it would be a reason to be angry. But neither is. Perhaps Tom
> Weideman will explain further, to Phil and Mark Napolitano as well.
Phil's a pretty smart fella - I don't think he needs a lecture in the luck
factor. There is only so much human beings can do to keep their emotions in
check by using their intellect. People who are "naturally emotional" can
only calm that down so much by reason. The only way to calm it down more is
by more focused and directed reason - psychotherapy (and I have to admit I
have my doubts about the efficacy of that, though I know some very smart
people that would probably assure me of its usefulness, so who am I to
argue).
A lecture for Napolitano would also be a waste of time, but for a totally
different reason.
Let's just say that almost no one in the poker world seems to understand on
a gut level the degree of luck involved in their game. My theory is that
human psychology evolved through trial-and-error learning which never
involved statistical sampling on the time scale required for determining
poker skill.
Tom Weideman
Rick Darnell
That goes for the majority of the name players, not just Phil.
Rick Darnell
tadperry
"Bjgkaraoke" <bjgka...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020813003336...@mb-mp.aol.com...
> Is their business so good they can afford to ban people so arbitrarily?
Gack!
You gotta be kidding.
I don't have a thing against Phil, I know what he means about "a family man
that needs some fixin'" but shit he kicked a door and broke it.
I think the cardroom taking a stance that this was unacceptable and being
firm is totally understandable. A one-day, "go cool off and think this
over".
And you think it's arbitrary, huh?
tvp
Linda Sherman
news:eu4hlukb0sjmrbeq8...@4ax.com...
> "CRIME SCENE" TAPE AT THE BIKE
>
> His opponent had flooped nut low and wound up scooping. Phil uttered
> the "F" word, crashed his chair into the wall in back of him and
> stormed through the hall for the glass doors leading outside. He
> kicked one of the doors and broke it off its lower hinges.
I'd hate to see what he does when he takes a BAD beat.
Lin
Bjgkaraoke
Helmuth door kicking one. Please don't quote me out of context. Thanks,
Barbara Gallamore
Danielnegreanu
>I was referring to another incident that was reported, not the Phil
>Helmuth door kicking one.
The other one was actually much worse, and the penalty more severe. Layne
Flack has been barred from the BIKE... permantly.
Layne was drunk that night, but that was still no excuse for threating
physical violence against the TD.
Layne is my friend, but I have to say that you can't blame Denny for barring
him after some of the things Layne said.
Phil, on the other hand was allowed back today after apologizing for his
outbreak. It was foolish of course, and Phil would be the first one to admit
it.
Daniel Negreanu
kidp...@hotmail.com
www.fullcontactpoker.com
Bjgkaraoke
phone, I didn't get the whole story. It was
reported quite differently by Patrick O'Malley than by you in the post below.
Barbara Gallamore
Jerrod Ankenman
Rick Darnell wrote:
> > >Phil,
> > >
> > >Why don't you just kill yourself and get it over.
> > >
> > >Sklanksky has such a perfect read on you, it's scary.
> > >
> > >Maverick
> >
> > In case anybody reads this post out of context, the only thing I wrote is
> > that Phil underestimates short term luck.
>
> That goes for the majority of the name players, not just Phil.
Why only the name players? Goes for just about all players I've ever
met. Including me.
Jerrod Ankenman
Dsklansky
>factor.
Tom Weideman
I know for a fact that you are mistaken. You may have missed the thread where
Phil contended that his A game gives him twice the chance of winning
tournaments as his B game. Impossible of course, except maybe in no limit
holdem.
>There is only so much human beings can do to keep their emotions in
>check by using their intellect.
I believe there is more that can be done than you think, especially as regards
to gambling. The main idea is to look at things EV wise where every bet is
thought of as a small earn regardless of the outcome. All blackjack pros learn
to think this way, since losing concentration after a bad beat is disastrous.
In fact I have noticed that all poker pros who came from blackjack do very
little steaming.
Larry W. (Wayno) Phillips
I have to agree with Weideman here. This doesn't have to do with
Phil not understanding the luck factor. It has to do with his
intellect (which knows it) failing to inform his emotions (it's
unfair!). That's where the disconnect occurs.
Wayno
Danielnegreanu
>
>When I questioned the Bicycle barring someone for saying the F-word on the
>phone, I didn't get the whole story. It was
>reported quite differently by Patrick O'Malley than by you in the post below.
>Barbara Gallamore
That did happen, but that's not why he was barred. He was down to three in
the tournament and said the F word, and was given a STRONG penalty. That
'slip' of the F word cost Layne a lot of money potentially. Too much probably,
but that's another issue.
He was later barred, after behaving aggressively toward the TD, and
threatened him with physical violence.
After talking with Denny, it became pretty apparant that Layne will not be
reinstated.
Daniel Negreanu
kidp...@hotmail.com
www.fullcontactpoker.com
Danielnegreanu
>From: Larr...@charter.net (Larry W. (Wayno) Phillips)
> I have to agree with Weideman here. This doesn't have to do with
>Phil not understanding the luck factor. It has to do with his
>intellect (which knows it) failing to inform his emotions (it's
>unfair!). That's where the disconnect occurs.
>
Personally I think it's clearly a combination of both. Sometimes Phil will
make mathematically incorrect laydowns in a NL tournament, because he over
values his abilities versus the rest of the field. He'll often say it, or
write a column about it.
