KNOW THE TRUTH! Cheating Tape Transcript!

[shinobi]

It is important to note that from the tape, we can see that 5 individuals
are present. These individuals are listed below:

Mike Caro
Phyllis Caro
Russell Georgiev
William Ira Nirdlinger
John L. Martino

(Begin Transcript: Tape 1)

Mike Caro: It is May 10th, 2001. It is 10:27 in the morning. I'm here with
Russ Georgiev, Bill Nirdlinger in the center, and over to the right here
is John Martino. Phyllis Caro is here as an observer. And we have ID's
here to film so I know who's who. Let me see them. Bring them in real
close.

(Driver's licenses are displayed)

Russell Georgiev
California Drivers License # (not displayed for privacy)
9063 Florence Ave. APT 306
Downey, CA 90240
DOB: 06-16-47

William Ira Nirdlinger
California Drivers License # (not displayed for privacy)
2005 Rockefeller Ln. APT 8
Redondo Beach, CA 90278
DOB: 06-14-49

John L. Martino
Nevada Drivers License
(NOTE: Text on this license was not legible. Laminated drivers license)

Mike Caro: Ok and we are here to talk about various aspects of cheating in
poker. And am I right to assume that all of you have been insiders at one
time or another as far as cheating in poker?

Russell Georgiev: Yes.

John Martino: Correct.

Mike Caro: In a brief opening statement I want to go from each from one to
another and I'll start with Russ. What can you tell me in general that a
player would need to know about what is going on in poker?

Russell Georgiev: Well, a player would need to know the higher he plays,
the more apt he is to get cheated. The biggest games are always being
cheated. They may not be cheated all the time, but there is a 100% factor
that they are being cheated.

Mike Caro: Do you know this as a matter of supposition or do you know this
as a matter of fact?

Russell Georgiev: I know this as a matter of fact. I participated in this
for at least 15 years in the front line trenches. I tried to put a stop to
it. Let's just say I was a participant in trying to put a stop to this
when the story broke in 1982 in Gardena.

Mike Caro: What story are you talking about?

Russell Georgiev: There was a story about corruption in the casinos in
Gardena on May 5th, May 6th, and May 7th, 1982 in the Los Angeles Times.
We had...at that time we were paying all management, all floor men, chip
girls, even security guards, policemen...everybody was on our payroll.
There were hundreds of us involved. Not everybody played the same roll. I
was a key player in this thing. I was also a key player in informing the
LA Times that this had to come to a halt. I came forth. I gave them about
10 hours of what was happening, which they printed. As far as I know, no
lawsuits came from what was said in the LA Times and names were printed
and basically that put an end to Gardena but Gardena was coming to an end.
So the cheats from Gardena had to go elsewhere. Now the casinos tried to
brush it off. They said, "Well, we put an end to it." Now the cheaters
agreed - obviously it was in the best interest of the casinos and the
cheaters to have it concealed that everything was taken care of because
they had to get back to the production of money, as did the casinos. But
just because management told you that the cheaters were gone - that was
not the fact because the cheats and management coincide. If the cheaters
leave one casino for another, that casino will get the big games. The big
games are always being cheated.

Mike Caro: Are you saying that in 1982, management was involved in the
cheating scams, or they knew about it, or they profited by it?

Russell Georgiev: Management profited by it. The casinos profited by it.

Mike Caro: Are you saying you paid people in order to be able to hopper?

Russell Georgiev: Yes. I paid everybody. I paid everybody. I paid
management...

(Mike Caro cuts Russ off...)

Mike Caro: Ok, Russ, we'll get into details later. As an opening
statement, what do you believe that status of cheating is today? Is it
better?

Russell Georgiev: It is worse because we have learned from our mistakes.
We cannot be as flamboyant as we used to be.

Mike Caro: What sorts of things are being used today to scam poker?

Russell Georgiev: Well, there is the basic scam of playing top hand or
playing the same money, which cuts down on a player going on tilt. When
you play a community bankroll, you can exist at the level. When playing
best hand, you get a gigantic edge over an individual. In scamming, you
would always want to have at least as many as the opposition or maybe one
more. You would have position on the opposition. This way, you would sign
off by signaling...

(Mike Caro cuts Russ off...)

Mike Caro: So your method of scamming was mostly through collusion then?
It wasn't through players?

Russell Georgiev: Well...

Mike Caro: Did you use marked cards?

Russell Georgiev: We used marked cards. We used dealers. We dealt to
ourselves. We always had casino management. Casino management was involved
95% of the time just in case something happened; we paid management to
hush it up - ok. That way if there are 4 of us and somebody said, "You're
cheating!" - 4 or 5 of us would stand up and say, "Ah, you don't know what
you're talking about." Just the law of numbers and the person who said....

(Mike Caro cuts Russ off...)

Mike Caro: What you're telling me is all very general - Is there any
specific persons that you know of that...

(Russell Georgiev cuts Mike off...)

Russell Georgiev: George Ersich. Once we got to George Ersich...

Mike Caro: Who is George Ersich?

Russell Georgiev: George Ersich was one of the main card room managers at
the Horseshoe in Gardena.

Mike Caro: Did he help you facilitate games?

Russell Georgiev: We paid him and he looked the other way. We got a few
various floor men and we got information when the heat was on. What I mean
by "when the heat was on" was when we could go and deal. Deal off the
bottom - when we could bring mechanics in. Having somebody who could deal
you key hands would make the hourly rate more profitable.

Mike Caro: Ok, I'm going to get back to you. We are going to try to let
this story evolve bit by bit. I want to get a little piece from each of
you. I'm coming over to you now Bill, and I'd like you to tell me in
anyway you want to tell me about what you know about cheating in poker
today - about yesterday - about your involvement - about what you think
the dangers are...and just go.

William Nirdlinger: From 1971...

Mike Caro: Can you speak a little louder?

William Nirdlinger: From 1971 to 1975 I worked as a poker dealer
throughout Las Vegas. Whatever card room had the action, that's where I
dealt. I dealt at the Dunes, Binions, Silver City. I was friends with Tony
Spilotro.

Mike Caro: Tony Spilotro was who?

William Nirdlinger: He was a man who had teams of poker players...

Mike Caro: This was the person who was affiliated with organized crime out
of Chicago. That's the Tony Spilotro you are talking about?

William Nirdlinger: Right. Wherever the action was, that's where I went. I
was a mechanic and I would do very simple things to get all of the money,
which was a big edge. I left Las Vegas in 75' and traveled the country
playing poker and dealing poker.

Mike Caro: When you were a mechanic, you must have been affiliated with
somebody. Somebody must have wanted you to be a mechanic or did you only
deal for yourself? Because in Vegas they hire separate dealers - so you
had to be helping somebody. Who was it that you were helping?

William Nirdlinger: All the big players.

Mike Caro: Can you name some of them?

William Nirdlinger: Sarge, Puggy, Doyle. But Doyle wasn't cheating at the
time we were cheating him. But Doyle was mostly playing paper and would
have the floor man bring it in for him.

Mike Caro: When you say paper, explain what you mean.

William Nirdlinger: Marked cards.

Mike Caro: Ok, and what was that marked with - flash or daub or?

William Nirdlinger: White flash.

Mike Caro: So back in what year would this be for?

William Nirdlinger: This was 73.

Mike Caro: Ok, so you are saying that Doyle was bringing in his own paper
- marked cards but you were still beating him - cheating him at the same
time?

William Nirdlinger: Yeah. Alot of times he wouldn't have the paper in and
somebody would be carrying a slug. And then when he put the paper in you'd
have to back off because you could see it and see that the same card was
coming up...

Mike Caro: So you're saying that sometimes cheaters cheated in Vegas in
those days - but sometimes they were cheated themselves.

William Nirdlinger: Yes.

Mike Caro: Ok, and you were the dealer and what kind of things would you
do when dealing?

William Nirdlinger: I'd carry a slug of cards.

Mike Caro: What do you mean you carried a slug of cards?

William Nirdlinger: Well - say you turn in your hand. Lets say you're
playing 7 card Razz and you turn in your 3 cards and give me a signal that
you want these 3 cards carried. Now lets say you want to beat these people
over here. Seats 1, 2, and 3. If I carry the 3 cards in your order on top
of the deck - shuffle and cut - now you'd know one of their hole cards.

Mike Caro: Was this your predominant way of cheating?

William Nirdlinger: That was the custom way. Another way - lets say I have
John as a partner and we are playing Razz. And what I'd do is deal
normally and he would hold his and to where I could see it. I'd peak the
top card of the deck - or if I had paper, I'd know what was on top. If he
needed the card, I'd burn the second card and give him the top card. And
if he couldn't use it - I'd burn and wait for the next card to come up.

Mike Caro: But somebody was asking you to do this. Some player was
benefiting from it. And it was Sarge, Puggy...?

William Nirdlinger: Well, like I was saying, there were teams - and the
people who were part of the teams would get help.

Mike Caro: Were these teams also participating in collusion - partnerships
at the same time so that they were doing all types of things?

(William Nirdlinger nods his head...)

Mike Caro: Did management ever know?

William Nirdlinger: Yes. Management knew.

Mike Caro: Management did know. So you had like a green light to go into
these games? Were there other dealers doing this? Were you one of the
skillful dealers?

William Nirdlinger: There were other dealers also.

Mike Caro: So what size of games and or what casinos were these things
occurring?

William Nirdlinger: The Dunes at the time. The smallest big games say
$50-$100.

Mike Caro: So $50-$100 and up - they would bring in dealers. What level of
card room management knew about this?

William Nirdlinger: The card room manager - floor men...

Mike Caro: Who was the card room manager of The Dunes at that time?

William Nirdlinger: (audio quality prevented me from hearing this answer.)

Mike Caro: Were you there when Chip Reese had the room?

William Nirdlinger: No, I left Vegas in 75. But I was kept informed about
what was going on over there.

Mike Caro: And you've been involved in some other things since. You've
been arrested - for what?

(William Nirdlinger goes on to talk about his arrest/involvement in an
illegal gambling operation on the east coast. He was charged with
Interstate Gambling. He compared the experience to the move Donny Brosco.
The audio quality was poor thus preventing me from getting a word-by-word
account of his statement. From what he has stated, this what I was able to
gather from it.)

Mike Caro: We'll get back to you and we are going to work up to what is
going on today -- which is probably what we are concerned about. But I
want to get some more background. We are going to go over to John now.
What would you say in brief - what would you say about if there are any
dangers of being cheated in poker? How clean poker is relative to what it
used to be. What your experience has been and what your position was.

John Martino: I moved to Las Vegas, Nevada when I was 23 years old. From
day one, I was around cards all my life - since I was 10 years old. My
first job was at the Fremont Casino. Every casino that I worked in, I did
some form of cheating -- cheating the players.

Mike Caro: But those were pretty small games at the Fremont.

John Martino: Well, I'm taking you back to the beginning.

Mike Caro: So that is how you started?

John Martino: Yes, that's how I started in Las Vegas. And then from the
Fremont I went to the Horseshoe where I dealt at the World Series of
Poker, which was very small at that time. I was also a center dealer and I
did..

(Mike Caro cuts John off...)

Mike Caro: Center dealing - meaning you could take and deal a card out of
the center of the deck?

John Martino: No...No...A stationary dealer. I'm sorry.

Mike Caro: Stationary dealer - meaning part of a shift which has nothing
to do with the manipulation of cards because center dealing is a type of
dealing.

John Martino: I was a dealer for the house, which I had people I would
give hands to and put in a cold deck - which is a deck that was already
fixed.

Mike Caro: So when you say for the house - does that mean you were working
for the house and doing the cheating independently or did they know about
it?

John Martino: I needed a floor man to do this - to bring in the cards so
that I could do it. I would have a partner - the floor man and I would
have a partner in the game who we would deal hands to at different times.

Mike Caro: And the floor men knew about this but not necessarily the top
management of the room?

John Martino: Not at that time. But also back in those days there wasn't a
restriction on how much you could take from the pot and I was very good a
stealing money from the people for the casino. That is one reason I got
the job. It was a snatch game.

Mike Caro: And at that time, management approved of you doing this?

John Martino: Correct. However, I would not only steal money for the
casino, but money for myself and the floor man as well.

Mike Caro: But John, that wasn't necessarily illegal at the time...taking
money out of the pots?

John Martino: Correct. But bringing in the....we would make $200-$300 a
shift instead of the $40-$50 in tokes and that was a lot of money back in
those days. And from that I went to the WSOP and it was very small and
there were people and floor men that I'd work with.

Mike Caro: Lets jump now to what is going on today and then we'll get all
the information you have in between there. What is happening today in
poker? How clean are the games? What do we have to worry about?

John Martino: Its never changed. It just got to higher limits. The same
people are doing it now that were doing it back in 1975. I worked at The
Dunes also in 1975 for approximately 2 years. And I worked with the floor
people and people who had teams. We had the green light to do anything we
wanted to do.

Mike Caro: Anybody can add anything now that I have a little bit of each
of you on tape. Like I said before - don't worry about cutting in when you
have something to add.

Russell Georgiev: Yes...

(Mike Caro cuts Russ off...)

Mike Caro: What big games in particular are not safe now?

John Martino: Well anything above $100-$200 is either scammed, marked
cards - when I say scammed - I mean collusion of 4 or 5 players or
sometimes there is just one live person in the game playing.

Mike Caro: Do you think that is true everywhere or?

John Martino: I think its true in Nevada. In California, I'm not around
California. But in the casinos in Nevada the same people playing now were
the same people playing in 1975 when I dealt. We had the green light to do
anything we wanted.

Mike Caro: Are there any dealers now dealing to these people that are not
legitimate?

John Martino: Yes, in the Bellagio. This is what I heard. This is second
hand but just 3 days ago I was in Las Vegas and I heard they hand cuffed 3
dealers from the poker room. I don't know this 100% but this was told to
be by somebody. I don't know if this is true information.

Mike Caro: But that could be just rumor.

John Martino: This could be misinformation too.

Mike Caro: Does any one of you know anything specifically that is going on
in the big game?

Russell Georgiev: Yes.

Mike Caro: What?

Russell Georgiev: This is second hand information also. In The Bellagio,
in the big game, it's the same people. I was run out of Las Vegas
approximately 1970. I used to play there in the biggest game. At that time
I had more money than any one of these Poker Gods, which they didn't want
to play. At that time they tried to cheat me any possible way they could.
At that time, my eyes were really good. I was very alert. I stopped them
from cheating me - ok? They would cold deck me. I would get up, wait for
them to deal and then pass the cards. Finally, I had chips stolen from me
at the Horseshoe. Somebody would come by and take a stack of black chips
while I was in the middle of a pot. I'd call security and nothing would be
done. They would say, "Would you like to carry a report?" and "Who was
it?" It was like a message that said to me - "Get out!" That is why I'm a
pretty well known player. That is why I do not play in Vegas. I was told
back then, it was like I was given the thing - Do not play in Vegas and
you cannot play honestly. Since I've started playing poker from day one I
have learned that you cannot play honestly and get to the highest level
here. Once you get to a certain level, you are cut off, you are snipped
right there. It doesn't matter how good you are or how bad you are. You
can never reach the highest pinnacle. What stops you here is - Who's got
the juice? Who's got management on the payroll?

Mike Caro: Ok, but that is all very general, Russ. What I need from any
one of you is who do you know? Who have you had contact with? Who do you
specifically know has in the past cheated or facilitated cheating? Do you
know of anyone?

Russell Georgiev: We know....here. Andy Cessino in California. I dealt...I
personally dealt with Andy Cessino. I dealt with Bob M. I dealt with Bob
Fister. I dealt with Skinny Lee. I dealt with Tom Foley.

Mike Caro: What do you mean dealt with? You were...

Russell Georgiev: When I dealt with them, that means we had deals. Deals
where we cheated. It was an ongoing criminal scam or an ongoing cheating
scam.

Mike Caro: You were apart of these groups?

Russell Georgiev: I was part of these groups.

Mike Caro: What about the games? What I'm interested in now is the games
today. Who is not clean today?

Russell Georgiev: Who is not clean today? Well, the question is, who is
clean today? You're asking the wrong question. You're asking who isn't
clean? You should be asking who is clean.

Mike Caro: Well, give me some examples. We were talking the other day
about The Bellagio. Do you know of anything going on at the Bellagio?
Bill, do you know anything?

William Nirdlinger: The last thing I heard was that, again this is very
good information -- someone we know who is friends with Howard Lederer -
or - Howard Lederer is staking. Howard Lederer told him not to be playing
at the Commerce because he understands that the games there are being
scammed. The man he was staking felt that he was cheating and Howard said,
"Well, I was cheated for quite awhile at The Bellagio." - Then Howard said
to him, "It really sucks doesn't it?"

(Russell Georgiev cuts in...)

Russell Georgiev: Lets stop the facade we have and just start naming names.

Mike Caro: Well, you're not telling me anything you haven't already told
me in the meeting.

Russell Georgiev: Ok...here. Basically, everybody is involved. Jerry
Stenarude at the Commerce is as crooked as you can get, as crooked as a
corkscrew. He doesn't want me in there because I can put 2 and 2 together.
I can see who is playing in what game and who is scamming what game.
California is basically my home turf. The cheating element is basically
like The Mafia. You are never supposed to say anything. Its like never
wise up a sucker.

Mike Caro: Ok. John, yesterday you told me something about a Card Player
Cruise that involved something. You wanna...

John Martino: It was a Card Player Cruise. I don't remember exactly what
year. But I went on a cruise and we had an agreement between myself and
James Shahady - myself and George Levine. James Shahady had an inside with
Donna Harris and Doug Dalton to bring marked cards on the cruise because
they had went on previous cruises in which I wasn't involved. I went on
the cruise and George Levine said he didn't want to cut the money 3 way
and I went on the cruise and got completely cut out. But Doug Dalton from
The Dunes - I was a player before I was a dealer at The Dunes. I made alot
of money in Las Vegas and I inherited alot of money and I was also cheated
myself. You know, in different games which....

Mike Caro: Who were you able to deal with when you were cheating?

John Martino: When I was cheating? I dealt with, when I worked at The
Dunes?

Mike Caro: Yes.

John Martino: We had the floor men; Chip Reese was there at the time. Eric
Drache was there at the time.

Mike Caro: Do you know anything about either Eric or Chip Reese that would
be uh...

John Martino: Well I dealt to Chip Reese before I went to The Dunes at the
Horseshoe. Two different times I did business with him.

Mike Caro: When you say you did business, what do you mean?

John Martino: I gave him hands. I gave him 3 of a kind playing 7 card
stud. Two different times and heů

Mike Caro: You were compensated?

John Martino: He gave me hundred dollar bills.

Mike Caro: What about Eric Drache. What do you know about him?

John Martino: Eric Drache, from day one at the Golden Nugget he conspired
with many high-limit players. He let James Shahady beat one person, I was
there watching, John Joseph, a very wealthy guy from Texas out of $120,000
to $150,000 at one of the tournaments at the Golden Nugget, right in the
center pit. And they also had surveillance, they had the head of
surveillance, no, he wasn't the head of surveillance then, he's the head
of surveillance now at the Bellagio and the Mirage, it was Steve Koenig.
He worked at the Golden Nugget and had 2 security guards posted behind the
2 players because John Joseph wanted to play in the center - that was the
only place to play. They were playing heads up. They were playing a 6 card
rummy game. It was like a joke. James Shahady had a shiner, a mirror on
his hand to see what was dealt and I think Eric Drache had %25 of that
action. This is just one incident.

