For those who do not like to click on tinyurls, here are the actual URLs in
question --
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5207478.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/06/middle_east_beirut_destruction/html/1.stm
For anyone who doubts Israel is committing the war crime of collective
punishment, take a look at the pictures, folks.
Remember, this is all over two kidnapped Israeli soldiers whom Hizbollah
offered and continues to offer to trade for three Hizbollah prisoners.
This has absolutely nothing to do with legitimate self defense by Israel.
This has everything to do with blatant war crimes.
Israel has crossed the line. We will likely see war crimes trials, unless
the USA blocks such trials.
William Coleman (ramashiva)
> This has absolutely nothing to do with legitimate self defense by Israel.
> This has everything to do with blatant war crimes.
>
> Israel has crossed the line. We will likely see war crimes trials, unless
> the USA blocks such trials.
>
>
> William Coleman (ramashiva)
All I know is that anyone who thinks this plan of action leads to Israel's
long-term security and a reduction in terrorism needs their head examined.
This blunder is decidedly Bush-like in its magnitude. Make's me suspicious
the neo-cons are calling the shots in Jerusalem too.
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=24885
Keep in mind these war crimes have the support of the US President and
and about 90% of the boot licking US Congress.
Well, the alternative suggestion is that the warmongers running the Israeli
government are calling the shots in Washington. I have long discounted this
possibility as a conspiracy theory along the lines of the 9/11 conspiracy
theory.
But I am beginning to wonder. No one questions that we are close with
Israel and that Israelis have a lot of influence in Washington.
Could the Jewish lobby actually be calling the shots in Washington with
respect to Middle Eastern foreign policy?
You have to wonder, especially since Condi Rice waited 12 days to even
bother to go to the region for diplomacy. Naturally no Arab country, not
even "friendly" ones like Jordan and Saudi Arabia want anything to do with
her before a ceasefire is declared.
Meanwhile, Rice has said that she won't even call for a ceasefire until all
of Israel's demands are met -- the most important ones being the return of
the kidnapped soldiers and the disarming of Hizbollah!
LMFAO! If Rice is not taking orders from Tel Aviv, it sure does look like
it. I don't see how this can continue much longer. Despite the fact that
Bush and Rice have given the Israelis the green light to kill as many Arabs
as possible, while the killing is good, the horrific images being broadcast
all over the world and the ratcheting up of diplomatic pressure on the USA,
will surely force Bush to make that phone call I have previously discussed
and tell Olmert to stop the bombing and killing.
Of course rabid Nazis like FL Turbo claim all the calls for ceasefire are
motivated by the fact that Hizbollah is getting its butt kicked.
No, the calls for ceasefire are motivated by the killing of innocent
civilians.
The idea that Israel is kicking Hizbollah's butt is ridiculous. Israel
claims to have killed 100 members of Hizbollah. LMAO! That's less than ten
per day. Yeah, that is a severe asskicking for an extremely well trained
militia with thousands of members.
I will never get where all this glorification of the Israeli war machine as
invincible supermen comes from. In twelve days, the total damage inflicted
on Hizbollah amounts to a pinprick.
But Israel will destroy Hizbollah. Yeah, right, sure.
Tell me about your other fantasies.
And I have a clue for all you warmongering Nazis who support Israel's war
crimes and genocide. Before this shit started, almost all liberals were
pro-Israel. Notice on RGP, not a single liberal is speaking up in defense
of Israel.
Of course war crimes apologists like FL Turbo say we are all turncoats and
fair weather friends. Not so.
But we are liberals. We did not sign on for war crimes and genocide. That
does not make us turncoats.
Right now, it looks like the only support left for Israel in this country is
the Bush Crime Family and the political right wing. That does not bode well
for Israel. If only the American right supports Israel, there is no way the
unqualified American support for Israel continues.
Israel needs to stop embarrassing its liberal supporters in the USA.
William Coleman (ramashiva)
> Pictures > http://tinyurl.com/k2qkh
>
> Story > http://tinyurl.com/oz98q
Those pictures, and the article, mention SOUTHERN Beirut only. SOUTHERN
Beirut, the capital city of Hizballahstan. And it's not flat enough. Go
on and mention the other targets designed to destroy Hizballah, I don't
care. Israel is doing the world's heavy lifting here. If they lose I
hope I live long enough to see Hizballah come for you for it is not
Israel's destruction they seek but world domination. Do you think you can
do any business with a group called 'The Party of God'? How anybody with
Western values, liberal values especially, can oppose a war against Nazis
is beyond me. They are deadly serious in their resolve and those who
don't want to live under their thumb had better be even more so.
And what is all this talk of 'disproportionate response'? All my adult
life I've heard the 'cycle of violence' decried. It looks like this time
Israel wants to end the cycle.
Howard Beale
____________________________________________________________________
looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com
>.... they seek but world domination. Do you think you can
> do any business with a group called 'The Party of God'?
Who said anything about Republicans?
Yeah. Where are all the Nazi assholes who wailed and moaned about the
burned desecrated American mercenaries in Fallujah?
Why aren't they wailing and moaning over pictures of incinerated innocent
civilians in Beruit? I would really like an explanation of the silence of
the right wing trolls. Here are the two situations --
In Fallujah, the USA had invaded and occupied Iraq. The USA decided to use
mercenary soldiers. Four of these arrogant mercenaries had the balls to
drive down the main street of Fallujah in their SUV, wearing their designer
sunglasses, the barrels of their automatic weapons stuck out the windows
like they owned the place. They didn't own the place. They were foolishly
on someone else's turf. Predictably, they were ambushed. Their bodies were
burned and mutilated.
The hue and outcry from American Nazis was deafening. "They were American
boys," screams Paul G. They were not "American boys". That refers to young
adult American soldiers and Marines. These mercenaries were grizzled
retired military aged 40+.
On the other hand, the pictures on the above link are pictures of dead
innocent civilians killed by the indiscriminate bombing of Beirut by Israel.
Obviously, the innocent civilians did nothing to deserve their fate.
Yet the right-wing trolls are silent. They see nothing objectionable here
about these pictures?
Isn't it obvious that the Israel supporters on RGP are hypocritical Nazi
racists?
It certainly is to me.
William Coleman (ramashiva)
As opposed to supremicists who call themselves "God's Chosen People"?
Go to Hell you filthy bigot.
That's it? I finally make statements in a political thread that are
decidedly NOT middle of the road because the topic is so serious and
important to me. I expect to get flamed and am sort of hoping that it
will happen. And THIS? Too tepid. I'm going to go play some 8-16 now
and I expect better by the time I get back, in about 10 hours.
Btw, the other day there was a player on my right with a foreign accent.
Apparently he and the dealer and some of the other players had been
talking about the World Cup for the past few weeks and they started up
again. After a while someone asked him where he was from. It turns out
he is a Lebanese Christian, now American and they started talking about
the war. ZOMG!!!!! It reminded me of the time I asked an Iraqi Christian
a few years back what he thought of the Iraq situation. There was nothing
I could do to stop either of them although the Lebanese fellow was more
temperate. Suffice to say (and this is a gross understatement) that the
Lebanese man cared little for Hizballah. I thought, at the time, that the
Iraqi guy would explode with hatred for the Iraqi people, Saddam and the
land they lived on. 2 hours of it. That did it, I never ask political
questions in person anymore unless I have an escape route laid out.
HB
-----
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
So fucking what??? Do you think no innocent civilians live there? You
still do not understand the concept of the war crime of collective
punishment. You cannot drop bombs to kill terrorists if it is predictable
that innocent civilians will be killed. That is a war crime.
