Elder Gets Crushed

[BillB]

Rigged (obviously)!

[Tim Norfolk]

On Tuesday, September 14, 2021 at 5:13:39 PM UTC-4, BillB wrote:
> Rigged (obviously)!

He claimed so yesterday, based on analysis of the votes that hadn't yet been cast.

[BillB]

The right-wingers seem to be getting nuttier by the day. Who would have thought that was even possible?

[Tim Norfolk]

And as they do so, more believers become even more sure of their conclusions. At what point do they either snap, or come back to reality?

[BillB]

My money is on snapping. For right-wingers, reality is something from an inaccessible distant galaxy.

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 14, 2021, Tim Norfolk wrote
(in article<c7ac33d4-e41e-45cb...@googlegroups.com>):

Do liberals believe any truly stupid, absurd shit?

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 14, 2021, BillB wrote
(in article<02daed4e-8435-443c...@googlegroups.com>):

Yep, like 70 shootings in a single night are because of... slavery. That’s
all we gotta fix - that stupid slavery thing. That’s reality.

[Tim Norfolk]

The majority, probably not. Certainly nothing like the current mass insanity in the GOP.

[Tim Norfolk]

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 1:08:09 AM UTC-4, Bill Vanek wrote:

Now, on the other hand, some of the lefties that I met at University were of the idiot 'the revolution is coming' type. We used to have a lot of fun debating them.

[VegasJerry]

I, too, have done that, having been a resident and having gone to school in Berkeley, California.
The real problem was with those that wouldn't debate because they couldn't debate. Just like
Bill Vanek himself. They can only run...

[Dutch]

The flaky "trigger warning" wing is not in control of the Democratic
Party. The insane conspiracy theorists are in full command of the GOP. A
majority of them still think Trump won ffs. Shit, QAnon is represented
in Congress.

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 15, 2021, Tim Norfolk wrote
(in article<eb71c109-250e-4320...@googlegroups.com>):

You see none of that in the Dems? None at all? You are lost.

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 15, 2021, Dutch wrote
(in article <shu4l9$jld$1...@dont-email.me>):

So no Dems believe that Trump lost in 2016? None thought Trump was a fucking
Russian agent? None of them spent the entire 4 years in a coup attempt? Yeah,
all perfectly sane folks over there. Like all liberals, you are mentally ill.

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 15, 2021, Tim Norfolk wrote
(in article<db80a15d-90b0-4960...@googlegroups.com>):

I think you should be able to find a lot more examples than that, as long as
you are still somewhat sane.

[VegasJerry]

Is this YOU admitting to "mass insanity in the GOP?"

"Oh yea! Oh yea! well so are they, I think!"


> None at all?

Then show us. Show us how it equals YOUR mass insanity.

> You are lost.


We aren't the ones running from those qquestions you are - and you lost...

[Dutch]

I didn't say "no Dems" believe crazy shit, I said that the crazies don't
control the party like the crazies control The GOP. Pay attention
fuckstick, Democrats believe that Russian hackers and bots helped Trump
in 2016 and The Trump campaign knew it was going on and encouraged it.
This is all established fact via FBI and bipartisan Senate
investigations. But the Dems conceded that Trump won anyway.

In 2020 the election was secured, and now *the majority* of Republicans
refuse to accept that Trump lost. The difference between the two
scenarios could not be starker.

And you're not "travel", you know all this, yet you push this bullshit
both-sidism anyway, that's what makes you a total fucking asshole.

[Tim Norfolk]

And once again you show a serious inability to parse English.

[Dutch]

What's a little strawman between friends?

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 16, 2021, Tim Norfolk wrote
(in article<5dc34456-f819-4631...@googlegroups.com>):

One of us is showing it, and you are also showing an inability to grasp
everyday conversation. You see no signs of “mass insanity” on the left?
It’s all on the right? That is what you said, if you can follow a
conversation.

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 16, 2021, Dutch wrote
(in article <si0b0u$d6j$1...@dont-email.me>):

Please name the crazies that control the GOP. And then tell me there are no
equivalents on the Dem side.

> Pay attention
> fuckstick, Democrats believe that Russian hackers and bots helped Trump
> in 2016 and The Trump campaign knew it was going on and encouraged it.
> This is all established fact via FBI and bipartisan Senate
> investigations.

That seems to be a bit of a rewriting of history, eh? From Russian agent to,
“just a little unsolicited help here and there from the Russians”. Okay
then.

> But the Dems conceded that Trump won anyway.

Yes, by spending the next four years trying to overturn the election. Nice
concession.

> In 2020 the election was secured, and now *the majority* of Republicans
> refuse to accept that Trump lost. The difference between the two
> scenarios could not be starker.
>
> And you're not "travel", you know all this, yet you push this bullshit
> both-sidism anyway, that's what makes you a total fucking asshole.

Yes, to you retards on the left, and open mind would make someone an asshole.
We just don’t obey.

[VegasJerry]

KNEW YOU COULDN'T SHOW!
Knew you'd run..

You lose again...

[VegasJerry]

No, because YOU CAN'T SHOW IT.

[VegasJerry]

Heh, and you don't answer either.
Run, you chicken shit coward...

[Tim Norfolk]

Yes. Something like 60% of GOP voters insisted that Obama was a Muslim born in Kenya. A similar number totally believe that the 2020 election was stolen by the Democrats. Now, about the same percentage are trying to die from a preventable disease. On the other hand, you would be hard put to find 10 Democrats who agreed on 5 things.

[BillB]

Don't forget Michelle Obama is really a man, and Hillary Clinton runs a pedophile ring out of a pizza parlor in New Jersey. Those are pretty significant percentages too.