Mike Caro: Well, can you give me anymore you know of Eric Drache being
involved?

John Martino: Well, when the Mirage first opened, for the first 14 months,
Eric was card room manager for James Shahady and they ran the thing for
the first 14 months. Until myself and James Shahady - there was another
incident where we played private and I didn't - I was supposed to get a
percentage of the win and he gave me nothing. After 14 months, he had me
barred from the Mirage just for knowing what was going on. For the first
14 months he had games with marked cards and teams just like here in
Gardena.

Mike Caro: Who knew about this?

John Martino: It was like a 3 rink circus - it was like a laughing stock
in Las Vegas.

Mike Caro: Did Bobby Baldwin know?

John Martino: Well, this is what I said to Steve Koenig, the head of
security and then I couldn'tůhe would never answer a call because I'm sure
he'd have to be a complete idiot. Everyone in Las Vegas knew about it. The
marked cards you could see from 2 tables away.

Mike Caro: This Koenig guy you say is the head of security at both the
Bellagio and the Mirage?

John Martino: The Bellagio and the Mirage - that's correct. And he worked
at the Golden Nugget when he was on both James's and Eric's payroll.

Mike Caro: Most casinos are able to scramble audio signal. You told me
something yesterday about hidden cameras and being able to broadcast out
into the parking lot and then back. Who knows most about this? Anyone?

Russell Georgiev: We all know something about thatů

Mike Caro: Go ahead Bill. You've been involved in that personally?

William Nirdlinger: Yes.

Mike Caro: How does that work?

William Nirdlinger: How it works is you have a camera, you'd go in there.
It's a concealed camera. The camera projects the image of the card either
from underneath when the dealer deals the card off the top of the deck.
(Deals in mid-air emphasizing the angle at which the cards come off the
deck) You could have the camera mounted in my sleeve so it can see the
bottom of the card. Now that is transmitted back to someone on a screen, a
monitor.

Mike Caro: Where is that someone?

William Nirdlinger: Well, that someone could be across the street or in a
car in the parking lot.

Mike Caro: Were you the person in the parking lot you said earlier?

William Nirdlinger: Yes.

Mike Caro: Ok, so you've done that and you've seen that and then what
would you do?

William Nirdlinger: I would have a walkie-talkie and the other person
would have an earpiece in their ear that is smaller than a hearing aid and
you'd transmit back to them what was dealt. Player 1 - ace, another ace. A
pair of aces.

Mike Caro: So you've done it?

William Nirdlinger: Yes.

Mike Caro: So this takes the cooperation of what, who has the camera
usually?

William Nirdlinger: One of the players or someone who is sitting with the
player.

Mike Caro: Now, these cameras are very small?

William Nirdlinger: Very small.

Mike Caro: How small?

William Nirdlinger: Pinpoint.

Mike Caro: So they are worn on clothing?

Russell Georgiev: Yes or you can put them on a purseů.

Mike Caro: Where?

Russell Georgiev: You can put them on a purse or something. They tried to
cheat me 2 years ago in Crystal Park with the camera and the microphone.

Mike Caro: Who tried to?

William Nirdlinger: I did.

Russell Georgiev: He did. But he was working along with a team.
Fortunately, I knew they had descent jamming devices and their equipment
was not state of the art.

Mike Caro: When you say jamming devices, that's what most of the
sophisticated big casinos in Las Vegas have right? There have been
allegations - you've told me this and I'll let you tell me this again but
there may be something that's been done at the Bellagio in this regard.
How would that get past the jamming devices?

Russell Georgiev: Here, this is howů

(William Nirdlinger cuts inů)

William Nirdlinger: Management turning off the jamming devices.

Mike Caro: Well, who would do this?

Russell Georgiev: Head of security.

William Nirdlinger: Whoever is in charge.

John Martino: Steve Koenig.

Mike Caro: Steve Koenig wouldů

John Martino: He's the boss of theů

William Nirdlinger: You could even make something up like its not working
properly andů

(Mike Caro cuts inů)

Mike Caro: Do you have any reason to believe that this Steve Koenig is
nothing but ethical?

John Martino: Well, yeah. Yes I do. I also at the time after I was barred
from the Mirage, I was in contact with 2 gaming commission people. At two
different times I gave the gaming commission marked cards that they were
using at the Mirage at that time. They went in 4 different times and
confiscated boxes of cards, not being used, but on the shelves. They would
take them to the gaming commission. They found the marks - exactly the
same as the cards that I gave them because I know who was doing them which
was James Shahady and about 10 other people.

Mike Caro: So the gaming commission, they did come in and confiscateů

John Martino: 4 different times.

Mike Caro: And then what happened?

John Martino: It was squashed.

Mike Caro: Why?

John Martino: Why? Because Steve Wynn and Bobby Baldwin and Eric Drache
didn't want the publicity.

Mike Caro: Well, but doesn't the gaming commission act independently fromů

John Martino: Evidently they have power over the gaming commission. This
is 100% - what I'm telling you. And I just thought that the gaming
commission was crooked until I met you, I felt that nobody cared more or
less what was going on. You know in Las Vegas from the 70's until now.
They just had the power then. They had the Binions. They had Jack Binion
when he was there. He was apart of this also.

Mike Caro: Has any of you had any experience with any member from the
gaming commission that you know about either past or present that has not
been up and up?

John Martino: Well, right after the incident - I had a couple of
instances. I had a different incident with the gaming commission. But it
was - The FBI was doing an undercover FBI sting. I think the name was
Matty Marcus. Some gaming commission officer which I gave, his name was
Gary Cooper. I gave him information to and I also gave him money to help
me out with an incident that I had gotten in trouble with in Las Vegas and
I was very well helped out. I got 100% immunity and also, that gaming
commission officer was prosecuted and fired.

Mike Caro: Ok, you've talked to me about that before, but not on this
tape. You're referring to a marker scam?

John Martino: A marker scam was at the Golden Nugget in 1984ůin 83.
Between 1983 and 1985, somewhere in that vicinity. I'm not sure of the
dates, but it is common knowledge.

Mike Caro: Do you think there is any chance that some of these big games
are legitimate and that all of this is just rumor?

Russell Georgiev: No chance. No chance whatsoever. Its 100% that the big
games are crooked. 100%.

William Nirdlinger: You might walk in on a big game right now that isn't
being scammed, but there is a team that is scamming that game. Maybe not
right now. Maybe not until 10 o'clock at night when they start scamming
but there will be a team of people scamming that big game or working that
game. Like I said, maybe not right now and maybe not 5 hours from now, but
sometime in that 24 hour period. And the weekend ones are really busy.

Mike Caro: Ok, you see, what I'm having a problem with here is there are a
lot of allegations and a lot of suppositions. I need to know what exactly
you know that would be from your experiences that would be regarded as
proof or solid evidence.

Russell Georgiev: Ok, wellůhere. First of all, management is always
involved. Management is always involved. He who has control to the
management basically has the green light to go. They supplement their
income 5 to 6 times over with this. There are millions of dollars at
stake. People are corruptible. We did it in Gardena. While I was playing
in Vegas, I saw it. I consider myself an named player, yet I do not
venture out of the state. I say I want home court advantage. I have seen
marked cards. I have seen them trying to cheat me. I would have to fight
them and I probably would be dead in the desert by now. I came to Gardena,
it didn't matter if I wanted to play honestly or not. You are forced to
play dishonestly or not play at all, or they would stick you down in the
20 game where the low cheats had no juice, no power. But right now, the
state of the art is the sleeve camera.

Mike Caro: Does that cameraůI'll go back to Bill on this just for one
second. You were talking about that and you said one of the ways was to
see under the face of the card. I mean the bottom of the cards. Is there
another way?

William Nirdlinger: By marking the cardsů

Mike Caro: Okůthe cards are marked with a standard daub, or a special
daub, or?

William Nirdlinger: Just an inků

Mike Caro: An ink?

William Nirdlinger: That is only visible through the camera.

Mike Caro: Is this sort of what you would do with contact lenses? No? It's
different?

William Nirdlinger: Completely different.

Mike Caro: So you would need the camera to pick up the markings?

William Nirdlinger: Only the camera can see it.

Mike Caro: People in the game can't see them?

William Nirdlinger: No. With the naked eye you can't see it. Only with the
camera.

John Martino: The camera has a filter on itů

William Nirdlinger: If you looked through the filter on the camera, you
couldn't see through it. It would be like looking at a black wall.

Mike Caro: So then it actually needs to be broadcasted to somebody who
could then see it on screen where it is interpreted?

William Nirdlinger: That's correct.

Mike Caro: And then he radios back in.

William Nirdlinger: He radios back in. Yes.

Mike Caro: And what, they're using an earpiece that isů?

William Nirdlinger: Correct. It's wireless - it looks like a hearing aidů.

Russell Georgiev: You can't even see itů

William Nirdlinger: It's very tiny that goes to the same radio wave as a
walkie-talkie that you would have in your pocket.

Mike Caro: Now this is being used in poker or blackjack?

William Nirdlinger: It's used in poker. It's used in blackjack. It's very
useful in blackjack. You know you get the camera right under that little
lift where they deal out of the shoe, you can pick up the face of the
card. Without the camera, you cannot see it with your eyes because it goes
so fast but with the camera you can slow it down and you can see what the
dealer's hole card is.

John Martino: It is also used in backgammon. The earpiece is also used in
backgammon. In other words, say I'm a non-player andů

William Nirdlinger: Its also used in chess.

John Martino: In any form of gambling or gameů

William Nirdlinger: If you and I were to play chessů

Mike Caro: You could have someone use a computer.

William Nirdlinger: Right, you'd be playing the board and I would be
gettingů(points to his ear as signaling that he would be getting
information from an earpiece).

Mike Caro: You would be playing a sophisticated machine instead of you.

John Martino: You'd be playing the best in the world.

Mike Caro: Grandmaster stuff.

Russell Georgiev: Yeah, grandmaster stuff. They have different levelsů

Mike Caro: So you would be playing like against a grandmaster?

John Martino: A big advantage.

Mike Caro: Lets talk about some specific people and I'm going to ask you
some names. And you're going to tell me what your thoughts are on them and
if you know anything. If Phyllis wants to ask about anybody she can
interject because I'll probably leave some out. Lets start with Doyle
Brunson. Is he generally honest? Sometimes dishonest? Always dishonest?
Always honest? What?

John Martino: I've known him since 75 and with my dealings with him. I
didn't deal in the casinos. I know people that do deal with him.
Basically, what they do is, well, I'll give you an example up to date: A
prominent young poker player - he plays in the game and they win his money
and then he is apart of the team - which is Ted Forrest. Ted Forrest at
this time is placed with Chip and Doyle.

Mike Caro: Ok, was Chipů

John Martino: But back in the 70's, I'm just giving you an exampleů

Mike Caro: Butů

John Martino: That's what they doůIn other wordsů

Mike Caro: Wasn't Ted Forrest an honest player?

John Martino: 100% honest when he came to town.

Mike Caro: So he was honest?

John Martino: Yeah but they break the people because they are honest. And
that's whatů

(Mike Caro cuts John offů)

Mike Caro: Ok, can you give me some other names? You've told me about some
people that have been trying to out you recently Russ. Can you give me
some other names of people who were originally honest that have been
turned out?

Russell Georgiev: Yosh Nakano.

Mike Caro: He was originally honest?

Russell Georgiev: Yes.

Mike Caro: And you don't believe that he is now?

Russell Georgiev: No.

Mike Caro: Ok, well, why do you not believe this?

Russell Georgiev: Wellůbecause you can't just keep losing this money. Now
see, this is a smallůIt's like the CIA for cheating. We have the CIA for
cheating. We may not hear everything first hand, but we're privy to the
documents or whatever newsletters come out. I mean, it is a very
close-knit organization. For 150 years, nobody has said one word. Outside
of the LA Times breaking this story it was hushed upů

Mike Caro: Ok, I understand that but I want toůI wanna get to that but I
want to stick to the names. Has anybody else heard anything about Yosh? Is
it just a rumor or?

John Martino: Well, the games he plays in - everyone is cheating so it's
just common knowledge that he'sů

Mike Caro: Well, who's supplying the money if everybody is cheating?

Russell Georgiev: Doyle Brunson!

John Martino: Doyle is supplying the money but they are beating people
like Frank Mariani, Jerry Buss, Roger King. Roger King, just started
playing a year and a half ago and he's a big loser whichů

Mike Caro: What about Thor?

Russell Georgiev: ThorůhereůThor would be known as a shill. He would not
know anything about it. They would stick Thor in like this where he is
getting 25% or a 3rd or something, or a freeroll. So for publicity's sake,
he'd get what he'd win to begin with because 75% is going back to the
guys. Ok, now, when he gets on makeup. He's got to make this up. So
eventually, he will get on makeup because he spends his money or they'll
bust him. They just don't want to give himů

Mike Caro: But he wouldn't know that he'sů

Russell Georgiev: he would be working with them and not even know that
he's working for them. It's the basiců

Mike Caro: It's like giving him a freeroll. What about Eric Seidel? Is heů

Russell Georgiev: Eric Seidel. Eric Seidel, from what we hear now is
broke. He was being staked by the other faction in Las Vegas: David Grey,
Howard Lederer. David Grey was supposedly on empty a few years back and
its like this: You have the option of going broke or getting your money
back fairly quickly. Human nature dictates that you get your money back
fairly quickly because when you are used to being a millionaire and having
all these vast amounts of money, you do not want to go back to being a 3
and 6 player or something or starting at the bottom. So you go back to the
dark side, ok? Its converts. I used to make converts. They make converts.
It's the way things work. I mean, you break somebodyů

(Mike Caro cuts Russ offů)

Mike Caro: Ok, you said David Grey and Eric Seidel were both honest at one
time?

Russell Georgiev: Yes, they were honest at one time.

Mike Caro: And then they went broke and then they get an offer or what?

Russell Georgiev: Eric Seidel as far as I know is workingů

Mike Caro: Does everybody that goes broke get an offer or?

Russell Georgiev: No, not everybody.

John Martino: Everybody they overcome, Chip and Doyle and half a dozen
other peopleů

Mike Caro: Certainly, they can't bring everybody into this that they break.

John Martino: They don't bring everybody into it, no.

Russell Georgiev: But guys who've been around for awhile for 10 years or 5
years now and played and showed that they have a brain and that they have
the basic functions for being a card player. You know, these are not like
shooting starts. I mean, these guys hung around for a bit. You know,
publicity means a lot to these people. Right now, just for the 3 of use to
come over here, but there are a lot of lurkers behind us. They don't want
to come forward yet because they have nothing to gain just like we don't
have nothing to gain. You know, poker first doesn't want this to be
exposed because it is very bad publicity for them. The cheaters do not
want this exposed because it is very bad publicity for them. So now, who
does what this exposed? I mean, here's a bunch of cheaters going against
cheaters. We are not happy with the situation. We've been shut out. Here,
if I try to play honestly I can't. I've been branded a cheat though I've
never been caught. I admitted it here. I admitted it to the LA Times that
I participated in it. I have not cheated - it doesn't matter. I am still
branded at cheater and the casinos know who the cheaters are or at least
the management knows what going on. I went toů

Mike Caro: How would you stop it?

Russell Georgiev: How would I stop it? Well, you see, it takes a cheater
to catch a cheater. We are privy to who is a cheater and we will always be
privy until we die to who's a cheater because we have our roots. Our roots
are down. My roots have been down for 30 years just like these 2 guys. We
have our roots. No matter what, they can't talk to somebody, nobody can
talk to anybody.

(William Nirdlinger cuts inů)

William Nirdlinger: Cheating in poker. Gambling. It always involves a
conspiracy.

Mike Caro: Who are the honest winners?

(Russell Georgiev laughs out loudů)

Russell Georgiev: They are too small for use to mention. You wouldn't even
know them. We don't even know. Here, you could say Rambo is honest. But he
plays in a game with a friend and they will play 3 handed. They play 3
handed against you. Now Mike, just the fact that you play 3 handed, we're
not accusing Rambo of doing anything, but when you have 2 guys and they
are buddies and they are playing against you - who do you think - why
don't they play against themselves? They wouldn't do that. Obviously,
they're gonna take it easy and - its just human nature Mike.

William Nirdlinger: Yeah, they're gonna soft-play each other.

Russell Georgiev: I mean, its like playing soft in a tournament. I mean,
plus poker itself covers everything up. Mansour caught the Commerce - he
caught marked cards in there. He signs a deal stating "I can't divulge
what I caught." Yosh Nakano, at The Bicycle - he gets reimbursed when they
find marked cards against him.

Mike Caro: What was that deal at The Bicycle? What do you know about that?

John Martino: Well, that was when they had the camera. They had the camera
and the eye in the sky in The Bicycle. They had the camera that you asked
about a couple minutes ago.

Mike Caro: That was a camera? I thought it was marked cards.

John Martino: Well, there was flash that they were playing. There was 2
people playing. It was flash, but also they had the camera there at The
Bicycle at this time.

Mike Caro: Do you know about this because - Phyllis was there. Weren't you
there at the time right?

(Phyllis is sitting off to the right of Mike Caro and is not near the
camera. She is also facing John Martino so if she said anything hear, I
didn't pick up on it.)

John Martino: They had the camera and the eye in the sky at The Bicycle.

(John Martino nods at Phyllis Caro as if answering a question.)

Russell Georgiev: Everybody signed non-disclosure settlements of something.

Mike Caro: So what happened, was there a settlement orů

John Martino: I don't know what the bottom line was.

Russell Georgiev: Here, I myself have seen flash and stuff in The Bicycle.
The code is not to say anything.

(William Nirdlinger cuts inů)

William Nirdlinger: If you're gonna be a sucker, be a quiet one.

Russell Georgiev: You know, its like you're taught this. All you have to
do is look at the move, The Godfather.

Mike Caro: So if you get in a game and you see that somebody is using
flash, you're not going to say anything?

Russell Georgiev: No, I'm gonna read it better than they are. I'm gonna
outplay them. I've run into this occurrence lots of times. You just get
the code down and then you outplay them. I mean, they don't know that you
know. Especially here, there is nothing worse than an old thief against a
young thief who knows what's going on and they don't know what's going on.
They have the stuff down dark enough where they have a tough time reading
it, but the young guys eyes are 100% - or %500 percent better theirs.

Mike Caro: I was told that you could detect flash with reading glasses.
That if you take them and walk to feet from the table and then come into
focusů

John Martino: Well, you put your eyes out of focusů

Mike Caro: Right. So that's what a reading glass does if you are too far
away.

Russell Georgiev: You can detect them butů

William Nirdlinger: You can see it better if you're drunk.

Mike Caro: Is that right?

William Nirdlinger: When you're drunk, you're eyes are out of focus.

Mike Caro: Well I know for a fact - I can name a lot of people who can
detect flash and I can't see it at all. What - is it just a training
method orů?