One of the builtin advantages of an asymettrical force like Hizbollah is
that they can hide behind civilians. That is why is is so hard to defeat
them.
> And it's not flat enough. Go
> on and mention the other targets designed to destroy Hizballah,
It doesn't matter if the intention was to destroy Hizbollah. Your intention
is not what's important. If you could reasonably expect innocent civilians
to be killed, you cannot drop the bomb. To do so is a war crime.
Please read the Geneva Conventions and get back to me.
> I don't care.
This is obvious. Do you really think you are a decent human being when you
rationalize war crimes?
> Israel is doing the world's heavy lifting here.
Oh bullshit. Hizbollah is a threat to no one but Israel. Don't try to
scare us with the terrorist boogeyman of Islamofascism.
> If they lose I
> hope I live long enough to see Hizballah come for you
Hizbollah is not going to come for me, asshole. Stop trying to scare the
shit out of everyone.
> for it is not
> Israel's destruction they seek but world domination.
You are clinically insane Howard. Hizbollah wants Israel to give their land
back, nothing more. "World domination"??? LMFAO!.
> Do you think you can do any business with a group called 'The Party of
> God'?
How can you expect to do any business with Jews who think they are God's
chosen people and they think this justifies genocide and war crimes in the
name of national defense?
> How anybody with
> Western values, liberal values especially, can oppose a war against Nazis
> is beyond me.
Then you understand nothing. Israel has become a national security police
state committing genocide and war crimes. The Jews have become Nazis
themselves. Don't tell me any different. They are no better than the
Islamofascists they are fighting.
Most liberals in this country used to be strong supporters of Israel. Not
anymore. We didn't sign on for genocide and war crimes. Have you seen a
single liberal poster speak up in defense of Israel? You need to think
about what this means. Do not tell me we are all turncoats or terrorist
sycophants or Jew Haters. That seems to be the criticism of the Nazi
assholes on RGP who blindly support Israeli genocide and war crimes.
> They are deadly serious in their resolve and those who
> don't want to live under their thumb had better be even more so.
They are deadly serious in their determination to get their land back from
Israel. Don't make us laugh with this world domination bullshit. Do you
seriously think the Islamofascists now or ever will represent a threat to
the security of the USA, beyond the obvious terrorist threat?
> And what is all this talk of 'disproportionate response'?
It is a disproportionate response to kill hundreds of innocent civilians in
response to two of your soldiers being kidnapped.
> All my adult
> life I've heard the 'cycle of violence' decried. It looks like this time
> Israel wants to end the cycle.
If you think Israel's actions will do anything but greatly escalate the
level of violence, you are clueless.
And you are even more clueless if you think Israel will ever destroy
Hizbollah. See my post "OT: The limits of military force" for more
details.
Right now, you have gullibly swallowed a bunch of nonsense from the
right-wing in America and Israel about the Islamofascists wanting to
dominate the world. They may want to, but it ain't gonna happen.
William Coleman (ramashiva)
Israel pulled out of Lebanon and muslims used the ground to launch missile
attacks on Israeli cities. Muslims entered Israel, attacked and murdered
Israeli soldiers and took two prisoner. They have repeatedly sworn that
their objective is the complete and total destruction of Israel.
The current violence in Lebanon was initiated by muslims living there. They
are funded by two of the biggest muslim terrorists regimes on the planet.
They have fired hundreds of long range rockets into Israel. The Lebanese
knew exactly what they were risking when they chose to harbor, support and
protect armed Hezbollah muslim terrorists in their country. What ever
happens to them is their own fault.
Irish Mike
<jj_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1153694192.8...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Mike, your bigoted insistence on holding all Muslims accountable for
the actions of a few is sick. Here's a few things I'm sure you thought
were just swell about the 20th century:
-The US government interning thousands of American civilans of Japanese
ancestry because the government of Japan attacked the US.
-Blacks in the US south being randomly lynched because a white woman
was raped by a black man
-German Jews being herded into concentration camps by Hitler because
the leadership of the Communist party was primarily Jewish
There's hundreds more examples of atrocities one could site caused or
abetted by this kind of small minded bigotry.
Mike, I used to think some of the criticisms of you by that cranky old
bitch Barbara Gallamore were unwarranted. However, this subject
exposes you for the true creep you are.
JJ
The civilians willingly shelter Hezballah. That makes them complicit
in the military effort. They are free to reject Hezballah. Do they? No.
In fact, the Muslim population of Lebanon, who are mostly displaced
Palestinians, support Hezballah's cause. These civilians cheer
every time an Israeli dies.
Further, the Lebanese government does nothing to oppose Hezballah.
They choose the current situation. At any point they could ally with
Israel and the USA to drive Hezballah out and reclaim some control
over the Hezballah-controlled areas. But they choose not to.
I don't see any words from your mouth on the thousands of
Hezballah rockets that have been fired from Lebanese territory
into Israel with the explicit intention of killing civilians.
That isn't what is happening. Hizballah is getting more popular on the
ground as Israeli bombs are falling. They are providing assistance to
civilians better then FEMA (OK, not much of a comparison these days).
Rich
Thanks for dragging my name into this discussion. By the way, its Ms.
Cranky Old Bitch to you, Mr. JJ Wanker.
Barbara Gallamore
> That's it? I finally make statements in a political thread that are
> decidedly NOT middle of the road because the topic is so serious and
> important to me. I expect to get flamed and am sort of hoping that it
> will happen. And THIS? Too tepid. I'm going to go play some 8-16 now
> and I expect better by the time I get back, in about 10 hours.
What am I supposed to say? You think Israel can bomb and kill its way to
peace and security. I don't.
>
>All I know is that anyone who thinks this plan of action leads to Israel's
>long-term security and a reduction in terrorism needs their head examined.
>This blunder is decidedly Bush-like in its magnitude. Make's me suspicious
>the neo-cons are calling the shots in Jerusalem too.
>
Karl Rove made them do it.
Alan Dershowitz has an article that would make the start for a fine
little book.
"Understanding Terrorism for Dummies"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Predictable Condemners
The Hizbullah and Hamas provocations against Israel once again
demonstrate how terrorists exploit human rights and the media in their
attacks on democracies.
By hiding behind their own civilians the Islamic radicals issue a
challenge to democracies:
Either violate your own morality by coming after us and inevitably
killing some innocent civilians, or maintain your morality and leave
us with a free hand to target your innocent civilians.
This challenge presents democracies such as Israel with a lose-lose
option, and the terrorists with a win-win option.
There is one variable that could change this dynamic and present
democracies with a viable option that could make terrorism less
attractive as a tactic:
The international community, the anti-Israel segment of the media and
the so called "human rights" organizations could stop falling for this
terrorist gambit and acknowledge that they are being used to promote
the terrorist agenda.
Whenever a democracy is presented with the lose-lose option and
chooses to defend its citizens by going after the terrorists who are
hiding among civilians, this trio of predictable condemners can be
counted on by the terrorists to accuse the democracy of
"overreaction," "disproportionality" and "violations of human rights."
In doing so they play right into the hands of the terrorists, causing
more terrorism and more civilian casualties on both sides. If instead
this trio could, for once, be counted on to blame the terrorists for
the civilian deaths on both sides, this tactic would no longer be a
win-win situation for the terrorists.
