taking a stand on the tipping
john stolzmann
self-reflection and reflection on the advice of others, i have come to
believe that my tip was not a "crummy gratuity" at all; rather it is
one that should be appreciated (and probably also be left confidential,
which is a different issue entirely).
after having received numerous emails regarding this issue (two coming
from top-level tournament professionals), i am convinced that the 3%
tip allotted to the staff is sufficient, and anything more is generous.
i AM new to the tournament scene. upon getting paid, i was told
that i had the option of leaving an additional tip. i asked the
tournament director (who did an excellent job throughout, btw) if 3%
had already been taken out, to which he replied that it had been.
i don't want to quote exacly, but i think he said something to the
effect that any additional tip would be over-and-above for great
service. i was to be rewarded a balance of 1,440,444.44 (lots of
4s!). i asked for 40,000 cash, for 1.4M to be transferred to my
bank, and that the rest be left for the dealers. i also found a
100 dollar chip in my pocket, and donated that to them as well. i
thought this was a fine thing to do, and never meant to insult
anyone. in retrospect, perhaps i would have been better off
giving nothing in addition...i didn't mean for the low EXTRA tip
(relative to the win) to be an insult (like leaving a penny as a tip in
a restaurant would be). i thought that 500 dollars was a relevant
figure. had i known that this tip would NOT be appreciated, i
would not have given it.
i ask, if a forced tip is taken out of the prize pool, shouldn't it be
a sufficient one? isn't the very point of such a tip to AVOID low
tips and accusations such as the one mike has made against me?
..while i am new to the tournament scene, i am not new to cardroom
poker. i have played semi-professionally for 3 years at limits
ranging from 30/60 to 100/200. i have always been an average to
above-average tipper (1 dollar regadless of pot size, and more for
large pots) and have never gotten mad at a dealer or treated him or her
with disrespect. i appreciate the fact that they do their job
well. thank you to all dealers who have done me a great service
throughout the years!
lastly, i feel i should address chao's tip. i think it is
excellent that he tipped the dealers so much. i only wish that
mike's article had a different tone--one that commended him for his
generosity rather than exposing my "low" tip. also, it should be
noted that his tip was not 15,000 to my 500. remember that 3% is
taken out already. that 3 % amounted to $45,000 for me, while it
is only $23,500 for his prize. therefore i am tipping $45,500 to
his $38,500. the ratio doesn't seem as bad when this is
considered. i applaud chao for his generosity, and would never
argue that a larger tip should not be left.
i only argue that it should be left to the individual to decide, and
that the amount given should be left private. i will not be
"building a bridge over the troubled waters of Tunica,
Mississippi." i don't think any bridges need building.
thank you all,
john stolzmann
_______________________________________________________________
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WuzYoungOnceToo
who found the extra $500 to be "insulting" that they should feel free to
give their share back to you, and you will donate it to their favorite
charity. Or, if you prefer, you can stop by my office anytime you'd like
and tip *me* $500 for all of the hard work I do at my job ;-)
Quick
screwed on right.
I'm just a bit puzzled why you tip more for large
pots than your customary? I can only assume it
it because the dealer has to do more work to push
all those chips?
-Quick
WuzYoungOnceToo
> Hear! hear! Well said. I'm glad you have your head
> screwed on right.
>
> I'm just a bit puzzled why you tip more for large
> pots than your customary? I can only assume it
> it because the dealer has to do more work to push
> all those chips?
Perhaps he's just in an extra good mood when he pulls down a bigger pot,
or it's just his way of sharing his good fortune...or whatever.
_______________________________________________________________
The Largest Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
Eric J. Holtman
@recpoker.com:
> i know that this issue has spurred a heated debate, but after much
> self-reflection and reflection on the advice of others, i have come to
> believe that my tip was not a "crummy gratuity" at all; rather it is
> one that should be appreciated (and probably also be left confidential,
> which is a different issue entirely).
>
[snip long story, well thought out]
You. Da. Man.
You knew exactly what you were doing, you asked the right
questions, and gave exactly the right answers. 3% + $500
is generous, and if Mike Paulle thinks that's a little short,
he can reach into his pocket and make up the difference.
Steve Badger
>i know that this issue has spurred a heated debate, but after much
> self-reflection and reflection on the advice of others, i have come to
> believe that my tip was not a "crummy gratuity" at all; rather it is
> one that should be appreciated (and probably also be left confidential,
> which is a different issue entirely).
You should not have left anything. The money for staff was already taken
out. Tipping anything is not just foolish, it is counter-productive to the
interests of players and staff.
> and never meant to insult anyone.
You didn't. Leaving a tip was a mistake, but people can make mistakes.
> in retrospect, perhaps i would have been better off
> giving nothing in addition...
Frankly, this is obvious to anyone. Any tournament employee trolling for
tips after 3% is taken out should be fired and blacklisted.
> i ask, if a forced tip is taken out of the prize pool, shouldn't it be
> a sufficient one?
The whole idea of tips is 20th century foolishness. Casinos need to, and
are now responsible for, paying their employees.
> lastly, i feel i should address chao's tip. i think it is
> excellent that he tipped the dealers so much.
No, the key problem here is Chao's tip. Rich folks can be as generous as
they want with anybody they want, but tipping should never be done in a
tournament where 3% is taken. It's a flat out stupid idea.
It's like tipping 15% on top of the 15% you leave in a restaurant.
I've personally been promoting the 3% idea since 2000. It makes sense in
every way, especially for taxes for non-professional players who can not
deduct tips. Tipping over and above that amount is counter-productive and
senseless, and expecting any amount over that is basically just plain evil.
--
Steve Badger
http://www.playwinningpoker.com
Jeannie
john stolzmann wrote:
> i know that this issue has spurred a heated debate, but after much
> self-reflection and reflection on the advice of others, i have come
to
> believe that my tip was not a "crummy gratuity" at all; rather it is
> one that should be appreciated (and probably also be left
confidential,
> which is a different issue entirely).
John, I am glad you have come to peace with your decision and I think
it is the right one. I can only guess that the people so critical of
your tip did not know that 3% is already taken for gratuities in
tournaments. Also if you tip your dealer in a tournament, it sounds
like it only goes into a large pot for all the tournament staff to
share, so you aren't doing your individual dealer much good anyway even
with a large tip.
To the people who equate poker table tipping with restaurant tipping,
there is a world of difference. Waitstaff take orders, carry plates,
do cashier type work, memorize specials, must avoid tripping over
wayward children, etc...compare that to sitting at a table dealing
poker and the difference becomes obvious. I think 3-5% is perfectly
fair for dealers, and 15-25% is fair for waitstaff depending on how
well they do the above tasks (and attitude, of course).
Jeannie
back to lurking
KookieMonstr
Peg Smith
wrote:
>i thought that 500 dollars was a relevant
>figure. had i known that this tip would NOT be appreciated, i
>would not have given it.