Russell Georgiev: It's kind of a trainingů

William Nirdlinger: It takes practiceů

Russell Georgiev: There's another form of flash. Its like reverse flash.
It called black line.

(Tape cuts off from Mike Caro hitting a wrong button and then comes back
on.)

Mike Caro: We had a little pause there, we hit the wrong button but go
ahead.

Russell Georgiev: There is another form of flash. Its like reverse flash.
Its called black line. It's done basically in reverse and there's like a
little imaginary black line that you see. But if you train your eyes, you
see that black line. I mean, its just as effective andů

(Mike Caro cuts inů)

Mike Caro: Is that a doctored card that you'd beů

(Russell Georgiev cuts inů)

Russell Georgiev: Yes, it's painted. You'd do it with a solution. You'd do
it with a fine brush. One you do with an airbrush - one you do with a fine
brush. You don't have to do as much of the card. I mean, it's easy to get
the cards in. Nobody is gonna see them. I mean, basically, management
covers up. Management has always been involved. Management does not want
the bad publicity.

Mike Caro: Ok. Does anybody know anything that I could take to court about
what is going on in The Commerce, what's going on at The Bellagio and all
these places that you sayů

(Russell Georgiev cuts inů)

Russell Georgiev: The best evidence is no evidence. It's like The
Bellagio. They have their guys. He spoke to (points at John Martino) 2
ex-FBI guys about this.

Mike Caro: What was that about?

John Martino: No, they won't both ex-FBI guys. One was an ex-FBI guy and
the other was an FBI guy. This was just a week ago. I asked him about the
incident at The Bellagio and he kinda laughed and he said in the beginning
there was nothing turned into the authorities about what happened, but he
heard it himself. You know, he heard it on the street about what happened.
But after this, a few days ago, I heard that 3 people were handcuffed and
brought out of The Bellagio but that is just hearsay.

Mike Caro: But wouldn't we know that if that had happened?

Russell Georgiev: Why would you know that? Why would you know that?

Mike Caro: Well, if that had happened and anybody witnessed it at all it
would beů

Russell Georgiev: Did you know about when Mansour caught them with marked
cards at The Commerce? Did you know about when Yosh Nakano got reimbursed
for his money when he was being cheated at The Bicycle? Do you know about
that? Do you know about any of these? Do you know about the scandal with
James Duang right now at The Bicycle?

Mike Caro: No, what's that one?

Russell Georgiev: Well, that's in the Chinese section. But I'm probably
not at liberty to divulge any of this either. Every scandal is hushed up.
Nobody wants to hear anything.

John Martino: You asked a question a minute ago about David Grey. In the
first 14 months when James Shahady ran the card room at - in other words
Eric Drache was the manager, but he - in other words, he was like a
"Little Caesar." I mean, he ran the card room. He broke David Grey and you
asked that question a minute ago. So after that, David Grey went to the
other side.

Mike Caro: Shahady was independent of Doyle and Chip you told me.

John Martino: Yes. I worked with Shahady since 1973 or 74 when I worked as
a dealer in The Dunes hotel along with Bill. And with Spilotro to Nick
Simpson to Chip Reese - Al Piero who was the card room manager - you need
people on the inside or a person cannot do all this stuff. You have to
have management to put marked cards in. Management is not stupid in this
day and age. Management knows the dealers that can manipulate cards. I
heard myself that - this is second hand - but I heard it. The incident
where they beat the guy from Texas out of 8 and a half million just in the
last 30 days. I heard from the dealer's father that what they were doing -
now there are a couple of stories going around - but I heard from the
dealer's father that what they were doing - the dealer was killing the
turn and the river. That means, in other words the dealer can manipulate -
In other words, Ted Forrest knew what the river and the turn cards were
going to be. When they were playing 20 and 40 thousand limit.

William Nirdlinger: And when John told me about this Iů

Mike Caro: This was the dealer's father?

William Nirdlinger: I never put much thought into it, but it was a very
simple move.

John Martino: The dealer's father - yes. Very simple move.

William Nirdlinger: All you have to do is pick up 4 cards so that the
second from the bottom and the second from the top would be the turn and
river cards. And if they are playing heads up, all you have to do is put 4
cards on top of that and that is it - you're done.

Russell Georgiev: These are state of the art mechanics here.

William Nirdlinger: Its just one move. One quick move. (He is gesturing
the shuffle while saying this) One quick riffle and then it is set. Then
you can go through all you're false motions and that's it.

John Martino: And that is how they beat that one guyů

William Nirdlinger: And when we were in Vegas, it was 7card stud. So I
never gave much thought to hold'em, but hold'em is even easier to set up
the hands.

John Martino: And deuce to seven. That was - Doyle was playing flash like
Bill said in the 70's. He was playing flash in deuce to seven - they
played no limit. They beat Major Riddle out of millions and millions of
dollars. My percentage was 23% to 17%. It ranged. It always depended onů

Mike Caro: You were apart of that?

John Martino: Yes. Oh yes.

Mike Caro: I actually saw - when Riddle died - I actually held in my hands
the IOU that he had leftů(Mike Caro trails offů)

John Martino: And when Fred Ferris, they called him Fred Ferris or Sarge.
I mean, everybody was - When Spilotro came to townů

(Mike Caro cuts John offů)

Mike Caro: What about Billy Baxter? Is he honest?

John Martino: Billy Baxter? I haven't done any business with him but he is
a businessperson - yes. This is hearsay, but I myself haven't done any
business with him.

Mike Caro: He won all the tournaments at deuce to seven.

Russell Georgiev: Umůhereů

(John Martino cuts Russ offů)

John Martino: Well, at that time there were a lot of marked cards in - I
know that for a fact. I know 2 or 3 of the floor men.

Mike Caro: You mean in the tournaments?

John Martino: Yes. Jim Albrecht. Jim Albrecht ran the World Series of
Poker.

Mike Caro: Are you saying that there were marked cards in at the World
Series of Poker?

Russell Georgiev: Yes. Always.

John Martino: More than you can count on - on both ends.

Mike Caro: In the tournaments?

Russell Georgiev: Yes.

Mike Caro: How do you know this? I never heard this before until now.

Russell Georgiev: Why would you hear this? Why would you hear this? We
wouldn't hear what is going on in the Hollywood Park Casino. We do not
hear what they would at the casinos, but we hear this because cheaters
talk to us. We are the only ones they can relate to the cheaters. Whether
you're in it - whether you're involved - or whether you're not involved,
you still have ties because you've been on the road - you've done this,
you've done that - you've been with these guys. They are the only ones -
some would say, "Hey I got screwed here; I got screwed here. I should get
a bigger piece. What do you think about this? How do we get even with
that?"

Mike Caro: Well, don't you need to have the tournament director know about
this? Or is this done under theů

Russell Georgiev: Well we just told you.

John Martino: Jim Albrechtů

Russell Georgiev: How much higher can you go then Jack Binion?

Mike Caro: Well what about Bob Thompson? Is he honest?

Russell Georgiev: Bob Thompson is an idiot as far as we'reů

Mike Caro: What does that mean?

Russell Georgiev: Tell himůpoints to William Nirdlinger>

William Nirdlinger: He doesn't know anything. When he used to work for
Johnny Moss, Johnny Moss would have him bring in his coolers and he didn't
even know they were coolers. He would just tell him, "Bring me my special
setups."

Russell Georgiev: My lucky decks. My lucky decks.

Mike Caro: So Johnny Moss was setting upů

Russell Georgiev: Oh, Johnny Moss was - here - basically the whole hall of
fame is the hall of shame.

Mike Caro: Well name - who do you mean specifically? Who in the hall of
fame is notů?

Russell Georgiev: Here. Doyle, Chip, Johnny Moss, Slim. Who else is on
there? Maybe Wild Bill Hicock, but we don't go back that far. But the
other ones I mean, here, we either know or have done business with
everybody on that hall of fame. Either somebody directly involved with usů

William Nirdlinger: We haven't done business withů (could not make out
name)

Russell Georgiev: Ya knowůSo I mean, they're sticking Stu Ungar up there.
We're not saying he doesn't belong but the guy - here - this guy grew up
with Stu Ungar (points to William) and Stu Ungar was broke 98% of the time.

Mike Caro: Bill, didn't you say that you were with Stu Ungar the day he
didn't come downů

William Nirdlinger: Yeah, I was there that day.

John Martino: I was there also.

Mike Caro: Ok, well tell me about that.

John Martino: WellůIů

Mike Caro: You were in his room. He was upstairs at The Horseshoe.

William Nirdlinger: Yeah, he wasů

Mike Caro: And he was sick because of drugs and he couldn't come down
right?

William Nirdlinger: Right. He hadn't bathed or he hadn't shaved, showered,
or changed his clothes in about 3 months. I mean, he smelled like a
garbage can. He was smoking so much cocaine that he was incoherent. He
would talk and just stutter. (William makes stuttering noises imitating
what it sounded like.) He just couldn't function.

Mike Caro: You were trying to get him to come down so heů

William Nirdlinger: We were trying to get him to stop smoking coke so at
least he could go down and play and have some credibility.

Mike Caro: Now you said that he did not always play honest. Is that
correct?

William Nirdlinger: Well, Stu was broke most of the time. Even when he had
money he didn't have money but Chip and Doyle would give him money to sit
down and play because it was good advertising. People liked to play with
him.

Mike Caro: Yet he defended his title one year.

Russell Georgiev: That was supposed to be a fix anyway.

John Martino: The first one was a fix, right Bill?

William Nirdlinger: Yeah. The first one I understand was a fix. They had
big bets with Jackie Gaughan.

Mike Caro: You mean Jackie Gaughan has bets onů

Russell Georgiev: No, Jackie Gaughan was booking.

Mike Caro: But there weren't a lot of contestants that year.

Russell Georgiev: No.

William Nirdlinger: But then again, the year of Jack Straussů(William
Nirdlinger walks out of view of camera and his sentence has faded offů)

Russell Georgiev: Jack Strauss's world series. Jack Strauss. Here, I have
direct. This is second hand information. Jack Strauss, when he won the
world series, they dumped him chips and he received chips to stay in
action. This is second hand information from the guy who was apart of Jack
Strauss's team.

Mike Caro: Let's talk about chips now that we're approaching this subject.
You guys have said that you can get chips from almost any major tournament.

Russell Georgiev: Its not that we can get them. They're available.

Mike Caro: And these are actual tournament chips?

Russell Georgiev: Tournament chips.

Mike Caro: Now I know that you brought me some chips from The Bicycle Club
while their tournament was going on and that you put these under an
ultraviolet light. Is that ultraviolet?

Russell Georgiev: Yes.

Mike Caro: And that I saw the polsen marks and that they're legitimate
tournament chips and that they were in use the next day. You also brought
me some from The Horseshoe - Binion's during the World Series of Poker.
And you're telling me that this is widely known that you can get a hold of
these chips?

Russell Georgiev: No, its not widely known. It's just in the cheating.
They just caught Pat Flemming at what - the Tournament of Champions. They
caught him taking chips out. What did they do to him?

Mike Caro: I believe that was in a satellite or something.

Russell Georgiev: Ok, well, what did that do to him? Here, he's welcome in
all the casinos. I mean, Jacků

Mike Caro: Well, how do you use this? Here's what's confusing to me and
probably a lot of other people. But lets say you have a lot of these
tournament chips.

Russell Georgiev: You have a lot of tournament chipsůyou wouldn't need
that many.

Mike Caro: How are they useful? Because the count has to come up fairly
right at the end.

Russell Georgiev: Fairly right? Why?

John Martino: The count cannot come out right. It's mathematically
impossible.

Russell Georgiev: The count is never right. They don't care.

John Martino: It's mathematically impossible. You have a 100 boxes of
chips, correct? And after the tournament, you have a 103 boxes of chips.
Management knows this.

Russell Georgiev: I myself have been involved in a tournament where we
bought 3 boxes of chips. 3 boxes of 100-dollar chips. I was first hand. In
fact, I was the one who purchased the chips. We won every tournament. It
wasn't a large tournament. We won every tournament for about a year. One
of us, or one of our - Either me or a person involved with me won every
tournament for a year. It took about 20 tournaments. It was a weekly
tournament.

Mike Caro: But this can't happen at the World Series of Poker.

Russell Georgiev: Why can't it happen at the World Series of Poker?

Mike Caro: Because the stacks come out correctly at the end.

Russell Georgiev: They never come out correctly. We gave you chips. We
gave you World Series chips before the tournament even started. They're
available. They're available. People haveů

John Martino: Certain people.

Russell Georgiev: Certain people have the chips right now. Here, I don't
play tournaments because I know this is happening. I don't want to be
apart of this. But it is happening.

John Martino: It happened so much when Jim Albrecht was there but nobody
ever hears about it. Do you think they want bad publicity with extra chips?

Mike Caro: Well, all I know is that there can't be a substantial amount of
extra chips in a tournament because at the end of the tournament people
like me know how much shouldů

(Russell Georgiev cuts inů)

Russell Georgiev: Well, you know what the tell you. You know what they
tell you Mike. There is a difference in knowing what they tell you and
what is the real truth.

Mike Caro: Yes, but if I bet - if there is a 100 thousand dollars in a
tournament and my final bet is 55 thousand - or I go all in because I can
only match my opponents 45 thousand. There better not be another 20
thousand left over because it would be obvious to everybody.

Russell Georgiev: We're talking about taking them out. They take them out
early. It's not like the person has to win the tournament. The person can
lose the tournament and use them for the next tournaments. That is
basically the thing that is done. Its like you get to a certain point -
here - if you've got 40 thousand and you've got 35 thousand, it really
does not make that much difference. You take the 5 thousand and you use it
when the tournament starts. Now instead of starting with 15 hundred in the
World Seriesů

Mike Caro: But there has to be approximately as many chips taken out as
brought into a tournament or otherwise things will be so unbalanced that
it would be obvious.

Russell Georgiev: Why? To who?

Mike Caro: To anybody.

Russell Georgiev: It's obvious to the casinos. They know this. But they
don't want to buy check racks. They don't want to do anything for
security. We could provide security easily. We know ways to do this.

William Nirdlinger: It's obvious to you Mike but some people you ask them
what color The White House is and they don't know.

Mike Caro: But this could not happen in a big tournament.

Russell Georgiev: It can't? We can show you where it happens. We just gave
you chips. Before the tournament started. Before the tournament started,
you received chips from the World Series. Now how is this possible?

Mike Caro: Well, I would assume that they take some chips out and they
come up short and they bring them back in another tournament.

Russell Georgiev: They take some chips outů

Mike Caro: Then someone else has to take them out

Russell Georgiev: They just weave them in and out. They leave them out so
they have say 50 thousand. They just weave them in and out as how they
need them. It's like this. If you're getting down you keep adding to your
stackůyou keep adding to your stack. Now you win a pot and you take a
couple off. You understand? You try to keep it balanced at the end. So you
always got them ahead. There really makes no difference when you're 19
thousand or 20 thousand but it makes a difference when you're down to your
last 200 or something. So gradually, you just add so you can make the next
level. When you switch tables, that's where they don't pay that much
attention. That is where you add chips very easily.

Mike Caro: Yeah, but for every chip added, there has to have been a chip
taken out at some point.

Russell Georgiev: The chips are already out. The chips have been out for
years. The chips are already out.

William Nirdlinger: From what I understand, they have been playing with
the same chips at the World Series of Poker since the first World Series
of Poker.

Russell Georgiev: No. From 1984 they have been playing with the same chips
at the World Series of Poker. They've been playing the same chips. That is
why I don't bother playing the tournaments. I don't want - I mean - It's
going on. It's relentless and it never stops. It's relentless. It never
stops.

John Martino: When Stuey won the World Series - you talked about it a
minute ago. On the odds he was 100 to 1. That's why they dumped him the
chips.

Mike Caro: So must have had a big loss then.

John Martino: A major loss. Correct.

Russell Georgiev: I beat Jackie Gaughan on the dog races. His El Cortez
and his Union Plaza used to take very high bets on dogs. Now, I did
nothing wrong. I manipulated odds. I manipulated odds in Florida. I had 2
people in Florida betting the pools down there at the last minute.
Meanwhile, the casinos would book it. I did not fix dog races. I just had
them bet the dogs. They bet 7 dogs and the odds on the dog I bet would go
from 2 to 1 to 6 to 1.

Mike Caro: There was an awful lot of that going on at the horse races at
the small tracks.

Russell Georgiev: Yeah but the dogs. Yeah, well in small tracks. You know,
but the last episode of that was at the dogs with Jackie Gone would take
bets bigger than anybody in Vegas.

Mike Caro: Well, that's why they pay the track odds now.

Russell Georgiev: That's why they went Para mutual. They went Para mutual.
It doesn't matter if they go with track odds.

Mike Caro: I know. That's what I meant.

Russell Georgiev: That's why they went Para mutual. I mean you wouldn't
know this but - here - everybody in gambling tries to figure out a way.
You are not even cheating here. You are just using mathematics. The pools
are a thousand. Now if a dog is 2 to 1 and you add another thousand the
dog will go to 6 to 1 in the pool.

Mike Caro: Who do you know that you would bet your life on or you know
from personal experience. Tell me if you do or that is cheating in poker.
Any names that I would recognize. Lets start over here with John.

John Martino: Well, Chip Reese, Doyle Brunson - it's the same - they
control everything in the high limits now.

Mike Caro: What do you mean they control everything? What makes you think
that?

John Martino: Well, like I said a minute ago - The honest people they
break and they either stay broke or they play for them.

Mike Caro: But, anybody could say that. You could look at the top limits
and see these people being successful and that could be an assumption. How
would I know as an outsider that this is not just speculation?

John Martino: You asked a question a minute ago. I'm gonna ask you the
same question. Who wins playing against Chip, Doyle, and their teams? Who
wins? Does the Greek win that they are playing with now? Does anyone win?

Mike Caro: Well, what if somebody said that is just because they are very
skillful?

Russell Georgiev: (laughs) Skillful?

John Martino: Well, I myself I've dealt to them. I've got paid by them.
So, I mean, it doesn't change, it has just gotten to a higher level.

Mike Caro: That's what I want to hear. So you've had a personal experience
where you know at least at one time, they were not playing honest?

Russell Georgiev: For years.

John Martino: After 1973 when Chip had the card room. He didn't have the
card room. It was Tony Spilotro's card room. He worked for Spilotro. He
did everything Spilotro said.

Mike Caro: Spilotro was involved in that card room when Chip was there? I
thought Chip came in after this.

John Martino: He was just a front person. Chip was his front person. It
was Tony Spilotro's card room.

Mike Caro: So Chip was associated with Tony Spilotro?

John Martino: A million percent.

Mike Caro: You know this for a fact?

John Martino: Million percent.

Mike Caro: And you were there at the time?

John Martino: A millionůyes.

Russell Georgiev: It's common knowledge.

John Martino: From marked cards - they even had the eye in the sky as like
a peep for different situations.

Mike Caro: Ok, you've named 2 people that you say you are convinced are
not on the up and up.

John Martino: Eric Drache.