He once wrote a column where he claimed to have folded the KQ of spades on a
10sJs2c board, after some dead money went into the pot.
He did that, thinking that he would be able to get all of his money in as a 4
to 1 favorite, rather than a small favorite. He was over valuing his edge over
the rest of the field, not realizing that luck plays a major role in tournament
success.
Believing that he could succeed by outplaying people, and avoiding all
marginal confrontation is faulty thinking. Thinking that likely comes from not
understanding the luck factor associated to any given hand.
Daniel Negreanu
kidp...@hotmail.com
www.fullcontactpoker.com
Dsklansky
>Phil not understanding the luck factor. It has to do with his
>intellect (which knows it) failing to inform his emotions (it's
>unfair!). That's where the disconnect occurs.
>
> Wayno
>
Both factors may be at work. But I know for a fact that I am at least partially
right. He has made statements and even bets that show he believes the best
players are greater favorites than they really are. And while you say you
disagree with Tom, I believe Tom himself would change his mind if he realized
that this underestimation of variance on Phil's part is a lot greater than
Daniel's, who he took to task.
Larry W. (Wayno) Phillips
>>I have to agree with Weideman here. This doesn't have to do with
>>Phil not understanding the luck factor. It has to do with his
>>intellect (which knows it) failing to inform his emotions (it's
>>unfair!). That's where the disconnect occurs.
>>
>> Wayno
>>
>
>Both factors may be at work. But I know for a fact that I am at least partially
>right. He has made statements and even bets that show he believes the best
>players are greater favorites than they really are. And while you say you
>agree with Tom, I believe Tom himself would change his mind if he realized
>that this underestimation of variance on Phil's part is a lot greater than
>Daniel's, who he took to task.
This may or may not be the case. But I think the numbers/
percentages still have to be connected to the emotions. A phone call
has to take place from one to the other. Simply knowing the numbers
alone won't do the trick. I can, for instance, know all the numbers
about the statistical rarity of plane crashes, and unless I
deliberately make some kind of "connect" to my fear of flying in some
way, instructing these emotions, then possession of the numbers alone
won't do any good. A poker analogy would be a player who knows the
precise variances at work but still goes on tilt at certain
game-points. It's an emotional reaction-- it's outside of
rationality. Meaning, you're trying to fit irrationality into
rationality. Not greatly, but somewhat.
Wayno
JohnnyD
to drink to the levels that they allow. I heard a "named" player, who was
obviously drunk, at the Orleans Open say things to a dealer that would, with
almost certainty, get him killed had it been said in some parts of the
world. The dealer acted with more restraint that he should have. These
players who cannot control what they say and do because of their level of
drinking, should be tossed from the tournaments or at a minimum be cut off
from ordering additional drinks.
JohnnyD
Tom Weideman
> I believe Tom himself would change his mind if he realized
> that this underestimation of variance on Phil's part is a lot greater than
> Daniel's, who he took to task.
It may have seemed like I was saying that Phil had a better grasp of this
than most people, but what I meant was that he isn't a total idiot about it,
and as such I could do him no good lecturing about it. It has been my
experience that people with Phil's knowledge of (and success at) the game
are typically unwilling or unable to unlearn their current beliefs regarding
the luck vs. skill element of poker.
I suspected this was the case all along, and it was confirmed for me when I
took Daniel (and Doyle and Howard) to task on it and received a great deal
of resistance. In fact, I was pretty sure that most of my posts on this
matter were (and will be, if I should do so again in the future) tantamount
to being "inside jokes" with the very few people that do have a reasonable
grasp of the luck factor. What's funny is that I don't believe I fully "get
it on a gut level" it either, but the difference between my instincts on
this matter and those of most people I discuss it with is night-and-day.
So I don't think I will be changing my mind. And I still think you way
overestimate how well someone can separate their emotions from their results
by use of their intellect. Your blackjack example has a cause-and-effect
problem - successful blackjack players are successful (in part) BECAUSE they
are capable of detaching themselves. Blackjack play is a FILTER for this
ability, not (much of) a training ground for it, as you seem to imply.
Please note that I believe this "view things as ev to stay off tilt when
losing" skill can be learned to a small extent, particularly by people with
scientific/mathematical bents to their nature. But I don't think trying to
force such a scientific world-view upon someone so that they might be a bit
better at acquiring this skill is going to be particularly fruitful.
Tom Weideman
Scott N
danieln...@aol.com (Danielnegreanu) wrote in
news:20020814002338...@mb-df.aol.com:
>>down door at Bicycle Casino
>>From: Larr...@charter.net (Larry W. (Wayno) Phillips)
>
>> I have to agree with Weideman here. This doesn't have to do with
>>Phil not understanding the luck factor. It has to do with his
>>intellect (which knows it) failing to inform his emotions (it's
>>unfair!). That's where the disconnect occurs.
>>
>
> Personally I think it's clearly a combination of both. Sometimes
> Phil will
> make mathematically incorrect laydowns in a NL tournament, because
he
> over values his abilities versus the rest of the field. He'll
often
> say it, or write a column about it.
> He once wrote a column where he claimed to have folded the KQ of
> spades on a
> 10sJs2c board, after some dead money went into the pot.
> He did that, thinking that he would be able to get all of his
money
> in as a 4
> to 1 favorite, rather than a small favorite. He was over valuing
his
> edge over the rest of the field, not realizing that luck plays a
major
> role in tournament success.