Good for you. I'm shocked that you're being painted as a cheapskate
here, and any ungrateful assholes who are doing it should be fired.
>i ask, if a forced tip is taken out of the prize pool, shouldn't it be
>a sufficient one?
Yes, and it is.
>isn't the very point of such a tip to AVOID low
>tips and accusations such as the one mike has made against me?
Yep. And as it's been demonstrated in the last few years that 3% has
been withheld from the prize pools for the dealers, there's still
plenty of bitching and bawling from them,
They should be horsewhipped. As a former dealer and a person who's
household is now living on dealer tokes, I'm ashamed of every one of
those crybabies.
Your $500 extra toke was an unexpected generosity that you should be
profusely thanked for. Fuck 'em.
Peg
King of the Off Deuce
Actually, your second thought of tipping nothing was the correct
decision.
Now, hopefully, you can put this behind you and enjoy the money. And
post here a few times so we can pick your brain.
ContactGSW
> i only argue that it should be left to the individual to decide, and
> that the amount given should be left private. i will not be
> "building a bridge over the troubled waters of Tunica,
> Mississippi." i don't think any bridges need building.
>
> thank you all,
>
> john stolzmann
Well said. The shame of the new poker boom is how everybody is scrambling
to take the biggest cut possible from the people who just want to play
poker. The underhanded way this 'dealer' went about this and Paule's
aquiesense should have the poker players attention, we are why they have
thier jobs, they are here to provide a service to us. Your stand should
be a distinct message to them, earn your pay, be grateful the hold out
structure gives you an extra premium, if not, try to find another means of
making this kind of money. These people are biting the hands that feed
them.
'I feel strongly both ways'
ContactGSW
______________________________________________________________________
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Susan
I thought he was very professional.
"KookieMonstr" <alo...@chem.ucsb.edu> wrote in message
news:1107203358$406...@recpoker.com...
Josh
On Jan 31 2005 2:06 PM, WuzYoungOnceToo wrote:
> No worries John...you are 100% in the right on this one. I'd tell
> anyone
> who found the extra $500 to be "insulting" that they should feel free to
> give their share back to you, and you will donate it to their favorite
> charity. Or, if you prefer, you can stop by my office anytime you'd
> like
> and tip *me* $500 for all of the hard work I do at my job ;-)
_______________________________________________________________
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Thomas Johnson
bill in a restaurant. If 3% isn't fair, it should be raised to
what is fair.
Thanks for giving this a bunch of thought. Oh, and congratulations on
your win!
Tom
_______________________________________________________________
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CincinnatiKid
> damn you took 40k in cash? who the fuck are you, tony montana?
*cough*Hookers*cough*
The man just set himself for life! If I won that kind of money you can bet
your ass I'd be partying like it was 1999.
> On Jan 31 2005 2:06 PM, WuzYoungOnceToo wrote:
>
> > No worries John...you are 100% in the right on this one. I'd tell
> > anyone
> > who found the extra $500 to be "insulting" that they should feel free to
> > give their share back to you, and you will donate it to their favorite
> > charity. Or, if you prefer, you can stop by my office anytime you'd
> > like
> > and tip *me* $500 for all of the hard work I do at my job ;-)
-------
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
CincinnatiKid
> I can't remember the last time I left a tip beyond the 18% put on the
> bill in a restaurant. If 3% isn't fair, it should be raised to
> what is fair.
>
> Thanks for giving this a bunch of thought. Oh, and congratulations on
> your win!
>
> Tom
John was very PC. I would've given Mike P. a big F.U.! Since he made it
personal, I also might have chosen to talk to mike "out back" at the next
event.
---
* kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com
WuzYoungOnceToo
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Nienhouse
You were already forced to tip $45,000. Now they want an extra 2%
($30,000), give me a break. That is a year's salary for a lot of people
our age, you earned it.
OFT1
I agree completely.
the 3% thing is enough.
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WardenS
> The man just set himself for life! If I won that kind of money you can bet
> your ass I'd be partying like it was 1999.
So... Whippets?
-------
CincinnatiKid
> On Jan 31 2005 3:56 PM, CincinnatiKid wrote:
>
> > The man just set himself for life! If I won that kind of money you can bet
> > your ass I'd be partying like it was 1999.
>
>
> So... Whippets?
Are you insuating that one should take part in an act of beastiality if
they win a large cash prize? You sick bastard.....
_______________________________________________________________________
Deftly Done
Mike Paulle, and his flagrant yellow journalism is absolutely
beyond the pale. His argument is without merit and his position
preposterous. If he expects people seriously consider the
things he says, he should back off the tone, and drop he hypocritical
moral point of view.
Instead, a man who could never do what you did himself, decides
to take a position representing the "touring dealer association".
Send Mr Paulle and his railbird gossip back to the trash bin.
Poker Pages has clearly sanctioned this personal attack on
Mr Solzman as evidenced by its publication. This is
confusing. Not only do the players contribute every penny of the
payout and reward the casino handsomly for a for a five day tornament,
in the process they are filmed by a company which I presume pays them
nothing, and their images are sold to advertisers on Travel and ESPN
for fees which do not accrue to the players.
Now the dealers are on the rail asking for more.
Who exactly does Poker Pages represent? Certainly not the players.
> ...while i am new to the tournament scene, i am not new to cardroom
> poker. i have played semi-professionally for 3 years at limits
> ranging from 30/60 to 100/200. i have always been an average to
> above-average tipper (1 dollar regadless of pot size, and more for
> large pots) and have never gotten mad at a dealer or treated him or her
> with disrespect. i appreciate the fact that they do their job
> well. thank you to all dealers who have done me a great service
> throughout the years!
>
> lastly, i feel i should address chao's tip. i think it is
> excellent that he tipped the dealers so much. i only wish that
> mike's article had a different tone--one that commended him for his
> generosity rather than exposing my "low" tip. also, it should be
> noted that his tip was not 15,000 to my 500. remember that 3% is
> taken out already. that 3 % amounted to $45,000 for me, while it
> is only $23,500 for his prize. therefore i am tipping $45,500 to
> his $38,500. the ratio doesn't seem as bad when this is
> considered. i applaud chao for his generosity, and would never
> argue that a larger tip should not be left.
>
> i only argue that it should be left to the individual to decide, and
> that the amount given should be left private. i will not be
> "building a bridge over the troubled waters of Tunica,
> Mississippi." i don't think any bridges need building.
>
> thank you all,
>
> john stolzmann
_______________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com v2.1 - http://www.recpoker.com
Bonesy
tipping procedures. But I was a waiter for many years. Most waiters
would be happy to know that they were guaranteed 15% and could make more
no matter how hard they worked that evening. Of course in most
restaurants, waiters could make less than 15%. I'm assuming the dealers
will always get paid the 3% and can't make less. I agree that if 3% is
the standard, then the dealers have nothing to be upset about. What IS
wrong is trying to determine the worth of a dealer or waiter's
livelihood. There was a loathsome Englishman who once grossly undertipped
a large bill. When I asked if the service was lacking, he replied "No,
but that is enough for a waiter". What is enough for a waiter and dealer
is 15% and 3% respectively. That is assuming the service was up to par
and not negligent. Can the dealers make less than the 3%? I guess if
they weren't good, they would simply be fired.