[BillB]

Headline from Forbes: "Majority Of Republicans Believe The QAnon Conspiracy Theory Is Partly Or Mostly True, Survey"

They should change the name from Republican Party to Idiot Party. lol

[BillB]

By the way, it's that almost unfathomable level of endemic stupidity that makes the average Republican voter a prime target for Republican elites who are always looking for new ways to con the peons into voting against their own interests.

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 17, 2021, Tim Norfolk wrote
(in article<d3de9f11-bffa-48f2...@googlegroups.com>):

So what? It is simply not provable either way because of record keeping in
Kenya. Actual conservatives dropped this long ago because it doesn’t
matter. Once he was in office, no one was going to remove him over this.
It’s like domestic only realpolitik.

> A similar number totally believe that the 2020 election was stolen
> by the Democrats.

What about Dems who believe Trump stole the 2016 election? You are just
another insulated academic who has little awareness of the real world. The
mainstream press - your press - does things differently with left vs right.
They are treated differently. The left is always determined to prove that the
right is dumb, and that’s all you’re going to see when you passively take
in the mainstream news. Just look it up for yourself, but use duckduckgo to
get more honest results. “Stupid things Democrats believe.” You’ll find
plenty. Like all whites, and only whites are racist, and men can get pregnant
and, of course, menstruate, according to AOC. And right up your alley, that
they have good ideas on running school systems, in spite of atrocious results
for decades.

> Now, about the same percentage are trying to die from a
> preventable disease. On the other hand, you would be hard put to find 10
> Democrats who agreed on 5 things.

But you think it’s different with Republicans? Why?

[VegasJerry]

.

> What about.....

Congratulations gang, we've got Vanishing Vanek in whataboutism.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/whataboutism-origin-meaning

Heh....

[Tim Norfolk]

Because the GOP has been purging impurities 'RINOS' for a decade or more, and has a robust propaganda arm. The Democrats are more like a loose coalition.

[Dutch]

There is no comparison. 78% of Republicans, including most of the GOP
Congressmen, believe Donald Trump won the 2020 election. THAT is mass
insanity. There is some insanity on the outer fringes of the left, but
nothing remotely like that. Disagreements on policy do not count as
insanity, we're talking flat earth stuff.

[Dutch]

Donald Trump is in complete control of the GOP and there are no equivalents.

>
>> Pay attention
>> fuckstick, Democrats believe that Russian hackers and bots helped Trump
>> in 2016 and The Trump campaign knew it was going on and encouraged it.
>> This is all established fact via FBI and bipartisan Senate
>> investigations.
>
> That seems to be a bit of a rewriting of history, eh? From Russian agent to,
> “just a little unsolicited help here and there from the Russians”. Okay
> then.

"Russian Agent" is a strawman, that was never the claim. The term may
have been bandied about, but nobody ever believed Trump was that smart.
More stuff you already knew.

>
>> But the Dems conceded that Trump won anyway.
>
> Yes, by spending the next four years trying to overturn the election. Nice
> concession.

Nope, they never tried to do that. To some extent hey held Trump
accountable for his misdeeds, which were legion. When will you get it?
Donald Trump is a compulsive cheat and a pathological liar, it is all he
knows. When a president acts like that he gets into hot water. Every
ounce of his grief was of his own making.

>> In 2020 the election was secured, and now *the majority* of Republicans
>> refuse to accept that Trump lost. The difference between the two
>> scenarios could not be starker.
>>
>> And you're not "travel", you know all this, yet you push this bullshit
>> both-sidism anyway, that's what makes you a total fucking asshole.
>
> Yes, to you retards on the left, and open mind would make someone an asshole.
> We just don’t obey.

Knee-jerk rejection of the advice of experts, or of reality itself, does
not mean you have an open mind. I saw a guy interviewed who was refusing
to get the vaccine because Democrats stole the election from Trump. This
is the GOP open mind at work. Mass insanity.

[BillB]

On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 6:25:14 PM UTC-7, Dutch wrote:

> "Russian Agent" is a strawman, that was never the claim. The term may
> have been bandied about, but nobody ever believed Trump was that smart.
> More stuff you already knew.

The common belief was that he might be a Russian *asset* (he clearly was, at least of the useful idiot variety), and it was based on his own bizarre behavior (always being an apologist for Putin) and a number of other very suspicious facts.

[Dutch]

78% of Republicans polled recently say they believe Biden stole the 2020
election!

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 17, 2021, Dutch wrote
(in article <si3h2d$pk7$5...@dont-email.me>):

And 90% or Republicans have nothing but disdain for pollsters. That might
help you understand some things.

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 17, 2021, Dutch wrote

(in article <si3e6o$q39$1...@dont-email.me>):

Can men get pregnant?

[Dutch]

On 2021-09-17 4:27 p.m., Bill Vanek wrote:
> What about Dems who believe Trump stole the 2016 election?

That's not what Democrats have said, but in the light of what has been
happening since the last election can you honestly say it's not a
rational fear?

C'mon man, show a little intellectual honesty. Get with reality, you're
not going to save a single fetus with this approach, and you'll feel
much better.

[Dutch]

So they are lying when they speak to pollsters, they're lying when they
speak to the media, privately they know that Trump lost, but they are
fully behind his attempts get himself reinstated anyway. And the fact
that would signal the end of democracy as we know it doesn't bother
them. Great, a party full of traitors is much better then a bunch of
delusionals.

[Dutch]

Good example. You couldn't fill the average Starbucks with the people
who believe that. It would take hundreds of college football stadiums to
contain the mob that believe the Democrats stole the last election.

[VegasJerry]

It still hasn't been explained why Trump had Manafort giving election data to the Russians.

[VegasJerry]

Cite. Then explain why they give information to them.

(Heh, and once again Vanishing Vanek will vanish....)

> That might
> help you understand some things.

Yea, when you run, rather than answer... AGAIN.
lol

[VegasJerry]

Gee, we forgot to tell him the military (Conservative) made arraignments in case that mental defective tried to start a war.

