Ping Paul - VP question

[risky biz]

Aren't these pretty good pay tables?

DW -- Deuces Wild   100.76%
DB -- Double Bonus   100.17%
LDW -- Loose Deuces Wild   100.15%
SBDW -- SB Deuces Wild   100.13%
DDB -- Double Double Bonus  100.07%

. . and isn't this about the best that can be found?

LDW -- Loose Deuces Wild 101.6%


I'm not going to use that Downtown Grand promotion. Don't really want to go Downtown and don't want to have to come back three times to get it.

I'm considering learning VP for the points at a casino closer to home with a good buffet.

[risky biz]

And which of the first five games listed would you choose to play? Is there something more important than just the pay tables?

[Paul Popinjay]

You're a little late to be thinking about those games for points and comps. And I literally mean a little, because it was not very long ago that you could get a lot of stuff playing those. But they are losing their benefits as we speak. For instance, the DB 100.17 progressive (for quarters) at Four Queens just cut their points in half about a month ago for what you'll earn on those game. That was a good play, and still is, but not as good as it was. Last week, The D pulled out their 4 DB machines for quarters (100.17). Double Bonus is a difficult game to learn, so I thought it would be around for a long time. But the end is near.

Stations offers all of these positive games, but you barely get any points, and they punish you for playing them. They will stop your mailer. However, if you want to earn about $8 or $9 an hour they have plenty of FPDW 100.76 for quarters. I personally would play them without my card in the machine. The points are very minimal, no mailers, and it flags you as a FPDW player.

Ten years ago there was FPDW all over the place. Now, not so much. Even Sam's cut their ten machines down to two, about two months ago. The Palms has some FPDW, but no points, no promotions.

Seems like just a few years ago there were two banks of FPDW progressives in town. Palms, and Fiesta Rancho. Fiesta Rancho was great. It had a good meter, and they didn't punish you. Alas, they're both gone.

Nowadays they are even cutting back on the Jacks-or-better at 99.54%. There's still plenty around, though, but it's getting slim on benefits too.

The Loose Deuces, you probably don't want to fuck with. Very high variance. And that one with 101.6 is a 5-cent game at The D. (Remind me to tell you sometime about the fiasco at Orleans with that game).

If you are looking for a basic game where you won't be punished and there are still plenty of promos and points and buffets, I would work on learning your basic Bonus Poker. (99.16%) With many promos, you can play it positive, and earn stuff.

Risky, I can't tell you everything I personally would do. Plus, I have some secret spots.

Bonus Poker can be played with the same strategy as Jacks-or-better and only giving up a very tiny bit of EV. Actually, the perfect strategy for BP is much more complicated than the perfect strategy for 9-6 JoB. Wanna know why? Because of the 5 for a flush. It makes it more complicated. 9-6 JoB, in fact, is very easy to learn to play perfect. There are only six differences between Basic Strategy and Advanced Perfect Strategy.

If you don't want to hang out downtown, it might help if you'd tell me what part of town you would like to play.

By the way, for YEARS the best deal in town was at Ellis Island. I don't know what happened, but about three months ago someone came in and fucked that up so bad I would not even play there now. Unbelieveable idiot. Gosh, they had the best slot club, great benefits, lots of good food and good microbrew. Now it's fucked. I hope they see the light and come to their senses.

I could go on and on, but I know this is already at TL/DNR stage.

[risky biz]

The top pay tables are for Red Rock.

I knew the Loose Deuces Wild 101.6% at the 'D' was less than a quarter but 5c is laughable.

Red Rock is promoting 10x points on Wednesdays but it sounds like they probably don't include VP and if they stop the 2 for 1 buffet mailer, forget it. $8 or $9 an hour doesn't motivate me, either.

I'm going to focus on their Texas Hold'Em Heads Up machines and try to play without the card in. If they lower the reporting requirement to $600 that's going to be difficult. I'm going to have to pump some casino personnel for more info on how the reporting requirements work.

Nothing to worry about, though, if the chip beats the hell out of me.

[Paul Popinjay]

On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 10:21:40 PM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:



>
> The top pay tables are for Red Rock.
>
> I knew the Loose Deuces Wild 101.6% at the 'D' was less than a quarter but 5c is laughable.
>
> Red Rock is promoting 10x points on Wednesdays but it sounds like they probably don't include VP and if they stop the 2 for 1 buffet mailer, forget it. $8 or $9 an hour doesn't motivate me, either.
>
> I'm going to focus on their Texas Hold'Em Heads Up machines and try to play without the card in. If they lower the reporting requirement to $600 that's going to be difficult. I'm going to have to pump some casino personnel for more info on how the reporting requirements work.
>
> Nothing to worry about, though, if the chip beats the hell out of me.