IT SHOULD BE obvious by now that Hizbullah and Hamas actually want the
Israeli military to kill as many Lebanese and Palestinian civilians as
possible. That is why they store their rockets underneath the beds of
civilians; why they launch their missiles from crowded civilian
neighborhoods and hide among civilians. They are seeking to induce
Israel to defend its civilians by going after them among their
civilian "shields." They know that every civilian they induce Israel
to kill hurts Israel in the media and the international and human
rights communities.
They regard these human shields as shahids - martyrs - even if they
did not volunteer for this lethal job. Under the law, criminals who
use human shields are responsible for the deaths of the shields, even
if the bullet that kills them came from the gun of a policeman.
Israel has every self-interest in minimizing civilian casualties,
whereas the terrorists have every self-interest in maximizing them -
on both sides. Israel should not be condemned for doing what every
democracy would and should do: taking every reasonable military step
to stop the terrorists from killing their innocent civilians.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Just a few paragraphs from a longer article.
Mr. Dershowitz nails it.
> Mr. Dershowitz nails it.
haha...ya that will go over real well in the ICC. I can hear Dersh now, "You
don't understand....those apartment buildings were levelled to *save* lives"
Please explain how you know that. It couldn't possibly be that they must
either cooperate with Hizbollah or be killed? Are you willing to even
acknowledge that as a possibility?
> That makes them complicit in the military effort.
How does it make them complicit if they must either cooperate with Hizbollah
or die?
> They are free to reject Hezballah.
How can you assert that when their choices may be to cooperate with
Hizbollah or die?
> Do they? No.
Maybe they have no choice.
> In fact, the Muslim population of Lebanon, who are mostly displaced
> Palestinians, support Hezballah's cause.
And why wouldn't they? You admit they are Palestinians. You think they
should support the Israelis, who drove from their ancestral lands?
> These civilians cheer every time an Israeli dies.
Why shouldn't they? The Israelis are killing their fellow Arabs.
> Further, the Lebanese government does nothing to oppose Hezballah.
Apparently you do not understand that the central government is not strong
enough to oppose Hizbollah militarily. If they tried, the result would be a
civil war or a Hizbollah victory. You think either of those alternatives
would be better?
> They choose the current situation.
I showed you the other two alternatives are even worse, at least from their
perspective.
> At any point they could ally with Israel
Are you insane? Ally themselves with Israel?
> and the USA
You really are insane. Apparently you do not understand that the USA has
invaded and occupied another Arab country, Iraq.
> to drive Hezballah out and reclaim some control
> over the Hezballah-controlled areas.
That will never happen. You are obviously totally ignorant of history.
Israel occupied southern Lebanon for 18 years and could not defeat
Hizbollah. What makes you think any combination of military force can do so
now?
> But they choose not to.
They did not such thing. They were presented with three bad alternatives
and chose the least bad from their perspective.
> I don't see any words from your mouth on the thousands of
> Hezballah rockets that have been fired from Lebanese territory
> into Israel with the explicit intention of killing civilians.
Then you are a fucking idiot. I have already condemned the Hizbollah rocket
attacks on Israel. Do I have to keep repeating that condemnation? That the
Hizbollah rocket attacks are wrong and should stop goes without saying,
doesn't it? The fact that you would suggest that I approve of these attacks
shows just what a blind Israeli partisan you are.
William Coleman (ramashiva)
I suggest you read a book called "The Politically Incorrect Guide To Islam"
by Robert Spencer. The book provides a glimpse into the real beliefs of
muslims. Not the sugar coated, politically correct bull shit that Americans
have been spoon fed. Islam is not, and never has been, a religion of peace.
Islam is a brutal, repressive intolerant religion. They make no distinction
between women, children, and military targets. The only distinction they
make is between muslim and non-muslim. Any one that does not accept islam
as their dominant religion is an infidel. The Qur'an gives infidels two
choices; conversion or death.
It is also why they go on murderous rampages of death and destruction over
things like: a country wanting to run a beauty pageant. Another country
publishing a cartoon. A man wanting to convert from islam to Christianity.
It's also how muslims justified taking over a non-muslim elementary school
and murdering more than 150 school children. They were just infidels.
Sorry to disappoint you bucko, but you'll have to peddle that "oh these poor
misunderstood peace-loving muslims are just innocent victims of Israel" bull
shit to some one else.
Irish Mike
<jj_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1153702656.0...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
That essay is one of the most appalling examples of Nazi thinking I have
ever read. Not surprising that FL Turbo loves it.
Isn't this the same guy who wrote a learned essay justifying torture? I
think it is. Mr. Dershowitz is a Jew. Clearly a Jewish Nazi.
As I said Mr. Dershwitz is a Jew, and his ethnicity is clearly clouding his
objectivity.
His essay is nothing less than a justification of war crimes as an expedient
necessity. Unfuckingbelievable!!!
He is basically arguing for the repeal of the Geneva Conventions.
As I have repeatedly explained, using civilians as shields is a builtin
tactical advantage of asymmetrical actors like Hizbollah. This is why these
asymmetrical forces cannot be defeated by conventional military force,
unless you commit war crimes.
So, are we going to commit war crimes, or are we going to concede that we
cannot defeat actors like Hizbollah with military force?
There is no third alternative I am aware of. This is the genius of Chairman
Mao's rules for guerrilla warfare. Four simple rules hamstring the most
powerful military in the world.
Suck it up. International capitalist imperialism can no longer invade and
occupy countries without expecting a serious guerrilla insurgency which
cannot be defeated with military force.
William Coleman (ramashiva)
I suggest you ram this vile Islamophobic propaganda up your bigoted Irish
ass.
> The book provides a glimpse into the real beliefs of muslims.
No it doesnt. It provides a glimpse into the Islamophobic lies believed by
bigoted Nazis like you and Mr. Spencer. Spencer is not a Muslim. He has no
academic training in Islamic or Middle Eastern studies.
The publisher is Regnery, founded by a white supremacist. Regnery is the
biggest publisher of extreme right-wing propaganda in the world. Authors
include hatemongers like Ann Coulter and David Horowitz as well as John
O'Neill and Jerome Corsi, authors of the book version of the lies of the
Swift Boat Liars for Bush.
> Not the sugar coated, politically correct bull shit that Americans have
> been spoon fed. Islam is not, and never has been, a religion of peace.
Of course it is, stop lying.
> Islam is a brutal, repressive intolerant religion.
This is the key Islamophobic lie. You are characterizing an entire religion
of over one billion people by its most extreme elements. This is like
characterizing all Christians as abortion clinic bombers.
> They make no distinction between women, children, and military targets.
Are the Jews making that distinction in Lebanon?
> The only distinction they make is between muslim and non-muslim.
This is a pure fabrication. Ever hear of "people of the book"? That
includes not only Muslims, but Christians and Jews.
> Any one that does not accept islam as their dominant religion is an
> infidel.
That's right. Christians define the term infidel as any non-Christian.
> The Qur'an gives infidels two choices; conversion or death.
Wow. Are you going to make one true statement before the end of the post?
Please explain why Christians and Jews live at peace in many Muslim
countries.
> It is also why they go on murderous rampages of death and destruction over
> things like: a country wanting to run a beauty pageant. Another country
> publishing a cartoon. A man wanting to convert from islam to
> Christianity. It's also how muslims justified taking over a non-muslim
> elementary school and murdering more than 150 school children. They were
> just infidels.
No one is arguing that there are not Muslim extremists and nutcases. What
is your point?
> Sorry to disappoint you bucko, but you'll have to peddle that "oh these
> poor misunderstood peace-loving muslims are just innocent victims of
> Israel" bull shit to some one else.
Sorry to disappoint you, bucko, but every statement you have made in this
post is a lie. Go peddle your hateful Islamophobic bigotry somewhere else.