I am having trouble understanding this. How is having an open ended
straight-flush draw to a Royal Flush a SMALL favorite?
Yes, from here, he is *just* even-money against 9 random hands! But
against 4 opponents with random hands(typical tourny hand, maybe even
too high. 3?), my calculations say Phil is a 60% winner by the time
this hand is complete.
Unless you can be certain someone flopped trips which would tip
this hand into a slight dog. Then I MAYBE can see his thinking having
some merit. A big maybe. Especially with the high luck factor of a
tournament. What else is he waiting for? Flopped Quads?
I bet Men would cap the betting in this spot (assuming Limit) while
knocking his beer over in the process from excitement.
> Believing that he could succeed by outplaying people, and
avoiding
> all
> marginal confrontation is faulty thinking. Thinking that likely
comes
> from not understanding the luck factor associated to any given
hand.
>
Couldn't have said it better myself. Great statement..
Scott N
LouKrieger
From: dskl...@aol.com (Dsklansky)
I believe there is more that can be done than you think, especially as regards
to gambling. The main idea is to look at things EV wise where every bet is
thought of as a small earn regardless of the outcome. All blackjack pros learn
to think this way, since losing concentration after a bad beat is disastrous.
In fact I have noticed that all poker pros who came from blackjack do very
little steaming. <<
Looking at things in terms of EV is incredibly helpful because to do so means
that one is taking a long term view of the game, and is not overly influenced
by the immedicay of short-term situations.
But the essence of this, it appears to me, lies in the exercise of willpower
and self control. It can be both very easy and incredibly difficult, simply
because it is left to each of us to decide whether our locus of control will
come from within, or whether we will allow external factors to drive our
behavior.
When we see only the short run, and look to place the blame outside ouselves,
our inclination is to kick in doors. When we take the longer view (using the
EV perspective, as it were) we don't tilt and we take things in stride -- even
if we wind up muttering that good, old RGP catchphrase, "...nice hand sir, well
played" to ourselves, under our breath.
Manny
It's not only irrelevant. Its untrue. Maybe it's just me, but I cannot
consider a man who throws a temper tantrum and destroys public
property when something doesn't go his way to be a good family man.
My old man (a truly good family man) used to drop the occasional
F-bomb on the golf course while frustrated, but he never broke things
or lost his temper or (especially) berated others.
*IF* Phil's kids grow up to behave the same way he does, then he'll
see just what kind of a family man he is.
PETER FREDERIK
> Warning - bad joke followed by soap-box diatribe and leading to my opinion
> that this will discourage corporate sponsorship.
>
> Why is divorce so expensive? Because it's worth it.
>
>
> Now, onto the Phil matter:
>
> I was on the poker circuit for a while, about 6 years ago. One of the
> BIGGEST disappointments I had when I first started playing was the
> temperament of the players about whom I had been reading for years. I
> should have know better, since I was well aware of the gambling scene in
> general and the types that it attracts (more than your average share of
> egomaniacs with short tempers), but the picture which had been painted of
> these players in magazines was of professionals, not of the whiny, crybaby,
> temper-tantrum throwing a_holes with which I found myself playing. After
> playing for a short time, there was no question in my mind that corporate
> sponsorship was a long way away. And, due to acts like this, probably still
> IS a long way away. It was a rare DAY which went by that didn't see some
> kind of behavior which would make a sponsor CRINGE. Cursing, throwing cards
> at the dealers or players, spitting at the dealer or other players, out and
> out fist-fights. Usually all accompanied by top of the lung screaming. If
> not at the tournament themselves, then at the side games which were being
> held in the tournament area. When I inquired why incidents like this were
> not reported, the standard answer I received at the time was that, while the
> people involved in publishing were vehemently opposed to such behavior, and
> even talked with / berated the offenders, they didn't feel it was in the
> best interest of poker to publish the fact that a lot of the top players
> (not all, but enough), are spoiled, ego-maniacal, a_holes. Also, poker
> players were not willing to hold the a_holes responsible. Everyone has some
> friends, and even people who didn't like it were content with letting it
> pass, as opposed to calling the offenders to task. If something happened
> one day, the WORST that could be expected was for them to receive a
> temporary ban (i.e., go home and come back tomorrow), and often times,
> nothing was done whatsoever other than telling the player that such behavior
> wouldn't be tolerated (even though it was, even with repeated incidents).
> Often the recounting of such incidents go out of their way to favor the
> player in question (such as the above recounting where it looks like a
> person was banned for cursing and we only find out from a subsequent poster
> that a casino employee's life was threatened.)
>
> Now, I start to look into the poker scene 6 years later, and, while I
> haven't been to a B&M tournament (yet), it really doesn't seem like much has
> changed, based on things I have heard from people with whom I have gotten
> back in contact. Oh, I think that people have tried to do wonderful things.
> And it does seem like SLIGHTLY more is being done to discourage bad
> behavior. But the one thing which remains is that a_holes, even admitted
> ones who later apologize, are still in full force. They are not willing to
> take responsibility for their actions, and people (the poker community at
> large) are not willing to hold them responsible.
>
> IMO, until MORE is done to make players aware that bad behavior will not
> be tolerated, and enforce that it will not be tolerated to such an extent
> that the people involved are motivated to change their behavior (which they
> have apparently not been motivated to do so far), corporate sponsorship will
> remain an elusive dream.