Red Rock has 8-5 Bonus Poker progressives. That would be my advise to you. Also, between Red Rock, Suncoast, and Ramparts, you could do well. If you're serious, I would recommend working those three casinos.

[risky biz]

I'll look at them the next time I'm there. What at-or-above level should I be looking for on a progressive?

[Paul Popinjay]

On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 10:50:57 PM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:


>
> I'll look at them the next time I'm there. What at-or-above level should I be looking for on a progressive?

At $1400 BP is break-even. However, you do need to be aware of strategy changes. Playing progressives is a challenge and very fun in my opinion. Stations is going to give you .3 to .6 percent free play, depending on the day, and then they will send you monthly mailers also with free play. I am not sure sure what percent on the mailers but it should work out ok, and always look for the highest jackpot. By the way, in that neck of the woods, Santa Fe has some good games too, also BP progressive, and also Stations. Typically your mailer will be generated after skipping a month. Let's say you give them 20K action in June. You will get no mailer in July, but that action will generate mailers in August, Sept, and October. You'll get some food offers, probably. You will also get some multiplier offers, like maybe 4X points instead of 3X on certain days. Maybe $50 or more free play each month, probably more. I would appreciate it if you let me know what you get down the road.

Suncoast is always having good promos, and buffet promos.

Ramparts has a good program too, some different games, though.

First thing you want to do is get some software. WinPoker, Video Poker for Winners, Wolf Video Poker, are all good and I have all three. Each one is different. You cannot play this game intuitively without making a bunch of mistakes. You need practice software.

[risky biz]

Thanks. That'll get me started on it. I just printed a BP strategy from one site but will be looking for others and comparing. I'll definitely check out the practice software later.

Red Rock is a Station casino and their buffet is much better than either Suncoast or Rampart plus they have the Texas Hold'Em Heads Up machines. The Rampart buffet is not that great. I'm surprised they don't have a better one.

I'll keep you updated.

[risky biz]

The only Bonus Poker machines I can find at Red Rock Casino that are progressive are three line 6/5. That doesn't sound like a good deal.

It also amazes me that an 8/5 Bonus Poker game can be right next to other identical ones which are 7/5 and 6/5.

[Paul Popinjay]

On Wednesday, May 20, 2015 at 1:11:07 PM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:



>
> The only Bonus Poker machines I can find at Red Rock Casino that are progressive are three line 6/5. That doesn't sound like a good deal.
>
> It also amazes me that an 8/5 Bonus Poker game can be right next to other identical ones which are 7/5 and 6/5.

Rocks Lounge Bar

one side of the Sportsbook Bar

[risky biz]

LOL. Like Indiana Jones. Jesus.

BTW- I notice that in the last week every time I go look at the 3 Texas Hold'Em Heads Up machines at Red Rock 1 or 2 of them have a player. I would have played that this morning but didn't want to sit between two other people.

[da pickle]

This has been a most interesting and informative thread. We should have
more of them.

[Maverick]

I agree, but at this point, actual gambling threadx are almost off topic around here.

[Maverick]

Paul, could you list for us what you consider to be the best websites for slots?

[drwhod...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 11:38:01 PM UTC-5, Paul Popinjay wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 8:32:01 PM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 8:23:45 PM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:
> > > Aren't these pretty good pay tables?
> > >
> > > DW -- Deuces Wild   100.76%
> > > DB -- Double Bonus   100.17%
> > > LDW -- Loose Deuces Wild   100.15%
> > > SBDW -- SB Deuces Wild   100.13%
> > > DDB -- Double Double Bonus  100.07%
> > >
> > > . . and isn't this about the best that can be found?
> > >
> > > LDW -- Loose Deuces Wild 101.6%
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm not going to use that Downtown Grand promotion. Don't really want to go Downtown and don't want to have to come back three times to get it.
> > >
> > > I'm considering learning VP for the points at a casino closer to home with a good buffet.
> >
> > And which of the first five games listed would you choose to play? Is there something more important than just the pay tables?
>
>
>
> You're a little late to be thinking about those games for points and comps. And I literally mean a little, because it was not very long ago that you could get a lot of stuff playing those. But they are losing their benefits as we speak. For instance, the DB 100.17 progressive (for quarters) at Four Queens just cut their points in half about a month ago for what you'll earn on those game. That was a good play, and still is, but not as good as it was.

The 4Queens DB play was good because of all the added value. The prog added value. Generous (by today's standards)cash back of something like .3. And marketing bounce back and other promotions. Note --You will end up playing the club and promotions as much as you do the game.

> Last week, The D pulled out their 4 DB machines for quarters (100.17). >Double Bonus is a difficult game to learn, so I thought it would be around for >a long time. But the end is near.