Notice Irish Mike uses the top posting technique. This allows him to ignore
all points to which he is replying, while spewing his Nazi hate.
William Coleman (ramashiva)
>Could the Jewish lobby actually be calling the shots in Washington with
>respect to Middle Eastern foreign policy?
It's a simple fact.
"The Israel Lobby," John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt
London Review of Books
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html
> "Howard Beale" <a1...@webnntp.invalid> wrote in message
> news:elbdp3x...@recgroups.com...
> > On Jul 23 2006 3:54 PM, BillB wrote:
> >
> >> Pictures > http://tinyurl.com/k2qkh
> >>
> >> Story > http://tinyurl.com/oz98q
> >
> >
> > Those pictures, and the article, mention SOUTHERN Beirut only. SOUTHERN
> > Beirut, the capital city of Hizballahstan.
>
> So fucking what??? Do you think no innocent civilians live there? You
> still do not understand the concept of the war crime of collective
> punishment. You cannot drop bombs to kill terrorists if it is predictable
> that innocent civilians will be killed.
Drop them, I say. I'm not going to play by the terrorist's rules.
That is a war crime.
So sayeth the Hon. W. Coleman, now presiding.
>
> One of the builtin advantages of an asymettrical force like Hizbollah is
> that they can hide behind civilians. That is why is is so hard to defeat
> them.
I wouldn't let them get away with hiding. They must be rooted out and
killed.
>
> > And it's not flat enough. Go
> > on and mention the other targets designed to destroy Hizballah,
>
> It doesn't matter if the intention was to destroy Hizbollah. Your intention
> is not what's important. If you could reasonably expect innocent civilians
> to be killed, you cannot drop the bomb. To do so is a war crime.
How naive can a person be? I'm not playing by their rules. They want to
shoot at me while hiding amongst civilians and I can't shoot back? Are
you so simple?
>
> Please read the Geneva Conventions and get back to me.
>
> > I don't care.
>
> This is obvious. Do you really think you are a decent human being when you
> rationalize war crimes?
A lot more decent than most.
>
> > Israel is doing the world's heavy lifting here.
>
> Oh bullshit. Hizbollah is a threat to no one but Israel. Don't try to
> scare us with the terrorist boogeyman of Islamofascism.
How big is your head? I ask because I want to know the size of the hole
you had to dig in the sand.
>
> > If they lose I
> > hope I live long enough to see Hizballah come for you
>
> Hizbollah is not going to come for me, asshole. Stop trying to scare the
> shit out of everyone.
>
> > for it is not
> > Israel's destruction they seek but world domination.
>
> You are clinically insane Howard.
Thank you, Dr. Coleman, that explains many things.
Hizbollah wants Israel to give their land
> back, nothing more.
What land? The UN certified the border as accurate. Shaaba Farms is
'contested' just as an excuse. That's the UN, Secretary Coleman. You are
pretty deluded to think they just want their land back. And who are they
to demand anything? They are not the government.
"World domination"??? LMFAO!.
>
> > Do you think you can do any business with a group called 'The Party of
> > God'?
>
> How can you expect to do any business with Jews who think they are God's
> chosen people and they think this justifies genocide and war crimes in the
> name of national defense?
Go live with Hizballah. I'll pay your airfare. Go on and live by their
rules. See how far you get.
>
> > How anybody with
> > Western values, liberal values especially, can oppose a war against Nazis
> > is beyond me.
>
> Then you understand nothing. Israel has become a national security police
> state committing genocide and war crimes. The Jews have become Nazis
> themselves. Don't tell me any different. They are no better than the
> Islamofascists they are fighting.
The Islamofascists are the most illiberal people I know. They are
horrible. How you can support them in any way whatsover amazes me.
>
> Most liberals in this country used to be strong supporters of Israel. Not
> anymore. We didn't sign on for genocide and war crimes. Have you seen a
> single liberal poster speak up in defense of Israel? You need to think
> about what this means. Do not tell me we are all turncoats or terrorist
> sycophants or Jew Haters. That seems to be the criticism of the Nazi
> assholes on RGP who blindly support Israeli genocide and war crimes.
>
> > They are deadly serious in their resolve and those who
> > don't want to live under their thumb had better be even more so.
>
> They are deadly serious in their determination to get their land back from
> Israel. Don't make us laugh with this world domination bullshit. Do you
> seriously think the Islamofascists now or ever will represent a threat to
> the security of the USA, beyond the obvious terrorist threat?
You are deluded. Again.
>
> > And what is all this talk of 'disproportionate response'?
>
> It is a disproportionate response to kill hundreds of innocent civilians in
> response to two of your soldiers being kidnapped.
>
> > All my adult
> > life I've heard the 'cycle of violence' decried. It looks like this time
> > Israel wants to end the cycle.
>
> If you think Israel's actions will do anything but greatly escalate the
> level of violence, you are clueless.
Good. ONWARD TO DAMASCUS!!!!
>
> And you are even more clueless if you think Israel will ever destroy
> Hizbollah. See my post "OT: The limits of military force" for more
> details.
>
> Right now, you have gullibly swallowed a bunch of nonsense from the
> right-wing in America and Israel about the Islamofascists wanting to
> dominate the world. They may want to, but it ain't gonna happen.
>
>
> William Coleman (ramashiva)
Thank you for the response. It was most satisfactory. I knew I could
count on you.
HB
_____________________________________________________________________
>On Jul 23 2006 5:43 PM, William Coleman wrote:
>> "Howard Beale" <a1...@webnntp.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:elbdp3x...@recgroups.com...
>> > On Jul 23 2006 3:54 PM, BillB wrote:
>> >> Pictures > http://tinyurl.com/k2qkh
>> >> Story > http://tinyurl.com/oz98q
>> > Those pictures, and the article, mention SOUTHERN Beirut only. SOUTHERN
>> > Beirut, the capital city of Hizballahstan.
>> So fucking what??? Do you think no innocent civilians live there? You
>> still do not understand the concept of the war crime of collective
>> punishment. You cannot drop bombs to kill terrorists if it is predictable
>> that innocent civilians will be killed.
>Drop them, I say. I'm not going to play by the terrorist's rules.
Those ARE a terrorist's rules.
By the way, what about the two million Christians who live in Lebanon? I guess
killing them is fine too?
> On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 00:42:18 -0700, "Howard Beale" <a1...@webnntp.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> >On Jul 23 2006 5:43 PM, William Coleman wrote:
>
> >> "Howard Beale" <a1...@webnntp.invalid> wrote in message
> >> news:elbdp3x...@recgroups.com...
> >> > On Jul 23 2006 3:54 PM, BillB wrote:
>
> >> >> Pictures > http://tinyurl.com/k2qkh
>
> >> >> Story > http://tinyurl.com/oz98q
>
> >> > Those pictures, and the article, mention SOUTHERN Beirut only. SOUTHERN
> >> > Beirut, the capital city of Hizballahstan.
>
> >> So fucking what??? Do you think no innocent civilians live there? You
> >> still do not understand the concept of the war crime of collective
> >> punishment. You cannot drop bombs to kill terrorists if it is
predictable
> >> that innocent civilians will be killed.
>
> >Drop them, I say. I'm not going to play by the terrorist's rules.
>
> Those ARE a terrorist's rules.
Suggest another way to destroy them.
>
> By the way, what about the two million Christians who live in Lebanon? I
guess
> killing them is fine too?