>
>
> I, for one (nobody that I am), applaud the decision of the Bike and wish
> that they would extend the disqualification to the remainder of the
> tournaments, or at the very least make it a several day expulsion /
> suspension.
>
> And, let me add, I have nothing, personal or otherwise, against Phil. I
> just think that acts like this are bad for poker and should be punished
> severely. How about the next time he wins something, everyone gets up and
> boos - okay, maybe fighting immaturity with childish behavior isn't the best
> suggestion :-) But players in general letting Phil know that he
> disappointed them and caused a black eye for poker might not be a bad thing.
>
> See you at the tables,
> Bart
>
> "NChrisH" <nch...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20020813011148...@mb-fo.aol.com...
> > << Subject: Re: Phil Hellmuth "kicks" down door at Bicycle Casino
> > Date: Mon, Aug 12, 2002 9:40 PM
> > Message-id: <20020813004031...@mb-da.aol.com>
> >
> > In article <Qv%59.13515$Ue7....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>, "Patrick B.
> O'Malley"
> > <pbo...@verizon.net> writes:
> >
> > >...The "fuck" penalty was
> > >basically a $10,000 penalty as well...
> >
> > It's often much higher if you marry in a community property state.
> >
> > Peg >>
> >
> > Speaking from personal experience?
> > Yeah, it's cheaper to kill them than divorce them sometimes.
> >
> > Chris H.
> >
> > :) Smile, it's only money.
> >
Ladies and gentlemen,
After reading Bartholomew Simpson's post, I must say that I totally
disagree.
All this disbehavior is eventually going to do poker, especially
corporate sponsored tournament poker very, very good.
I'm an agent for a small marketing company in L.A. , and I've
contacted several big corporations for sponsorship in major poker
tournaments.
The companies want to come up with a Jerry Springer concept, where
cursing, violence and drinking will be premium, naturally no cheating
can be exposed, which would be bad for poker.
So far I have the following companies, which are willing to endorse
the following players in the $100,000 range:
Mike Laing Jack Daniels
T.J. Cloutier Nicorette
Tom McEvoy Giorgio Armani
Scotty Nguyen Michelob
Eskimo Clark HairBack.com
David Levy ElAl
Chris Fergusson Super Sam's Haircut
Arizona Jill Hustler Magazine
Russ Hammilton Slimfast
Paul Phillips Microsoft
Jerry Buss L.A.Lakers
Brent Carter Big Gulp
Hans "Tuna" Lund Subway
Phil Ivy Colgate
Steve Flicker BetWithMe.com
Paul Ladanyi KEM Plastic Cards
Barbara Enright Big Denny's Casino & Resort
John Juanda Boy Scouts of America
Mike Longo Toyota
Johnny Hale Himself
Barry Shulman Card Player
Cowboy Wolford Wrangler
Dan Heimiller Bausch & Lomb
Phil Hellmuth Ely Lilly
Layne Flack Coors Light
Tony Ma Oakley (Sunglasses)
Cindy Violette Playboy Magazine
John Bonetti American.Seniors.Snork.Edu
Frank Hendersom Loans.com
Allen Cunningham Universal Studio
Brial Nadell Phillip Morris
David Plastik Exxon Oil
Randy Holland New.Home.com
Avner Levy Miller Brewing Co.
Kathy Liebert Goldman Sacks
Annie Duke Mothers Against Drunk Drivers
Men Nguyen Corona
Lou Krieger MENSA
Burger King tried very hard to get Warren Karp, but the other
companies objected, they want Warren to be tournament director, so no
cheating will be exposed, which would be bad for corporate
sponsorship.
Russ Giorgiev was going to do the write-ups, but again the sponsors
objected, so Maxwell Shapiro will be invited to do this, if he remains
neutral and does not open his mouth during final table play, no expert
advise allowed.
This tournnament, will be filmed by the people from WWF, Eric Drake
will take care of the pay outs, and more sponsors are appreciated.
Please give me any input, this is going to be huge, food fights,
puking, slow rolling, strip-tease, dealers with hockey gear, and
something nothing you have ever seen before...
Gary Carson
>nwburb...@aol.com (NWBurbsCouple) wrote in message
news:<20020813163419...@mb-mv.aol.com>...
>> 1. "But I didn't mean to!!!!!"
>>
>> Even my nine-year old daughter stopped using that excuse a couple
years ago!
>>
>> When someone doesdamage, whether they intended it or not, they need
to accpet
>> responsibility for the conseqences.
>>
>> 2. "I'm a good family man."
>>
>> As has been pointed out many times, that's irrelevant. This is a
poker forum.
>> Let's not get into the personal life of players. Someone's
behavior at a poker
>> tounament, and the director's response to it, is fair game.
>
>It's not only irrelevant. Its untrue. Maybe it's just me, but I
cannot
>consider a man who throws a temper tantrum and destroys public
>property when something doesn't go his way to be a good family man.
I think what Phil means is that he doesn't kick his kids hard enough
to break anything.
Gary Carson
http:// garycarson.home.mindspring.com
Steve N
"Danielnegreanu" <danieln...@aol.com> wrote in message >
Phil, on the other hand was allowed back today after apologizing for his
> outbreak. It was foolish of course, and Phil would be the first one to
admit
> it. >
A post-script for those interested: Last night when Phil busted out of the
tourney, he left quietly, with only a small quantity of mutterings about his
bad luck and limited animated gestures. I didn't hear the sound of any
doors being kicked in either :)
Steve N
Danielnegreanu
>I am having trouble understanding this. How is having an open ended
>straight-flush draw to a Royal Flush a SMALL favorite?