> ...while i am new to the tournament scene, i am not new to cardroom
> poker. i have played semi-professionally for 3 years at limits
> ranging from 30/60 to 100/200. i have always been an average to
> above-average tipper (1 dollar regadless of pot size, and more for
> large pots) and have never gotten mad at a dealer or treated him or her
> with disrespect. i appreciate the fact that they do their job
> well. thank you to all dealers who have done me a great service
> throughout the years!
>
> lastly, i feel i should address chao's tip. i think it is
> excellent that he tipped the dealers so much. i only wish that
> mike's article had a different tone--one that commended him for his
> generosity rather than exposing my "low" tip. also, it should be
> noted that his tip was not 15,000 to my 500. remember that 3% is
> taken out already. that 3 % amounted to $45,000 for me, while it
> is only $23,500 for his prize. therefore i am tipping $45,500 to
> his $38,500. the ratio doesn't seem as bad when this is
> considered. i applaud chao for his generosity, and would never
> argue that a larger tip should not be left.
>
> i only argue that it should be left to the individual to decide, and
> that the amount given should be left private. i will not be
> "building a bridge over the troubled waters of Tunica,
> Mississippi." i don't think any bridges need building.
>
> thank you all,
>
> john stolzmann
_______________________________________________________________
jimpepper
> i know that this issue has spurred a heated debate, but after much
> self-reflection and reflection on the advice of others, i have come to
> believe that my tip was not a "crummy gratuity" at all; rather it is
> one that should be appreciated (and probably also be left confidential,
> which is a different issue entirely).
>
I agree with you John. They took their tip. You should not of left
anything additional and just said the tip was included if asked. 45k is
pretty dam generous .
I am sure you would of tipped more than %3 if it were left up to you.
Mike P. is way out of line here .Way way out of line.
They can't have it both ways.
Nice win ,congrats
jim
Aodhan
bet
> > > your ass I'd be partying like it was 1999.
> >
> >
> > So... Whippets?
>
>
> Are you insuating that one should take part in an act of beastiality if
> they win a large cash prize? You sick bastard.....
You're just jealous you didn't think of it first.
Pssst...Warden, it's "whip-its"...Whippet is a kind of dog.
Aodhan
------
MuckMe
a shame you should have any bad feelings about such a glarious day in
your poker life when you did nothing wrong.
Congrats on the big win!
Go Badgers!!
MM
Gary Philips
i only argue that it should be left to the individual to decide, and
that the amount given should be left private. i will not be
"building a bridge over the troubled waters of Tunica,
Mississippi." i don't think any bridges need building.
John, the only troubled waters of the Mississippi were those rising
above the flood stage recently. This is Gary Philips. I ran the
super satellites at the WPO. I remember you doing an excellent job
of surviving that Sunday being one of the 25 we put into the big one.
You must have a lot of trouble with your last name as I too spelled
it then with one "n" only to be corrected by you at the registration
desk when signing up for the Championship Event.
Congrats on your win. Don't let the celebrity status get to you as
there are those who seem to have nothing better to do than to bring
down a person. A whole new world has opened up and more power to you.
The dealers, and I can personally attest, were well taken care of for
that event. You need not explain to anyone your actions, as there is
nothing to explain. Enjoy your title as WPO champion for the coming
year. I look forward to seeing you come back and defend that title
next year. Oh and good luck in the $25,000 tournament at the Bellagio
that you qualified for in winning the WPO event.
Gary (G-man) Philips
MarlaSinger
> "john stolzmann" <jsto...@yahoo.com> wrote...
> >i know that this issue has spurred a heated debate, but after much
> > self-reflection and reflection on the advice of others, i have come to
> > believe that my tip was not a "crummy gratuity" at all; rather it is
> > one that should be appreciated (and probably also be left confidential,
> > which is a different issue entirely).
>
> You should not have left anything. The money for staff was already taken
> out. Tipping anything is not just foolish, it is counter-productive to the
> interests of players and staff.
That's for him to decide, not you. Tipping being counter-productive is
your opinion, and probably not a correct one.
> > and never meant to insult anyone.
>
> You didn't. Leaving a tip was a mistake, but people can make mistakes.
You can speak for others too?
> > in retrospect, perhaps i would have been better off
> > giving nothing in addition...
>
> Frankly, this is obvious to anyone. Any tournament employee trolling for
> tips after 3% is taken out should be fired and blacklisted.
Who said anyone was trolling for tips?
> > i ask, if a forced tip is taken out of the prize pool, shouldn't it be
> > a sufficient one?
>
> The whole idea of tips is 20th century foolishness. Casinos need to, and
> are now responsible for, paying their employees.
One way or another, dealers will accept a minimum, until the minimum is
too low. Then the quality of dealing will either decrease or people
simply won't deal.
> > lastly, i feel i should address chao's tip. i think it is
> > excellent that he tipped the dealers so much.
>
> No, the key problem here is Chao's tip. Rich folks can be as generous as
> they want with anybody they want, but tipping should never be done in a
> tournament where 3% is taken. It's a flat out stupid idea.
Again I presume you are ignorant. You should read what Chuck Humphrey
said about the subject, I think he was there when the practice was first
put into play.
> It's like tipping 15% on top of the 15% you leave in a restaurant.
Have you no understanding of math? How about analogies? That is like a
$450,000 tip, on top the $450,000 already taken out. Nice exaggeration.
> I've personally been promoting the 3% idea since 2000. It makes sense in
> every way, especially for taxes for non-professional players who can not
> deduct tips. Tipping over and above that amount is counter-productive and
> senseless, and expecting any amount over that is basically just plain evil.
> --
> Steve Badger
> http://www.playwinningpoker.com
Anything over that is counter-productive? Not 3.2134% or 3.1345% or
3.6743%? Exactly 3%. Evil, yes, someone needs smoting.
---------------------------------
On the whole, human beings want to be good, but not too good and not quite
all the time.
---George Orwell
--------
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
MarlaSinger
> i know that this issue has spurred a heated debate, but after much
> self-reflection and reflection on the advice of others, i have come to
> believe that my tip was not a "crummy gratuity" at all; rather it is
> one that should be appreciated (and probably also be left confidential,
> which is a different issue entirely).
Completely confidential.
> after having received numerous emails regarding this issue (two coming
> from top-level tournament professionals), i am convinced that the 3%
> tip allotted to the staff is sufficient, and anything more is generous.
>
> i AM new to the tournament scene. upon getting paid, i was told
> that i had the option of leaving an additional tip. i asked the
> tournament director (who did an excellent job throughout, btw) if 3%
> had already been taken out, to which he replied that it had been.