The D's FP machines are pretty ancient. I understand they had a very nice promotion recently

>
> Stations offers all of these positive games, but you barely get any points, and they punish you for playing them. They will stop your mailer. However, if you want to earn about $8 or $9 an hour they have plenty of FPDW 100.76 for quarters. I personally would play them without my card in the machine. The points are very minimal, no mailers, and it flags you as a FPDW player.
>
> Ten years ago there was FPDW all over the place. Now, not so much. Even Sam's cut their ten machines down to two, about two months ago. The Palms has some FPDW, but no points, no promotions.
>
> Seems like just a few years ago there were two banks of FPDW progressives in town. Palms, and Fiesta Rancho. Fiesta Rancho was great. It had a good meter, and they didn't punish you. Alas, they're both gone.
>
> Nowadays they are even cutting back on the Jacks-or-better at 99.54%. There's still plenty around, though, but it's getting slim on benefits too.
>
> The Loose Deuces, you probably don't want to fuck with. Very high variance. And that one with 101.6 is a 5-cent game at The D. (Remind me to tell you sometime about the fiasco at Orleans with that game).
>
> If you are looking for a basic game where you won't be punished and there are still plenty of promos and points and buffets, I would work on learning your basic Bonus Poker. (99.16%) With many promos, you can play it positive, and earn stuff.
>
> Risky, I can't tell you everything I personally would do. Plus, I have some secret spots.
>
> Bonus Poker can be played with the same strategy as Jacks-or-better and only giving up a very tiny bit of EV. Actually, the perfect strategy for BP is much more complicated than the perfect strategy for 9-6 JoB. Wanna know why? Because of the 5 for a flush. It makes it more complicated. 9-6 JoB, in fact, is very easy to learn to play perfect. There are only six differences between Basic Strategy and Advanced Perfect Strategy.

Perfect play is not essential to profitable vp. I seldom mess with penalty cards. Recognize profitable situations and know the penalty free strategy well and you'll be good enough to make money.... if there is money to be made. JB/BP strategy is a good place to start.

>
> If you don't want to hang out downtown, it might help if you'd tell me what part of town you would like to play.
>
> By the way, for YEARS the best deal in town was at Ellis Island. I don't know what happened, but about three months ago someone came in and fucked that up so bad I would not even play there now. Unbelieveable idiot. Gosh, they had the best slot club, great benefits, lots of good food and good microbrew. Now it's fucked. I hope they see the light and come to their senses.
>
> I could go on and on, but I know this is already at TL/DNR stage.

I haven't been to EI in a very long time... LVA coupons, brews, a cheap steak dinner and a bath tub craps table.

C

[Paul Popinjay]

On Wednesday, May 20, 2015 at 2:07:21 PM UTC-7, Maverick wrote:


>
> Paul, could you list for us what you consider to be the best websites for slots?

I'm not clear on what you are asking, Mav. I don't play much slots, and now all the websites I used to play are off limits in the United States. Still, I don't think I am addressing your question correctly.

[Paul Popinjay]

On Wednesday, May 20, 2015 at 2:52:20 PM UTC-7, drwhod...@gmail.com wrote:


>
> The 4Queens DB play was good because of all the added value. The prog added value. Generous (by today's standards)cash back of something like .3. And marketing bounce back and other promotions. Note --You will end up playing the club and promotions as much as you do the game.
>

To be clear, it is only that one bank where they reduced the points earned.

>
> The D's FP machines are pretty ancient. I understand they had a very nice promotion recently
>

Lasted a weekend, I think, before pulling the plug.

>
> Perfect play is not essential to profitable vp. I seldom mess with penalty cards. Recognize profitable situations and know the penalty free strategy well and you'll be good enough to make money.... if there is money to be made. JB/BP strategy is a good place to start.
>

But there's really no excuse not to know perfect play with 9-6 JoB, since it is so easy. Beyond that, you have a point. But I am interested in knowing perfect play, especially with 5-flush games, because it makes me think about the game and keeps me awake. Sure, the EV I gain is negligible, but I believe just thinking that much more about the game has many benefits.

>
> I haven't been to EI in a very long time... LVA coupons, brews, a cheap steak dinner and a bath tub craps table.
>

I would honestly say it went from the BEST slot club in Vegas to the WORST slot club in Vegas, in one swoop. The owner or new manager really fucked things up. Not only that, it included a very shitty move. All those people who had played and earned future mailers, were fucked out of those mailers. Literally hundreds of dollars for many people. I don't understand why they don't want to completely boycott that place because it was such a bad way to treat longtime loyal players. I really hope they get it jammed up their ass.