I didn't say anything about killing anybody except the terrorist members
of Hizballah. If the target is in a civilian neighborhood I advocate
destroying it. Israel has done their best to forewarn the populace, by
way of radio and leaflets, to get out of the way. They also allowed the
networks to see their troops and armor massing on the border. What kind
of military does that? They tell the enemy what's coming for them and
where it is. Or, it could be, they want to warn the civilians about what's
about to happen. At any rate, I'm not about to quaver and wring my
hands because the target is where it is. What do you want to do? Give
the terrorists a freeroll from now to eternity? They must be confronted
and destroyed before they destroy us.
You'll notice that Hizballah is located in Shia neighborhoods, not
Christian neighborhoods. Why is that?
HB
-----
>On Jul 24 2006 2:14 AM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
>> On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 00:42:18 -0700, "Howard Beale" <a1...@webnntp.invalid>
>> wrote:
>> >On Jul 23 2006 5:43 PM, William Coleman wrote:
>> >> "Howard Beale" <a1...@webnntp.invalid> wrote in message
>> >> news:elbdp3x...@recgroups.com...
>> >> > On Jul 23 2006 3:54 PM, BillB wrote:
>> >> >> Pictures > http://tinyurl.com/k2qkh
>> >> >> Story > http://tinyurl.com/oz98q
>> >> > Those pictures, and the article, mention SOUTHERN Beirut only. SOUTHERN
>> >> > Beirut, the capital city of Hizballahstan.
>> >> So fucking what??? Do you think no innocent civilians live there? You
>> >> still do not understand the concept of the war crime of collective
>> >> punishment. You cannot drop bombs to kill terrorists if it is
>predictable
>> >> that innocent civilians will be killed.
>> >Drop them, I say. I'm not going to play by the terrorist's rules.
>> Those ARE a terrorist's rules.
>Suggest another way to destroy them.
Destroy whom? Everyone who might possibly become Hezbollah in response
to Israel's crazed responses? I suppose you could kill all Arabs. That seems
to be a fashionable opinion these days.
If you kill one terrorist and two more spring up to replace him, what have you
accomplished?
>> By the way, what about the two million Christians who live in Lebanon? I
>guess
>> killing them is fine too?
>I didn't say anything about killing anybody except the terrorist members
>of Hizballah. If the target is in a civilian neighborhood I advocate
>destroying it. Israel has done their best to forewarn the populace, by
Okay, so once you've destroyed that civilian neighborhood, what next?
>way of radio and leaflets, to get out of the way. They also allowed the
>networks to see their troops and armor massing on the border. What kind
>of military does that? They tell the enemy what's coming for them and
What is their other option? Make their troops invisible so nobody can see
them massing at the border?
Seeing troops massing at borders is trivial. There is nothing amazing about it.
>where it is. Or, it could be, they want to warn the civilians about what's
>about to happen. At any rate, I'm not about to quaver and wring my
Even the Nazis dropped leaflets on future targets telling them of their plans to
blow up their cities. I don't see anyone suggesting we should give them
posthumous medals for having done so.
The purpose is as much psychological warfare and propaganda, and pointing
out the helplessness of the target to protect themselves. It is not
altruistic.
>hands because the target is where it is. What do you want to do? Give
>the terrorists a freeroll from now to eternity? They must be confronted
>and destroyed before they destroy us.
The question is if your intention is to actually end the root causes of
terrorism or throw a tantrum to show them what big balls you have.
Israel appears to have chosen the latter, and either doesn't care whether
their actions have a positive result, or else Likud is actually cynically
provoking terrorism deliberately in order to have a platform to run
for reelection on.
>You'll notice that Hizballah is located in Shia neighborhoods, not
>Christian neighborhoods. Why is that?
Possibly because it's a Shia group?
But if you blow up the only radio and
television stations, water pumps, electrical power plants, and other
civilian infrastructure of Lebanon, you are not merely harming Shias
or Hezbollah members. In fact, you are moving people from
Hezbollah sympathizers to joiners. They are no less safe as members
of Hezbollah than just as civilians.
If you view a 'freeroll' as an option of first order stochastic dominance
over another option, then joining Hezbollah is itself a freeroll.
You can not belong to Hezbollah, and have bombs dropped on you
and your country destroyed, and have no response whatsoever to
this except to sit there helplessly, or you can be a member of Hezbollah
and have the same thing happen, except as a member, you are able
to retaliate. So it is no surprise that people will join in the wake of
this. It's not like they're getting any brownie points for not joining.
Hezbollah has provided hospitals, schools, agricultural assistance,
social programs, news services, and other basic infrastructure projects
that the central government is either unwilling, or too corrupt and
incompetent to perform.
So you expect people to hate those who provide them services, and
love people who drop bombs on them. No human beings will ever
act like that. They'd have to be fools to.
They will hate and attack Israel as long as they have reason to.
Expecting them not to is insane, that is, doing the same thing again
and again and expecting different results. It is as insane as
Osama bin Laden thinking that destroying the World Trade Center
would make Americans give in to his demands.
When people are attacked, they fight back, sometimes rationally
and sometimes irrationally. Destroying an entire country because
two people were kidnapped is irrationally. Suicide bombing is
irrationally.
Incidentally, Israel kidnapped two people in the days
before the Hezbollah kidnapping, but this is completely unmentioned
in the media, probably because it interferes with the fantasy of a
holy, snow-white Israel being beset by evil unprovoked attacks.
But after all, the Lebanese aren't even human, so it's all okay.
Israel's kidnappings are the work of God while Hezbollah's are
terrorism.
But regardless of these facts, a rational actor, faced with a situation,
chooses actions which are likely to lead to a desired result. What
desired result is achieved by destroying Lebanon without even appreciably
harming Hezbollah?
It has more the look of an angry tantrum by a nation in an insane rage,
randomly killing people because it can't get to the people it is actually
angry at, than a rational action taken to end a threat.
Do you think that people without water and electricity are more or less
likely to join a resistance group opposed to the people who destroyed their
electricity and water? Who do you think is going to be right there
helping rebuild the infrastructure when the Israeli frenzy is over? It
is going to be Hezbollah again. And do you think people are going to be
more or less likely to join a resistance group which is right there helping
them rebuild their homes and farms and businesses?
The fact is that Hezbollah is an extremist group which engages in terrorism.
But they've been given an awful lot to be extreme about, and they enjoy
broad popular support because of it. They rally around the destruction of
Israel as a cause, because it is a popular cause. If there were less reason
for it to be popular, they'd find a different slogan.
A resistance movement given less to resist becomes less extreme. For
example, you don't see Sinn Fein calling for physical attacks on the
British any more, because they have achieved a lot of their goals.
Economic prosperity clears up a lot of the reasons that people fight.
By comparison, keeping people in helpless, dire poverty, destroying their
property, killing their families, and obliterating their countries creates
people with nothing to lose who will do anything to get revenge.
On Jul 24 2006 3:42 AM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 02:08:21 -0700, "Howard Beale"
> wrote:
>
> >On Jul 24 2006 2:14 AM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
>
> >> On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 00:42:18 -0700, "Howard Beale"
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >On Jul 23 2006 5:43 PM, William Coleman wrote:
>
> >> >> "Howard Beale" wrote in message
> >> >> news:elbdp3x...@recgroups.com...
> >> >> > On Jul 23 2006 3:54 PM, BillB wrote:
>
> >> >> >> Pictures > http://tinyurl.com/k2qkh
>
> >> >> >> Story > http://tinyurl.com/oz98q
>
> >> >> > Those pictures, and the article, mention SOUTHERN Beirut only.