Russell Georgiev: Eric Drache, Johnny Chan, Ted Forrest, Yosh Nakano,
Jimmy Shahadyů

John Martino: Jimmy Shahady was barred out of The Bellagio and The Mirage
because of the incident that had happened - the confrontation between -
that him and I had. Also, after he was barred, I was barred. I went to
Kevin Desanctus and the second under Bobby Baldwin - Kevin Desanctus andů

Mike Caro: Now these guys told me that the only person that they knew that
from personal experience that they didn't know what involved in anything
as far as the poker hall of fame was Bobby Baldwin and you dispute that?

John Martino: I dispute that 100 percent. He cannot let all this go on and
not know anything. He is not an idiot.

Mike Caro: So you just supposing that he knows?

John Martino: I am assuming because he is friends with him. They use him
for credibility in these large games.

Russell Georgiev: Plus, here is another thing. They just moved this game.
Here, the heat game is down at The Bellagio - ok. Here, we heard this from
several different sources, ok? It wasn't like we heard it from one source.
Each one of us has a different informants of different guys on the inside.
Its like - they hear something. I hear something. Bill hears something. We
all hear it but we hear it from differentů

Mike Caro: Ok, what did you hear about this game?

Russell Georgiev: I heard that Ted Forrest had a sleeve camera. No, the
dealer had a sleeve camera and Ted Forrest had the earpiece in. They were
killing the last 2 cards. The camera, they were being broadcast out. Plus,
we can't say this for sure but we know - well, we can't even say we know,
but the word is that Doyle paid half a million dollars for some new
electronic equipment. Now, if you pay a half a million dollars, it has got
to be state of the art. It's gotta be better than The Bellagio's.

Mike Caro: But Russ, how do you know that actually happened?

Russell Georgiev: How do we know the sun's gonna - We can't prove that the
sun is coming up tomorrow. I couldn't prove it and none of us here could
prove it, but we know that the sun is coming up tomorrow.

Mike Caro: If you had to prove that there is any cheating whatsoever going
on in poker in a court of law, how would you go about doing it?

Russell Georgiev: How would I go about doingů

Mike Caro: What would you point to?

Russell Georgiev: All the experiences, we could get - If we went to a
court of law, markers would be called in and all the cheats would have to
come in. And when 50 of us say we've cheated with Chip and Doyle and
Johnny Chan and thisůHereů

Mike Caro: You just named Johnny Chan. You haven't named himů

Russell Georgiev: Oh, Johnny Chan. Johnny Chan has been barred. I mean,
here, they've caught him. I mean, here, it's hushed up. Oceanside over
here and his group at the Casino Careab. Over in Arizona. There's lots of
incidences with Johnny Chan. Like I told you, IT ISN'T WHO, IT'S WHO ISN'T
A CHEAT!

John Martino: Johnny Chan at one time was honest. But after a point when
he was coming up and winning tournaments and everything, he got very
friendly with James Shahady and they've become best of friends. And he was
just corrupt from that time.

Mike Caro: Now you said James Shahady was not real stable now.

John Martino: No, he is completely on crystal meth. He's got a case
pending in January with the Hard Rock Casino. He was in collusion with one
of the dealers. His pre-court thing was January 18th. At this time I don't
know what happened with that but he was in collusion with one of the
dealers at the Hard Rock Casino.

Mike Caro: But your experience before this was at the first 14 months that
The Mirage was openů

John Martino: He was the boss. Like Spilotro was the boss of Chip in the
late 1970's. It was like a 3 ring circus. It was like a laughing stock.
Like a joke in Las Vegas.

Russell Georgiev: I mean, do you really know of anybody who has gone to
jail for cheating in poker? We're not talking about cheating the house in
blackjack or anything like this. No big name - obviously a little one, but
big names? Do you think poker is cheating free? Poker is the most corrupt
industry there is. The money is right there. Basically, this is tax-free
money. Nobody knows. You even get to cheat the guys you are cheating with.
It's that simple. Yet, nobody is ever caught and nothing is ever done.
It's all hushed up..

Mike Caro: What would be done? What laws are violated?

Russell Georgiev: I don't know what the laws are. But don't be hypocrites.
Cheating is condoned. Just say cheating is condoned on these premises.
Don't say cheating is out. There's a difference. You got the casino
management saying, "Well, there is no cheating over here." There is
cheating over there. Just put it up. Here, it's just like the cigarettesů

William Nirdlinger: We don't even do our best to stop it.

Russell Georgiev: We go along with it just like the cigarette warnings.

Mike Caro: To either one of you who have been dealing. Have either one of
you ever been in a casino where you were afraid of surveillance?

William Nirdlinger: No, back in the 70's when we were dealing poker, there
weren't even cameras in the poker room.

Russell Georgiev: Tell him when you worked in surveillance what happened.

William Nirdlinger: Well, I worked in surveillance at The Commerce.

Mike Caro: You additionally worked in surveillance for The Commerce right?

William Nirdlinger: For The Commerce, right.

Mike Caro: So you've had experience in the surveillance room?

William Nirdlinger: Yes.

Russell Georgiev: Tell him what happened.

William Nirdlinger: I was fired. You have to fill out a report each day
after you finish your shift. What did you do, what happened each day
etc...you had to fill out reports on everything. One day I was - you know,
it's a boring job. I was watching the tile game. One of the bosses came
over to the dealer and tapped him on the shoulder. You know, this is what
I observed. Tapped him on the shoulder. Said something to the dealer. The
dealer just looked at him and laughed and went back to dealing. The boss
didn't move. He tapped him on the shoulder again. The dealer looked at him
and now he knew he was serious. He reached in the rack and handed him a
stack of chips. The boss took the chips and put them in his pocket and
walked away. And in my incident report, what I wrote was true. I'm not
familiar with California rules, I'm only familiar with Vegas rules. But in
Vegas, nobody goes into the chip rack either to take anything out or put
anything in without a security guard and 2 people witnessing it and having
a report. I saw none of this but the rules may be different in California.
So I put this in my report and saved the tape and put the tape in with my
report. A few days later, the manager who got me the job asked me, "Are
you filling out your reports each day?" I said yeah. And he said, "Well,
have you observed anything?" So I told him about the one incident and
that's the only thing I've noticed. And I said why? And he said, "Well,
George Webber came to me and asked me if you know what you are doing?" And
he said, "What happened, did they ask you about it or anything?" And I
said no, I hear nothing about it. So he said, "Well, I'll find out about
that." He went downstairs and it was like a big meetings. "Well, who, who
was the boss?" I said I don't know I had it on the tape. They said "Well
when?" I said it is all on the tape. Well anyway, the next weekend when I
came back from my days off it was like I was being arrested. Ya know.
"Come into security. Put your bags on the table. Put your keys on the
table. Ya know? I was gone.

Mike Caro: So you're thinking that this was the reason?

William Nirdlinger: I can't think of anything else and then they barred me
and I could never get a reason why I was fired or barred.

Mike Caro: Ok, now lets give you all a free chance to tell me anything you
left out. Sum up in any way you want. I'm gonna start with John. And add
anything you're leaving out. Any names. Anythingů

Russell Georgiev: We're leaving a lot out.

Mike Caro: Well, go with it.

Russell Georgiev: Well weů

Mike Caro: This is gonna be a long segment.

Russell Georgiev: No, I know. You see it's hard to remember certain
instances.

Mike Caro: Give me what you know. I need to know what you know.

Russell Georgiev: I've gone up against cheating scams. The best place to
scam or to cheat, even for the lower level cheats is the World Series
because you see, nobody is built in. Anytime, if somebody comes into a
casino - a bunch of new players come in. If they infiltrate. That's what
you call infiltration for a scam. You gotta come in one week and the other
guy comes in the next week and the other guy comes - it takes awhile. But
at the World Series, you can all come in together. It gives you the
opportunity. Yeah well, he's from Florida, he's from Oklahoma, he's from
Michigan, and you can do that. It's like a harvest fest for them. They get
to butcher everybody. The World Series can feed you for the whole year.
There is so much cheating at the World Series that it is like a big
smorgasbord. It's like a bear that goes into hibernation - it eats and
eats and eats because now they're going to go into hibernation. It is the
best place to do it at because it has the highest games. Cheaters don't
want to cheat for 5 dollars.

Mike Caro: This is suppositionů

Russell Georgiev: It's not supposition.

Mike Caro: Do you know of anybody who has cheated down at the World Series
of Poker?

Russell Georgiev: Do I know? (Russ and John laugh thinking about how to
explain this). I know everybody who has cheated down at the World Series
of Poker.

John Martino: I asked you a question a minute ago. Who wins in the big
games? Do you know of anyone who is in the big games? Other than Chip,
Doyle and a few other bigů

Mike Caro: Do I personally?

John Martino: Yes.

Mike Caro: Do you mean honest players?

John Martino: Honest players.

Russell Georgiev: There are no honest players - that win.

John Martino: Do you know of any?

Mike Caro: No, I know of some honest players that have gone up there and
gotten broke.

John Martino: Does anybody ever win?

Mike Caro: But they will tell you that they are a level above those
players.

William Nirdlinger: Ok, I'm going to give you a first hand story. Now you
say that they played so well - that's why they win. Now I'm going to give
you a first hand one. Major Riddle was playing when I was working there.
He was playing at the Silver City, which he owns. He was the owner of the
Silver City. Tony Spilotro brought all of his people in there. I was
dealing and working the cards. But I'm always in there for 25 minutes. In
between, somebody was in there holding out. Jack Perkins - I'll name
names.

Mike Caro: Yeah, name names.

William Nirdlinger: Jack Perkins was holding out in between.

Mike Caro: Is this the Jack Perkins affiliated with The Horseshoe Club?

William Nirdlinger: No, that is his cousin, Larry.

Russell Georgiev: Larry Perkins.

William Nirdlinger: Now, Chip and Doyle had flash in the game. Now, they
played so well - you say that that's why they win - they had paper in the
game and they were losing. And a friend of ours, we know him had to go to
another friend of John and mine's house to get stronger paper. Stronger
marked cards so that they could see them better because they were losing
their money to Major Riddle.

John Martino: Also, the camerasů

Mike Caro: Did you hear about this orů

William Nirdlinger: No, I was there. I dealt the game. I worked the game.

John Martino: He was the dealer.

Mike Caro: And you saw the flash?

William Nirdlinger: Yes. And they were losing their money. They played so
good that they were losing to Major Riddle. So they needed stronger paper.
They beat him. But they needed everything. They needed the holdouts, they
needed the dealer, they needed stronger paper.

Mike Caro: Names some names of people you think are border line dishonest.
Dishonest.

Russell Georgiev: Dishonest. Richard Schwartz, CK - Crazy Kid, Frank
Hendersonů.

John Martino: There was an incident 2 days ago at the World Series of
Poker. It was on a very small level because CK doesn't have the money he
did in the 70's. He was one of my players that I would deal to. He
inherited a lot of money there. He had credibility at that time. In 1974
his mother died and left him a lot of money so Tony Spilotro and Nick
Simpson used him as a takeoff person. We beat Sid Wymans best friend, Todd
Durlankter out of at least a million and a half dollars. CK was the
takeoff person at that time. But now, he is at the level where he plays 6
and 12. Just an incident 2 days ago at The Horseshoe in Las Vegas. Becky
Binion's husband grabbed him around her throat and was gonna bar him
because there was an incident where he was playing - I think it was 30 and
60 or 50 and 100 and he was sending people over. They 86'd him out of the
Las Vegas Club. Then they took the young kid who was 27 or 28 years old to
the Las Vegas Club and CK was behind him giving signals to Frank
Henderson, which was losing. The Kid had - because Frank was such a bad
player, the kid had 90% of the chips that was on the table. The kid said,
"Richie, sit down and play for me, I have to go do something." When he
came back, Richie gave all the chips to Frank Henderson and 86'd CK out of
there.

Russell Georgiev: Ok, George Hesher, Tommy Hufnagleů

Mike Caro: You said Tommy Hufnagle often played on a square

Russell Georgiev: Well, he had money. When they get broke, they're
hypocrites.

John Martino: Well, Chip and Doyle are known forů

Mike Caro: You said they had a name for Hufnagle?

Russell Georgiev: No.

Mike Caro: Didn't you tell me that Bill?

William Nirdlinger: No, it was just something that I named him.

Mike Caro: But he normally played on the square?

William Nirdlinger: If he has money he will.

Russell Georgiev: If he has money he plays honestly.

William Nirdlinger: If he has money, he doesn't even want to think or care
about cheating. But as soon as he's broke, he wants to cheat.

John Martino: Speaking of Tommy, he was run out of town by Tony Spilotro
because he was drunk and in disarray. He had an alcohol and drug problem
at this time when Spilotro was still in town using his name at the Sayer
hotel. He had to leave town for over a year because Tony got really upset
because he was working for Tony at the time. And that was one incident.

Mike Caro: Can I assume that someů

Russell Georgiev: Do you want to hear about Ray Zee? I've got first handů

Mike Caro: What about David Sklansky?

William Nirdlinger: David Sklansky was working with Spilotro.

Russell Georgiev: I could tell you about Ray Zeeů

Mike Caro: Tell me about that.

William Nirdlinger: David Sklansky and Tommy Hufnagle were all playing
teams for Spilotro and Mike O'Connor. They were apart of the team.
Sklansky used to help them with better playing.

Russell Georgiev: Tell him what he did to Hufnagle one day.

Mike Caro: Better playing individually or as collusion?

William Nirdlinger: As collusion. Right.

Mike Caro: Did he play himself?

William Nirdlinger: Sklansky, yes.

John Martino: They gave him money to play. It was from 75 to 78.

Mike Caro: But he plays as part of the team orů?

Russell Georgiev: Yes, part of the team.

William Nirdlinger: Yes. He played as part of the team. But he was also
very instrumental in making the score even better.

Mike Caro: Oh yeah, you told me a story once about Spilotro and Sklansky.

William Nirdlinger: Right. Yeah.

Mike Caro: Tell us that story.

William Nirdlinger: Sklansky called Mike O'Connor and Spilotro up and told
them that Tommy was drunk and that his play you know and some of the
mistakes that he made is costing him 1.3% of the play and that they should
get Tommy out of the game. And you know, Tommy was having a rush of cards
and was winning all the money.

Russell Georgiev: You wanna hear about Ray Zee? I've had first hand
encounters with him in the early 70's. You know, Ray Zee and I traveled
the sameů

(Mike Caro cuts Russ offů)

Mike Caro: Well, are you going to tell me something that you know for
sure?

Russell Georgiev: For sure. Here, I played Ray Zee. We met and tried to
cheat each other. We tried to cheat each otherů

Mike Caro: Ray Zee is usually quoted as being one of the honorable people.

Russell Georgiev: Well, he's usually quoted. That's ok. Now, the bubble is
burst. Ray Zee - well, my name is Seattle Russ. That meant I traveled
Oregon and Washington. I am a name up there. Now, on the west coast, Ray
Zee was setup in southern Oregon around Medford. He had a game in a hotel
or he was cheating that game in a hotel. Anyways, I went in there and they
were cheating; the dealer was involved. I played in the game but I didn't
play in the game because at that time I was doing my thing and they were
doing their thing. But I saw Ray Zee. That was just one of the few
occurrences that I had with Ray Zee. Later, Ray Zee and I batted heads
against each other. This was in the early 70's. We happened to run into
each other in a tavern. So we played heads up. The first time I had just
been coming back from where I had blown some money on dice in Vegas. So
the owner of the bar, didn't like Ray Zee so he gave me 5 thousand - which
I lost it to Ray Zee. Anyway, I came back down the next week with 25
thousand. I busted Ray Zee. See, we were both trying to see if we could
get away with this or get away with that. I had marked cards at that time
and so did he. We were both trying to get our cards in because we have
different codes. Anyway, we had neutral cards. I annihilated Ray Zee and
for humiliation I gave the bartender a hundred dollar bill to post up at
the bar in the event that Ray Zee wants to play me again on an even court,
I'll send a taxi for him. I met up with Ray Zee again. He was in Lake
Tahoe. Ray Zee used to sit to the left or right of the dealer and the
dealer would show him what the flop was. Basically, the dealer would flip
the cards up so that he could see them.

Mike Caro: Was he deliberately showing them or?

Russell Georgiev: Yes, deliberately. Basically, Ray Zee had - Ray Zee was
in the card room. I forgot which casino it was up in Lake Tahoe, but Ray
Zee was parked there. Plus, now in Montanaů

John Martino: It was Caesar's Tahoe.

Russell Georgiev: Caesar's Tahoe. Yeah.

Mike Caro: You knowů

John Martino: I used to go up there and play at that time.

Mike Caro: Do you know anything about Ray Zee?

John Martino: Well, just what Russ is saying. I know that he was
conspiring with some dealers.

Mike Caro: You guys told me something. Lets go to another topic hereů

(Russell Georgiev cuts inů)

Russell Georgiev: I've got a bunch of stories about Ray Zee because we
used to travel the same circuit. He was in Montana. I was in Montana.
Billings.

Mike Caro: Did you say something - I want to get something before I forget
it and I think that maybe this was Bill that talked about this or maybe
you did Russ - that both Jack McClelland and Jim Albrecht had been
involved in some other instances that they have been involved with prior
to their involvement in poker.

(Russell Georgiev points at William Nirdlingerů)

William Nirdlinger: Yeah. They were both using The Jackpot Casino in
Sahara. And the men who owned the Jackpot Casino. It was a young man whose
family had a lot of money down in Florida and I guess his family just
bought him a casino. And then everybody would go in thereů (The audio
quality got so bad at this point that I was unable to understand the rest
of his statement. It is almost as if he is mumbling.)

Mike Caro: Didn't you say that there was some kind of police issue or an
arrest issue at some point with one of those 2?

John Martino: Caesar's Palace. This was Jim Albrecht before he got
involved in poker. He switched a whole shoe at Caesar's and got the money
and got away with it. He was a personal friend of mine which was Mike
George who is dead now. But they got away with itů

William Nirdlinger: There was a lot of heat.

Russell Georgiev: Hal Walling knows about this because he mentioned it. He
mentioned it and he was surprised that we knew about it but believe me, we
know about everything. And if this segment of the branch doesn't know
about it, our second segment knows about it.

John Martino: You asked me about Bobby Baldwin a minute ago. Bobby
Baldwin, when I had the marker scam after - I went to the gaming
commission first because John Spilotro told me the guy to go see. Which,
give him some money and he said one way or another, you'll be protected -
which I did. Then the gaming commission told me to go talk to Bobby
Baldwin and Mark - I can't think of his last name, but he's the head of
Treasure Island now. He's from New York. Well, I went with Bobby Baldwin
and we sat down and talked and then he sent me back home with the same
gaming officer that sent me to him. And he said, "you're gonna get 100
percent immunity." Which the gaming officer told me. It will never go to
court. Which it did. It made me look very bad because I conspired with the
gaming commission. But if I hadn't gone to the gaming commission with John
Spilotro's person in the gaming commission - if I hadn't of went, I would
have been in jail.

Mike Caro: What do you mean John Spilotro's person in the gaming
commission?

John Martino: He sent me to a gaming commission official.

Mike Caro: But that could have been just somebody he knew. You're not
saying that he was working for John Spilotro?