[drwhod...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, May 20, 2015 at 5:50:00 PM UTC-5, Paul Popinjay wrote:

> >
>
> To be clear, it is only that one bank where they reduced the points earned.

And the $ DB prog which was reduced long ago. The $DB non progressives were still good last time I was there... which was some time ago. They seemed to get a fair amount of intelligent action.

>
>
>
> >
> > The D's FP machines are pretty ancient. I understand they had a very nice promotion recently
> >
>
>
> Lasted a weekend, I think, before pulling the plug.

I did not know it was scheduled for any longer. It sounded good. I had a button launch itself over my head while playing one of the ancient NSUD machines last year. Very exciting.

>
>
> >
> > Perfect play is not essential to profitable vp. I seldom mess with penalty cards. Recognize profitable situations and know the penalty free strategy well and you'll be good enough to make money.... if there is money to be made. JB/BP strategy is a good place to start.
> >
>
>
> But there's really no excuse not to know perfect play with 9-6 JoB, since it is so easy. Beyond that, you have a point. But I am interested in knowing perfect play, especially with 5-flush games, because it makes me think about the game and keeps me awake. Sure, the EV I gain is negligible, but I believe just thinking that much more about the game has many benefits.

Thinking hurts. RGP is a pain free zone.

>
>
> >
> > I haven't been to EI in a very long time... LVA coupons, brews, a cheap steak dinner and a bath tub craps table.
> >
>
>
> I would honestly say it went from the BEST slot club in Vegas to the WORST slot club in Vegas, in one swoop. The owner or new manager really fucked things up. Not only that, it included a very shitty move. All those people who had played and earned future mailers, were fucked out of those mailers. Literally hundreds of dollars for many people. I don't understand why they don't want to completely boycott that place because it was such a bad way to treat longtime loyal players. I really hope they get it jammed up their ass.

The way of the world. I remember vp CB of .6% or better, generous bounce, comps, marketing and 100%+ games... and I got in far from the beginning. I guess it's just possible there is someplace with marketing offers strong enough to cover my expenses for a trip out to LV, but these days I look at it as just another vacation destination. If I look at it at all.

C

[Paul Popinjay]

On Thursday, May 21, 2015 at 5:59:08 AM UTC-7, drwhod...@gmail.com wrote:


>
> And the $ DB prog which was reduced long ago. The $DB non progressives were still good last time I was there... which was some time ago. They seemed to get a fair amount of intelligent action.
>

But correct me if I'm wrong, didn't they also downgrade the $-progressives to 9-6-5 DB? Wtf?

> >
> > Lasted a weekend, I think, before pulling the plug.
>
> I did not know it was scheduled for any longer. It sounded good. I had a button launch itself over my head while playing one of the ancient NSUD machines last year. Very exciting.
>

Sorry, I thought you meant the April 15th promo.

>
> The way of the world. I remember vp CB of .6% or better, generous bounce, comps, marketing and 100%+ games... and I got in far from the beginning. I guess it's just possible there is someplace with marketing offers strong enough to cover my expenses for a trip out to LV, but these days I look at it as just another vacation destination. If I look at it at all.
>
> C

I got into it physically when they pulled the plug on online. I started studying in 2001, but pretty much stayed in my bedroom working the wonderful world of bonuses and a few progressives. Before they pulled the plug I did make a few trips. Hilton had .55% cb and I think that was highest. Many on the Strip still had .33%. There was still FPDW for quarters everywhere. Cannery had a bank that gave 5X points and they didn't know it. El Cortez had FPJW for dollars and had not yet 86ed anyone for winning on them. Hacienda had dozens of FPJW for quarters, .25% cb and 4X points one day a week, 2X on another, and a Card-of-the-Day. Stations still gave 1 point for $1 coin-in on positive games, but the points were for comps only. The progressive FPDW at Fiesta Rancho was frequently in the $1300s. They still had FP Pick'em at Bally's, Hilton, Fremont, and All American at Hilton. Key Largo had frequent point multipliers and FPJW at 101% with the 4700 royal. Several Downtown Deuces at Las Vegas Club, and El Cortez. Sams Town had a special Sams Town Deuces worth 100.9 upstairs next to full pay but high variance One-eyed-Jacks. I think the Strat still had some 10-6 and 9-7 JoB.

Story of my life, I caught the bus just as it was leaving. But there's still plenty to do there, just have to work harder. Dollar and up players have it a little different. I don't know any dollar players who have not been booted from at least one place.