The "him" can also fit Richard Nixon.

Where the fuck are you, Vanishing Vanek?

(Heh)

[Tim Norfolk]

Because I am making the claim that 60% of Republican voters apparently believe these things. It isn't a majority of Democrats who follow anything that dumb.

Clearly, you fall into the former camp, given that you still try to suggest that Obama was born in Kenya, even given a birth certificate.

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 17, 2021, Dutch wrote
(in article <si3f5k$b1c$1...@dont-email.me>):

You are an idiot.

> > > Pay attention
> > > fuckstick, Democrats believe that Russian hackers and bots helped Trump
> > > in 2016 and The Trump campaign knew it was going on and encouraged it.
> > > This is all established fact via FBI and bipartisan Senate
> > > investigations.
> >
> > That seems to be a bit of a rewriting of history, eh? From Russian agent to,
> > “just a little unsolicited help here and there from the Russians”. Okay
> > then.
>
> "Russian Agent" is a strawman, that was never the claim.

It was *your* claim, along with everyone on MSNBCNBCNN, which is the same
thing. Remember hearing ”bombshell” every other day for months on end? If
you had been following other sources since all that, you would know that it
was all debunked nonsense. It’s in the news again. Look up Sussman.

> The term may
> have been bandied about, but nobody ever believed Trump was that smart.
> More stuff you already knew.
>
> >
> > > But the Dems conceded that Trump won anyway.
> >
> > Yes, by spending the next four years trying to overturn the election. Nice
> > concession.
>
> Nope, they never tried to do that.

Two impeachments? Okay then.

> To some extent hey held Trump
> accountable for his misdeeds, which were legion. When will you get it?
> Donald Trump is a compulsive cheat and a pathological liar, it is all he
> knows. When a president acts like that he gets into hot water. Every
> ounce of his grief was of his own making.
>
> > > In 2020 the election was secured, and now *the majority* of Republicans
> > > refuse to accept that Trump lost. The difference between the two
> > > scenarios could not be starker.
> > >
> > > And you're not "travel", you know all this, yet you push this bullshit
> > > both-sidism anyway, that's what makes you a total fucking asshole.
> >
> > Yes, to you retards on the left, and open mind would make someone an
> > asshole.
> > We just don’t obey.
>
> Knee-jerk rejection of the advice of experts, or of reality itself, does
> not mean you have an open mind.

But rejection of conflicting opinions based on the politics of those who
dispute means you certainly do not.

> I saw a guy interviewed who was refusing
> to get the vaccine because Democrats stole the election from Trump. This
> is the GOP open mind at work. Mass insanity.

It’s a form of insanity to take every absurd statement at face value, just
because that person belongs to a group you hate. Maybe Risky will give you
some of that million he won to buy some discernment.

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 17, 2021, Tim Norfolk wrote

(in article<ad85892a-bdf2-45df...@googlegroups.com>):

Again, it’s just your insular life in academia that lets you say such dumb
shit. Try to get out more.

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 18, 2021, Dutch wrote
(in article <si3s52$crd$1...@dont-email.me>):

> On 2021-09-17 4:27 p.m., Bill Vanek wrote:
> > What about Dems who believe Trump stole the 2016 election?
>
> That's not what Democrats have said,

Am I imagining that? I don’t think so.

> but in the light of what has been
> happening since the last election can you honestly say it's not a
> rational fear?

Yes I can.

> C'mon man, show a little intellectual honesty. Get with reality, you're
> not going to save a single fetus with this approach, and you'll feel
> much better.

Who is trying to save fetuses?

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 18, 2021, Tim Norfolk wrote
(in article<53270ba3-c1dd-4f71...@googlegroups.com>):

Yes, you are making two claims. How nice. I disagree. That should be a sound
thrashing in your book.

> Clearly, you fall into the former camp, given that you still try to suggest
> that Obama was born in Kenya, even given a birth certificate.

What I am trying to suggest is that it is certainly possible he was not, not
that he was not. There is even a video of him in Kenya where he
self-describes as, “the first American president to come from Kenya”.
Followed by a very subtle look of panic.

https://youtu.be/L36sGc4Id2I?t=337

And a birth cert? WOW! I’ll bet those are hard to forge. I’ve already
said that it can never be proven that he was born in Kenya, and I don’t
care if he was. No one was ever going to do anything about it.

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 18, 2021, Dutch wrote
(in article <si3tsu$jrm$2...@dont-email.me>):

Good example of exactly what? Do you even get it? Do you think *anyone*
actually believes that? Do you? This stuff is just over your head.

[Tim Norfolk]

Thank you for confirming that you are indeed one of the crazies.

[BillB]

lol...you just figured that out?

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 18, 2021, Tim Norfolk wrote

(in article<96b01a8a-e13f-47ba...@googlegroups.com>):

And thanks for confirming that you have a closed mind, like all smug
solipsists - meaning all liberals. You think there is zero chance he was born
anywhere other than HI? And you taught probability?

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 18, 2021, Tim Norfolk wrote

(in article<96b01a8a-e13f-47ba...@googlegroups.com>):

And BTW, did you watch the video? I know he’s just a big ol’ dumb
inarticulate nigger to you elitists, and probably just stumbled over some
words.

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 18, 2021, Tim Norfolk wrote

(in article<96b01a8a-e13f-47ba...@googlegroups.com>):

And BTW2, can men get pregnant?

[Dutch]

The "system", the "elites", the "Democrats" stole the election from his
hero, he sees the vaccine as part and parcel of that evil conspiracy.
His act of protest is to refuse the jab. That is the definition of
politicizing a pandemic.