It wasn't. But Phil sometimes believes that any hand that isn't a 4 to 1
favorite is a 'small favorite' :-)
The game was no limit, and Phil had already put money in the pot...
Daniel Negreanu
kidp...@hotmail.com
www.fullcontactpoker.com
William Loughborough
"Larry W. (Wayno) Phillips" <Larr...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:3d59cd9c....@news.cis.dfn.de...
> That's where the disconnect occurs.
>
Nitpicker(?) says "It ain't a "the" it's an "a". The disconnect David speaks
of is still in place whether it correlates with "over-ego" or not.
The most cursory (and hopefully objective) read of Daniel's extensive posts
makes both propositions clear: 1) he's clueless as to how lucky he's been;
2) his flatulence does reveal the aroma of his feces.
Love.
William Loughborough
"Tom Weideman" <zwi...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:B97F46D1.18317%zwi...@attbi.com...
> But I don't think trying to
> force such a scientific world-view upon someone so that they might be a
bit
> better at acquiring this skill is going to be particularly fruitful.
>
You might be willing to rethink this after reading "Behavior of Organisms"
by B.F. Skinner. Just as so few poker players have any clue whatsoever as to
the importance of luck (a glance at the EV rankings at pokerroom.com is
instructive in this area), so very few traditionally-valued folks appreciate
how much like other organisms people in fact are.
Love.
Bjgkaraoke
>players who cannot control what they say and do because of their level of
>drinking, should be tossed from the tournaments or at a minimum be cut off
>from ordering additional drinks.
I've seen this in ring games many times. Coctail waitresses will keep
delivering drinks to obviously drunk players. By the way, this is against
California law. Casino employees (floor men and waitresses especially) need to
be briefed about this. I worry about what happens when the drunk leaves the
casino and gets into a car. Does the casino take any responsibility for how
the drunk gets home?
Barbara Gallamore
Steve N
"Bjgkaraoke" <bjgka...@aol.com> wrote in message >
> I've seen this in ring games many times. Coctail waitresses will keep
> delivering drinks to obviously drunk players. By the way, this is against
> California law. Casino employees (floor men and waitresses especially)
need to
> be briefed about this. <
Its interesting that the only time I ever saw a poker player "cut off" by a
cardroom was at Hollywood Park, when the shift manager cut off Layne Flack,
who then proceeded to complain to the bartender :)
Steve N
Tajiri Will Kill
bother me, I in no way resemble a door so I'm not threatened) and Phil is
notorious for outbursts but let's get some perspective. First off, as for the
"bad for poker" point, does anyone actually *watch* TV? Phil acting like Phil
made Late Night Poker way more entertaining than it usually is. If poker on TV
is going to work it will need characters and personalities; not ten (or six,
however it's formatted) obedient, colorless, indistinguishable humans sitting
around a table saying please and thank you. Yeah poker will look very
respectable -- to the seventeen people watching the show. No, it wouldn't be
good for the image of poker to have ten Phils sitting around the table
screaming at each other but one or two characters is essential. I can't stress
that enough actually, it will *DIE* without some personalities.
Secondly, I know everyone loves to pick on Phil, but didn't Layne Flack, you
know, the Layne Flack that's currently # 1 in the rankings, just get banned for
threatening a human being? If you want to talk about morality, in my book,
threatening a human is way worse than injuring a door. What are all you all a
bunch of door-hugging hippies :) Get some perspective and go complain about
touchdown dancing or something.
Larry W. (Wayno) Phillips
>
>"Larry W. (Wayno) Phillips" <Larr...@charter.net> wrote in message
>news:3d59cd9c....@news.cis.dfn.de...
>> On 14 Aug 2002 03:19:26 GMT, dskl...@aol.com (Dsklansky) wrote:
>>
>
>> That's where the disconnect occurs.
>>
>
>Nitpicker(?) says "It ain't a "the" it's an "a". The disconnect David speaks
>of is still in place whether it correlates with "over-ego" or not.
The more I think about this, the less I see how the two ideas are
connected at all. Assuming a lack of correct perception of variance
to be true-- let's say that it is true, for the sake of argument--
that still doesn't "direct" an outburst to occur. A counter-argument
is other people who have poor conceptions of variance but don't have
an outburst, as well as (argument #2) the times Phil is correct in his
perception. (Let's say he's a 10:1 favorite on the river, he thinks
he is, feels he is, and he actually IS, and he gets sucked out on, and
has an outburst. In this case, he was "correct" in his perception, yet
still had an outburst.) In favor of the other side of the argument is
that he (mostly) only has an outburst during suck-outs (am I right?).
This would be an even weaker argument otherwise.
An outburst is an outburst. Having an inaccurate picture of
variance might afford more opportunities for it to occur (contributing
factor), but it doesn't 'cause' it.
In my view, it's not failing to have the proper picture of
variance-- it's failing to inform one's "inner child" (Phil or
anybody, I'm saying). of something.
>The most cursory (and hopefully objective) read of Daniel's extensive posts
>makes both propositions clear: 1) he's clueless as to how lucky he's been;
>2) his flatulence does reveal the aroma of his feces.