> >> >> > SOUTHERN
> >> >> > Beirut, the capital city of Hizballahstan.
>
> >> >> So fucking what??? Do you think no innocent civilians live there? You
> >> >> still do not understand the concept of the war crime of collective
> >> >> punishment. You cannot drop bombs to kill terrorists if it is
> >predictable
> >> >> that innocent civilians will be killed.
>
> >> >Drop them, I say. I'm not going to play by the terrorist's rules.
>
> >> Those ARE a terrorist's rules.
>
> >Suggest another way to destroy them.
>
> Destroy whom?
The people who want to kill me.
Everyone who might possibly become Hezbollah in response
> to Israel's crazed responses? I suppose you could kill all Arabs.
Suppose all you like, I didn't say it and I would never say it.
That seems
> to be a fashionable opinion these days.
You may be upset with what I have to say but this part is silly.
>
> If you kill one terrorist and two more spring up to replace him, what have you
> accomplished?
>
> >> By the way, what about the two million Christians who live in Lebanon? I
> >guess
> >> killing them is fine too?
>
> >I didn't say anything about killing anybody except the terrorist members
> >of Hizballah. If the target is in a civilian neighborhood I advocate
> >destroying it. Israel has done their best to forewarn the populace, by
>
> Okay, so once you've destroyed that civilian neighborhood, what next?
I meant the target, not the neighborhood. I can see where you might have
mistaken my meaning though.
>
> >way of radio and leaflets, to get out of the way. They also allowed the
> >networks to see their troops and armor massing on the border. What kind
> >of military does that? They tell the enemy what's coming for them and
>
> What is their other option? Make their troops invisible so nobody can see
> them massing at the border?
>
> Seeing troops massing at borders is trivial. There is nothing amazing about
> it.
>
> >where it is. Or, it could be, they want to warn the civilians about what's
> >about to happen. At any rate, I'm not about to quaver and wring my
>
> Even the Nazis dropped leaflets on future targets telling them of their plans
> to
> blow up their cities. I don't see anyone suggesting we should give them
> posthumous medals for having done so.
>
> The purpose is as much psychological warfare and propaganda, and pointing
> out the helplessness of the target to protect themselves. It is not
> altruistic.
Ok, my point was weak.
>
> >hands because the target is where it is. What do you want to do? Give
> >the terrorists a freeroll from now to eternity? They must be confronted
> >and destroyed before they destroy us.
>
> The question is if your intention is to actually end the root causes of
> terrorism or throw a tantrum to show them what big balls you have.
Here is our basic disagreement, I think. I think Israel has little to do with
the root causes of terrorism. It certainly wasn't the primary focus of OBL.
Israel left Lebanon and the UN certified the border but Hizballah claims there
is still Shaaba Farms in dispute. This is just an excuse. I think that the
root causes of terrorism is that the militant Muslims want to rule the world.
Yes, rule the world, starting with the re-establishment of their Caliphate.
There is no negotiating with them. They have declared war and I think it must
be fought like a war. Those who try to 'understand' them, who try to reason
with them are doomed to failure. They are willing to use any means necessary.
The response needn't be savage as I suppose you think it is at this time but it
must be effective. I say that in order to be effective we can't let them have
safe haven because we refuse to accept any civilian casualties.
I know your heart's in the right place and you think I'm cold and callous but I
assure you that the only reason I talk this way is because I am convinced that
if the Muslim fascists aren't stopped soon the calamity to follow will be beyond
measure.
> Israel appears to have chosen the latter, and either doesn't care whether
> their actions have a positive result, or else Likud is actually cynically
> provoking terrorism deliberately in order to have a platform to run
> for reelection on.
Likud is not in power. It's Kadima now:
http://kadimasharon.co.il/11-en/index.aspx
By it's completely unprovoked attack Hizballah in effect asked Israel if it
wanted to get crazy. Israel gave them their answer.
>
> >You'll notice that Hizballah is located in Shia neighborhoods, not
> >Christian neighborhoods. Why is that?
>
> Possibly because it's a Shia group?
And nobody not Shia would have anything to do with them even though they are all
Lebanese and only Hizballah was effective if forcing Israel out of Lebanon
because they don't want to live under Muslim fundamentalist's thumb.
>
> But if you blow up the only radio and
> television stations, water pumps, electrical power plants, and other
> civilian infrastructure of Lebanon, you are not merely harming Shias
> or Hezbollah members.
Of course. So what? What are you going to do if attacked? Not retaliate
because you are harming other people when it can't be avoided?
In fact, you are moving people from
> Hezbollah sympathizers to joiners. They are no less safe as members
> of Hezbollah than just as civilians.
>
> If you view a 'freeroll' as an option of first order stochastic dominance
> over another option, then joining Hezbollah is itself a freeroll.
> You can not belong to Hezbollah, and have bombs dropped on you
> and your country destroyed, and have no response whatsoever to
> this except to sit there helplessly, or you can be a member of Hezbollah
> and have the same thing happen, except as a member, you are able
> to retaliate. So it is no surprise that people will join in the wake of
> this. It's not like they're getting any brownie points for not joining.
>
You are far over-stating your argument. Civilians are not the primary target of
Israel's attacks. It is certainly more dangerous to a person's life to be a
member of Hizballah. You may it sound like Israel has rained down fire and
destruction without any regard to the targets they hit and I'm sure you know the
truth is otherwise.
> Hezbollah has provided hospitals, schools, agricultural assistance,
> social programs, news services, and other basic infrastructure projects
> that the central government is either unwilling, or too corrupt and
> incompetent to perform.
>
> So you expect people to hate those who provide them services, and
> love people who drop bombs on them. No human beings will ever
> act like that. They'd have to be fools to.
I didn't say anything of the sort. I want to destroy the people who want to
kill me. I don't care if they don't like me I just want to live my life in
peace the way I want to without having to worry about terrorists trying to kill
me.
>
> They will hate and attack Israel as long as they have reason to.
> Expecting them not to is insane, that is, doing the same thing again
> and again and expecting different results. It is as insane as
> Osama bin Laden thinking that destroying the World Trade Center
> would make Americans give in to his demands.
The Lebanese Christians and Druze didn't attack Israel. Why not? Why the
Shia's? What is the reason that they attacked Israel a couple of weeks ago?
Israel is out of Lebanon. Hizballah was victorious. What is the cause of their
hate and what is the reason they attacked at this time? There was no
provocation by Israel at all against Lebanon or Hizballah. The border had been
very quiet for years. Why did Hizballah attack?
Does this mean Israel must just sit there and take it?
>
> The fact is that Hezbollah is an extremist group which engages in terrorism.
> But they've been given an awful lot to be extreme about,
What, in the past 6 years?
and they enjoy
> broad popular support because of it.
Amongst the Shia, almost exclusively.
They rally around the destruction of
> Israel as a cause, because it is a popular cause.
Why? What has Israel got to do with Lebanon in the past 6 years?
If there were less reason
> for it to be popular, they'd find a different slogan.
>
> A resistance movement given less to resist becomes less extreme.
For crying out loud, WHAT is there to resist? ISRAEL IS GONE FROM LEBANON.
HIZBALLAH WON THAT BATTLE. WHAT ARE THEY RESISTING NOW?
For
> example, you don't see Sinn Fein calling for physical attacks on the
> British any more, because they have achieved a lot of their goals.
> Economic prosperity clears up a lot of the reasons that people fight.
>
> By comparison, keeping people in helpless, dire poverty, destroying their
> property, killing their families, and obliterating their countries creates
> people with nothing to lose who will do anything to get revenge.