[Dutch]

On 2021-09-18 2:38 p.m., Bill Vanek wrote:
> On Sep 18, 2021, Dutch wrote
> (in article <si3s52$crd$1...@dont-email.me>):
>
>> On 2021-09-17 4:27 p.m., Bill Vanek wrote:
>>> What about Dems who believe Trump stole the 2016 election?
>>
>> That's not what Democrats have said,
>
> Am I imagining that? I don’t think so.

Yes, you are. I mean *some* think that, but most believe that he
welcomed and exploited Russian interference for his benefit. Nobody
knows if that decided the election. I doubt that it did.

>> but in the light of what has been
>> happening since the last election can you honestly say it's not a
>> rational fear?
>
> Yes I can.

So you didn't see him trying to steal the election? It was futile of
course, but that didn't stop him.

>> C'mon man, show a little intellectual honesty. Get with reality, you're
>> not going to save a single fetus with this approach, and you'll feel
>> much better.
>
> Who is trying to save fetuses?

Isn't preventing abortions your deal?

[Dutch]

Over *my* head? You can't even follow the conversation. Tens of millions
of Republicans believe completely ridiculous, crazy shit, Trump won.
Small populations of Democrats believe crazy shit. There's no comparison.

[VegasJerry]

You can disagree with facts because you're embarrassed at being wrong, but that doesn't change those facts.

> That should be a sound thrashing in your book.

It is. Consider yourself thrashed again...

> > Clearly, you fall into the former camp, given that you still try to suggest
> > that Obama was born in Kenya, even given a birth certificate.

> What I am trying to suggest is that it is certainly possible he was not, not
> that he was not.

Again, you 'disagree' with actual facts. And we ALL know why.

> There is even a video of him in Kenya where he
> self-describes as, “the first American president to come from Kenya”.

WHA! HA~Ha! Join BackupBillB in your "Yea, but I saw PROOF because 'I saw a video!'"

> Followed by a very subtle look of panic.

Heh.. same video proof. You two idiot should get a room.

> And a birth cert? WOW! I’ll bet those are hard to forge.

Yea, they are; because there are dups on record.

> I’ve already said that it can never be proven that he was born in Kenya

Because he wasn't.

> No one was ever going to do anything about it.

Yea, they did. They showed the birth certificate. Even your god Trump had to yield.
You can't because you're already a loser...

[VegasJerry]

Confirming crazy AND desperate.

[Tim Norfolk]

It depends on how you define 'man'. You might start with Socrates.

[Splashie]

On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 2:49:28 PM UTC-7, Bill Vanek wrote:
> On Sep 18, 2021, Tim Norfolk wrote

> > Clearly, you fall into the former camp, given that you still try to suggest
> > that Obama was born in Kenya, even given a birth certificate.
> What I am trying to suggest is that it is certainly possible he was not, not
> that he was not. There is even a video of him in Kenya where he
> self-describes as, “the first American president to come from Kenya”.
> Followed by a very subtle look of panic.
>
> https://youtu.be/L36sGc4Id2I?t=337
>
> And a birth cert? WOW! I’ll bet those are hard to forge. I’ve already
> said that it can never be proven that he was born in Kenya, and I don’t
> care if he was. No one was ever going to do anything about it.

Oh, holy fuck, you HAVE to be kidding me.

You don't understand he's talking about his family lineage when he says he comes from Kenya? And forget the birth certificate, what about the newspaper announcement in the Honolulu paper of his birth? You think his parents put that there knowing he was going to run for President 47 years later?

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/18503640/barack-obama-birth-announcement/

Michael

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 19, 2021, Splashie wrote
(in article<c1f85646-e802-48cd...@googlegroups.com>):

> On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 2:49:28 PM UTC-7, Bill Vanek wrote:
> > On Sep 18, 2021, Tim Norfolk wrote
> > > Clearly, you fall into the former camp, given that you still try to suggest
> > > that Obama was born in Kenya, even given a birth certificate.
> > What I am trying to suggest is that it is certainly possible he was not, not
> > that he was not. There is even a video of him in Kenya where he
> > self-describes as, “the first American president to come from Kenya”.
> > Followed by a very subtle look of panic.
> >
> > https://youtu.be/L36sGc4Id2I?t=337
> >
> > And a birth cert? WOW! I’ll bet those are hard to forge. I’ve already
> > said that it can never be proven that he was born in Kenya, and I don’t
> > care if he was. No one was ever going to do anything about it.
>
> Oh, holy fuck, you HAVE to be kidding me.
>
> You don't understand he's talking about his family lineage when he says he
> comes from Kenya?

Of course, dear. That is the *only* thing that could have meant.

> And forget the birth certificate, what about the newspaper
> announcement in the Honolulu paper of his birth? You think his parents put
> that there knowing he was going to run for President 47 years later?

Is the qualification to run for president the only benefit to native US
birth?

> https://www.newspapers.com/clip/18503640/barack-obama-birth-announcement/

My God, you actually think that means he was born here. A true liberal.

[BillB]

You don't understand the vanek mentality. Obama is black.

[Tim Norfolk]

Given that his mother was a US citizen, that is the only job for which he would not be qualified if born elsewhere.

In answer to your other post, on one hand, we have both a birth announcement and a birth certificate.

On the other, we have a rumour, promulgated by a con man who was successfully sued for fraud several times, who claimed that he had evidence that Obama was not born in Hawaii. And then neglected to present any.

It's called actual evidence. Without it, you cannot properly construct a sample space.

[BillB]

Evidence shmevidece. He is black.

[Dutch]

That's exactly what it means. It's called e-v-i-d-e-n-c-e. And you
discount it because "you have doubts" (based on nothing). A true
Republican.

This is exactly the kind of dishonesty (it's not reasoning) being used
to cast doubt on the the most secure, most thoroughly verified
presidential election in US history.

[BillB]

But where is the PROOF Obama wasn't born on the Moon?? I mean, it is theoretically possible, isn't it?