(Russell Georgiev laughs out loudů)

John Martino: I paid 25 thousand in cash. I had a lot of money at that
time. I paid 25 thousand to not go to jail.

Mike Caro: You paid this to who?

John Martino: A person who works in the gaming commission.

Mike Caro: You paid this to a member of the gaming commission?

John Martino: Yes.

Russell Georgiev: Ok, you want some more names?

(John Martino cuts Russell Georgiev offů)

John Martino: I was in Bobby Baldwin's office. Lets get back to Bobby
Baldwin. Bobby Baldwin said, "You don't have to make immunity." He's
telling me to go to the same gaming commission officer I had just paid to
go to him.

Mike Caro: So when you paid this 25 thousand, you paid this under what
pretext?

John Martino: That I would not go to jail. That I was cooperating with the
gaming commission. Which I didn't.

Mike Caro: And they would give you good word.

John Martino: I would get a 100 percent immunity - I wouldn't go to jailů

Russell Georgiev: It's a bribe. It's called a bribe.

John Martino: It would never go to trial. He sent me to Bobby Baldwin and
Mark Spirit I think - No, not Mark Spirit. It was Mark Shore. And they
said just cooperate with this gaming commission. This is the guy I paid
money to who sent me to them to talk to them. They had tapes of 30 days.
The Golden Nugget let myself, Bill Shepard and 8 or 10 other people steal
so that they could get a case against us. For 30 days. They didn't need my
cooperation with the gaming commission. The 25 thousand made me a get out
of jail free card. The judge knew this and it did go to trial - which the
gaming commission lied to me. It did go to trial, and more or less, I had
to take the stand like I was a snitch. And basically, that's what
happened. And then I got a 100 percent immunity and Bobby Baldwin said I
would never be barred out of The Golden Nugget or The Mirage - or any
hotel that he had anything to do with because of this incident. Now, after
the confrontation with Jimmy Shahady at The Mirage. After 14 months, they
had won literally millions. They went to Johannesburg, South Africa. They
went to London. They brought their own dealers. Chip, Doyle, Eric -
brought their own dealers to London. They played after hours there and won
very many millions of dollars. And I was barred because of the
confrontation with Jimmy Shahady.

Mike Caro: What do you mean they brought their own dealers? To a club or a
privateů?

John Martino: No, they brought their - they brought 2 people that I know
of over to England. After the clubs closed after a certain hour in the
morning, they had their private games in the suites and they have a center
dealer like you would have in a casino.

Russell Georgiev: You think a mechanic is easy to find?

John Martino: They brought 2 people with them to London.

Mike Caro: Are these dealers in Vegas now?

John Martino: No, they are retired.

Mike Caro: Well, how were they able to get those dealers into their games?

Russell Georgiev: They ran the games.

William Nirdlinger: They had private games. They were private games.

Russell Georgiev: They were private games. You're the dealers.

John Martino: After the casinos closed after hours in London.

Russell Georgiev: It was like Larry Flynt's game. The same thing.

Mike Caro: John, who is Mike O'Connor? You mentioned him.

John Martino: Mike O'Connor worked for Tony Spilotro. He was like his
brains because Tony Spilotro didn't know a lot about gambling but he saw
how much money there was involved with The Dunes because of all the
action. So he more or less, Mike O'Connor was his brains when it came to
the gambling and the conspiracies with Nick Simpson. In other words, Tony
could get Nick all the way out. He had to join him.

Mike Caro: Oků

John Martino: Mike, just 3 days ago - this is a person from 1978 we are
talking about. 3 days ago he gives me a call on my cellular and he asked
me about you and what is going on here in California. He said Eric called
him up and was concerned. And I said well basically, yeah, I'm going to go
talk to Mike and whatever you know because I got a raw deal when Jimmy
Shahady had me barred out of there. And I said yeah, I'm gonna go talk to
Mike and I'm gonna tell him the truth you know and I said I don't really
even care. He said, "Yeah, I don't blame you." But Eric called him up and
wanted to know what was going on.

William Nirdlinger: And a few days before he got this call, I got a call
from Eric Drache.

Mike Caro: You're talking about Eric Drache calling Mike O'Connor?

John Martino: In Costa Rica. There was concern about this interview right
now.

Russell Georgiev: A lot of people are very concerned about this. I mean,
this is the first timeů

Mike Caro: Well, I mean, does anybody want it to happen?

Russell Georgiev: I want it to happen.

Mike Caro: Why are they concerned about it if they are not on the other
side?

Russell Georgiev: Well, they're on the other side. Here, the lurkers are
the ones that don't know - the ones that are being cheated. I want it to
happen. Here, you and I have had some debates, but I believe that I am the
greatest player that ever lived. I may be egotistical, but you claim you
are.

Mike Caro: I'm not making any claims Russ. I'm just doing the interview.
You can say anything you want.

Russell Georgiev: Ok. These guys couldn't beat me 30 years ago when I was
young and at my prime. They didn't want to have any part of me. And when
they did try, they tried to cheat me. But I was quick enough then to do
this or shove them aside. I had all the moves. I was invited over there by
dealers who wanted to take these people off anyway. Ok, I'd come over
there. We'd play. I played Shahady when he came to LA. I mean, he'd come
over here to cheat and we'd cheat him. I went head to head with Shahady.
He's cheating me and I'm cheating him. We're talking in the 70's but
things didn't occur - didn't change much. In the Sahara, when they were
playing over there, now I had a match over there but here, I sold a
thousand percent of myself off. It was a 10 thousand dollar match but I
knew I was going to get cheated. I knew I was gonna get cheated at The
Sahara when I went there. But I sold a thousand percent of myself. Ok, so
when I went and cheated there, I stuck all my money in. I knew I was going
to lose the hand. I knew I was going to lose the hand. I stuck all my
money in there with a 7-5 on 5th street against a player that I matched up
with. A couple of people witnessed it - a player who had a 9-8 and I lost
the hand, but I knew I was gonna lose the hand. But, I was setup, but I
also knew what to do. I mean, this was common knowledge - common ground
back then. You want some more players that are dishonest? Sam Grizzle.
Archie Karas.

Mike Caro: But Archie was the biggest sucker of all time is what I heard.

Russell Georgiev: Well, after he won 26 million. He became - here. I'm
God. You know, whatever he did at The Horseshoe. I'm God.

John Martino: He won the money on the dice game legitimately.

William Nirdlinger: I gave Archie cards.

Mike Caro: Did you really? Because I thought Archie was somebody that
everybody wanted to play against is what I heard. No?

Russell Georgiev: Tell him what you did with Archieů (Russell Georgiev
points to William Nirdlinger.)

Mike Caro: Are we talking about Archie, the legendary gambler who will
risk anything against the odds on anything.

Russell Georgiev: Yes. I mean, first of all he is a very good dice
mechanic. Here, these guys know more about him then I do.

John Martino: He beat The Golden Nugget out of many hundreds of thousands
of dollars sliding the dice. This was before he won all the money.

Mike Caro: That wasn't just luck?

John Martino: No. He'd kill one dice. There was a whole team. He had a
whole team of people going around from Atlantic City to all over Vegas
killing one dice.

William Nirdlinger: Then he daubed some cards in blackjack.

Mike Caro: Is he broke now?

Russell Georgiev: No. Becky Binion's husband is backing him. In fact, he
had an offer. I'll play anybody in The Horseshoe the other day for
whatever amount they wanted to play Razz. But nobody wanted to take him up
because nobody knew if he was cheating or not.

John Martino: He cheats along with Jimmy Shahady. He's traveled with Jimmy
Shahady. He knows a lot about the technology now, Archie Karas about the
marked cards and the cameras and everything.

Mike Caro: Well isn't there some new technology available now for a lot of
money?

Russell Georgiev: Yes.

Mike Caro: Just give me a brief overview of what that is and what you
would use it for.

Russell Georgiev: It's the camera.

Mike Caro: Ok, but the markings are what? They are not the same markings?

Russell Georgiev: No, the markings - here - you might as well put the card
face up or face down. It's the same thing. You can put a solution on it.
You could write 8D - 8 of diamonds.

Mike Caro: Is this solution more sophisticated than solutions in the past?

Russell Georgiev: Yes. You can't see it with the eye.

John Martino: You have to have the right filter or you cannot see it.

Russell Georgiev: And it is supposed to dissolve in 4 days.

William Nirdlinger: You have to have the camera with a filter on the end
of it.

Mike Caro: Ok. This is the expensive technology right?

William Nirdlinger: Yes.

Russell Georgiev: This is real expensive.

Mike Caro: How much is this going for?

Russell Georgiev: 25 thousand.

John Martino: At least. Well, it's probably more.

Mike Caro: What do you get for 25 thousand?

William Nirdlinger: You get the camera, you get the lenses, and you get
the solution to mark the cards.

Mike Caro: Well, how many people have access to this right now? Do you
have any idea?

William Nirdlinger: How many people?

Russell Georgiev: Our guess. Probably about 500 people.

Mike Caro: Oh, so it's not reallyů It's really getting out there then huh?

Russell Georgiev: You think 500 is a lot. Well here, a lot of people have
this in their homes. You know, they have it in their homes. They have a
little card room. I mean, that is the best place to do it. It works real
well with the earpiece. In fact, somebody just had to go to the hospital
to get the earpiece out. It got trapped in there.

John Martino: James Shahady was in Alaska.

Russell Georgiev: Perry Green is another one.

John Martino: Perry Green.

Mike Caro: Perry Green was not honest?

Russell Georgiev: Oh! Perry Green is not honest.

John Martino: I've worked for Perry Green in the 70's. In 1976, Major
Riddle came to me. No, I'm sorry, Sid Wyman came to me and I told you how
much we beat his friend, Todd Durlankter out of. Myself, CK and Spilotro.
Son, he said - nothing every happened to me. I was never prosecuted. He
tapped me on the shoulder and said, "Son, you beat my friend out of a lot
of money and I'd rather you not come back." So I just never came back to
work. Nothing was ever done you know. Because Spilotro and Nick Simpson -
you know. So I went to Alaska in 76 to 79. But I came back and forth. I
worked for Perry Green in Alaska. He has places right now in Alaska that
are illegal. That are cheating. He plays Gin Rummy. He has the technology
that Russ was just telling you about. He has that technology.

Mike Caro: How do you guys know who has the technology?

John Martino: People. It's human nature, people talk. People talk. It's
human nature.

William Nirdlinger: We know everybody.

Russell Georgiev: Well hereů

John Martino: People that he does business with. He had Shahady up there 5
years ago and Shahady had the earpiece in. The earpiece was so small, they
had to go the hospital in the next town to get it taken out. I mean,
that's true.

Mike Caro: Has this technology in your best guess or knowledge ever been
used say at The Bellagio?

Russell Georgiev: Yes. Here, what just happened approximately a month ago
at The Bellagioů

William Nirdlinger: There are a lot of different rumors.

Russell Georgiev: It's 100 percent that it happened.

William Nirdlinger: There was a rumor going around that they had a camera
showing underneath the cards. They were killing the turn and river cards.

Russell Georgiev: The dealer had a camera.

Mike Caro: Ok, but you did talk to the dealer's father about this?

John Martino: Yes.

Mike Caro: And he said it was a camera?

John Martino: No. But he said - but they had more than one dealer. They
had 3 or 4 dealers at The Bellagio.

Mike Caro: The father saidů.?

John Martino: The father said that they killedů

Mike Caro: The turn and the river. That's right.

John Martino: And I think that would get all the money in the world. If
you know the turn and the river card. Correct?

Mike Caro: Right.

Russell Georgiev: The camera was definitely there. It was a sleeve camera.
The dealerů

(Mike Caro cuts Russ offů)

Mike Caro: When you say it was definitely there, how do you know that it
was definitely there?

Russell Georgiev: We know it was definitely there becauseů Here, second
hand knowledge. Well, I can't say the sun either. We hear from too many
people. It's too many people. It like - if you tell Phyllis to tell
somebody outside that its gonna be like this. Mike just said it like this.
Unless Phyllis is lying - I mean they can't be lying because we get it
from different sources. It's not the same individual. I mean, we were
talking to Doug Dalton. We personallyů

(Mike Caro cuts Russ offů)

Mike Caro: What do you know about Doug Dalton? Anything?

Russell Georgiev: Tell him what you know about Doug Dalton.

John Martino: I dealt with Doug Dalton before I was even a dealer at The
Dunes Hotel. Doug Dalton used to work on the floor with Johnny Moss and Al
Pierre. He worked for everybody. All we'd have to do it give him a hundred
dollars and he would put in a box of marked cards anytime we wanted him
to. He would work with meů

(Mike Caro cuts John offů)

Mike Caro: Do you have personal knowledge of him ever putting in a marked
deck?

John Martino: Probably 20 times. 20 incidences - yes. There is a guy that
is running a major card room in Las Vegas.

Mike Caro: What about Donna Harris?

John Martino: Donna Harris brought marked cards in on the cruise for Jimmy
Shahady and Mr. Levine. She alsoů Do you want me to tell you the story
aboutů

(Russell Georgiev cuts inů)

Russell Georgiev: Tell himů Tell himů

John Martino: Frank Watson. Frank Watson was a high limit player. I think
he played here at your casino at different times when Eric had to borrow
money. He was a very big bookmaker. He hit the lottery in Canada and he
loved to party with girls. And Donna - he was partying with Donna many
times in Las Vegas. This was at The Mirage. You know, he had parties with
her in private. Frank Watson was very generous with his money. He loaned
Eric a hundred, two hundred, three hundred thousand different times. He
was apart of the team when he played there. It made him feel important.

Russell Georgiev: They call this loans. But it's basically, they're a loan
- you owe me but pay me when you can. When you can is when you want to or
when you can, ok?

Mike Caro: Now John, you said you delivered someů Cocaineů?

John Martino: I.. Let's just say an ounce of coke was delivered to one of
Donna Harris's and Frank Watson's party. Correct. That was at The Mirage.
That was about 3 years after it was open.

Mike Caro: Ok, but there was no actual specific poker cheating involved in
that particular incident?

John Martino: Well, I've done business with Frank Watson myself. I've been
to Canada.

Mike Caro: Frank Watson is aů

John Martino: Frank Watson is a player. He's a live player. He's not a
live player, he knows what is going on. In other words, he was just like a
shill. Just like after they break people, basically they make him like a
shill like Thor. You asked about Thor. You know, but they didn't break
Frank Watson. He knew what was going on. He participated. He was like a
live shill. He owes Eric a lot of money.

Mike Caro: Are you saying that Thor knows that there is something going
on?

John Martino: I don't - In this day and age you can't be that na´ve. No. I
knew Thor when he first came to Las Vegas. He wasn't really that na´ve
then, but in this day and age I can't see with all the people getting
caught cheated and all the talk, he can't be that na´ve, no.

Russell Georgiev: He knows he's involved, but he doesn't know what extent
he is involved. This is what happens. People are turned out. I have turned
out many, many of persons.

John Martino: There are different ways of turning people out. They lead
them a half live. A 10 percent live. Even a 100 percent live. When it's a
hundred percent live - they don't know what is going on, but they are
playing for the team.

Mike Caro: So you said that you don't believe that Eric Seidel is any
longer playing honestly?

Russell Georgiev: No. Eric Seidel, he was involved. Eric Seidel is broke
now and he is supposed to be working in Las Angeles. He's given up poker.

Mike Caro: What about Huck Seed? I heard he was an honest player.

Russell Georgiev: Huck Seed was not an honest - He was an honest player
until he was broke and then he was in, but they used him. Let's just say
they used Huck Seed. They staked him. To what extent, we really can't say
because Huck Seed is broke now. Obviously, they used him as a whore. They
staked him for credibility. You stake people for credibility knowing that
it doesn't really make a difference. You give them a hundred thousand to
play with. He's gotta play until you tell him not to and then you break
him. So, it's basically, you're not giving him anything because you break
him. I mean, you can break them at will. I mean, he does not have to know
anything. So here's a few thousand to send you on the road.

John Martino: Another guy. Nobody mentioned this guy. Rod Pardee. He had a
lot of money at one time and was a great 7-card stud player. When he
worked for Jimmy Shahady for the first 14 months, he played for Jimmy
Shahady.

Mike Caro: What about Danny Robinson?

John Martino: Danny Robinson. Here's his philosophy to me. Danny Robinson
probably has more larceny than Doyle and Chip put together. Here's what he
tells me. CK Schwartz was with me when he told me this. He said, "You
know, God forgives everyone. I can go out and screw somebody for a hundred
thousand dollars and all I have to do is ask for God's forgiveness." This
is his philosophy.

Russell Georgiev: His roommate is my old traveling companion, Bob Miller.
He was a dealer at The Mirage. I guess he might have transferred over to
The Bellagio. 30 years ago he and I used to travel in Oregon, Washington,
he was even down in Gardena. He basically worked for me. He and I cheated.
I mean, it was either cheat or be cheated.

Mike Caro: You know for a fact that Danny Robinson has cheated?

John Martino: Yes, he steered people to be cheated. Everybody played for
Spilotro at this time. Chip was just a front person for the card room at
this time. It was Spilotro's. Everyone in Las Vegas knows this. It was
Spilotro's card room. He was just a front person.

Mike Caro: David Hayden or Hyden?

John Martino: He..He..

Mike Caro: He was an honest player right?

John Martino: I think so. I haven't done any business with him. More I
less I was back and forth in the late 70's.

Mike Caro: He played big limit games.

Russell Georgiev: Yeah, but he was staked also too.

John Martino: Does David Hayden play now?

Mike Caro: I don't know.

Russell Georgiev: They say he is retired to Oregon right now.

Mike Caro: Is he?

Russell Georgiev: Yeah. He's retired to Oregon. Probably because he had
enough money just like Ray Zee. Ray Zee cheated his way to wealth. One
thing I respect about Ray Zee is that he held on to it. He didn't have any
bad habits and now he's stopped cheating.

Mike Caro: But you said David did not cheat?

Russell Georgiev: David Hayden was either the biggest idiot in the world
orů

John Martino: He was in.

Russell Georgiev: Or he was involved in some extent because he dealt with
all these cheats. I mean, you can't survive. You're either gonna be
cheated or you have to have some immunity. Say we'll give you a buy or
pass. It's like when you were being cheated in Gardena. I didn't have a
say. It's like a vote. I voted to leave Mike alone. I mean, Bob Miller or
Bob M. used to have a hard one for you when you played in the draw
section. He said, "Hell with Mike. Beat him for everything he's got." I
stayed out of those games most of the time. I played draw poker. Back in
the time draw poker - 100 200 draw poker - it wasn't guts - it was open
blind - raise blind. It was basically a pretty honest game. There was
really no organized collusion in that game. But the lowball games - every
lowball game you could win any money in, they were teams. I made payouts.
I organized. I turned them out. Then Andy Cessino - he's a good friend of
mine. He stopped cheating. He hasn't cheated in the last 15 years. He's
given it up. That's how he made his money and his wife made him work and
hold onto it and he bought The Gardena Club. I mean, I loaned him money in
The Gardena Club. The way it was bought was unbelievable. Jerry Fleckman
at that time and Andy Cessino put together a package with the Ishi
brothers - Chuck and Tack Ishi. And basically, the points went for 15
thousand dollars a piece. Now every rounder or every cheat that invested
in the casino would get a credit line for what they put in. So if they
want a point for 15 thousand they would have a credit line immediately for
at least 15 thousand. So right off the bat they would have front money for
3 or 4 hundred thousand. Plus you get preferred status. Now other peopleů

Mike Caro: Did you invest?