> i don't want to quote exacly, but i think he said something to the
> effect that any additional tip would be over-and-above for great
> service. i was to be rewarded a balance of 1,440,444.44 (lots of
> 4s!). i asked for 40,000 cash, for 1.4M to be transferred to my
> bank, and that the rest be left for the dealers. i also found a
> 100 dollar chip in my pocket, and donated that to them as well. i
> thought this was a fine thing to do, and never meant to insult
> anyone. in retrospect, perhaps i would have been better off
> giving nothing in addition...i didn't mean for the low EXTRA tip
> (relative to the win) to be an insult (like leaving a penny as a tip in
> a restaurant would be). i thought that 500 dollars was a relevant
> figure. had i known that this tip would NOT be appreciated, i
> would not have given it.
Who of any importance did not appreciate it? A floorperson, or dealer? I
didn't read Paulle's article, but did some dealer bitch?
> i ask, if a forced tip is taken out of the prize pool, shouldn't it be
> a sufficient one? isn't the very point of such a tip to AVOID low
> tips and accusations such as the one mike has made against me?
Sufficiency is a matter of opinion, there is no exact percentage. No, it
is not the very point of taking out 3% of the prize pool. That is just a
fortunate side benefit.
> ...while i am new to the tournament scene, i am not new to cardroom
> poker. i have played semi-professionally for 3 years at limits
> ranging from 30/60 to 100/200. i have always been an average to
> above-average tipper (1 dollar regadless of pot size, and more for
> large pots) and have never gotten mad at a dealer or treated him or her
> with disrespect. i appreciate the fact that they do their job
> well. thank you to all dealers who have done me a great service
> throughout the years!
Good. If everyone were like this, dealing would be less of a shitty job.
I would hope that the dealers appreciate players like you, because they
should.
> lastly, i feel i should address chao's tip. i think it is
> excellent that he tipped the dealers so much. i only wish that
> mike's article had a different tone--one that commended him for his
> generosity rather than exposing my "low" tip. also, it should be
> noted that his tip was not 15,000 to my 500. remember that 3% is
> taken out already. that 3 % amounted to $45,000 for me, while it
> is only $23,500 for his prize. therefore i am tipping $45,500 to
> his $38,500. the ratio doesn't seem as bad when this is
> considered. i applaud chao for his generosity, and would never
> argue that a larger tip should not be left.
>
> i only argue that it should be left to the individual to decide, and
> that the amount given should be left private. i will not be
> "building a bridge over the troubled waters of Tunica,
> Mississippi." i don't think any bridges need building.
>
> thank you all,
>
> john stolzmann
Nice score.
---------------------------------
On the whole, human beings want to be good, but not too good and not quite
all the time.
---George Orwell
______________________________________________________________________
Steve Badger
> One way or another, dealers will accept a minimum, until the minimum is
> too low. Then the quality of dealing will either decrease or people
> simply won't deal.
Which is the point of the 3%. Three percent is far higher than staff
normally got via tipping
>> It's like tipping 15% on top of the 15% you leave in a restaurant.
>
> Have you no understanding of math? How about analogies? That is like a
> $450,000 tip, on top the $450,000 already taken out. Nice exaggeration.
Math is apparently not your strong suit. 15% of 450,000 is 67,500, not
450,000.
> Anything over that is counter-productive? Not 3.2134% or 3.1345% or
> 3.6743%? Exactly 3%. Evil, yes, someone needs smoting.
No, not exactly 3%. Be rational please. Casinos can charge whatever they
want to pass along costs to customers depending upon the number of them. It
is absurd to gratuity after the gratuity has already been paid.
This ridiculous notion that players should pay for casino employees even
after they have been charged for casino employees is rotten, and it has held
back the cause of tournament staff and players for the entire history of the
game. Contributing to the casino's abdication of their responsibility is to
be part of the problem.
Casinos should charge entrance fees and casinos should pay their employees.
Josh
_______________________________________________________________
Oliver Tse
> Casinos should charge entrance fees and casinos should pay their
> employees.
In a perfect world, that would make sense.
However, tournament poker is part of the "entertainment industry", which
is far from perfect and is anything but "logical"
In the "entertainment industry", bad-mouthing and backstabbing are
accepted business practices.
Chau Giang tipped an extra 2% because he understood the way the
"entertainment business" operates. The extra 2% Chau paid was "protection
money", the kind od "protection money" that small business owners
routinely paid local law enforcement personnel to made sure that the
windows aren't "broken" and their property not "looted" in the middle of
the night.
John Myung's reputation was smeared when he didn't leave enough
"protection money" for the tournament staff after winning the 2003
"Showdown at the Sands"
in Atlantic City. Even though Myung returned with an extra tip later, his
reputation as a "cheapskate" has stuck and he will never get his
reputation back in the industry no matter what he does in the future.
John Stoltzmann's reputation is now being smeared because he didn't
understand the rules of the "entertainment business" well enough to
understand that he had to leave enough "protection money" behind to
protect his reputation.
No matter what Stoltzmann does to defend himself or try to repair his
reputation, his reputation in the industry has been ruined and he will
NEVER be able to shake the "cheapskate" label no matter what he does in
the future.
That's just the way the "entertainment industry" works: if you are a
"good guy" ONLY 99.9% of the time, you are going to be labeled by the
industry as a "bad guy" because you tripped up 1 time out of 1000 and you
will be forever remembered for the time you tripped up. Once you screwed
up, your reputation is gone forever and you will not have another chance
to get your repuation back. This is not fair and is not logical, but this
is the way the "entertainment industry" works.
TheBoognish
the way home, then he's still a cheapskate? Man, that's harsh.
_______________________________________________________________
Your Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
Quick
Oliver Tse
> Forever!?! So if John gives all of his money to a homeless guy on
> the way home, then he's still a cheapskate? Man, that's harsh.
Against, John Stoltzmann will be forever remembered by the tournament
poker "industry" as a "cheapskate" because he did not leave enough
"protection money" behind to protect his reputation. His reputation is
now ruined forever and can NEVER (and I do mean NEVER) be repaired even if
he returns to Tunica to leave behind an extra tip.
That's the way the "entertainment industry" operates. It is not fair, it
is not logical, it is extremely harsh, but that's just the way it is.
_______________________________________________________________
* New Release: RecPoker.com v2.1 - http://www.recpoker.com
Bill T
"Oliver Tse" <oli...@best.com> wrote in message
news:1107218024$406...@recpoker.com...
<<snip>>>
> Chau Giang tipped an extra 2% because he understood the way the
> "entertainment business" operates. The extra 2% Chau paid was "protection
> money", the kind od "protection money" that small business owners
> routinely paid local law enforcement personnel to made sure that the
> windows aren't "broken" and their property not "looted" in the middle of
> the night.
<<snip>>
Oh crap. Why should a tournament poker player care about his reputation
with the dealers?? What is a dealer going to do - stick pins in a voodoo
doll?