[Splashie]

On Sunday, September 19, 2021 at 2:15:43 PM UTC-7, Bill Vanek wrote:
> On Sep 19, 2021, Splashie wrote
> (in article<c1f85646-e802-48cd...@googlegroups.com>):
> > On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 2:49:28 PM UTC-7, Bill Vanek wrote:
> > > On Sep 18, 2021, Tim Norfolk wrote
> > > > Clearly, you fall into the former camp, given that you still try to suggest
> > > > that Obama was born in Kenya, even given a birth certificate.
> > > What I am trying to suggest is that it is certainly possible he was not, not
> > > that he was not. There is even a video of him in Kenya where he
> > > self-describes as, “the first American president to come from Kenya”.
> > > Followed by a very subtle look of panic.
> > >
> > > https://youtu.be/L36sGc4Id2I?t=337
> > >
> > > And a birth cert? WOW! I’ll bet those are hard to forge. I’ve already
> > > said that it can never be proven that he was born in Kenya, and I don’t
> > > care if he was. No one was ever going to do anything about it.
> >
> > Oh, holy fuck, you HAVE to be kidding me.
> >
> > You don't understand he's talking about his family lineage when he says he
> > comes from Kenya?
> Of course, dear. That is the *only* thing that could have meant.

If you rewind the video to about 1:05 he says "I'd like to describe for you the first time I came here. I was 27 years old."

> > And forget the birth certificate, what about the newspaper
> > announcement in the Honolulu paper of his birth? You think his parents put
> > that there knowing he was going to run for President 47 years later?
> Is the qualification to run for president the only benefit to native US
> birth?
>
> > https://www.newspapers.com/clip/18503640/barack-obama-birth-announcement/
>
> My God, you actually think that means he was born here. A true liberal.

Yeah, I think a birth announcement in a Hawai'i newspaper mentioning the birth of a son to two people living in Hawai'i generally means that person was born in Hawai'i. Especially since that same person has a Hawaiian birth certificate.

Michael

[BillB]

But he's black. Something fishy must be going on.

[VegasJerry]

No, the birth certificate that even Trump accepted means that.
It's means YOU ARE STILL DODGING AND WON'T ADMIT YOU LOST!

Run away AGAIN; LOSER!

[VegasJerry]

It's appears he's embarrassed enough to have Run & Hide again.
And soon to pop up in another thread with the very same lying bullshit.
Like Pepé Le Pew, they simply cannot admit they were wrong,
and are a fucking waste of time...

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 18, 2021, Dutch wrote

(in article <si681c$dm2$1...@dont-email.me>):

> On 2021-09-18 2:38 p.m., Bill Vanek wrote:
> > On Sep 18, 2021, Dutch wrote
> > (in article <si3s52$crd$1...@dont-email.me>):
> >
> > > On 2021-09-17 4:27 p.m., Bill Vanek wrote:
> > > > What about Dems who believe Trump stole the 2016 election?
> > >
> > > That's not what Democrats have said,
> >
> > Am I imagining that? I don’t think so.
>
> Yes, you are. I mean *some* think that, but most believe that he
> welcomed and exploited Russian interference for his benefit.

It seems to me that you take outlier opinions from the right, and assign that
to everyone to the right of Bernie Sanders. Why not with liberals? No bias,
eh?

> Nobody
> knows if that decided the election. I doubt that it did.
>
> > > but in the light of what has been
> > > happening since the last election can you honestly say it's not a
> > > rational fear?
> >
> > Yes I can.
>
> So you didn't see him trying to steal the election? It was futile of
> course, but that didn't stop him.
>
> > > C'mon man, show a little intellectual honesty. Get with reality, you're
> > > not going to save a single fetus with this approach, and you'll feel
> > > much better.
> >
> > Who is trying to save fetuses?
>
> Isn't preventing abortions your deal?

No.

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 19, 2021, Tim Norfolk wrote
(in article<a03eb949-113e-49bf...@googlegroups.com>):

There is no need for Socrates. You are correct about defining “man”,
though. But you are still missing the point. The left is stating that if a
woman identifies as a man, that person *is* a man. And anyone on the left who
disputes that is pummeled. That is why we had adult appearing presidential
candidates groveling over the issue. “Of course men have a right to
abortion.” The left is fucking insane. You can argue all you want about
fringe beliefs on the right, but why the fucking silence about those on the
left?

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 20, 2021, Splashie wrote
(in article<0ce0f147-cacd-4c36...@googlegroups.com>):

> On Sunday, September 19, 2021 at 2:15:43 PM UTC-7, Bill Vanek wrote:
> > On Sep 19, 2021, Splashie wrote
> > (in article<c1f85646-e802-48cd...@googlegroups.com>):
> > > On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 2:49:28 PM UTC-7, Bill Vanek wrote:
> > > > On Sep 18, 2021, Tim Norfolk wrote
> > > > > Clearly, you fall into the former camp, given that you still try to
> > > > > suggest
> > > > > that Obama was born in Kenya, even given a birth certificate.
> > > > What I am trying to suggest is that it is certainly possible he was not,
> > > > not
> > > > that he was not. There is even a video of him in Kenya where he
> > > > self-describes as, “the first American president to come from Kenya”.
> > > > Followed by a very subtle look of panic.
> > > >
> > > > https://youtu.be/L36sGc4Id2I?t=337
> > > >
> > > > And a birth cert? WOW! I’ll bet those are hard to forge. I’ve already
> > > > said that it can never be proven that he was born in Kenya, and I don’t
> > > > care if he was. No one was ever going to do anything about it.
> > >
> > > Oh, holy fuck, you HAVE to be kidding me.
> > >
> > > You don't understand he's talking about his family lineage when he says he
> > > comes from Kenya?
> > Of course, dear. That is the *only* thing that could have meant.
>
> If you rewind the video to about 1:05 he says "I'd like to describe for you
> the first time I came here. I was 27 years old."