Russell Georgiev: Did I invest? No. I didn't need to. I was going to get a
credit line anyways. There were like 10 of us in that - but I loaned him
money. I had a credit line. I had a generous credit line. I also had
loaned the casino money when it was short. I had players bank under
Russell Able, Russell Baker, Russell Charles, Russell Davis, Russell
Elijah. You just went down the alphabet. One day Chuck Ishi got mad at me
because we were winning and I wrote a marker. So I went up there and he
said well, when he goes broke, you can't right him another marker and I
just had chips coming to me and coming to me and he couldn't figure out
how.

Mike Caro: I want to wrap this up. I've got 2 minutes on this tape -
unless we go to another tape, but I think what we have here is good enough
unless you have anything to add.

===============================
Part 2

Mike Caro: I want to wrap this up. I've got 2 minutes left on this tape.
Unless we go to another tape. But I think what we have here is good
enough. So let's just get a finishing statement. What would you say - an
overview of anything you want to add or left out.

John Martino: I was just going to tell you another incident about Eric
Drache

Mike Caro: Yeah. Go ahead. Do that.

John Martino: Well, like I said, everybody worked for Spilotro and Mike
O'Connor. Mike O'Connor - a few years after - in fact, it was in the 90's.
Mike O'Connor was one of Spilotro's. He ran everything. He was the brains
and everybody worked for him and Spilotro. At this time, he had been in
alot of trouble in the 90's. He got out of jail. He went to Eric Drache.
Eric Drache told Mike O'Connor that there's a really high limit player and
John Martino is very good friends with him. He asked Mike O'Connor - you
know - what do you want to do? And Eric, this is second hand from Mike
O'Connor because he came to me and asked me about kidnapping these two
kids. I said, "Mike, you don't want to do something like that. You know,
everybody always gets caught." So I never thought anymore about it. Two
weeks later, the kid - he's not a kid, Howard Man. He's a very wealthy
contractor in Las Vegas. He calls me up and asks me to come over to his
house. I went to his house. He had two FBI guys there. He had Mike
O'Connor's picture in a little green pinto with two other guys staking out
his house. He said, "John, I know you know this poker player." I said,
"Yeah, from The Dunes when Spilotro..." And he said, "Well a friend of his
was robbing a gas station here in Las Vegas or a convenient store and he
got caught. So he came forth and said that Mike O'Connor is going to
kidnap my two kids. The FBI will not arrest him until he is in the act of
doing it." You know, this is the way the FBI works. He said, "You know, I
don't want this to happen. I know you are not apart of it." Which, I
wasn't apart of it. I didn't want to tell him at the time - yeah, he came
to me and I told him no. But in other words...

(Mike Caro cuts John off...)

Mike Caro: So who wanted to kidnap who's kids?

John Martino: Mike O'Connor was going to kidnap Howard Man's two sons.
This is all...is all FBI...

(Mike Caro cuts John off...)

Mike Caro: This is a written report somewhere?

John Martino: Yes.

Mike Caro: Ok. What did Eric Drache have to do with that?

John Martino: He's the one that told Mike O'Connor to come to me because I
know where he lives and all about it.

Mike Caro: Well that doesn't mean that Eric Drache knew anything about it.

John Martino: Well he told me...yeah, he told me I just left Eric and he
told me to come to you. He says you know this Howard Man.

Mike Caro: Ok. We are at the end of this tape and I'm going to put another
one in just to finish up so we are only going to get a couple of minutes
on the new tape.

(Tape cuts off and then back on)

Phyllis Caro: Can you get some current information on tape?

Mike Caro: Ok. We want current information. But first we want to talk
about John Bonetti and...

(William Nirdlinger cuts Mike off...)

William Nirdlinger: Well, you asked me about that.

Mike Caro: Yeah. Ok.

Russell Georgiev: Like I'm still banned from The Bicycle. But I still work
there.

Mike Caro: Ok. Go ahead Bill.

William Nirdlinger: Phil Hellmuth and John Bonetti came up to Jack Zwarner
while I was sitting there and Phil Hellmuth asked Jack out right during
the Four Queens Tournament, "Tell me the truth Jack. Did you cheat us?
Because, you know, you play so badly and I play so good and yet I lost all
the money and you won. So, did you cheat? Did you cheat us?" And Jack just
looked at them and laughed. And Phil said, "You know Jack, I've known some
players who have cheated in the past, like Puggy, and it makes me sad."
And then we both started laughing and then John Bonetti said, "You know
Jack, back in Texas, I used to play with some guys as a team and we used
to win all the money. So you can tell us. There's no hard feelings." But,
you know, he never answered. But through the grapevine I hear that John
Bonetti was an idiot in Texas. He did nothing but lose his money.

Mike Caro: But he had a tremendous tournament record.

William Nirdlinger: Yes he does. What does that say for tournaments?

Mike Caro: So you think he plays on the square?

William Nirdlinger: As far as I know. Yeah.

Russell Georgiev: Yeah. We would probably give him a thumbs up.

Mike Caro: Ok. Now lets talk about this issue you were talking about Bill.
This was the thing with Tom McEvoy's Tournament?

William Nirdlinger: Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Caro: At the Four Queens Hotel and I'm just going to give you some
background for the camera here and then you can take it from there. There
were supposedly cards brought in inside a suitcase and someone talked to a
floorman. I don't know exactly how it went.

William Nirdlinger: I don't know the exact story either.

John Martino: Jack Zwarner brought a whole briefcase of cards in.

(William Nirdlinger cuts in...)

William Nirdlinger: It was so ridiculous. I understand that when he was
playing, I mean, he actually stood up at the table and starred at the back
of the people's cards. (Laughs out loud)

John Martino: Myself and Jack Zwarner, probably 5 or 6 times put marked
cards into The Four Queens Tournament.

Mike Caro: In the tournament itself?

John Martino: Not Tom McEvoy's previous tournament.

William Nirdlinger: In the side games.

Mike Caro: But in the side games?

John Martino: In the side games. Yes.

William Nirdlinger: Yeah. Side games.

Mike Caro: In the side games. Ok.

John Martino: Many times.

Mike Caro: Ok. But this particular game was for big money?

William Nirdlinger: Yeah. They were playing Omaha.

Mike Caro: But I understand then that Tom McEvoy tried to do something
about it and was not given any cooperation by the casino.

Russell Georgiev: Why?

Mike Caro: I don't know. I'm just telling you what I heard...

(Russell Georgiev cuts Mike off...)

Russell Georgiev: Well it's always been that casino never gives them
cooperation. The casino is always on the side of the cheat.

William Nirdlinger: They just don't want to hear about it. They don't want
the bad publicity. They don't want any bad press.

Mike Caro: Ok. What other things were you going to tell me?

Russell Georgiev: Oh, ok. You're talking about current. Oceanside. You had
marked cards down in Oceanside. Glen Miller's place. You know, just
recently. Ok, you had Mac Fisher...

(Mike Caro cuts Russ off...)

Mike Caro: This was while Glen Miller still had the place?

Russell Georgiev: Yeah, while Glen Miller still had the place. He didn't
even know. I got barred after 3 days for...

(Mike Caro cuts Russ off...)

Mike Caro: Was Glen Miller honest or no?

Russell Georgiev: Well, I would say Glen Miller - I don't think he knew
anything about this. As far as his character, I can't vouch for it because
supposedly he owes somebody $25,000 and has never paid him back. So, you
know, you just go from there. But in that ring, Mac Fisher was one of the
main players. Tony D. Tony D another...

(Mike Caro cuts Russ off...)

Mike Caro: That $25,000 is not something you know. That's something you
heard right?

Russell Georgiev: Well the guy told me, "Glen Miller owes me $25,000."

Mike Caro: But that is only something you heard from a guy right?

Russell Georgiev: Yeah. Well...

(Mike Caro cuts Russ off...)

Mike Caro: Because Glen Miller had alot of money.

Russell Georgiev: He had alot of money. (laughs) Lots of things happen. I
mean, you hear he had 80 million and...

(John Martino cuts Russ off...)

John Martino: Glen Miller had marked cards...We don't know that he knew
there were marked cards in. But a person I worked with in Alaska dealt
down there as a poker dealer and he said that they were terrible. That the
cards were terrible. He told me not to even come around there because I
was going to visit him.

Mike Caro: Well, who was taking advantage of the cards? Do you know any
names or?

John Martino: The people that Russ...

(Russell Georgiev cuts John off...)

Russell Georgiev: I can tell you Oceanside. I was down there at Oceanside.
I played against these guys. But they had flash down there.

Mike Caro: They had flash down there in those games?

Russell Georgiev: Yeah, they had flash down there.

Mike Caro: So who were the names...

(Russell Georgiev cuts Mike off...)

Russell Georgiev: Here, I just told you. Mac Fisher, Tony D., Ray Murray...

(Mike Caro cuts Russ off...)

Mike Caro: Tony D. is not honest?

Russell Georgiev: Tony D. is not honest. Ok, I broke the news to you. Tony
D. is not honest.

Mike Caro: I don't know.

Russell Georgiev: Ok. Well I'm just telling you. Tony D. is not honest. I
told you before - who is honest? I mean, I could name you 10,000 if I see
them. He's not honest. He's not honest. But they are playing $20-$40 and I
can't - my brain is not like a computer. Not even close. But that game - I
went in there to beat the cheaters. I was still in pretty good shape...

(Mike Caro cuts Russ off...)

Mike Caro: So you think that it's not likely that an honest player no
matter how talented is going to beat the largest game?

Russell Georgiev: IT'S IMPOSSIBLE! I don't think it's not likely. It's
impossible. It's impossible.

John Martino: Who do you know that wins? I asked you a question...

(Mike Caro cuts John off...)

Mike Caro: Well, then that would mean that the biggest limit players of
the most prestige are not honest.

Russell Georgiev: That is what we're saying. It has always been this way.
It has never changed.

John Martino: It's never changed since the 70's...

(Russell Georgiev cuts John off...)

Russell Georgiev: It's never changed. Ever.

John Martino: It's just gone to bigger limits that's all. They make more
money. That's the bottom line.

Mike Caro: So if you want to look for the best players, you're not
supposed to look at the top limits because those are the cheaters?

John Martino: Not at all. No.

Mike Caro: But they might also be the best players.

Russell Georgiev: Not necessarily. They may be the best. But you don't
know for sure. But one thing you do know is that they have the most
influence on the casino they're playing in. Now isn't this this a strange
coincidence that you have this thing happen at The Bellagio? Now, Bobby
Baldwin, who never plays at The Bellagio but played at The Mirage...

(John Martino cuts in...)

John Martino: And The Horseshoe.

Russell Georgiev: Now all of a sudden - and The Horseshoe. Now, they get
The Regent Hotel. Who knows where The Regent Hotel is? Do you know where
The Regent Hotel is? (Points to Mike Caro) Do you know where The Regent
Hotel is? (Points to Phyllis Caro) Do you? (Points to John Martino and
William Nirdlinger) We don't know where The Regent Hotel is. Now, here,
The Pipe. We read it in the paper. The Pipe. Now who is The Pipe? Oh, they
like it playing here because they can go up to their rooms - and play -
and this and that. Doesn't The Bellagio have rooms? Couldn't they go right
up there? I'm sure The Bellagio has better rooms.

Mike Caro: So who is playing there?

Russell Georgiev: Here. The Greek was playing there. The Greek is...

(William Nirdlinger cuts in...)

William Nirdlinger: Chip, Doyle, Bobby Baldwin...

Mike Caro: The Greek is the...

(Russell Georgiev cuts Mike off...)

Russell Georgiev: The Greek is the main...He is the roast beef. The roast
beef of the world right now.

John Martino: To Chip and Doyle and Bobby Baldwin...

Russell Georgiev: To all...

(Mike Caro cuts Russ off...)

Mike Caro: This game was not put down at The Bellagio?

Russell Georgiev: No. It was put down at The Regent. We don't know if this
makes any difference, but the card room manager got fired. We have his
name.

William Nirdlinger: Greenwood.

Russell Georgiev: Greenwood. He got fired. We don't know what this...

(John Martino cuts Russ off...)

John Martino: But they're still playing there. They're still player there
after...

(Russell Georgiev cuts John off...)

Russell Georgiev: But as of four days ago, the game broke up at four in
the morning. Now why would you play there?

Mike Caro: What limits were they playing?

William Nirdlinger: 10 and 20 thousand.

Mike Caro: 10 and 20 thousand?

Russell Georgiev: And pot limit or something. They were playing gigantic.

William Nirdlinger: (Audio quality was poor here so I'm not sure I have
the statement correct.) Pot limit with a 75 thousand dollar cap.

Russell Georgiev: Why would you be playing at The Regent? Here. We don't
know if this is true but we have our own little suspicions. We'd be
surprised. We'd make an even money bet that the big game is not at The
Bellagio anymore. We wouldn't be surprised if the card room is not there
in about a year or if it is a small card room. You know, 20 dollar limit
because they don't need this. They don't need the publicity. The thing
that happened at The Bellagio did happen. Is it a coincidence that all of
a sudden they go to The Regent and Bobby Baldwin, who hasn't played at The
Bellagio but played at the other place. But now it's Krekorian who took
over The Bellagio so it isn't Steve Gwyn's so Bobby Baldwin doesn't have
the power he did have with Steve Gwyn. So, why would they pick The Regent?
Here, it only figures for us that it is really easy to get the cameras in
and whatever else you would need. I mean, you need home court advantage.
Cheats need...

(Mike Caro cuts Russ off...)

Mike Caro: Ok. But you're just saying...This is all supposition because
everybody knows that there is a game at The Regent but nobody knows why it
is there.

Russell Georgiev: Well why should it be there? Here, if you give me one
good reason why it should be there, I'll go along with you. There is no
reason it should be there.

John Martino: After the incident where they won 8 1/2 million. There was
so much bad publicity that Krekorian did not want it there.

Russell Georgiev: How much money could you make off one game? What's the
rake off of one high limit game that goes for 8 hours a day? Yet you're
comping rooms for all these players and shuttling them back and forth.
There is absolutely no logical reason for The Regent to have this game. I
mean, the thing is in bankruptcy. They're not going to save them.

Mike Caro: The Regent is in bankruptcy?

Russell Georgiev: Bankruptcy. Yes.

John Martino: It's on Rampart and Charleston.

Mike Caro: Rampart and Charleston?

John Martino: Correct.

Russell Georgiev: Now why would you have this game at The Regent? I mean,
everything you could have - why don't you just move it to The Mirage or
something?

Mike Caro: Ok. Those are interesting questions. Let's wrap this up by
telling me anything you left out. Did you leave anything out?

Russell Georgiev: Obviously, there has been lots and lots of instances
left out because we could probably go on for a week about who's involved,
when they were involved - I mean, just to put 90 years of combined history
on a 3 hour tape. How could that give justice to any tape?

Mike Caro: Ok. One other thing - and you're summarizing now and I'm going
to ask each of you if you have anything else to say. But on thing now,
this is all preliminary to an interview I am going to do on the newsgroup:
rec.gambling.poker. You understand that? I'm going to ask the questions
and I'll publish those under my e-mail address. Then you are going to come
back and answer those questions the next day, same day, whenever you do. I
may ask three separate questions a day. And then when you do, you're going
to quote my answers. I'm not going to advise you in any way about what to
say.

(William Nirdlinger cuts Mike off...)

William Nirdlinger: So quote the question that you ask?

Mike Caro: Yes. So people coming in will know what they are coming into.
Also, I want to have an understanding that I am not going to consult in
any way with your answers. I have nothing to - but I am advising you to
kind of stick to what you know for sure and not tar and feather anybody or
tarnish anyone's reputation if you're not convinced that they...

(John Martino cuts Mike off...)

John Martino: Everything we have said is 100%.

Russell Georgiev: We have not said anything...We've had dealings with...

(Mike Caro cuts Russ off...)

Mike Caro: I'm just saying that. So, you're on your own with your answers.
I'm going to ask the questions and you understand that I am going to try
to do an objective interview? So when you say something and I need it
clarified, I may come back with a tough follow up question. You understand
that?

Russell Georgiev: We just want to say something. It's like this, I've only
known him for a little while. (Points to John Martino) I've only known him
for a little while. (Points to William Nirdlinger) Yet we can trace our
roots back over 30 years. We have known - here - good friends of mine are
good friends of his or associates of his. They go back 30 years.
Basically, it's like this (Russell Georgiev draws an imaginary set of
vertical parallel lines with his fingers) but we have never crossed paths.
(Draws horizontal lines where the parallel lines were)

Mike Caro: Ok. What is your goal in this? What are you trying to
accomplish by getting this all out?

Russell Georgiev: My goal is...here. Let's clean poker up like they did in
Gardena. Let everybody start fresh again. At least it would give me a
chance to where I could at least win some money. This way, I'm limited to
facing all this cheating and all the casino collusion with the players. I
mean, clean it up like it got in Gardena for awhile. Let's get the old
guys out because the new guys aren't that knowledgable. They have to be
taught by someone. If we get the old guys out where they don't have any
power, they can't teach the new shift or the new crew of individuals that
are coming in and it would give poker a chance. I mean, to hide the fact
that there is cheating and that it has been this way since poker has been
alive in California is ridiculous. There is cheating in poker and it has
not stopped. It has just gotten a little bit more sophisticated and been
hidden more.

Mike Caro: I also want to go through...What is your reason Bill for
wanting to come forth?

William Nirdlinger: Well, I would just like to state that ever since you
came out on the Internet and said that you were going to have this
interview, the reaction is amazing. I mean, how people are up in arms
about it - which I don't understand. I don't understand why there is so
much objection to it. But if they are not going to clean up poker, let's
get rid of legalized poker and let's go back to illegal gambling and let's
have house games so I can earn a living.

Mike Caro: What about you John? What is your motive for doing this?

John Martino: Having this interview with you - After talking with the
gaming commission in Nevada and also Atlantic City's and seeing that they
did nothing about it after I told them when the marked cards were there
and after they went in and got the marked cards 4 different times at The
Mirage, I just felt that poker - that nobody cared. But when I talked to
Russ, he said that you really wanted the truth about poker. So that is why
I more or less came. This is the truth.

Russell Georgiev: Revenge. Revenge is a major factor here. We have been
shut out. We have been shut out of playing honestly or playing dishonestly
- it doesn't make any difference. We have a combined 100 years of
professional playing, or we have been doing this for 100 years between the
three of us. I figure that I should be getting a retirement package by
now, you know, if I was in the military or something. Here, they want to
bar me and I'm the last person they should bar. I'm the guy who can catch
them better. I'm the one who organized this. You think it doesn't take
some guts to organize this? I mean, there is so much money against us. I
mean, believe me, they would like to kill us and shut us up. But it is not
going to happen now. They might kill us but they're not gonna shut - the
fact that we have made this tape, they'll have to kill a bunch of us. If
we get killed, we know you will go forward and there are guys who will
take our place right now. If something happens to you, we're still going
forward.