[Paul Popinjay]

On Thursday, May 21, 2015 at 5:59:08 AM UTC-7, drwhod...@gmail.com wrote:



>

> The way of the world. I remember vp CB of .6% or better, generous bounce, comps, marketing and 100%+ games... and I got in far from the beginning. I guess it's just possible there is someplace with marketing offers strong enough to cover my expenses for a trip out to LV, but these days I look at it as just another vacation destination. If I look at it at all.
>
> C

Have you seen how Harrah's has been downgrading Bonus Poker all over the place in the last few months? Even downgrading 7-5 Bonus Poker. What a bunch of assholes.

[David Monaghan]

On Thu, 21 May 2015 09:46:06 -0700 (PDT), Paul Popinjay
<paulpo...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>Story of my life, I caught the bus just as it was leaving. But there's
>still plenty to do there, just have to work harder. Dollar and up players
>have it a little different. I don't know any dollar players who have not
>been booted from at least one place.

That's worrying. I like staying in Main Street and play dollar Double Bonus
there. That's been pretty profitable since I started playing it correctly,
so I hope my one week a year doesn't attract attention. Having said that, I
know Four Queens will welcome me back after this year's carnage.

DaveM

[Paul Popinjay]

On Thursday, May 21, 2015 at 3:16:33 PM UTC-7, David Monaghan wrote:


>
> That's worrying. I like staying in Main Street and play dollar Double Bonus
> there. That's been pretty profitable since I started playing it correctly,
> so I hope my one week a year doesn't attract attention. Having said that, I
> know Four Queens will welcome me back after this year's carnage.
>
> DaveM

I don't know how either treat out-of-towners but my gut tells me that Four Queens is the better play. Either way, Double Bonus has been called "an ugly game." I am not a dollar player, but if I was, I'd find myself a nice progressive on 8-5 Bonus Poker or 15-9-4-4 PNSU (98.91) with a $6000 or larger royal going. They're out there, and it might be kinder than Double Bonus. But before you go looking around town, check the bar at Four Queens cuz I think that PNSU is progressed on the dollar level, I know it is for halves.

Hey Dave, let me ask you a question. What are the scratchers at Main Street generally like for dollars?

[Maverick]

Paul, I've a couple times looked for the magical slot machines with the positive expectation and every time I've found a bank, there are locals at them growing moss.

[Paul Popinjay]

On Thursday, May 21, 2015 at 9:09:13 PM UTC-7, Maverick wrote:



>
> Paul, I've a couple times looked for the magical slot machines with the positive expectation and every time I've found a bank, there are locals at them growing moss.

If you're talking about slots and not video poker, there are actually some slots that can get positive. Back in the 90s there were many banking machines where you would "vulture" on equity left by someone else. There are still some machines like that, but, of course, any game with a progressive can become positive, it's just that it's difficult to know for sure what the "base game" is set at. With keno and video poker you can tell exactly what it's set at from the paytable, but slots are different.

You've probably noticed while walking through the casinos that nowadays there are a lot of "must-hit-by" machines. For instance, Quick Strikes, manufactured by Konami (in Vegas, I think on Russell), will typically have a major jackpot and a minor jackpot that continue to rise and must pay off at a certain point. Say the minor jackpot re-sets at $25 and must hit by $50. They don't just hit at random but are weighted toward the upper limit, although occasionally they hit at lower numbers (just for the fuck of it). I can't tell you how many times I have found these machines, usually on a Sunday or Monday morning after the weekend ploppies have played, and maybe a minor jackpot is sitting there at $47.35. If I spot one of these and a little old lady just happens to be in my way, I will push her out of my way and sit down fast. Let her pick up her walker by herself, you don't have time to help with that shit, I'm not a fucking Boy Scout. But it is important to see how fast the meter is going up so you will know what it takes to hit it. A good rate is 1% or over. A slow rate is 1/2% at the really tightass casinos, fucking assholes.

That is just one example of a must-hit-by. They come in many flavors, several manufacturers, and there are more on the floor all the time. In the California Indian joints, I find a lot of these ripe to hit because the people here are stupid. In Vegas, there's probably more vultures who have regular routes and swoop up any dead meat.

A very popular game called Quick Hits, by Bally, is also beatable. I could discuss that some other time. Games like Super 8 Race with the little yellow cars can be positive. I will play these at a certain point. Also, their sister game, Ring 'em Up, has a similar bonus feature and I will swoop on those too.

But mostly, I'm playing video poker. And in California I have found progressive keno that was advantageous. In Vegas there are a lot of progressive 6-spot keno, but most are set very slow meter rise and never reach positive. They typically re-set at $1600 and need to get to $2200 or $2300 depending on the exact paytable. If I had a casino I would set these much faster and advertise them. But I'm a gambler, not a suit.