Right. And of course the only possible meaning is the one you want it to be.
You can’t think of any other reason for that wording at all, just like you
twist “from Kenya” to mean exactly what fits your final opinion. The
problem with the liberal brain is that it cannot access the “self-doubt”
area for some reason. It’s off limits.

> > > And forget the birth certificate, what about the newspaper
> > > announcement in the Honolulu paper of his birth? You think his parents put
> > > that there knowing he was going to run for President 47 years later?
> > Is the qualification to run for president the only benefit to native US
> > birth?
> >
> > > https://www.newspapers.com/clip/18503640/barack-obama-birth-announcement/
> >
> > My God, you actually think that means he was born here. A true liberal.
>
> Yeah, I think a birth announcement in a Hawai'i newspaper mentioning the
> birth of a son to two people living in Hawai'i generally means that person
> was born in Hawai'i. Especially since that same person has a Hawaiian birth
> certificate.

My thinking is pretty common among adult conservatives. I’ll sum it up, and
you can tell me what you disagree with. The plausible alternate explanation
is that he was born in Kenya, and then flown here the next day. You can bring
a baby into the hospital and get a certificate - at least back then you
could, and I understand that it was common. And why would they not have an
announcement placed in the paper? That is common everywhere. The reasons
adult conservatives shrug it off is that, as I’ve already said, nothing was
ever going to be done. No one is going to overturn an election based on a
claim without ironclad proof. The other issue is, WTF difference does it
make? How does it change a person to be born in Kenya adn brought here
immediately, as opposed to being born here. It’s a fucking technicality, a
“gotcha”, and nothing more. So you just drop it, that’s all. What part
of any of that do you disagree with?

[Dutch]

On 2021-09-20 12:21 p.m., Bill Vanek wrote:
> On Sep 18, 2021, Dutch wrote
> (in article <si681c$dm2$1...@dont-email.me>):
>
>> On 2021-09-18 2:38 p.m., Bill Vanek wrote:
>>> On Sep 18, 2021, Dutch wrote
>>> (in article <si3s52$crd$1...@dont-email.me>):
>>>
>>>> On 2021-09-17 4:27 p.m., Bill Vanek wrote:
>>>>> What about Dems who believe Trump stole the 2016 election?
>>>>
>>>> That's not what Democrats have said,
>>>
>>> Am I imagining that? I don’t think so.
>>
>> Yes, you are. I mean *some* think that, but most believe that he
>> welcomed and exploited Russian interference for his benefit.
>
> It seems to me that you take outlier opinions from the right, and assign that
> to everyone to the right of Bernie Sanders. Why not with liberals? No bias,
> eh?

What outlier positions are you referring to? 8 of 10 Republicans say
they believe that Democrats stole the presidency in 2020. Whether they
are crazy or they are liars, I have to take them at their word.

>> Nobody
>> knows if that decided the election. I doubt that it did.
>>
>>>> but in the light of what has been
>>>> happening since the last election can you honestly say it's not a
>>>> rational fear?
>>>
>>> Yes I can.
>>
>> So you didn't see him trying to steal the election? It was futile of
>> course, but that didn't stop him.
>>
>>>> C'mon man, show a little intellectual honesty. Get with reality, you're
>>>> not going to save a single fetus with this approach, and you'll feel
>>>> much better.
>>>
>>> Who is trying to save fetuses?
>>
>> Isn't preventing abortions your deal?
>
> No.

That is surprising. I thought, naively perhaps, that your opposition to
"choice" was based on some deeply held moral belief.

[Dutch]

The belief that everyone must refer to people with the gender they
*identify as*, not according to the plumbing they were born with, might
be cringeworthy or annoying but it's not dangerous to anyone's health,
and it doesn't undermine democracy.

[Dutch]

That explanation ignores the racist undercurrent driving the birther
movement. If Barack Obama was named Brian Olson, if he was white and his
father was born in England this would never have been an issue.

[BillB]

He obviously doesn't understand the meaning of the word "plausible." But his thinking IS pretty common among adult conservatives: them blacks are shifty!

[Splashie]

The part where you think it's at all logical that Obama's mother would have traveled to Kenya to give birth and then immediately returned with baby Barack to Hawai'i. There's no evidence she ever even visited Kenya - Obama's father had left in 1959 and didn't return until 1964, by which time Obama's mother had already filed for divorce which he didn't contest.

Michael

[Splashie]

Thank you for illustrating how dumb "adult conservatives" are though. On one side, you have piles of evidence that say Obama was born in Hawai'i, on the other side you have nothing but a "plausible alternate explanation" with absolutely no evidence backing it, and yet you choose to believe the latter because...reasons? And you claim it doesn't make a difference at all, yet you're still clinging to it years later.

Michael

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 20, 2021, Splashie wrote

(in article<5552f33e-d410-48d2...@googlegroups.com>):

Wherever did I say she "traveled to Kenya to give birth”? The implication
is that she was in Kenya for whatever reason and whatever length of time, and
then gave birth, and then raced back to the US. Like all good liberals, you
are seeing words I never wrote, and never implied.

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 20, 2021, Splashie wrote

(in article<b85927c4-f591-40e9...@googlegroups.com>):

> On Monday, September 20, 2021 at 1:44:03 PM UTC-7, Splashie wrote: z

Again, you see words I never wrote or implied. I did not say, in any fucking
way, that I *believe* he was born in Kenya. I am trying to lecture your
failing liberal brain that an open mind does not dismiss possibilities for
the sole reason that they don’t fit its politics. You ridicule me for
clinging to a belief that I never said I hold. Fucking brain damage. Fucking
mental illness. That’s all that can account for your habit of replying to
what thoughts you want to assign to me, instead of what I said. Reality truly
sucks for you, doesn’t it? What would you argue with if you lived in that
world? And evidence that is a piece of paper called some sort of birth cert
and a newspaper mention requested by the mother is not much better than a
grandmother’s claim that he was born in Kenya. And the people who were
determined to push the claims came up with plenty of other evidence, but of
course it was all dismissed by the left, for the simple reason that it was
produced by the right.