The Israelis were not keeping the Lebanese in any condition at all. How can
you make the incredible insinuation that the Israelis had anything to do with
whatever condition the Lebanese were living in before the Lebanese attacked
Israel?
HB
_______________________________________________________________
Watch Lists, Block Lists, Favorites - http://www.recpoker.com
----------------------------------------
>
>That essay is one of the most appalling examples of Nazi thinking I have
>ever read. Not surprising that FL Turbo loves it.
>
Hey, dipshit.
When does your "hiatus" from posting start?
Dumb ole me thought it would start right after you declared it.
I'm glad you explained that it was going to start Real Soon Now.
It looks like you have enlisted your friend NEAL to take up the Jihad
in your absence.
Evidently that moronic Antisemitic Useful Fool thinks this is some
kind of binary group that will display pictures.
>Isn't this the same guy who wrote a learned essay justifying torture? I
>think it is. Mr. Dershowitz is a Jew. Clearly a Jewish Nazi.
>
>As I said Mr. Dershwitz is a Jew, and his ethnicity is clearly clouding his
>objectivity.
>
>His essay is nothing less than a justification of war crimes as an expedient
>necessity. Unfuckingbelievable!!!
>
>He is basically arguing for the repeal of the Geneva Conventions.
>
He is arguing that Terrorists have no claim to protection under the
Geneva Conventions.
>As I have repeatedly explained, using civilians as shields is a builtin
>tactical advantage of asymmetrical actors like Hizbollah. This is why these
>asymmetrical forces cannot be defeated by conventional military force,
>unless you commit war crimes.
>
The Geneva Conventions were established in great part to protect
civilians during a war.
The combatants were required to wear uniforms so as to identify them
as separate from innocent civilians.
Combatants who were captured on the battlefield without uniforms were
treated as spies, and were subject to being executed right on the
spot, no questions asked.
"Asymmetrical actors" have declared their contempt for any standards
at all, much less the Geneva Conventions.
They deserve no protection by Geneva Convention rules.
>So, are we going to commit war crimes, or are we going to concede that we
>cannot defeat actors like Hizbollah with military force?
>
It is quite the display of hypocrisy here, the Terrorists and their
Enablers jump up and quote the Geneva Conventions, demanding that
democracies like Israel follow them, with no such standards for the
Terrorists attacking them.
Your sentence above demonstrates exactly what Dershowitz was talking
about.
You are one of the many, "The Predictable Condemners".
>There is no third alternative I am aware of. This is the genius of Chairman
>Mao's rules for guerrilla warfare. Four simple rules hamstring the most
>powerful military in the world.
>
Yes, your Hero the Mass Murderer Mao.
I forget whether Mao is #1 or #2 on the Mass Murderer's List along
with Joseph Stalin.
In any event, Adolph Schikelgrubber was an also-ran compared to that
pair.
>Suck it up. International capitalist imperialism can no longer invade and
>occupy countries without expecting a serious guerrilla insurgency which
>cannot be defeated with military force.
>
Just like a bottle blond that gets betrayed when her dark roots start
showing, you betray your Communist self with material right out of
your little Red Book.
What a Hypocritical Fraud you are.
The ICC?
Is that the group I'm thinking of?
Their trial of Slobbo Milosivic was going into its third (4th?) year,
when the inconsiderate bastard went and died.
I think that's the one.
Presumably that trial would still be going on today if the guy hadn't
expressed his contempt for that court by dying.
Presumably, the ICC would explain very carefully to Mr. Dershowitz
about how Israel was expected to follow the Geneva Conventions, but
Hezbollah, being "asymmetric actors", should not be expected to do so.
International Clown Court is a better name for that batch of frauds.
It's called free speech. Shall I quote the first amendment to you?
> If someone did this to
> you you would tell them it is impossible to evaluate sanity over the
> internet.
Yes, I would. But I would not tell them they have no right to express that
opinion. Nor, when I express the opinion that some one is insane, do I
claim that I am qualified to make that diagnosis based on their internet
writings. You, on the other hand, have explicitly told me that you are
qualified to evaluate my sanity based on my internet writings. See the
difference?
> Hypocrite
There is nothing hypocritical about what I have said on this subject. You
obviously do not understand the meaning of the word.
William Coleman (ramashiva)
> The ICC?
> Is that the group I'm thinking of?
>
> Their trial of Slobbo Milosivic was going into its third (4th?) year,
> when the inconsiderate bastard went and died.
> I think that's the one.
No you are thinking of the ICTY, but I'm sure you'd hate the ICC too if you
knew what it was. It also involves international cooperation.
> They deserve no protection by Geneva Convention rules.
ummm..you realize the Fourth Geneva Convention protects *civilians*, right?
Surely you aren't saying civilians deserve no protection?
Yes, that is because you are a warmonger who supports war crimes.
> I'm not going to play by the terrorist's rules.
No one is asking you to play by terrorist rules. We are asking you to play
by the rules of international law, as codified in the Geneva Conventions.
Did I mention that the Geneva Conventions are the supreme law of the land of
the United States of America? Why don't you read the Constitution sometime?
> That is a war crime.
>
>
> So sayeth the Hon. W. Coleman, now presiding.
So sayeth the Secretary General of the United Nations, who I am quite sure
knows more about international law than you do.
Quite telling that you offer no argument whatsoever as to why the Israelis
actions in Lebanon do not constitute war crimes.
>> One of the builtin advantages of an asymettrical force like Hizbollah is
>> that they can hide behind civilians. That is why is is so hard to defeat
>> them.
>
> I wouldn't let them get away with hiding.
Then you are a war criminal.
> They must be rooted out and killed.
First of all, I have demonstrated with logical precision that Israel cannot
destroy Hizbollah. Second of all, I see no reason whatsoever why Hizbollah
must be rooted out and killed. That may be on Israel's agenda, but it is
not on mine.
>> > And it's not flat enough. Go
>> > on and mention the other targets designed to destroy Hizballah,
>>
>> It doesn't matter if the intention was to destroy Hizbollah. Your
>> intention
>> is not what's important. If you could reasonably expect innocent
>> civilians
>> to be killed, you cannot drop the bomb. To do so is a war crime.
>
> How naive can a person be? I'm not playing by their rules.
I didn't ask you to play by their rules. I asked you to play by the rules
of the Geneva Conventions, which are the supreme law of the land of the
United States of America.
> They want to
> shoot at me while hiding amongst civilians and I can't shoot back?
That is a strawman argument. If someone is actually shooting at you, of
course you can shoot back. If innocent civilians are killed as a result,
you have committed no war crime.
The situation in Lebanon is quite different. When you drop a bomb on a
house because you think terrorists are there, no one is actually shooting at
you. Therefore you must be reasonably certain that no innocent civilians
will be killed.
> Are you so simple?
No, but you are.
>> Please read the Geneva Conventions and get back to me.
>>
>> > I don't care.
>>
>> This is obvious. Do you really think you are a decent human being when
>> you
>> rationalize war crimes?
>
> A lot more decent than most.
Do you think decent human beings support and condone war crimes?
>> > Israel is doing the world's heavy lifting here.
>>
>> Oh bullshit. Hizbollah is a threat to no one but Israel. Don't try to
>> scare us with the terrorist boogeyman of Islamofascism.
>
> How big is your head? I ask because I want to know the size of the hole
> you had to dig in the sand.