>
>Love.
Just my 2 cents,
Wayno
Irish Mike
in particular, to stop making excuses for Phil Helmuth. The man is an
immature, self-centered braggart with less emotional control than the
average two year old child. His temper tantrums, derogatory comments
and grand-standing are an embarassment to the entire poker industry.
My personal opinion is that the management of the Bike was wrong for
barring him for 24 hours - they should have barred him for a year.
There is simply no excuse for his behavior and no reason for poker
room management to tolerate it.
Everyone in poker takes bad beats - its part of the game and a
mathmatical certainty if you are a frequent player. The difference is
how you handle them, and I would expect a professional to set an
exmaple for new players.
I played in a tournament at the Grand in Tunica last week with Jack
Keller. I saw him take a bad beat that nearly knocked him out of the
tournament. He didn't kick any doors off their hinges. In fact, he
didn't say anything and went on to win the tournament. I don't know
Keller personally, but I was impressed by his professionalism.
Irish Mike
Dsklansky
>problem - successful blackjack players are successful (in part) BECAUSE they
>are capable of detaching themselves. Blackjack play is a FILTER for this
>ability, not (much of) a training ground for it, as you seem to imply
My experience is that it IS a good training ground.
Bartholomew Simpson
I guess that I am just of the opinion that you can have an interesting
personality without that personality being one of a whiny crybaby throwing a
temper tantrum. Although, as recently pointed out, that may just be a
criteria for getting into the Hall of Fame, in which case I would excuse it
:-)
Others have mentioned (and I would agree, from personal experience), that
Phil CAN be fun to play with at the table - and I'm not referring to pulling
his strings in order to get him to go off, which is, or at least used to be
(I have no current 1st hand knowledge, but anecdotal evidence would indicate
that it still is), easy to do ;-)
See you at the tables,
Bart
"Tajiri Will Kill" <tajiriw...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020814125315...@mb-mv.aol.com...
DaVoice
I've played a lot of hands with "Gentleman Jack" Keller in Tunica and in
Biloxi. I remember one in particular during a satellite for the "Southern
Classic" a couple of years ago. Jack had flopped a set of A's, I had
flopped two big pair.
Jack AsAh
Me Kc Qc
Flop: Ac Kd Qd
I bet, Jack raised, I re-raised, he called
Turn: Tc
River: you guessed it Jc
Jack had a few less chips than I and even though it was limit, I managed to
get him all in and double up with a royal. Jack never showed ANY sort of
anger, animosity, or bad behavior, in fact he shook my hand and went quietly
away from the table.
I have always tried my best to NOT have public outbursts (although I did
have a small one during barge) and think that Jack is truly a good role
model for professionalism at the poker tables.
As far as the original thoughts I had on the report of Phil's actions at the
Bike, I can only ask one question of Denny and the others involved but will
preface it with the fact that I really do like Phil Hellmuth, even though
this was way out of line. Here is the question:
If John Q. Public entered your casino, took a bad beat and (intentional or
not) kicked a door off of its hinges, would they only be given a 24 hour
penalty?
Rick "DaVoice" Charles
"Irish Mike" <mjo...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:ddd88c79.02081...@posting.google.com...
William Loughborough
> On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 "William Loughborough" wrote:
>
doesn't 'cause' it.
Aha! the old correlation/causation discussion. Is there a correlation
between "outbursts" and "superstition" (or the ego-induced self-perception
of "I play better than that, God must be against me"). Quote me on this:
"causation is a myth propagated by folks with agendas".
Now if we really hip people who have the "correct" viewpoint on the % played
by luck in this game don't get as upset over the inevitable mostly losing
hands, perhaps we can evaluate and even propose fixes - just don't fix it so
well that our TV ratings suffer from Phil saying "nice hand" with a genuine
smile as surfers long for the "old pokerbrat".
Love.
Chuck Humphrey
>I know everyone has to act outraged at such behavior (personally it doesn't
>bother me, I in no way resemble a door so I'm not threatened) and Phil is
>notorious for outbursts but let's get some perspective.
I believe the reason people relish Phil's outbursts, and like to join
the attack on him for them, is a response to Phil's tournament playing
style. Initially, he usually shows what is taken as his disdain for
others in the tournament and his own inflated ego by showing up 45
minutes to two hours late.
When he does take his seat, he quickly begins loud
braggadocio--pretentious bragging in a swaggering, cocky manner.
This behavior is disliked by some at the table, especially those to
whom Phil's adverse comments or self-serving banter are directed,
Many view the behavior as trying to get others to go on tilt. We all
dislike that kind of behavior since it almost always involves the
inducer either (1) building himself up at the expense of others or (2)
outright putting down others.
Phil's behavior during tournaments and his outbursts when he loses
control may make good theater. They do not make a pleasant atmosphere
to play in.
Chuck Humphrey
Mackie
> In article <Qv%59.13515$Ue7....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>, "Patrick B. O'Malley"
> <pbo...@verizon.net> writes:
>
> >...The "fuck" penalty was
> >basically a $10,000 penalty as well...
>
> It's often much higher if you marry in a community property state.
>
> Peg
ROTFLMAO
best post I've read this year :-)
Larry W. (Wayno) Phillips
>
>"Larry W. (Wayno) Phillips" <Larr...@charter.net> wrote in message
>news:3d5a8996....@news.cis.dfn.de...