Randy
>On Jan 31 2005 4:43 PM, TheBoognish wrote:
>
>> Forever!?! So if John gives all of his money to a homeless guy on
>> the way home, then he's still a cheapskate? Man, that's harsh.
>
>Against, John Stoltzmann will be forever remembered by the tournament
>poker "industry" as a "cheapskate" because he did not leave enough
>"protection money" behind to protect his reputation. His reputation is
>now ruined forever and can NEVER (and I do mean NEVER) be repaired even if
>he returns to Tunica to leave behind an extra tip.
OH MY GOD...the poker industry which welcomes cheats (you fill in the
blanks), child abusers (Amarillo), moochers, dealer abusers, and other
reprobates? That poker industry? A kid who just had the biggest day of
his life and only tipped 45k has a ruined reputation? Oliver, I think
you play a good role here on RGP with your entertainment
connections...but this post is too bizarre to take serious.
>
>That's the way the "entertainment industry" operates. It is not fair, it
>is not logical, it is extremely harsh, but that's just the way it is.
>
Maybe in your world. In my world John seems like a nice kid.
Randy Collack
Quick
No that would be the crazy lady in seat 8. Before the
no smoking law she used to constantly mutter, light
matches and wave them over her chips...
-Quick
TheBoognish
of? A few cry
baby dealers and you?
_______________________________________________________________
staxe
> On Jan 31 2005 4:43 PM, TheBoognish wrote:
>
> > Forever!?! So if John gives all of his money to a homeless guy on
> > the way home, then he's still a cheapskate? Man, that's harsh.
>
> Against, John Stoltzmann will be forever remembered by the tournament
> poker "industry" as a "cheapskate" because he did not leave enough
> "protection money" behind to protect his reputation. His reputation is
> now ruined forever and can NEVER (and I do mean NEVER) be repaired even
> if
> he returns to Tunica to leave behind an extra tip.
>
> That's the way the "entertainment industry" operates. It is not fair,
> it
> is not logical, it is extremely harsh, but that's just the way it is.
Sure it is very harsh, if you really care about what the "entertainment
industry" thinks of you. Lets hope this young man cares more about
compounding interest. That money will go a lot farther than respect in
the "entertainment industry".
Richard H
People love to focus on the negative. That's
just how society is. Tabloid magazines have
survived for years on negative themes, despite
the facts. Unfortunately for this guy, he's already "tagged" as a "stiff
and or cheapskate" just by the sheer # of arguments occuring from this
topic alone. Guilty by association goes on daily,whether true or untrue.
If it quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck, swims like a duck.
Well..you Know. (Not the best Example but you get
my drift)
Other then the "mumbles" he'll recieve when he walks by, no big deal.
However, he won't be
remembered as the kid who beat Chau Gaing.But
as the "stiff" from Tunica. Because people
remember the negative.
O Yea, might want to skip Tunica next year.
"Play to win" Richard Harris
--
Read, Post, and Reply to RGP Posts at
http://LiveActionPoker.com
Watch Streaming Poker TV now at:
http://PokerUpdates.com
MarlaSinger
> "MarlaSinger" <a1...@webnntp.invalid> wrote...
> > One way or another, dealers will accept a minimum, until the minimum is
> > too low. Then the quality of dealing will either decrease or people
> > simply won't deal.
>
> Which is the point of the 3%. Three percent is far higher than staff
> normally got via tipping
I am pretty sure it was more than 3 sometimes, and less others. How would
you know that on average it was less?
> >> It's like tipping 15% on top of the 15% you leave in a restaurant.
> >
> > Have you no understanding of math? How about analogies? That is like a
> > $450,000 tip, on top the $450,000 already taken out. Nice exaggeration.
>
> Math is apparently not your strong suit. 15% of 450,000 is 67,500, not
> 450,000.
Apparently I either didn't understand what you wrote, or you weren't
clear. I was under the impression that you meant 15% of the large sum
twice. Not 15% of the 15%.
> > Anything over that is counter-productive? Not 3.2134% or 3.1345% or
> > 3.6743%? Exactly 3%. Evil, yes, someone needs smoting.
>
> No, not exactly 3%. Be rational please. Casinos can charge whatever they
> want to pass along costs to customers depending upon the number of them. It
> is absurd to gratuity after the gratuity has already been paid.
Lets do be rational, to say that anyone's actions might be evil is not.
Casinos can.
It is not agreed by all people that 3% is regarded as the entire tip.
What I mean is that, that much is taken off the top, whoever is
comfortable tipping more, should feel free, but not compelled to. What
disgusts me is someone who actively suggests to people that they should
give people (dealers, etc.) less. Until there is no tipping at all, or
the toke box is no longer in use, it is there for the people who are
inclined to tip. It is your opinion that the 3% is the entire tip, so
keep it to yourself.
> This ridiculous notion that players should pay for casino employees even
> after they have been charged for casino employees is rotten, and it has held
> back the cause of tournament staff and players for the entire history of the
> game. Contributing to the casino's abdication of their responsibility is to
> be part of the problem.
>
> Casinos should charge entrance fees and casinos should pay their employees.
> --
> Steve Badger
> http://www.playwinningpoker.com
I won't go so far as agree with the effects of some of these things on the
future, chaos and all. If you want to do anything constructive, you can
try to get such practices enacted. Encouraging people to tip less, or
nothing (above the 3% taken of course) is a chicken-shit way to go.
---------------------------------
On the whole, human beings want to be good, but not too good and not quite
all the time.
---George Orwell
____________________________________________________________________
Steve Badger
"MarlaSinger" <a1...@webnntp.invalid> wrote...
> I am pretty sure it was more than 3 sometimes, and less others. How would
> you know that on average it was less?
Some people pay attention to things.
> It is your opinion that the 3% is the entire tip, so
> keep it to yourself.
Oh, you can have your opinion, but others can't. LOL
> I won't go so far as agree with the effects of some of these things on the
> future, chaos and all. If you want to do anything constructive, you can
> try to get such practices enacted. Encouraging people to tip less, or
> nothing (above the 3% taken of course) is a chicken-shit way to go.
I encourage this industry to mature, instead of function in archaic, unfair
and extortionist ways. Leaving employee compensation up to customers makes
no sense on any level. Tipping is a holdover from days where tournaments
had ten people. The 3% is a tremendous step for the industry. Now we just
have leave the immature ways behind, and everybody makes out for the better.
MarlaSinger
> "MarlaSinger" <a1...@webnntp.invalid> wrote...
> > I am pretty sure it was more than 3 sometimes, and less others. How would
> > you know that on average it was less?
>
> Some people pay attention to things.
So you paid attention. I am glad you have the facts.
> > It is your opinion that the 3% is the entire tip, so
> > keep it to yourself.