[Maverick]

Are there websites listing all the current must-hit-by slots by casino? BTW, when I said slot, I meant VP...I'm new to slots and haven't learned to differentiate

[Paul Popinjay]

On Thursday, May 21, 2015 at 10:45:00 PM UTC-7, Maverick wrote:



>
> Are there websites listing all the current must-hit-by slots by casino? BTW, when I said slot, I meant VP...I'm new to slots and haven't learned to differentiate

Oh, well that's a different story. Have you got about five hours to listen to me rant?

No website that I know of, Mav, but there are bulletin boards with some useful info, and also with a lot of wannabees like RGP who spout off their opinions on how to play poker but don't know a semi-bluff from a hole in the ground. The best thing to do is walk through the casino floor. They're all the same, with must-hit-bys everywhere. Look for Quick Strike by Konami. A new one I've made a few bucks on is put out by Multimedia Games called Thundering Herd. I really like this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPcXgJ-3KA0

[risky biz]

That's right. Quarter progressive on one side of the bar and dollar progressive on the other. And they comp drinks while you're playing. So I'll start learning the strategy.

Looking forward to anything you have to say on Quick Strike and Quick Hits, also. I saw a Quick Strike this morning with a $41 minor jackpot but someone was parked on it.

[David Monaghan]

On Thu, 21 May 2015 15:43:46 -0700 (PDT), Paul Popinjay
<paulpo...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


>Hey Dave, let me ask you a question. What are the scratchers at Main
>Street generally like for dollars?

I've had them for quarter and dollar play and AFAIK they're the same -
mostly $2, occasionally $3. And now I'm going to keep my fingers crossed
that "scratchers" means the scratch cards for quads and isn't some American
colloquialism for Lord knows what!

DaveM

[Paul Popinjay]

On Friday, May 22, 2015 at 12:36:19 PM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:


>
> That's right. Quarter progressive on one side of the bar and dollar progressive on the other. And they comp drinks while you're playing. So I'll start learning the strategy.
>
> Looking forward to anything you have to say on Quick Strike and Quick Hits, also. I saw a Quick Strike this morning with a $41 minor jackpot but someone was parked on it.

I have some opinions on Quick Hits, and will try to address them at another time. Regarding the $41 Quick Strike, that's not high enough. Depending on how slow the meter rise is and the internal settings, you could lose a bundle trying to crack that $50.

So what were the jackpot amounts on the bar progressives at Red Rock?

By the way, of course they comp drinks while you're playing. Did you just move to Vegas?

However, I'm pretty sure Wynn and Encore do NOT comp drinks at the bar. It's ridiculous. They started that shit a few years ago and they are most assuredly the only assholes in Vegas who do not.

[Paul Popinjay]

On Friday, May 22, 2015 at 1:59:57 PM UTC-7, David Monaghan wrote:


>
> I've had them for quarter and dollar play and AFAIK they're the same -
> mostly $2, occasionally $3. And now I'm going to keep my fingers crossed
> that "scratchers" means the scratch cards for quads and isn't some American
> colloquialism for Lord knows what!
>
> DaveM

Ok, thanks. I figured the dollar scratchers would be $5 or so, minimum. I guess I was wrong. Thanks for the info.

[David Monaghan]

On Fri, 22 May 2015 14:45:15 -0700 (PDT), Paul Popinjay
<paulpo...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On Friday, May 22, 2015 at 1:59:57 PM UTC-7, David Monaghan wrote:

>> I've had them for quarter and dollar play and AFAIK they're the same -
>> mostly $2, occasionally $3. And now I'm going to keep my fingers crossed
>> that "scratchers" means the scratch cards for quads and isn't some American
>> colloquialism for Lord knows what!

>Ok, thanks. I figured the dollar scratchers would be $5 or so, minimum. I
>guess I was wrong. Thanks for the info.

You're welcome. Truth be told, I wondered if you were just checking, but
that would've been ok, too.

DaveM

[risky biz]

On Friday, May 22, 2015 at 2:43:34 PM UTC-7, Paul Popinjay wrote:
> On Friday, May 22, 2015 at 12:36:19 PM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:
>
>
> >
> > That's right. Quarter progressive on one side of the bar and dollar progressive on the other. And they comp drinks while you're playing. So I'll start learning the strategy.
> >
> > Looking forward to anything you have to say on Quick Strike and Quick Hits, also. I saw a Quick Strike this morning with a $41 minor jackpot but someone was parked on it.
>
>
>
> I have some opinions on Quick Hits, and will try to address them at another time. Regarding the $41 Quick Strike, that's not high enough. Depending on how slow the meter rise is and the internal settings, you could lose a bundle trying to crack that $50.

I was wondering if there is any way to determine the rise other than just observation. Probably not but I will be interested in whatever you have to say about it later.