>> On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 "William Loughborough" wrote:
>>
> >...more opportunities for it to occur (contributing factor), but it
>doesn't 'cause' it.
>
>Aha! the old correlation/causation discussion.
There's free will that exists in here somewhere,
Loughborough--!! most likely in that brief interlude that takes place
between suckout and kickout.
>Is there a correlation
>between "outbursts" and "superstition" (or the ego-induced self-perception
>of "I play better than that, God must be against me").
I speak with the authority of someone whom God was against all
last week.*
>Now if we really hip people who have the "correct" viewpoint on the % played
>by luck in this game don't get as upset over the inevitable mostly losing
>hands, perhaps we can evaluate and even propose fixes - just don't fix it so
>well that our TV ratings suffer from Phil saying "nice hand" with a genuine
>smile as surfers long for the "old pokerbrat".
>
>Love.
*Note: Includes weekend
Mackie
will just bring you more criticism, because we've heard it before.
May I suggest "I can't control my temper and that's not going to
change. Stay tuned for my next outburst - it will be entertaining!"
Glenn
"William Loughborough" <lov...@gorge.net> wrote in message
news:ulktv3l...@corp.supernews.com...
Dennis Shuflin
> From: andrew...@medtronic.com (Mackie)
The really funny thing is that people still get married under such a
midieval system.
Lone Locust of the Apocalypse
>I worry about what happens when the drunk leaves the casino and gets
>into a car. Does the casino take any responsibility for how the drunk
>gets home?
Apparently not in California or Nevada.
Under "Choose a Law" select "Social Host" and submit.
-- Z.
____
"Well, I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy \ /
sedation." [_Spinal Tap_] \/
wg bradley
host action would not prevail in those states.
It could just be that nobody has successfully advanced such a case in those
states? You have to dig a little deeper and read some cases.
"Lone Locust of the Apocalypse" <zo...@ninthbit.com> wrote in message
news:ajedsq$cdf$1...@zaphod.ninthbit.com...
Peg Smith
mjo...@ameritech.net (Irish Mike) writes:
>...Everyone in poker takes bad beats...
Whoa! Hold the phone! Stop the presses! I thought you didn't believe in bad
beats?
Otherwise, very fine post.
Peg :-)
AcesFu...@yahoo.com
============================
On 14 Aug 2002 10:21:05 -0700, mjo...@ameritech.net (Irish Mike)
wrote:
AcesFull
NChrisH
Date: Wed, Aug 14, 2002 8:37 AM
Message-id: <20020814113740...@mb-cj.aol.com>
>These
>players who cannot control what they say and do because of their level of
>drinking, should be tossed from the tournaments or at a minimum be cut off
>from ordering additional drinks.
I've seen this in ring games many times. Coctail waitresses will keep
delivering drinks to obviously drunk players. By the way, this is against
California law. Casino employees (floor men and waitresses especially) need to
be briefed about this. I worry about what happens when the drunk leaves the
casino and gets into a car. Does the casino take any responsibility for how
the drunk gets home?
Barbara Gallamore >>
Only when they are named in the civil lawsuit that follows an accident. Having
owned two bars in CA I can tell you that our insurance companies insisted we
have a policy not to serve intoxicated patrons and training for staff on
enforcing this policy.
Chris H.
NChrisH
Date: Wed, Aug 14, 2002 10:30 AM
Message-id: <20020814133008...@mb-fr.aol.com>
I agree with David on this. I definetly beleive that my balckjack play helped
my poker playing. I do not steam or tilt at either game.
Chris H.
Rick Nebiolo
You wrote:,
>Its interesting that the only time I ever saw a poker player "cut off" by a
>cardroom was at Hollywood Park, when the shift manager cut off Layne Flack,
>who then proceeded to complain to the bartender :)
When I worked the floor there I cut off players at least a dozen
times, and followed up on enforcing it. But I never worked top where
you played ;-).
Regards,
Rick
Steve N
"Rick Nebiolo" <rickn...@earthlink.net> wrote in message >
> When I worked the floor there I cut off players at least a dozen
> times, and followed up on enforcing it. But I never worked top where
> you played ;-). >
Rick, that brings up an interesting point for speculation. Is it likely
that cardrooms are more tolerant of top section and "name" players than they
are of their "bread and butter" customers?
Steve N
Tom Weideman
> I agree with David on this. I definetly beleive that my balckjack play helped
> my poker playing. I do not steam or tilt at either game.
Fine, you've added your voice to the argument. But you didn't help David's
cause much at all. If it were true that you were a frequent steamer BEFORE
you started playing blackjack, and that after much blackjack play you were
always a paragon of self-control, then that would be saying something. The
fact that you didn't make this very specific and pertinent point indicates
that it probably is not the case (why would you miss such an opportunity?),
and therefore makes it more likely that you never had much of a tilt problem
to begin with.
I'm not saying blackjack won't help - it will. So will the study of
mathematics, getting severely punished for poor behavior, going on an
incredibly cold streak for a prolonged period of time, and transcendental
meditation. But as with anything else, different people have different
propensities and aptitudes. "Therapies" like those above can only go so far
(and they do more for some people than for others). Anecdotal evidence
about successful blackjack players learning to be more resistant to tilt
doesn't sway me much when the ability to stay cool is actually integral to
winning blackjack play. Bayes' Theorem and all that.