>
> Oh, you can have your opinion, but others can't. LOL
My opinion is that you should tip what you are comfortable with, and not
encourage people to tip less than that amount. I seem to recall you
sharing a similar type of disdain for floorpeople who would crassly insist
that customers toke more. How can you not see a contradiction in
condemning floorpeople for crassly insisting that a winner should toke
more, and you crassly telling people that they should not tip above 3%?
Well, I think I understand your mentality, you think 3% is meant to be the
entire thing. I don't agree, and as a matter of fact, there is a toke box
ready for winners of tourneys, even the ones that withhold 3%.
I have an opinion of whether or not John should have tipped more, but it
is irrelevant. I will allow you to have an opinion, I suppose, but I will
call you a chicken-shit for encouraging others to toke less. I don't try
to get people to toke more or less, I think others shouldn't either.
> > I won't go so far as agree with the effects of some of these things on the
> > future, chaos and all. If you want to do anything constructive, you can
> > try to get such practices enacted. Encouraging people to tip less, or
> > nothing (above the 3% taken of course) is a chicken-shit way to go.
>
> I encourage this industry to mature, instead of function in archaic, unfair
> and extortionist ways. Leaving employee compensation up to customers makes
> no sense on any level. Tipping is a holdover from days where tournaments
> had ten people. The 3% is a tremendous step for the industry. Now we just
> have leave the immature ways behind, and everybody makes out for the better.
> --
> Steve Badger
> http://www.playwinningpoker.com
I don't really want to agree with you at this point, but most of this may
be correct.
---------------------------------
On the whole, human beings want to be good, but not too good and not quite
all the time.
---George Orwell
______________________________________________________________________
King of the Off Deuce
Hell no! I hope he wins Tunica next year and asks the dealers for some
of his tip back.
Charlie Foxtrot
<PlayWinningPoker[REMOVE-THIS]@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I encourage this industry to mature, instead of function in archaic, unfair
>and extortionist ways. Leaving employee compensation up to customers makes
>no sense on any level. Tipping is a holdover from days where tournaments
>had ten people. The 3% is a tremendous step for the industry. Now we just
>have leave the immature ways behind, and everybody makes out for the better.
Nice theory, on paper.
Let's see if I can illustrate this...
Do you get better service in McDonald's or Chilli's?
Okay, now do you get better service in Chilli's or a four star
restaurant?
Still with me? You get what you pay for. Tipping is a part of the
hospitality industry, which casino gaming is a part of.
If a four star restaurant paid their servers what McDonald's pays, you
would not like the service and cease patronizing it.
On the flip side, if the four star restaurant went to a no tipping
policy and paid their servers what they expect to make in a four star
restaurant, the prices of the meal would be so high you would never
patronize the restaurant.
Now, imagine a world in which casino dealers got minimum wage or
slightly above. My, the bitching we would hear on RGP about how the
quality of dealers has declined.
Or, if you will, imagine a world in which casino dealers were paid, by
the casino, what they now make with tips, and players were not allowed
to tip. The five and ten, perhaps even twenty-five dollar table games
would be gone. Poker rakes would be more than double of what they are
now. Tourney "fees" would triple, or more...
And, somehow, I suspect the very same people who have issues with
tipping would howl long and loud about the "exhorborant" rake, the
"greedy casinos" taking out low limit tables, etc., etc.
Foxtrot
bigbetpoker
On Jan 31 2005 4:39 PM, CincinnatiKid wrote:
> On Jan 31 2005 4:28 PM, WardenS wrote:
>
> > On Jan 31 2005 3:56 PM, CincinnatiKid wrote:
> >
> > > The man just set himself for life! If I won that kind of money you
> > > can bet
> > > your ass I'd be partying like it was 1999.
> >
> >
> > So... Whippets?
>
>
> Are you insuating that one should take part in an act of beastiality if
> they win a large cash prize? You sick bastard.....
_______________________________________________________________
John Forsberg
appropriate for both dealers and waiters than a tip based on what the
customer is spending.
For instance, is there really more work involved in pushing a $10,000
pot than a $100 pot? Or for that matter serving a $500 bottle of wine
compared to a $50 bottle?
To me that seems like a pretty clear no. Or if not a no, at least
certainly not 100 or 10 times as much work.
So if the work is roughly the same, or only twice as hard, why would
anyone expect 10 or 100 times the reward?
Frankly, dealing or waiting is worth somewhere along the same figure
regardless of how much the customer is spending.
_______________________________________________________________
* New Release: RecPoker.com v2.1 - http://www.recpoker.com
WardenS
> Please stop being gay and posting your replies as a new thread.
>
Not sure about the gay thing (although the Whippets in question COULD be
male, but I'm not sure that counts...
But Cincy's reply is six deep in a thread, and yours is seventh. Are you
having newsreader trouble?
____________________________________________________________________
Rich Shipley
news:f94uv0dfbkg8kj97k...@4ax.com...
>
> Let's see if I can illustrate this...
>
> Do you get better service in McDonald's or Chilli's?
Usually McDonalds. Chilli's makes me wait around and often gets my order
wrong.
> Okay, now do you get better service in Chilli's or a four star
> restaurant?
The four star.
> Still with me? You get what you pay for. Tipping is a part of the
> hospitality industry, which casino gaming is a part of.
>
> If a four star restaurant paid their servers what McDonald's pays, you
> would not like the service and cease patronizing it.
OK
> On the flip side, if the four star restaurant went to a no tipping
> policy and paid their servers what they expect to make in a four star
> restaurant, the prices of the meal would be so high you would never
> patronize the restaurant.
If I go to an expensive retaurant that charged 15%-20% more with no tipping,
I'd have no problem at all.
> Now, imagine a world in which casino dealers got minimum wage or
> slightly above. My, the bitching we would hear on RGP about how the
> quality of dealers has declined.
OK
> Or, if you will, imagine a world in which casino dealers were paid, by
> the casino, what they now make with tips, and players were not allowed
> to tip. The five and ten, perhaps even twenty-five dollar table games
> would be gone. Poker rakes would be more than double of what they are
> now. Tourney "fees" would triple, or more...
I thoug we were talking about a 3-6% tip here. I'm not seeing how the fees
would triple.
> And, somehow, I suspect the very same people who have issues with
> tipping would howl long and loud about the "exhorborant" rake, the
> "greedy casinos" taking out low limit tables, etc., etc.
Probably.
Rich
hdjones
> i know that this issue has spurred a heated debate, but after much
> self-reflection and reflection on the advice of others, i have come to
> believe that my tip was not a "crummy gratuity" at all; rather it is
> one that should be appreciated (and probably also be left confidential,
> which is a different issue entirely).
>
> after having received numerous emails regarding this issue (two coming
> from top-level tournament professionals), i am convinced that the 3%
> tip allotted to the staff is sufficient, and anything more is generous.
Good for you. The bozo who wrote the editorial is the one in the wrong
here.