Look, you and other Islamophobes are trying to scare the shit out of
everyone by claiming that the Islamofascists want to take over the world and
kill everyone. I am not buying it. Nor is any rational person. That may
be what some of the most crazed Islamofascists want, but the idea that they
have now or ever will have the capacity to achieve these grandiose goals is
laughable.
>> > If they lose I
>> > hope I live long enough to see Hizballah come for you
>>
>> Hizbollah is not going to come for me, asshole. Stop trying to scare the
>> shit out of everyone.
>
>
>>
>> > for it is not
>> > Israel's destruction they seek but world domination.
>>
>> You are clinically insane Howard.
>
> Thank you, Dr. Coleman, that explains many things.
>
>
> Hizbollah wants Israel to give their land
>> back, nothing more.
>
> What land? The UN certified the border as accurate. Shaaba Farms is
> 'contested' just as an excuse.
I am not talking about a specific territorial dispute. I am talking about
the land which Israel is still occupying as a result of the 1967 War
> That's the UN, Secretary Coleman. You are
> pretty deluded to think they just want their land back. And who are they
> to demand anything?
They are human beings. Every human being has the right to make demands.
> They are not the government.
They have been the effective government of southern Lebanon for a long time.
> "World domination"??? LMFAO!.
>>
>> > Do you think you can do any business with a group called 'The Party of
>> > God'?
>>
>> How can you expect to do any business with Jews who think they are God's
>> chosen people and they think this justifies genocide and war crimes in
>> the
>> name of national defense?
>
> Go live with Hizballah. I'll pay your airfare. Go on and live by their
> rules. See how far you get.
I would be welcomed as a Christian brother, no question.
>> > How anybody with
>> > Western values, liberal values especially, can oppose a war against
>> > Nazis
>> > is beyond me.
>>
>> Then you understand nothing. Israel has become a national security
>> police
>> state committing genocide and war crimes. The Jews have become Nazis
>> themselves. Don't tell me any different. They are no better than the
>> Islamofascists they are fighting.
>
> The Islamofascists are the most illiberal people I know.
I agree.
> They are horrible.
I agree.
> How you can support them in any way whatsover amazes me.
I do not support them in any way. I object to Israeli war crimes in
Lebanon. Apparently you think that objection to Israeli war crimes
constitutes support for Hizbollah.
>> Most liberals in this country used to be strong supporters of Israel.
>> Not
>> anymore. We didn't sign on for genocide and war crimes. Have you seen a
>> single liberal poster speak up in defense of Israel? You need to think
>> about what this means. Do not tell me we are all turncoats or terrorist
>> sycophants or Jew Haters. That seems to be the criticism of the Nazi
>> assholes on RGP who blindly support Israeli genocide and war crimes.
>>
>> > They are deadly serious in their resolve and those who
>> > don't want to live under their thumb had better be even more so.
>>
>> They are deadly serious in their determination to get their land back
>> from
>> Israel. Don't make us laugh with this world domination bullshit. Do you
>> seriously think the Islamofascists now or ever will represent a threat to
>> the security of the USA, beyond the obvious terrorist threat?
>
> You are deluded. Again.
I make a logical factual argument. Your response is that I am deluded. Who
is delusional here?
>> > And what is all this talk of 'disproportionate response'?
>>
>> It is a disproportionate response to kill hundreds of innocent civilians
>> in
>> response to two of your soldiers being kidnapped.
>>
>> > All my adult
>> > life I've heard the 'cycle of violence' decried. It looks like this
>> > time
>> > Israel wants to end the cycle.
>>
>> If you think Israel's actions will do anything but greatly escalate the
>> level of violence, you are clueless.
>
> Good. ONWARD TO DAMASCUS!!!!
As I have previously indicated, any serious attempt by Israel to destroy
Syria will inevitably result in the total destruction of Israel.
>> And you are even more clueless if you think Israel will ever destroy
>> Hizbollah. See my post "OT: The limits of military force" for more
>> details.
>>
>> Right now, you have gullibly swallowed a bunch of nonsense from the
>> right-wing in America and Israel about the Islamofascists wanting to
>> dominate the world. They may want to, but it ain't gonna happen.
I see you have no response at all to the above two paragraphs.
>>
>>
>> William Coleman (ramashiva)
>
>
> Thank you for the response. It was most satisfactory. I knew I could
> count on you.
Howard, you can always count on me to be logical and objective, qualities
which you lack.
You have previously told me you are a moderate. I told you then that, in my
experience, people who claim to be moderates invariably turn out to be
right-wing nutcases.
You have now shown yourself to be a right-wing nutcase. You are a
warmongering Islamophobic supporter of Israeli genocide and war crimes.
The only RGP posters who are agreeing with you are all well known to be
right-wing nutcases. Do I need to name them? Mo Ron Charles, Irish Mike,
Paul G, FL Turbo, etc.
Not a single liberal poster agrees with you, Howard. When all the
right-wing nutcases agree with you, and none of the liberals do, how can you
tell me with a straight face that you are a moderate?
William Coleman (ramashiva)
Why should he suggest another way to destroy them? That is your goal. It
is not mine.
>
>> By the way, what about the two million Christians who live in Lebanon? I
> guess
>> killing them is fine too?
>
> I didn't say anything about killing anybody except the terrorist members
> of Hizballah.
Actually you did. You said it was OK to bomb civilian neighborhoods if the
goal was to kill members of Hizbollah. When you know innocent civilians
will be killed as a result, you are condoning the killing of innocent
civilians.
Your argument boils down to the assertion that the ends justifies the means.
That is an evil and pernicious doctrine. It comes straight from Satan.
> If the target is in a civilian neighborhood I advocate destroying it.
Like I said, you advocate killing innocent civilians.
> Israel has done their best to forewarn the populace, by
> way of radio and leaflets, to get out of the way.
Warning that you are going to bomb an area does not absolve you of the crime
of killing innocent civilians. What is your argument? It's there own
fault? They should have listened to the warnings?
> They also allowed the
> networks to see their troops and armor massing on the border.
Are you suggesting there should be no news coverage of the war? Why? So no
one can see the war crimes the Israelis are committing? The whole world is
watching, Howard. Israel must play by the rules, even if Hizbollah doesn't.
Otherwise, Israel is no better than Hizbollah.
> What kind of military does that?
Other than using military force to silence news coverage, the Israelis are
powerless to prevent coverage of the war by the major news organizations of
the world.
> They tell the enemy what's coming for them and where it is.
No, they are not telling the enemy anything. They are broadcasting the
news. The media have no control over who watches the news.
> Or, it could be, they want to warn the civilians about what's about to
> happen.
The media have one purpose -- to report news stories that are newsworthy.
Are you suggesting the current Israel/Lebanon War is not newsworthy?
> At any rate, I'm not about to quaver and wring my
> hands because the target is where it is.
Then you support war crimes.
> What do you want to do?
I want Israel to reach a comprehensive peace settlement with all Palestinian
groups, including Hamas and Hizbollah.
> Give the terrorists a freeroll from now to eternity?
No one is giving the terrorists a freeroll. Israel can kill as many
terrorists as they want, as long as they follow the rules of war.
> They must be confronted and destroyed
Why must they be confronted and destroyed? That is your agenda, not mine.
> before they destroy us.
I assure you, Howard, Hizbollah is no threat to destroy us. Warmongering
Islamophobes like you are much more likely to cause my personal destruction.
See my post "OT: Bush and Rice will get us all killed" for more details.
> You'll notice that Hizballah is located in Shia neighborhoods, not
> Christian neighborhoods. Why is that?
Because Hizbollah effectively represents all the Shia in Lebanon, that's
why.
William Coleman (ramashiva)
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