> So what were the jackpot amounts on the bar progressives at Red Rock?

I didn't check. Maybe I will be back there next week to play some.

> By the way, of course they comp drinks while you're playing. Did you just move to Vegas?

I didn't know if they did right at the bar so I asked the barkeep. It should be easier to get a drink at the bar than waiting for the girl to come around out on the floor.

> However, I'm pretty sure Wynn and Encore do NOT comp drinks at the bar. It's ridiculous. They started that shit a few years ago and they are most assuredly the only assholes in Vegas who do not.

The 5.3 earthquake happened while I was driving, I think. That's why I didn't notice it.

[risky biz]

And thanks for the steer.

[Paul Popinjay]

On Friday, May 22, 2015 at 3:50:22 PM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:



>
> I was wondering if there is any way to determine the rise other than just observation.

Run through $10, or watch someone else run through $10. If it goes up 10-cents, it's 1%. I've played some that rise at 1.2%. That's pretty good. I've seen others at .5%. That's really slow. .8% or .75% is common. These machines are typically for pennies so the base game could be as bad as in the upper 80s, so you really need to find one that's just about to hit, maybe $47 or $48. It's rare to see something like that, but I've found them. In fact, more than once I've sat down at one for $47 while the machines on each side of me were occupied by people playing at $25. People are stupid.

[risky biz]

On Friday, May 22, 2015 at 2:43:34 PM UTC-7, Paul Popinjay wrote:
> On Friday, May 22, 2015 at 12:36:19 PM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:
>
>
> >
> > That's right. Quarter progressive on one side of the bar and dollar progressive on the other. And they comp drinks while you're playing. So I'll start learning the strategy.
> >
> > Looking forward to anything you have to say on Quick Strike and Quick Hits, also. I saw a Quick Strike this morning with a $41 minor jackpot but someone was parked on it.
>
>
>
> I have some opinions on Quick Hits, and will try to address them at another time. Regarding the $41 Quick Strike, that's not high enough. Depending on how slow the meter rise is and the internal settings, you could lose a bundle trying to crack that $50.
>
> So what were the jackpot amounts on the bar progressives at Red Rock?

$4,064 today on the dollar machines, 5 bet. $1,022, I think, on the quarter machines, 5 bet. That's what they show on the royal line but the royal is 4000, anyway. Not much difference. Are they both paid? I don't have a clue how VP works.

But I beat Texas Hold'Em Heads Up.

[Paul Popinjay]

On Monday, May 25, 2015 at 6:12:00 PM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:



>
> $4,064 today on the dollar machines, 5 bet. $1,022, I think, on the quarter machines, 5 bet. That's what they show on the royal line but the royal is 4000, anyway. Not much difference. Are they both paid? I don't have a clue how VP works.
>

You lost me. Unless you're looking at a machine that is not tied into the progressive, the royal is $4065, or $1022 for quarters. Perhaps the machine is multigame with six or eight games on it and only Bonus Poker and Deuces is tied into the progressive. I dunno. What are you looking at? The sign behind the bar? Or the actual machine?

[risky biz]

The machine. It's multi-game and all the $1 games show $4,064 on a 5 bet, maybe it was $4065. The quarter machines show $1,022 on a 5 bet. There is only a dollar amount shown for the royal. Less than a 5 bet doesn't show the payoff in dollars, just 4,000, for example on the $1 machines.

I don't know what I'm looking at. I should have taken a screenshot. I didn't play them.

[risky biz]

I'm reading elsewhere that breakeven on 8/5 Bonus Poker is $5,600 for $5, $1400 at quarters, 5 bet.

[Paul Popinjay]

On Monday, May 25, 2015 at 7:19:58 PM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:



>
> The machine. It's multi-game and all the $1 games show $4,064 on a 5 bet, maybe it was $4065. The quarter machines show $1,022 on a 5 bet. There is only a dollar amount shown for the royal. Less than a 5 bet doesn't show the payoff in dollars, just 4,000, for example on the $1 machines.
>
> I don't know what I'm looking at. I should have taken a screenshot. I didn't play them.

You're always going to play 5 coins. You are usually penalized for playing "short-coin". Not just penalized by not being eligible for the progressive royal, but also if there was no progressive. For instance, a typical machine without a progressive would pay as follows:

1-coin 250
2-coins 500
3-coins 750
4-coins 1000
5-coins 4000

comprende?

[Paul Popinjay]

On Monday, May 25, 2015 at 7:44:57 PM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:



>
> I'm reading elsewhere that breakeven on 8/5 Bonus Poker is $5,600 for $5, $1400 at quarters, 5 bet.

That's correct.

Last time I was there a friend of mine called me early in the morning to meet him at a bank of machines that was over $3000, for quarters. It pays to network.