Tom Weideman
NChrisH
Date: Thu, Aug 15, 2002 12:51 AM
Message-id: <B980AB84.184D8%zwi...@attbi.com>
NChrisH wrote:
Tom Weideman >>
Tom,
I guess that my implication that I had changed was not sufficient.
Let me say that when I was much younger that I was indeed a hot head. I
frequently swore at people and was known for throwing things at employees that
were not working hard enough. I would drink to excess when I gambled, and when
I lost I would not be exactly friendly to the dealers or other players.
Now there are many factors that I'm sure contributed to my change of attitude.
Heck, just getting older mellowed me out some. Cutting back on the booze and
other consumed stimulants/depressants was a very positive step also. Many
changes in my financial situation (both good and bad) had some effect as well.
And perhaps it was sheer coincidence that I changed during the period in
question.
The main reason I agree with David was the person who taught me how to play
blackjack as a professional endeavor would not have accepted and taught me if I
remained as I was. Under their tutelage I stopped sweating the short term
results and concentrated on the job at hand and looked to the long term
instead. As you say, control and concentration are critical, and lack thereof
makes you useless to the team.
And I also agree with you that ancedotal evidence doesn't carry much weight. I
can only speak for my own personal experience.
Chris H.
Bjgkaraoke
>times, and followed up on enforcing it. But I never worked top where
>you played ;-).
Rick, unfortunately, not all floormen do this, especially in the top section.
Maybe it's because the players there tip the floormen more frequently?
Anyway, it's a problem that's not addressed enough.
Barbara Gallamore
Tom Weideman
> I guess that my implication that I had changed was not sufficient.
Actually, I wrote that part not so much because I didn't believe you (I
figured you would follow up as you have), but because I wanted to point out:
1. What you should consider to be the important part of your support, and
2. An example of reasoning based on what people DON'T do that can be used
(for example) for reading hands in poker. Trying to shake that "math guy"
image a bit, you know.
> Let me say that when I was much younger that I was indeed a hot head. I
> frequently swore at people and was known for throwing things at employees that
> were not working hard enough. I would drink to excess when I gambled, and when
> I lost I would not be exactly friendly to the dealers or other players.
Okay.
> Now there are many factors that I'm sure contributed to my change of attitude.
> Heck, just getting older mellowed me out some. Cutting back on the booze and
> other consumed stimulants/depressants was a very positive step also. Many
> changes in my financial situation (both good and bad) had some effect as well.
> And perhaps it was sheer coincidence that I changed during the period in
> question.
I'm willing to stipulate it was more than coincidence. And I'm impressed
you brought up these factors - it bolsters your credibility in my eyes a
great deal.
> The main reason I agree with David was the person who taught me how to play
> blackjack as a professional endeavor would not have accepted and taught me if
> I remained as I was. Under their tutelage I stopped sweating the short term
> results and concentrated on the job at hand and looked to the long term
> instead. As you say, control and concentration are critical, and lack thereof
> makes you useless to the team.
Okay, it looks like we actually agree more than you think (and maybe David
and I agree as well, though that isn't as clear). I have no doubt that you
were forced to improve your hot-headedness in order to play BJ for your
team, and that this involved at least in part thinking in terms of the long
haul. But my point was that you didn't learn this through the act of
playing blackjack per se. You learned the lessons in the context of
blackjack and carried them with you to poker, but there is no a priori
reason to believe that you couldn't have learned them in poker or in another
gambling pursuit (like the stock market). I would guess that although you
started off as a tiltbox, you have some other aptitudes that help you, the
most likely being a strong sense of goal-orientation. As soon as someone
was able to make clear that you could not continue down your path and stay
with the team, you made a connection. Not everyone has this ability, just
as not every woman can quit smoking just because they got pregnant - some
are able to focus on the big picture and change their ways accordingly, and
some cannot. Those that are capable of this make it through and go on to
tell everyone what they learned and this makes it seem universal, since we
do not hear from the failures.
> And I also agree with you that ancedotal evidence doesn't carry much weight. I
> can only speak for my own personal experience.
Thank you for doing so. I actually did not intend to emphasize the
"anecdotal" part so much as the conditional probability part. That is,
saying that professional BJ play improves temperment is similar to saying
that hitting homeruns helps baseball players grow more muscular.
Tom Weideman
Rick Nebiolo
You wrote:
>Rick, that brings up an interesting point for speculation. Is it likely
>that cardrooms are more tolerant of top section and "name" players than they
>are of their "bread and butter" customers?
Regarding policing improper behavior, I went about as far as I could
go. But I worked a lower limit section and didn't have much
interference from management so I was able to run the section I worked
in to a higher standard.
IMO, it is in the long term interest of card rooms to crack down on
all sorts of recurring bad behavior. Unfortunately, most card room
management thinks short term, and believe that barring a continually
abusive or problematic player hurts their bottom line. And it will,
for that night and shortly after if the barred player is a regular.
Of course, these short term losses are noticed.
It is my contention that, over time, you will gain back many more
customers running a clean, civilized cardroom. But since it takes a
long time for the word to get out that your card room is nicer in this
regard, the customers you gain are hard to account for. In other
words, management is unlikely to recognize that the increase in
business is correlated to a policy of not tolerating abuse. This is
one reason why the bias runs towards letting the "_sshol_s" have their
way.
Regards,
Rick
>
>Steve N
>
>
>