Mike Caro: You say there are other people beside you?

Russell Georgiev: Yes. There are other people. But you see, other people
are scared. You yourself said you had two death threats. Basically, we get
threats in different ways. We get advised. Here, "We don't think that it's
a smart thing to do this." Basically that's the same thing as saying,
here, "Don't do this." John himself has had a contract out on him.

John Martino: James Shahady after three years - or like I said during the
first 14 months, he had complete control. After he had me barred for
knowing what was going on and wouldn't pay me the money that he owed me
from an illegal game, he had a contract put out on me. He paid a guy from
Texas, an acquaintance of his $10,000. A friend of mine at The Mirage told
me that I should go to the police station and put out a threat to life,
which I did, and that would put a stop to it because I named the person...

(Mike Caro cuts John off...)

Mike Caro: Did you file a report?

John Martino: Yes I did...

(William Nirdlinger cuts in...)

William Nirdlinger: And I went and talked with Mike O'Connor to see if
Mike would have it squashed for him. Mike told me he would see what he
could do... (William Nirdlinger gets up and walks off camera. His voice
has trailed off)

John Martino: James Shahady paid the guy $10,000...

(Mike Caro cuts John off...)

Mike Caro: So there is paper work on this if I needed to verify it?

John Martino: Yes.

Mike Caro: Alright. We wanted one thing other than the summary. I think
Phyllis wanted to know about the specific methods of card marking...What
kind of thing specifically could management do to try and spot it?

Russell Georgiev: The best thing management could do to try and spot it
would be to hire us to clean it up. There is nothing but revenge over
here. It takes a cheat to catch a cheat. My thing was defending myself
from being cheated and then making them play honestly to begin with.
That's what I did. These guys (Points to John and William) are state of
the art mechanics. Ever kind of markings and mechanical things - we are up
to date. Plus, we have the information. We know who is involved. We may
not know their names because there are so many players in this game right
now. All we have to do is look at their faces. Plus, we have all the
connections. I mean, anybody you hire for this line of work - You hire a
bunch of cheaters. I know alot of them who have gone to work. But you see,
10 years down the road, they lose their connections. We're fresh. Plus,
nobody has ever come forward to tell you - You've got - Nobody has ever
been involved this deep.

Mike Caro: You're interested in consulting with the casinos who are
interested in...

(Russell Georgiev cuts Mike off...)

Russell Georgiev:We'll make the casinos as honest as they could possibly
be.

Mike Caro: Is that just you? Or is it you as a group?

Russell Georgiev: As a group.

Mike Caro: You formed a company right?

Russell Georgiev: I formed a company.

Mike Caro: What is it called?

Russell Georgiev: Gambling Cheating Analysts. We think we are the foremost
authority on poker cheating in the world. If they're cheating in any game,
you take use there, we'll find out and show you where they're cheating. So
it's proof without a doubt in your mind anyway. Ok. You'll see it on
camera if you're dealing a second. If they're running up the deck, we can
get it. We can get you in - if you think you could get us into some of
these games...

(Mike Caro cuts Russ off...)

Mike Caro: You think the surveillance crews can't do that now?

Russell Georgiev: No. The surveillance crews can't do that. They don't
know what to look for. They don't know who to look for. I mean, we have
never written any books. Why should we? The guys who write these books
don't know what they are talking about anyway. I mean, I could go into any
casino right now and scam the casino. Scam the game. Easily. I could show
a profit.

Mike Caro: You said you could get decks in now...

Russell Georgiev: I could get decks in any casino.

Mike Caro: How would you go about doing that?

Russell Georgiev: How? I would go to somebody in management. I would bribe
them.

Mike Caro: But not everybody can be bribed. So who...

(Russell Georgiev cuts Mike off...)

Russell Georgiev: I know who would be susceptible. I've been doing
business in California for 35 years.

Mike Caro: So sometimes it is high management, sometimes low management.
What?

Russell Georgiev: Yeah. Sometimes it's high and sometimes it's low. It
just depends on where we are gonna do it and how much we are gonna do it
for.

Mike Caro: But somebody who is trying to get a deck in will need to know
who to do business with at that club. Is that what you're saying?

Russell Georgiev: No. Here, first of all...

(Mike Caro cuts Russ off...)

Mike Caro: How would you do it if you didn't know anybody?

Russell Georgiev: If you didn't know anybody you couldn't do it right now.

John Martino: You have to have somebody...

(Russell Georgiev cuts John off...)

Russell Georgiev: You gotta know somebody. Plus, it's like this, they have
to trust you. You have to have seniority. I've got seniority in California.

Mike Caro: Well, could you get a deck into The Commerce?

Russell Georgiev: Of course I could get a deck into The Commerce.

Mike Caro: Could you get - The Bicycle or ?

Russell Georgiev: Of course. Here, I could get them into any casino. If
you don't believe me, why don't we bet on it?

Mike Caro: Could you get a deck in at Hollywood Park?

Russell Georgiev: I could get a deck in at Hollywood. We've gotten, I, not
me personally - There have been decks...Here, we just stated, 2 years ago
at Crystal Park, the decks were brought in. I know who brought them in.
They know who they paid. I know who would be susceptible because guys who
were involved in cheating 35 years ago...

(Mike Caro cuts Russ off...)

Mike Caro: Would people like, Robert Turner know anything about this when
you brought decks into The Crystal Park? Or was he just an outsider?

(William Nirdlinger shakes his head.)

Russell Georgiev: Robert Turner would not know. Nobody would know outside
of this. When they were brought in, it was a low level. A very low level
so it was real cheap and really easy to do. Do you understand?

Mike Caro: How much does it cost you to pay to get a deck into Crystal
Park?

William Nirdlinger: A percentage or...

Mike Caro: Oh, so it's a percentage?

William Nirdlinger: It would cost you nothing but a few hundred dollars.

Mike Caro: So it's a percentage? Small percentage.

William Nirdlinger: Yeah. All it would take is to give a person a couple
hundred dollars who is short on money.

Mike Caro: But in the bigger games, do you think it would be alot more
than that?

William Nirdlinger: No. It would be just a percentage.

Russell Georgiev: It's usually a percentage or maybe a little bit of drug
money. In California right now, outside of the big games. 75 is usually -
The cheats want to cheat where they can make more money and do as little
work as possible so they can take what they cheat the people out of and go
blow it on sports, drugs, or any other addiction that they have. That is
why they have to keep cheating. Cheats have bad habits just like the rest
of the people. It's a vice.

Mike Caro: So what limit do you think - 75 is ok or not ok?

Russell Georgiev: Well, here. 75 games are being scammed with regularity
by somebody at all times. Every 75 game, somebody will be scamming that
game. They don't have to scam it all day long - There are periods in that
game where they are not. But when they move in, they'll come in like this
time. Usually, the prefer to start a game or get there early. But games as
low as $3-$6 can be scammed. It's like Richard Schwartz and CK and Allan
Steinberg. I observed them scamming the $3-$6 Omaha game at the...

(Mike Caro cuts Russ off...)

Mike Caro: But is it equal or is it mostly bigger limits or smaller limits?

Russell Georgiev: No, it's the bigger limits. The bigger limits are the
ones that are the prize. It's like the jewels. The other ones are for like
when you get broke, people will say, ok, you gotta do what you gotta go
do. But the big limits are the games that they want. Now the casinos want
the big games too because each game they get is worth say a million
dollars to them. If they could have a $150-$300 game, a $75 game, or an
$80-$160 game going continuously on a regular basis, that worth a million
dollars to them. So basically, now it takes 4 cheats or 6 cheats - here,
we'll give you the game. I could give any casino any game they want. I
would just fund the game. I would assemble a team, you know, maybe 12
players. We'd weave in and out. We'd have beepers or something like that.
The casino wouldn't dare bar me. All times there would be 4 people in
there. Otherwise, they would lose the game because basically, we are
unpaid shills. We get our money from beating the players. So basically,
the casino is getting 4, 5, maybe even 10 props that the casino is not
paying. So the casino goes for this. In return, we get to scam the
players. Now this is done with regularity anywhere you want to go. I mean,
it helps to have home court advantage.

Mike Caro: Bill, any closing statements? Anything you left out?

William Nirdlinger: No. It's pretty much covered.

Mike Caro: What about you John?

John Martino: No, unless you want to ask anymore questions about certain
people.

Mike Caro: Can you think of anyone specifically that you have ever
wondered about?

(Phyllis Caro says something here. She is sitting to the left of Mike Caro
behind the camera and it is nearly impossible for me to make out what she
is asking/stating. You should use the answers to her questions/comments to
try and infer what was said.)

Russell Georgiev: I'd know if I see them. I don't know their names.

(At this point, Russ is looking at Phyllis Caro and giving her a thumbs
down.)

Russell Georgiev: Danny Dang. (Russ gives another thumbs down)

Mike Caro: What happened?

Russell Georgiev: Tony Ma. (Russ gives another thumbs down)

Mike Caro: Who are we talking about?

(Phyllis says something else, but I cannot make it out.)

Russell Georgiev: The Vietnamese are...(Russ gives 2 thumbs down) The
Vietnamese are the closest knit (Russ interlocks his fingers) it's like
this, there is nobody closer than the Vietnamese. It's like this, they
fought us in Vietnam. I mean, their blood is...

(Mike Caro cuts Russ off...)

Mike Caro: You mentioned some people. Who were they?

Russell Georgiev: Men, Danny Dang, Tony Ma...

Mike Caro: What are they doing?

Russell Georgiev: Scamming. Moving chips. Taking chips in and out.

Mike Caro: You're talking about tournaments?

Russell Georgiev: Tournaments. Yeah, but they don't play very well. In the
other games, they play short. They don't want to lose face because they
don't want to go and play in the ring games. Every time they play in the
ring games, they get barbecued and if they play short with somebody they
get barbecued.

Mike Caro: Ok, so their main threat is in tournaments?

Russell Georgiev: Their main threat is cheating in tournaments. That is a
whole different aspect of this. Some of us think that tournament poker is
not real poker. We don't consider it real poker. All the guys we know that
are playing tournament now could not last playing poker in the ring games.

Mike Caro: Do you know anything about Tack? A little oriental that plays
here?

William Nirdlinger: Oh, you mean the Tack we mentioned earlier?

Russell Georgiev: No. No. That was Tack Ishi.

Mike Caro: This is a guy I play against regularly. He beats me heads-up
lowball but doesn't play very much.

Russell Georgiev: Nothing that I can substantiate.

Mike Caro: What about people like Dab?

Russell Georgiev: Dab? Nothing I can really substantiate about Dab either.

Mike Caro: And you said you didn't know anything about Marsha either?

Russell Georgiev: Marsha Wagner?

Mike Caro: Yeah. Except of the incident...

(Russell Georgiev cuts Mike off...)

Russell Georgiev: Marsha Wagner is gonna pull every shot. She's as crooked
as a corkscrew. She was beaten in a scam where she was involved in trying
to make counterfeit money. Or she though she was involved in trying to
make counterfeit money. She was beaten out of close to $200,000.

John Martino: Exactly $200,000.

Mike Caro: So she got scammed?

Russell Georgiev: She got scammed because she was going to make
counterfeit money. She was down there scrubbing the bills. She was down
there on her knees scrubbing $2 dollar bills to try to make money. And she
was gonna pass it. Her duty was going to be to pass the money.

John Martino: In the casinos in California.

Russell Georgiev: Right. She was gonna pass it in the casinos in
California.

Mike Caro: But I thought you said that she didn't do anything except shoot
angles.

Russell Georgiev: Well as far as shooting angles - As far as cheating
directly, she is probably not incapable. Here, anytime anybody sticks
anyone into a game or has a piece of somebody they kinda know what they
are doing in the same game. They know the person isn't going to bluff
them. They know when the person bets and they're in the back - backside -
they know they have an edge. They know they are not bluffing. So they know
if they raise - Ok, here, lock it up. Half the money goes over here. I
mean, everything has some degree of an edge to it.

Mike Caro: What about Mason? He's a guy that plays in the 75.

Russell Georgiev: Mason? Don't have enough knowledge on him to make an
opinion one way or another.

Mike Caro: Rudds?

Russell Georgiev: Who?

Mike Caro: Ralph or...

Russell Georgiev: The Rudds? The Rudds are idiots. Well, we won't say
they're idiots. They are just unaware of what is really happening. They
would - if they were hungry they would do it.

Mike Caro: Ok. They're not ones that...

(Russell Georgiev cuts Mike off...)

Russell Georgiev: No, they're not capable. Alot of people are not capable
of doing this. You have to understand.

(Phyllis Caro asks another question but I am unable to make it out.)

Russell Georgiev: What? Oh, Pat Rail. He got nailed in New York. He got
nailed in New York in The Mayfair. They caught him holding out a card. I
mean, he was barred there - Oh, and Farhad - There's another one.

John Martino: In the last 20 years, I'm not talking about California, but
I'll give you an incident of somebody you know very well. Eric Drache and
Puggy Pearson. They went up there with Ralph Morten. Ralph Morent caught
them with marked cards. Where was that?

Russell Georgiev: In Yakima. In Yakima, Washington.

John Martino: It was published. It was like put in the news paper
basically. That was when Eric Drache was still at The Nugget. Which he was
doing everything at The Golden Nugget when he had the card room. But him
and Puggy went up there and was cheating Ralph Morten with marked cards
and Ralph caught them. I mean, it's common knowledge. It was in the news
paper.

Mike Caro: When was that?

John Martino: In the last 20 years.

Mike Caro: What about Jack Keller? Does anybody know anything about Jack
Keller?

John Martino: Jack Keller used to do alot of things in Las Vegas. Yeah, he
used to beat Las Vegas from the outside.

Russell Georgiev: Did he cheat?

John Martino: Oh, yes. When I say beating Las Vegas, he used to beat the
21. He worked with people beating 21. There was an incident back when I
was there with a team and he was there with a team and we were at the same
casino, The Frontier, many years ago.

Mike Caro: But that's BlackJack?

John Martino: BlackJack. Yes.

Mike Caro: But you don't know for sure that he ever did anything with
poker?

John Martino: No. Wait, let me think a minute....There were incidences
when he was in when Chip had the card room. Other times he would play
legitimately, but certain times he was in. That was from '76 to '80.

Mike Caro: By "in" you mean what?

Russell Georgiev: He was involved.

John Martino: He was on a team. Ok. Let me tell you someone else...

(Mike Caro cuts John off...)

Mike Caro: You are talking about collusion then?

John Martino: Collusion. Yes. I'm gonna mention a guy. Pat Callahan from
The Stardust. He rented the Holdem section. He was putting in coolers. He
had marked cards. He had dealers doing everything. Putting out hands. Now
he has a position now. (Looks directly at Phyllis Caro) Is he still at The
Bellagio? He has a position at the Gaming Commission. The 2 people that I
talked to that were very honest but their higher-ups evidently had more
power with the...They did not see how he could possibly...It was like a
joke to them how The Mirage hired him and how he is still at The Bellagio
now. I mean, he was one of the crooked and goes back to the 70's with
Spilotro. I mean, this is like a joke.

Mike Caro: Yeah but he was definitely at The Bellagio a couple weeks ago.

John Martino: Yeah, that's what I'm saying...

Mike Caro: Doug Dalton called me and told me that Pat Callahan wanted to
say hello.

John Martino: Yeah, he works there and Doug Dalton, like I said in the
early 70's, I gave him money for...

(Mike Caro cuts John off...)

Mike Caro: But my opinion was that he was an honest player.

(Russell laughs out loud and John Martino's eyes grow big.)

John Martino: Honest?? He rented The Stardust card room.

Russell Georgiev: The Stardust card room was the most dishonest...

(Mike Caro cuts Russ off...)

Mike Caro: But I'm just saying he was legitimately at The Bellagio as a
guest because I know he was on the phone so I don't believe that there is
anything suspicious about that.

John Martino: Well other than having the dealers, marked cards, and
putting out hands, his thing was what Russ just said to you a few minutes
ago about putting 8 people, or 7, or 4 in one game. He did that at The
Mirage.

Mike Caro: Ok. I don't know about that. I'm hearing that for the first
time.

John Martino: The Gaming Commission...The 2 guys...he was like a host but
he was putting 6 people in and they were all playing the same bankroll. Is
that honest? Well maybe Chip and Doyle think it's honest. I don't think
you think it's honest but I know they do.

Russell Georgiev: All we want is one person to beat.

John Martino: It's just about as big a joke as Doug Dalton running The
Bellagio card room. It's a joke.

Mike Caro: Well, he maintains that this is all just rumor.

Russell Georgiev: Well everybody can maintain that it is just rumor.

John Martino: Well ask him to take a lie detector test or a voice stress
test.

Mike Caro: Are all you three willing - You said you were willing to take
lie detector tests?

Russell Georgiev: Yes.

John Martino: 100% willing.

Russell Georgiev: We are willing to take lie detector tests.

John Martino: Only if....Only if...

(Russell Georgiev cuts John off...)

Russell Georgiev: No. There is no only. We are willing to take lie
detector tests.

John Martino: We want them to take a lie detector test too.

Russell Georgiev: No. We don't care. I'll take them and then we'll dare
them to take them.

John Martino: They deny all this - What we are saying, correct?

Russell Georgiev: We'll take them. We'll take the lie detector test.

John Martino: So let them take it too and see who passes. I want to take
it with them.

Russell Georgiev: It doesn't matter. We get our credibility. It doesn't
make any difference. If they don't take them it's like not showing the
film. We know hat we are telling you is the truth. It's been going on for
35 years since I have been involved in this world and from the stories
that I've heard from the guys I played with earlier, the old men, it was
going on for their 35 years. So that's 70 years and you read about Soapy
Smith and everything like that. Here, it's always been crooked. Gambling
is never honest. They're cheating roulette now. They cheat BlackJack. They
cheat Baccarat. Whatever they can cheat, they're gonna cheat. I mean, the
cheaters, it's like a union. You have to understand. It's like a union but
we have no pension. It depends on which branch or - but we communicate. We
communicate worldwide. We can get information anything that happens within
any given day. All we have to do is call this number or this number.

John Martino: Mike, do you know Billy Walter?

Mike Caro: Yes.

John Martino: Ok. Is it common knowledge how he got started cheating the
roulette? Is that common knowledge?

Mike Caro: No. I don't know anything about that.

John Martino: Oh. He cheated Atlantic City. He cheated The Golden Nugget.
He didn't have alot of money and that's what kicked him off. He cheated
the roulette. But people on the street, we know that. The casino knows it.
They knew it after it was done. Some of them knows how and some of them
don't.

Mike Caro: How did he do that?

John Martino: I don't know. Technology. There is a way to cheat anything.

Russell Georgiev: Well the wheels now - You noticed. You know they changed
the wheel.

Mike Caro: I know because they don't want people timing the wheels.

Russell Georgiev: Well here, they are always one step behind. Vegas is
always one step behind.