Congratulations on your tournament win.
jonesagain on pokerstars
Fortiter ille facit, qui miser esse potest
hdjones
I hope he demands another dealer if that "well-experienced dealer" who
complained to Paulle is at his table, and makes a huge deal of it in
public.
jonesagain on pokerstars
Fortiter ille facit, qui miser esse potest
_______________________________________________________________
The Largest Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
The Beast
tourney with 300 players, then it's a 3M pot, with a tip taken out of
90k.
If there is 9 to a table, you'd need 33 dealers to start with, half that
many the next day, half the next, until you only needed 1.
I'm GUESSING that at best, you're averaging 2 days work for the 33
dealers. And the average dealer gets 90k/33, or $2,727 for their
average of two days of work.
I'm sure it's a couple of tough days, and perhaps it's kind of a reward
for your top 33 dealers, but I think it's absurd to think that that kind
of payoff for that short a period of time is not sufficient.
If you want to ante up a little more, fine, I do that at the local
diner. But if one of the dealers wants to hand the job over to me for a
couple of days, I'll gladly take it.
Quick
> I think a tip directly related to performance seems far
> more appropriate for both dealers and waiters than a tip
> based on what the customer is spending.
>
> For instance, is there really more work involved in
> pushing a $10,000 pot than a $100 pot? Or for that matter
> serving a $500 bottle of wine compared to a $50 bottle?
>
> To me that seems like a pretty clear no. Or if not a no,
> at least certainly not 100 or 10 times as much work.
The physical work is not much different. It's what's behind
it that counts. and waiting is very different from dealing. I
agree that dealing is much more dependent on the mechanics.
There is also a bit to being able to *smoothly* keep a game
going at an appropriate pace and deal with troublesome
players.
When I go to a good restaurant it is not only for the food
but also for the experience. The atmosphere, being catered
to and not being annoyed by anything. I used to live in
Columbus, OH (*many* years ago). There was a restaurant
called Engine House #5 set in an old fire station. Certainly
not a really fancy restaurant but dinner would run you about
$50. The food was great (not excellent). The waiters were all
college students. The extraordinary part was the service. Without
fail the waiters would take a full table's order (I was there
with up to 8 people) with their hands behind their back.
They could describe each and every item on the menu,
where it came from, when it was flown in, exactly how it
was prepared and presented, what came with it and how i
t all worked together while suggesting similar alternatives,
wine to go with it, etc. This was for your entire 3 or 4 course
meal including desert. They never made a mistake.
Everything arrived just when you thought about it.
Food always got to my table at Denny's too but it just
didn't seem the same...
-Quick
Michael Sullivan
> I think a tip directly related to performance seems far more
> appropriate for both dealers and waiters than a tip based on what the
> customer is spending.
>
> For instance, is there really more work involved in pushing a $10,000
> pot than a $100 pot? Or for that matter serving a $500 bottle of wine
> compared to a $50 bottle?
>
> To me that seems like a pretty clear no. Or if not a no, at least
> certainly not 100 or 10 times as much work.
>
> So if the work is roughly the same, or only twice as hard, why would
> anyone expect 10 or 100 times the reward?
>
> Frankly, dealing or waiting is worth somewhere along the same figure
> regardless of how much the customer is spending.
In restaurants it makes a lot more sense for two reasons:
1) the variation in typical sit down restaurant bills is fairly low.
Where I live, it's hard to get a sit down meal anywhere for less than
$20-25/head, and anything over $100/head is really rich.
2) The level and complexity of expected service is highly correlated
with the price of the meal. When I go to the local pizza joint and sit
down, I figure I'm being served by someone who has a dozen or more
tables. If the staff is pleasant, not stupid and doesn't completely
ignore me, then they have done their job well. When I go to a schmancy
jacket-tie place and pay a ton of dollars, I normally expect (and in
good places, get) nearly immediate service 90% of the time, because
there is one staff person for every 3 or 4 4-tops. At the incredibly
fancy place, I may have a 4 course meal with a couple of wines. At any
given restaurant, ordering more dishes == more work and a higher bill.
It's a lot easier to just take X% of the bill than try to account for
how many dishes you ordered and special requests you made, etc.
This breaks down at really cheap places, breakfast counters, etc., but I
always tip way more than the standard when my meal is under $10.
OTOH, dealers at a poker table are doing *exactly* the same work
independent of stakes.
Michael
The Beast
counts. and waiting is very different from dealing. I agree that dealing
is much more dependent on the mechanics. There is also a bit to being
able to *smoothly* keep a game
going at an appropriate pace and deal with troublesome players."
Let's be honest, dealing is dealing. At least 90% of the dealers I've
had are virtually identical. They shuffle, they deal, they make some
change, they make you go in order, they push the pot to the winner.
Once a night maybe they call over the boss for a decision. They add no
value. And anyone of can do it with virtually no training.
OTOH, a waiter/waitress can make all the difference in a meal. They can
bring the meal hot, or miss it by 5 minutes. It's worth extra money to
me to have my coffee re-filled without having to yell for someone. They
wisk dishes off your table as you finish to allow more room. They'll
bring extra bread or butter or salad dressing if needed. They always
ask if you want to take anything home with you. If anyone here has
little kids, i don't need to explain what the table and floor looks like
when you're finished.
When you pay extra for good waitressing, you get a heck of a lot more
than you usually pay. When you tip a dealer extra, you almost always
get nothing extra. i always tip the dealer, but this idea that you're
getting something back for it is nuts.
Daniel Barton
like 90% of the people agree with what John did. Add me to
that list, if 3% was taken out anything over and above that
was gravy on top of the tip.
You know what really sucks? When someone on this list gets
a big win in a tourney they usually catch so much flack that
they leave the list and never come back. Congrats John, please
ignore the trolls, I hope you'll continue to post here.
Regards, Daniel
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
| daniel...@yahoo.com |
--------------------------------------------------------------
John Forsberg
were keeping a special lookout for them. ;-)
Michael Sullivan wrote:
> In restaurants it makes a lot more sense for two reasons:
>
> 1) the variation in typical sit down restaurant bills is fairly low.
> Where I live, it's hard to get a sit down meal anywhere for less than
> $20-25/head, and anything over $100/head is really rich.
>
> 2) The level and complexity of expected service is highly correlated
> with the price of the meal. When I go to the local pizza joint and sit
> down, I figure I'm being served by someone who has a dozen or more
> tables. If the staff is pleasant, not stupid and doesn't completely
> ignore me, then they have done their job well. When I go to a schmancy
> jacket-tie place and pay a ton of dollars, I normally expect (and in
> good places, get) nearly immediate service 90% of the time, because
> there is one staff person for every 3 or 4 4-tops. At the incredibly
> fancy place, I may have a 4 course meal with a couple of wines. At any
> given restaurant, ordering more dishes == more work and a higher bill.
> It's a lot easier to just take X% of the bill than try to account for
> how many dishes you ordered and special requests you made, etc.