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 19, 2021, Tim Norfolk wrote

(in article<c2419b65-6b31-48f3...@googlegroups.com>):

I’ll bet you know that there was no internet back then, and knowledge
wasn’t so easy to come by. About what percent of the population would you
suppose knew all the ins and outs of citizenship back then? The average
person who wanted to ensure that her newborn was a completely legal US
citizen might decide to not take any chances. Wouldn’t you agree? And do
you think it’s much different now? How many people know all the rules
concerning citizenship?

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 19, 2021, Dutch wrote
(in article <si8s88$bvu$1...@dont-email.me>):

Idiot. Do you know how birth notices got into papers back then and probably
still today? Someone walks into the office, or calls, and asks them to do it.
Or do you think software took care of all that back then? How the fuck would
they know where the kid was born? And why would they care?

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 20, 2021, Dutch wrote
(in article <siaoop$99n$1...@dont-email.me>):

Oh *silly* me! There’s always that universal racism thing to explain when
nothing else will work.

> driving the birther
> movement. If Barack Obama was named Brian Olson, if he was white and his
> father was born in England this would never have been an issue.

How about McCain? Was he black?

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 20, 2021, Dutch wrote

(in article <siao91$v9f$1...@dont-email.me>):

It undermines any culture built around reality and logic.

[Splashie]

Right, you didn't say it, but your impassioned defense of the claim implies it pretty fucking strongly. An open mind is one that is willing to change with evidence, not one that dismisses actual evidence as forgeries while saying a YouTube video is just as good. An open mind is not one that tortures itself coming up with alternative explanations for how something with no evidence in support of it could "possibly" be true.

> You ridicule me for
> clinging to a belief that I never said I hold. Fucking brain damage. Fucking
> mental illness. That’s all that can account for your habit of replying to
> what thoughts you want to assign to me, instead of what I said. Reality truly
> sucks for you, doesn’t it? What would you argue with if you lived in that
> world? And evidence that is a piece of paper called some sort of birth cert
> and a newspaper mention requested by the mother is not much better than a

> ***grandmother’s claim that he was born in Kenya***. And the people who were

> determined to push the claims came up with plenty of other evidence, but of
> course it was all dismissed by the left, for the simple reason that it was
> produced by the right.

God, you are the biggest fucking moron on the planet.

https://www.factcheck.org/2011/04/donald-youre-fired/

Berg Transcript
Ron McRae: Amen. I am so thankful. Could I ask her, uh, about his, uh, his actual birthplace? I would like to see hi[s] actual birthplace when I, when I come to Kenya in December. Uh, was she present when he was, was she present when he was born in Kenya?.…

Translator: Yes. She says, “Yes she was! She was present when Obama was born.”

McRae: Okay.

The Berg transcript ends here. But when the full recording later came to light it showed that this is what followed immediately:

What Berg Left Out
McRae: Okay, uh, when I come in December I would like to go by the, the place, the hospital where he is born. Uh, could you tell me where he was born? Was he born in Mombasa? (Long pause) . . .

Translator: No, no — what? . . . No! Obama was not born in Mombasa. He was born in America.

McRae: Wh-whereabouts, whereabouts was he born? I, I thought he was born in Kenya.

Translator: No he was born in America, not in Mombasa.

McRae: OK. Do you know whereabouts he was born?

Translator: Huh?

McRae: Do you know where he was born? I thought he was born in Kenya. I was gonna go by and see where he was born. . . .

Translator: Sir, she says he was born in Hawaii.

McRae: OK.

Translator: Yeah, in 1960 this was Hawaii, where his father, his father was also marrying there. This was Hawaii.

McRae: OK. . . . I thought you said she was present. Was she, was, was she, was she able to see him being, being born in, in Hawaii? . . .

Translator: No, no! The, the woman was not present. She was uh not, a what — you see, she was here in Kenya, and Obama was born in America. That is, that’s obvious.

*********

We dismiss this so called "evidence" not because it is produced by the right, but because they lie all the time like by editing the transcript.

Michael

[BillB]

On Monday, September 20, 2021 at 2:36:01 PM UTC-7, Splashie wrote:

> Right, you didn't say it, but your impassioned defense of the claim implies it pretty fucking strongly. An open mind is one that is willing to change with evidence, not one that dismisses actual evidence as forgeries while saying a YouTube video is just as good. An open mind is not one that tortures itself coming up with alternative explanations for how something with no evidence in support of it could "possibly" be true.

In other words, "keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out." A favorite saying among professional skeptics.

[Dutch]

According to that reasoning very few people can prove where they were
born. A flimsy piece of paper is all I have. The whole thing was
"Trumped" up by a racist to muddy the waters and create fear and doubt
in a racist group of voters.

[Dutch]

It's evidence, not proof.

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 20, 2021, Dutch wrote
(in article <sib0tl$5kf$1...@dont-email.me>):

I think you might have had an epiphany right there. In other words, no shit.
And it all depends on what you mean by “prove”. If you mean what someone
demanding proof for some purpose will accept as proof, then most everyone can
“prove” it. But beyond that, there are degrees of “proof”. And that
is what the heart of what I have been saying here. Many people will base
their strictness of proof on their ideology, and the ideology involved in the
subject being discussed. Don’t complain that the right won’t accept proof
around politicized subjects when you expect everything on your side to be
accepted as THE TRUTH. Everything about his birth can be reasonably disputed,
as can every claim made by the right. BTW, do you *know* where you were born?
Does Obama *know* where he was born? I’m pretty sure the only person who
always knows is the person who delivered the kid.