(They talk about the roulette wheel a little more. It turns into an
argument and they are all talking at once so I'm not taking the time to
decipher that. It is not useful information.)

Mike Caro: So, you all know that there have been instances of cheating at
The World Series of Poker. That's what you're telling me?

John Martino: I've worked there. I've dealt there. I've played and from
the outside I have won alot of money. Cheating. Yes.

Russell Georgiev: I want to be dealt to from a dealer from Joe Wiley's
School of Dealing. That's why I play in California.

Mike Caro: Why are you mentioning Joe Wiley?

Russell Georgiev: I'm giving him a little plug because every dealer that
comes out of there doesn't know what they are doing. But there are alot of
them that come out.

Mike Caro: You aren't mentioning him in any disreputable context?

Russell Georgiev: No. The thing is, he's got a bid dealing school and he
furnishes the casinos with alot of dealers. But everyone of them you see,
you know they can't possibly be cheating you. They might make a mistake,
but you know these people just learned how to shuffle a deck or something.
You could go to sleep. But when I see somebody who is 60 years old - It's
like - Oh, it's him. What am I going to do? Who am I going to complain to?
In fact, The Bicycle just hired - they're having a scandal now and they
just hired a guy in the Chinese - In the Asian Poker section who was
arrested in Vienna for rigging a jackpot in poker. He served some jail
time over there.

Mike Caro: Do they know that?

(Phyllis says something to Russell and I am unable to make it out. She
asked him several questions and makes some comments. I was only able to
pick up Russell's response.)

Russell Georgiev: What? Yeah, what's his last name? Yeah, I'm pretty sure.
He's about my size? My...Well now is is working again...I've got his name.
Agular. Mike Agular. They just hired him again at The Bike. I mean, he's
working in the Asian section. Why do you keep hiring cheats to work there
so they can steal? I mean, it's incredible. I mean, do you know why?
Cheats hire cheats to cheat with but the casinos should hire cheats to
fight the cheats. I mean, we're the first line of defense for poker. You
know, this might be giving my business a plug but if anybody could make
poker honest, we could.

Mike Caro: Ok. Let's cut it off there.

(Tape cuts off...)

(End Transcript: Tape 1)

_________________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com

[Railz]

"My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from
this guy who knows this kid who's going with a girl who saw Russ cheat at
cards. I guess it's pretty serious. "

Always knew that movie quote (altered) would come in handy sometime.

[Mike Caro]

NOTICE: The above post, purporting to be transcripts of proprietary
interviews made by me, was made without my consent. The post
constitutes a criminal act.

Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro

[calmar]

"shinobi" <anon...@earthlink.net> writes:

Oh, criminal act or not,

at least I'm able now to understand (reading) what's going on on
the tapes. I'm not able to understand it due to the
voice-quality.

thanks

--
calmar (o_
//\ <--- GNU/Linux is GREAT
V_/_ www.calmar.ws

[Newgca]

Guess you have to take it to court in that case. Be a good citizen, hold your
guns now, don't back down. See you in court. If you don't you will be the
criminal.

I would like to see you in court, then we can get everything out. I CALL YOUR
BLUFF CARO.

Russ Georgiev

Russ Georgiev

[Newgca]

>>NOTICE: The above post, purporting to be transcripts of proprietary
>>interviews made by me, was made without my consent. The post
>>constitutes a criminal act.
>>
>>Straight Flushes,
>>Mike Caro

What about the 4000 copies of tape I sent out? Am I facing 4000 counts now?

I call your BLUFF.

Russ Georgiev (bluff catcher) this is why you could never win playing poker
against me. You have a tell.

[BANKROLLONSWOLL]

HE CAN SUE GARY CARSON TO FOR CALLING HIM A RACIST.

"Newgca" <new...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030724173908...@mb-m23.aol.com...

[Gary Carson]

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:08:46 -0500, Mike Caro <ca...@caro.com> wrote:

>NOTICE: The above post, purporting to be transcripts of proprietary
>interviews made by me, was made without my consent. The post
>constitutes a criminal act.
>

No, it doesn't.

There's a dispute between you and Russ regarding your contractual
agreement about the rights to that video tape.

It's not at all clear to me that he doesn't have distribution rights
to the video and it's transcript.

Even if he doesn't have the distribution rights, it's not clear that
the distribution is a criminal act.

He clearly has some rights to the video, it's not clear where the
exact line is drawn however. It is clear that he retains
non-exclusive rights to his responses to your questions.

Why don't you just take him to court and get the dispute resolved if
it's so damn important to you?

[Darryl Parsons]

I guess if you're already playing God by deciding who is good and bad
overall, it's only par for the course to play judge and jury and
decide about the act being criminal or not. I'm glad it got posted
anyway, regardless of what God's representatives say.

[Russ Georgiev]

garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu (Gary Carson) wrote in message news:<3f206052...@news.mindspring.com>...

Mike and the rest are just waiting until I say something really bad
about them.

Something like a low down yellowbelly. Let's see, so far they have
stated I have libeled them, slandered them and attempted extortion on
them. I guess they can take some more and more and more and more.

Russ Georgiev

[Newgca]

>The post
>constitutes a criminal act.
>
>Straight Flushes,
>Mike Caro

Need a good lawyer? Cause your others only like to play poker. I just received
some legal advice on your behalf. You should make a ctizens arrest and march
this person down to the jail. Of course to find out which jail, please consult
my attorney.

Russ Georgiev

[Gary Carson]

On 24 Jul 2003 21:47:48 -0700, RussGe...@aol.com (Russ Georgiev)

>
>Mike and the rest are just waiting until I say something really bad
>about them.
>
>Something like a low down yellowbelly. Let's see, so far they have
>stated I have libeled them, slandered them and attempted extortion on
>them. I guess they can take some more and more and more and more.
>

He owes me money.

[Newgca]

>Oh, criminal act or not,
>
>at least I'm able now to understand (reading) what's going on on
>the tapes. I'm not able to understand it due to the
>voice-quality.
>
>thanks
>
>--
>calmar (o_
> //\ <--- GNU/Linux is GREAT
> V_/_ www.calmar.ws
>

The next 3 hours 20 minutes has begun to be transcribed. As soon as my site is
up, I will restore the tapes and make DVD's.

Russ Georgiev

[Mike Caro]

Gary --

Please explain your reasoning on RGP in 2,500 to 6,000 words.

If I am convinced by your arguments, I will pay you the full $2
million I said I would give you if you were right about Card Player
severing relations with me, despite the fact that I can prove that
both what you implied (that I was let go) was wrong and what you said
literally (that they stopped using my work) was wrong.

But, even though you already struck out in that regard, I'll still pay
you if I like your essay enough -- and if it's neither too short or
too long to qualify.

Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro

[Gary Carson]

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 22:30:30 -0500, Mike Caro <ca...@caro.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 23:52:17 GMT, garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu
>(Gary Carson) wrote:
>
>>On 24 Jul 2003 21:47:48 -0700, RussGe...@aol.com (Russ Georgiev)
>>
>>>
>>>Mike and the rest are just waiting until I say something really bad
>>>about them.
>>>
>>>Something like a low down yellowbelly. Let's see, so far they have
>>>stated I have libeled them, slandered them and attempted extortion
on
>>>them. I guess they can take some more and more and more and more.
>>>
>>
>>He owes me money.
>
>Gary --
>
>Please explain your reasoning on RGP in 2,500 to 6,000 words.
>
>If I am convinced by your arguments, I will pay you the full $2
>million I said I would give you if you were right about Card Player
>severing relations with me, despite the fact that I can prove that
>both what you implied (that I was let go) was wrong and what you said
>literally (that they stopped using my work) was wrong.

I never said that they servered relations with you Mike. I said they
stopped using your stuff.

You, of all people, should know better than think something means
something other than what it says.

CardPlayer did stop using your work. That's simply the truth.

I wasn't implying that they did so because it was Shulman's idea, I
was pointing out that your statment that they didn't fire you didn't
mean anything.

Of course, when you make a challange promising to pay someone, that
doesn't mean anything either.

You said that if I could prove that they'd stopped using your stuff
that you'd give me $2 million.

You're full of shit, you're a phony, you're claiming I said things I
didn't say, you're changing the details of your challange once you
realize you've lost your challange. You're just another deadbeat
gambler who live in a fantasy world

If you want 2,500 words it will cost you 10c a word. And, since you
have a history of welching, I'll have to have an advance payment.

[Mike Caro]

Gary --

Here's what I'll do.

We'll get a group of the top people in poker together (major poker
ambassadors, tournament directors, writers with no axe to grind) and
they'll choose 100 people as candidates that they feel will be
objective in this regard.

We'll randomly choose a jury of 12 from this group.

Then we'll go back to the first post you made on this topic and
include the ones in the thread that related to it. The jury will
consider what I said and what you said.

If they agree (by majority rule, and I'll concede 6-6 splits to you)
that you deserve the $2 million, based on what was intended by you and
by me, I'll pay it (even though I've already disallowed your claim,
because you're both factually by intent and literally wrong). If they
agree that your claim should be denied, then you pay me $50,000.

In other words, I'll lay you 40-to-1. Does this sound fair to you?

Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro

[Gary Carson]

Okay, Mike, you do what you want. Let me know when you're done.

But, since you're changing things to consider what was intended by
you, it's pointless because you clearly never intended to pay me
anything. So, there's no reason for me to be involved. I already
agree that you never intended to pay me.

Of course now you're sounding like that buffon Shoonmaker who wanted
to bet me 25k that my book woudn't outsell his. He never intended any
such thing from the gitgo -- and neither do you.

You owe me 2 million dollars Mike. You won't pay. I know you won't
pay. I have no way to collect. So, go collect your freinds and get
them to agree with you. Then you can feel good about yourself again.

But, I don't think I'm interested in this continuing to change the
terms of your little challange. You're just a buffon.

[Mike Caro]

Gary Carson --

I'm amazed that you continue.

Anyone, anyone at all, just read what he wrote and what I offered.
This man is going to go on and on saying I owe him $2 million, rather
than just admit that he is positively wrong in his accusation.

Gary, I said I'd give you $2 million dollars if what you asserted was
true. It's clear what you asserted, and it's clear that it isn't true.
However, you're trying to weazel through with a word game, saying that
you meant to agree with me that I wasn't fired AND that you meant to
say that Card Player wasn't using me anymore, not as their choice, but
as my choice. But, why would you barge in to bitterly bicker with me,
if you were agreeing with what I'd already stated? But, let's suppose
I give you credit for that interpretation (which I never would -- and
would obviously not pay you on that basis, because it wasn't what you
"asserted"). You'd STILL lose, because "they" (Card Player -- and,
yes, the web site) continued to use my stuff.

I resent what you're doing -- and it WILL come back to you. It's the
law of the universe. You're miserable bad deeds will be punished. And
I shall be rewarded for all the good and sacrifice that I have brought
to six billion people throughout the world, bettering their lives,
everywhere. I have almost single-handedly rid the world of torture and
greed and hatered. It has been a hard, lengthy fight. This great good
shall be recognized and the joy of having done the right thing and
being honored for it will be mine. It isn't just that I have always
been perfect, which you won't hear many argue against, it is that I
have done so with class and dignity. That makes me truly godlike and
magnificentl.

So, you see, there's really an almost measurable degree of contrast
between us.

Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro

[Gary Carson]

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 00:10:30 -0500, Mike Caro <ca...@caro.com> wrote:

>Gary Carson --
>
>I'm amazed that you continue.
>
>Anyone, anyone at all, just read what he wrote and what I offered.
>This man is going to go on and on saying I owe him $2 million, rather
>than just admit that he is positively wrong in his accusation.
>
>Gary, I said I'd give you $2 million dollars if what you asserted was
>true. It's clear what you asserted, and it's clear that it isn't
true.

Here's what I said Mike.

>You weren't an employee. Of course you weren't fired. They just
>stopped using your work.

What part of that is not true?

Here's your challange.

"I will GIVE YOU $2 million if you can show that what you're asserting
authoritatively as a fact is true -- at no risk to you whatsoever."

As an attempt to demonstrate that what I said wasn't true you said
this.

"I wasn't fired. I could prove it in court -- even with evidence
beyond
the testimony of everyone who's told you the same thing. And -- just
in case you're wondering why I was so confident about saying they
didn't stop using my work, either -- it's because I allowed them to
continue to have my material online at their web site, even after I
began writing for a competitor.

So, even if you stretch your statement to mean, "Mike wasn't fired,
but they stopped using his material, because he stopped providing it,"
that wouldn't be correct, either."

Well, gee, I never said you were fired. I said you weren't So, I guess
that part of my statment is true.

Then you claimed the archiving on the website was use of your work.

But, when I pointed out that the website is not cardplayer, it's a
joint venture between cardplayer and another company you dropped that
defense and started claiming that you were just talking about what I
meant, not what I said.

What I said was true Caro.

>However, you're trying to weazel through with a word game, saying
that
>you meant to agree with me that I wasn't fired AND that you meant to
>say that Card Player wasn't using me anymore, not as their choice,
but
>as my choice.

I just said they didn't use your work anymore. I didn't know why.

But, why would you barge in to bitterly bicker with me,
>if you were agreeing with what I'd already stated? But, let's suppose
>I give you credit for that interpretation (which I never would -- and
>would obviously not pay you on that basis, because it wasn't what you
>"asserted"). You'd STILL lose, because "they" (Card Player -- and,
>yes, the web site) continued to use my stuff.

The website isn't the magainze, it's not even the same company.

>I resent what you're doing -- and it WILL come back to you. It's the
>law of the universe. You're miserable bad deeds will be punished. And
>I shall be rewarded for all the good and sacrifice that I have
brought
>to six billion people throughout the world, bettering their lives,
>everywhere.

Take your medicince, Caro. Then take a nap.

You're an empty blowhard, blustering and turning red in the face.

[Mike Caro]

Gary --

It wasn't what you meant:

You meant (see your comments leading into the statements) that I was
full of it and that I was playing word games by saying I wasn't fired.
Instead they had "just" quit using my work, you said -- meaning that,
although I was technically not fired, I effectively was. But I was the
one who quit providing the material. They didn't "just" quit using it.

And I was also the one who first planted the idea that you could
technically use your literal words as an "out" (see my follow-up post
telling you that interpretation was wrong BEFORE you responded, and
GIVING you the reason in advance why you lost). I said that if you
tried that, you would still be wrong, because they didn't stop using
my stuff. And still you try to use that "out," even though it was
disallowed in advance, and even though it's wrong -- they continued to
feature my stuff at CardPlayer.com, with my permission.

Your case now hinges on the bizarre contention that you agreed with me
all along and were stating your agreement in your hostile post to me.
In order for that to make sense, you must also believe that I was
challenging you for agreeing with me.

But, again, even if I accept that contorted argument, you still lose.
If you think you can win in a court of reasonable, objective,
impartial people, my offer still stands about the "jury" resolution --
but you have to put up $50,000 that will be mine if the majority of
them rule against you. That means I'm laying you 40-to-1. This offer
expires when I go to sleep at 1 p.m Central Time -- after which the
original offer (to be decided in my sole judgment) still applies.

Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro

[Gary Carson]

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 00:48:33 -0500, Mike Caro <ca...@caro.com> wrote:

>Gary --
>
>It wasn't what you meant:

I meant what I said Mike.

Did you mean what you said?

>
>You meant (see your comments leading into the statements) that I was
>full of it and that I was playing word games by saying I wasn't
fired.

I meant there was no way to tell whether you were playing word games
or not.

There stil is no way to tell.

>But, again, even if I accept that contorted argument, you still lose.
>If you think you can win in a court of reasonable, objective,
>impartial people, my offer still stands about the "jury" resolution

Sure Mike. Get a collection of your freinds and see if they agree
with you.

--
>but you have to put up $50,000 that will be mine if the majority of
>them rule against you.

LOL

What a weasel.

No risk to me? Isn't that what you said. Did you mean what you said?
I meant what I said.

[RTN4]

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 00:10:30 -0500, Mike Caro <ca...@caro.com> wrote:

>Gary Carson --
>
>I'm amazed that you continue.

Mike Caro--

[Newgca]

>Here's what I'll do.
>
>We'll get a group of the top people in poker together (major poker
>ambassadors, tournament directors, writers with no axe to grind) and
>they'll choose 100 people as candidates that they feel will be
>objective in this regard.

Wouldn't be any bias here, would there?

>We'll randomly choose a jury of 12 from this group.

Random being picking from a selected group you have already selected. Kind of
like saying Gore was going to lose in the Florida supreme court? Or Bush was
going to lose in the US supreme court?

That's random?

>In other words, I'll lay you 40-to-1. Does this sound fair to you?
>
>Straight Flushes,
>Mike Caro

You are just a FARE guy Mike.

Russ Georgiev

[Newgca]

>You're just a buffon.

But he's a FARE buffoon.

[Newgca]

>However, you're trying to weazel through with a word game, saying that
>you meant to agree with me that I wasn't fired AND that you meant to
>say that Card Player wasn't using me anymore, not as their choice, but
>as my choice.

You told me you were axed by CardPlayer, were having your Poker Conference
boycotted and several other things by the casino, including them pressuring you
to turn over the tapes and the chips.

Quite a coincidence after working umpteen year with Cardplayer, GCA comes along
and you are no longer with Cardplayer, but go over to Poker Digest, which in
turn is bought out by Cardplayer and you return to Cardplayer.

Kind of like the same hand being dealt twice at Party Poker.

Russ Georgiev

[Mike Caro]

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 06:07:25 GMT, garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu
(Gary Carson) wrote (in part)

>No risk to me? Isn't that what you said. Did you mean what you said?

Good morning, Gary --

I apologize for the misunderstanding. The original offer of $2
million, at no risk to you, remains for you to claim -- if you can
change my mind about how I have ruled. I promise to be fair.

The one you turned down -- my $2 million against your $50,000 and
we'll let an objective jury decide -- is no longer available.

I wish you a sunshiny day. And I mean it. I will no longer engage in
angry combat.

Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro

[Mike Caro]

Hi, RTN4 --

Me, too. And your point is a very good one. Thanks.

Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro

[A. Prock]

According to Mike Caro <ca...@caro.com>:

>Good morning, Gary --
>
>I apologize for the misunderstanding. The original offer of $2
>million, at no risk to you, remains for you to claim -- if you can
>change my mind about how I have ruled. I promise to be fair.

Mike, I'll give you my entire net worth, if you can convince
me to change my mind about not giving you my entire net
worth.

- Andrew

--
http://www.pokerstove.com

[Mike Caro]

On 26 Jul 2003 14:24:56 GMT, proc...@pokerstove.com (A. Prock)
wrote:

Good morning, Andrew --

Excellently stated. Also, you need to promise to be fair, though.

Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro

[A. Prock]

According to Mike Caro <ca...@caro.com>:

>On 26 Jul 2003 14:24:56 GMT, proc...@pokerstove.com (A. Prock)
>>

>>Mike, I'll give you my entire net worth, if you can convince
>>me to change my mind about not giving you my entire net
>>worth.
>>
>>- Andrew
>
>Good morning, Andrew --
>
>Excellently stated. Also, you need to promise to be fair, though.

I made no such promise. Stop trying to twist the situation.