I at least tried to say that the tip should be based on the quality (and
relevance) of the service provided rather than the amount payed for the
product purchased. As far as I can see you argument is that tipping a
percent of the price will corelate pretty well with that and hence that
is a good way to do it since the difference between the two methods will
be small and one is a lot easier.
The only thing I objected to was bonesy's statement: "What is enough for
a waiter and dealer is 15% and 3% respectively."
My point was that those percentages will break down for large and small
amounts. Which you seem to agree with.
I prefer handling these things by looking at what the service person
does rather than looking at the bill. This might mean paying a 50% or 0%
tip (I've yet been unable to pay a negative percentage tip, though it at
one or two times seemed motivated), it just seems a little bit closer to
a rational value for the service provided.
For what it's worth I tend to overtip in restaurants and am very
uncomfortable tipping in casinos. The reason for that is that 1) casinos
make a lot more money off me than a restaurant does per visit and 2)
they expect tips for a far smaller amount of service.
If I played a lot at casinos I would adopt a tip the dealer whn *he or I
leaves based on performance. There is no way in hell I'd voluntarily pay
more than $40k in tips for anything. Maybe if doctors took tips.
John Forsberg
pressed to find a restaurant worker deserving of 10 times the tip of an
ordinary meal. Of course, you'd also be hard pressed to find a meal 10
times as expensive. So for restaurants it won't make much difference if
you tip a fixed percentage.
However, I doubt that the 1-2 game has 100 times worse service than the
100-200 table. If they do I imagine it would involve women of loose
morals at the 100-200 table...
Gary Philips
> Let's be honest, dealing is dealing.
Yogi?
> At least 90% of the dealers I've had
Now you're just bragging.
> are virtually identical.
Twins? Now you're really bragging.
> They shuffle, they deal, they make some
> change, they make you go in order, they push the pot to the winner.
> Once a night maybe they call over the boss for a decision. They add no
> value.
You don't see that as value? Oh my. Bet you didn't tell them
that BEFORE you went to bed with them.
> And anyone of can do it with virtually no training.
Not your fault. So many people think that. Bob Ciaffone known as
"the coach" to some, thought that...until he tried it one year at
the Horseshoe in Las Vegas during the WSOP. If you get a chance,
ask him what he now thinks of it. In fact, if you get the chance,
why don't you try dealing? Walk a mile in their shoes and then see
if your opinion doesn't change.
To shuffle the cards without exposing them, to know not to make
any moves a card mechanic would, to deliver the cards low to the
table and with just enough force that they stop an inch from your
hands, to keep the game moving where the players have to pay attention
to the game, to know how to avoid circumstances that will lead to
a mistake, to be pleasant when spoken to and quiet when expected.
These are just a smidgeon of the things a good dealer will do.
To summerize it the way Ripley would, dealing is an art, believe
it or not.
Gary (...) Philips
Bulldog
Bravo! Well said.
JDT
<lvd...@midsouth.rr.com> wrote:
>These are just a smidgeon of the things a good dealer will do.
>To summerize it the way Ripley would, dealing is an art, believe
>it or not.
>
>Gary (...) Philips
There's an art to collecting garbage too.
Michael Sullivan
And a garbage collector in NYC makes about as much as a dealer in Vegas.
Michael
King of the Off Deuce
Vegas.
Michael "
Do garbage collectors beg for tips?
mb...@yahoo.com
Don't worry what others think. You are dead on with this. The tip was
already taken out, anything you give is above and beyond.
Congrats on the big win.
Maybe I'll get to be the next Madisonian to hit win it big!
Sean
Poker Champs: 50% rake back PLUS 50% affiliate rake back!
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da pickle
news:1107808219.8...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
It is not generally the custom ... however, to tip the garbage collector at
Christmas is customary in many places. Where are you from?
Quick
We always used to put out a wrapped bottle of JD.
Seemed to be greatly appreciated.
-Quick
da pickle
news:1107812743.701084@sj-nntpcache-5...
You are in a nice neighborhood ... where I'm from, Mad Dog 20/20 would be
the beverage of choice.
CFel...@aol.com
<Koroshiya.1ol6bm@no-mx..pokerhelper.com> wrote:
>
>I agree with John. If they are going to tap you for a "tip", then that
>should be sufficient to the extent no one will complain if more is not
>added.
>
>In my experience, when a mandatory tip is taken, or added to a bill,
>that is considered to be sufficient.
>
>If I go to a restaurant and they add-on a mandatory 15% to the bill, I
>take that as a bit of an insult and am usually not inclined to tip
>beyond that amount. If they strictly leave it up to me I am, barring
>bad service, going to tip more than any mandatory amount.
>
>
>Koroshiya.
Having worked in the service industry for 15 years - I can tell you
that, over the long haul, there are more 5% tippers in the world than
20% ones.
My experience comes from restaurants:
1) Servers (most likely dealers as well) make $2.13 an hour. A very
few might make more than this, but its rare. Most people have the
misconception that they make a decent living anyways, and the tip is
gravy.
2) They don't get to keep everything they scoop off the tables.
Busboys, Bartenders, Maitre'D's, expediters and sometimes even chefs
all want a share. A lot of places pool the tips - so that 20% tip you
gave your great waitress is balanced out by the 5% tip someone left
the shitty one.
3) It has been my experience that - IF - a restaurant has a policy to
"tag" a bill for a predetermined %age, there are usually certain
conditions first... i.e. groups of 6 or more. THESE are the worst
situations.
Generally - the bigger the check... the lower the %. People just
can't bring themselves to tip the $20 they should on a $100 check.
$20 just sounds like a lot of money for waiting on a table. To most
people $5 sounds like a lot of money for that kind of work.
Also - I have tried to make it known that the usual "15% rule" doesn't
necessarily apply hard and fast. There also needs to be a "time
spent" component. If its a casual place (Applebee's, Outback) then 90
minutes is about the limit. If you camp much longer than that, add a
few bucks/% to the tip.
and of course all this is just a matter of minimums. It has been my
experience that anyone who bitches about being forced to tip a certain
amount - regardless of what they say - would NOT have left more.
Now with dealers - it seems somewhat different. Are you tipping them
for being entertaining while doing their job well - or for dealing you
a good hand? :) Generally I tip $1 per pot I win at a 3/6 unless its
a blind steal. I did tip a couple extra that one time I caught the J
on the river to hit the straight w/ big slick.
Madd Scientist
at the final table. that is all. i will offer no more. the house
takes a hefty cut... why? to pay for dealers, tables, cards, chips,
floorspace etc.
the tables cards chips and floorspace have been paid for 100 times over
already... they don't even coun't at this point. so that 10% is going
to the dealers and tournament directors.... PAY THEM WITH THAT MONEY.
THAT IS WHAT IT IS FOR! so if 3% of just the first place money gives
each dealer over 2k, imagine what 10% is. sure there are casino
executives, licenses, and security to pay for, but come on.
this tip is retarded... if you can't get dealers to work unless an
additional 3% is paid, then just rake the buyin 13%. TIPPING IS
STUPID.