[VegasJerry]

No, it is NOT and you'll explain why:

> I’ll sum it up, and you can tell me what you disagree with. The plausible alternate
> explanation is that he was born in Kenya, and then flown here the next day.

See? Not only is it not plausible, it proves my point that you can't answer my post
because you are, in fact, embarrassed at having been proved wrong, and, as I
pointed out, can only run and hide.

Learn to lose asshole, you're getting good at it....


> bring a baby into the hospital...

LOL!

[Splashie]

Or the mother, who kinda has to be there as well. And this subject is only "politicized" by people on the right who have a vested interest in claiming that he was born in Kenya because it would have made him constitutionally ineligible to be President of the US. You claim his birth country can be "reasonably disputed", but on what basis are you making that claim? What is reasonable about claiming he might have been born in Kenya despite no evidence showing his mother ever was there at any time in her life, let alone while she was pregnant?

Michael

[VegasJerry]

> is that she was in Kenya...

What 'implication?'

Heh... See how easy it is to shut this cowardly motherfucker down and run him off?

> for whatever reason ...

See?

> Like all good liberals, you are seeing words I never wrote, and never implied.

Because you're off and running....

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 20, 2021, Splashie wrote

(in article<ffc4daac-9f99-4ad6...@googlegroups.com>):

I actually meant the mother, and no one else.

> And this subject is only
> "politicized" by people on the right who have a vested interest in claiming
> that he was born in Kenya because it would have made him constitutionally
> ineligible to be President of the US. You claim his birth country can be
> "reasonably disputed", but on what basis are you making that claim? What is
> reasonable about claiming he might have been born in Kenya despite no
> evidence showing his mother ever was there at any time in her life, let alone
> while she was pregnant?

There’s no evidence she was ever there? I personally wouldn’t know, and I
don’t know why you would know. It’s just not worth digging into. My
*only* beef is the closed minds of the left around anything of this sort. You
can always come up with evidence to support your side, and the left pulls out
all the stops when one of their saints is threatened. Again, my quibble
isn’t over where he was actually born, it’s with the circling of the
wagons, and the refusal of the left to consider that maybe some people
aren’t telling the whole truth with their “evidence, and that a whole lot
of people have an agenda. You can believe what you want, and so can I, and I
don’t believe anything either way on where he was born. I think that’s a
good approach when there are no consequences to me. I’m not making a life
or death decision, you know.

[Splashie]

Usually the person who is described as having "delivered the kid" is the attending obstetrician, midwife, or other person who assists in the birth. I'd guess births with ONLY the mother present are a vanishingly tiny percentage.

> > And this subject is only
> > "politicized" by people on the right who have a vested interest in claiming
> > that he was born in Kenya because it would have made him constitutionally
> > ineligible to be President of the US. You claim his birth country can be
> > "reasonably disputed", but on what basis are you making that claim? What is
> > reasonable about claiming he might have been born in Kenya despite no
> > evidence showing his mother ever was there at any time in her life, let alone
> > while she was pregnant?
> There’s no evidence she was ever there? I personally wouldn’t know, and I
> don’t know why you would know. It’s just not worth digging into. My
> *only* beef is the closed minds of the left around anything of this sort. You
> can always come up with evidence to support your side, and the left pulls out
> all the stops when one of their saints is threatened. Again, my quibble
> isn’t over where he was actually born, it’s with the circling of the
> wagons, and the refusal of the left to consider that maybe some people
> aren’t telling the whole truth with their “evidence, and that a whole lot
> of people have an agenda. You can believe what you want, and so can I, and I
> don’t believe anything either way on where he was born. I think that’s a
> good approach when there are no consequences to me. I’m not making a life
> or death decision, you know.

Let me ask you a couple of questions, not about what you believe, but to try to discern exactly how open minded you are:
1) Do you think it is reasonable to dispute that Donald Trump won the 2016 Presidential Election?
2) Do you think it is reasonable to dispute that Joe Biden won the 2020 Presidential Election?

If your answers to these two questions are different, please explain why.

Michael

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 20, 2021, Splashie wrote

(in article<60b477fe-4641-4f95...@googlegroups.com>):

Either yes to both, or no to both. It all depends on what you believe is
reasonable, what you mean by dispute, and what you mean by won - especially
that. As long as you use the same definition for both, you have to have the
same yes or no answer for both. In general, with common understanding of the
usage of the terms, I lean towards yes for both. But since Trump spent 4
years in the WH, and Biden is there now, they obviously both won. It’s hard
to dispute either when that’s all you’re asking.

[Dutch]

Donald Trump has a history of racist behavior.

>
>> driving the birther
>> movement. If Barack Obama was named Brian Olson, if he was white and his
>> father was born in England this would never have been an issue.
>
> How about McCain? Was he black?

The argument was raised that McCain wasn't born on US soil. There was no
evidence of that with Obama.

[Dutch]

That rules out most Republicans who deny reality in a host of ways, most
recently the reality that Trump lost.

It is only recently that it has become widely apparent that birth-sex
and gender identity are not always in alignment. This may unnerve some
traditionalists but it is reality and it is logical. It's nothing more
than a genetic variation.

[Dutch]

The thing is, there was a reasonable Constitutional objection regarding
John McCain's actual place of birth. There was no such thing with Obama.
It was all Trumped up based mainly on his foreign sounding name and his
race.

[Bill Vanek]

On Sep 20, 2021, Dutch wrote

(in article <sibfgk$984$1...@dont-email.me>):

You have no hesitation to spout off on something you are unfamiliar with.
That argument was not made, and there was no dispute about where he was born.