[risky biz]

Not exactly.

So, on a $1 machine 5 coins is $5?

And- what's a good book for Bonus Poker? I can't find anything online. Is it covered well in some general video poker book?

[Paul Popinjay]

On Monday, May 25, 2015 at 8:16:53 PM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:



>
> So, on a $1 machine 5 coins is $5?
>
> And- what's a good book for Bonus Poker? I can't find anything online. Is it covered well in some general video poker book?

Yes, on a dollar machine, max bet (5 coins) is $5. To be clear, it is not unusual to go down 5 royals when Lady Luck has you on Total Ignore. So, unless you're financially, AND mentally, prepared to lose $20K, I would not fuck around with dollars if I was you. Stick to quarters. Just remember, video poker is a long-range game, and playing a million hands is not really statistically significant. But three million is.

For less than $20, get Bob Dancer's Winners Guide for 9-6 Jacks-or-Better. Inside you will start off with a Beginners Strategy, then advance to Recreational, and then to Basic. Basic may be as far as you choose to go. There is an Advanced Strategy which is computer perfect, but your gain over Basic will be pennies, literally, and a lot more to remember. (penalty cards). In the back of the book are strategies for 5-flush games, 9-5 Jacks or Better, and specifically 8-5 Bonus Poker.

Don't forget, playing with a progressive requires strategy changes when the jackpot rises. The most significant change is a High Pair (AA, KK, QQ, JJ) versus a RF3 (3-card royal). Generally you keep the high pair. But as the jackpot climbs, you would break the high pair and go for the 3-card royal.

[risky biz]

On Monday, May 25, 2015 at 9:17:37 PM UTC-7, Paul Popinjay wrote:
> On Monday, May 25, 2015 at 8:16:53 PM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:
>
>
>
> >
> > So, on a $1 machine 5 coins is $5?
> >
> > And- what's a good book for Bonus Poker? I can't find anything online. Is it covered well in some general video poker book?
>
>
>
> Yes, on a dollar machine, max bet (5 coins) is $5. To be clear, it is not unusual to go down 5 royals when Lady Luck has you on Total Ignore. So, unless you're financially, AND mentally, prepared to lose $20K, I would not fuck around with dollars if I was you. Stick to quarters. Just remember, video poker is a long-range game, and playing a million hands is not really statistically significant. But three million is.

That's one important aspect I've been wondering about. I'm not sure I'd be ready to take a $5,000 swing because that's 4,000 bets. Then I have to get back. How long does that take?

> For less than $20, get Bob Dancer's Winners Guide for 9-6 Jacks-or-Better. Inside you will start off with a Beginners Strategy, then advance to Recreational, and then to Basic. Basic may be as far as you choose to go. There is an Advanced Strategy which is computer perfect, but your gain over Basic will be pennies, literally, and a lot more to remember. (penalty cards). In the back of the book are strategies for 5-flush games, 9-5 Jacks or Better, and specifically 8-5 Bonus Poker.

Thanks for that.

> Don't forget, playing with a progressive requires strategy changes when the jackpot rises. The most significant change is a High Pair (AA, KK, QQ, JJ) versus a RF3 (3-card royal). Generally you keep the high pair. But as the jackpot climbs, you would break the high pair and go for the 3-card royal.

I deduced that already.

Texas Hold'Em Heads Up is really more attractive to me if I can hold my own against it but I'm going to keep working on the VP.

[Paul Popinjay]

On Monday, May 25, 2015 at 9:28:02 PM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:



>
> That's one important aspect I've been wondering about. I'm not sure I'd be ready to take a $5,000 swing because that's 4,000 bets. Then I have to get back. How long does that take?
>

Don't play video poker if you are not mentally prepared to lose $5000 for quarters. I play higher variance games like 7-5 Bonus Poker with large progressive jackpots, and am fully prepared to have $15K swings either way, for quarters.

As I mentioned, 3 million hands is a good test. Depending on the game, though, don't be surprised if you are a percent below your expectancy. That's why you want to have the highest edge, and be happy if you are below that but still way ahead dollarwise. I figure 3 million hands is like playing full time for about a year and a half.

Video poker might not be your cup of tea.

[risky biz]

I couldn't stomach that much swing in combination with the time element. So what's the dollar outcome of playing a year and a half? That's what I don't have a handle on.

But I think I want to learn at least one game, anyway.

[Paul Popinjay]

On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 12:03:21 AM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:


> So what's the dollar outcome of playing a year and a half? That's what I don't have a handle on.
>

Zero, if you don't have an edge. You need to assess your edge.

What is the game worth? What is the cashback worth? What are the mailers worth? What are promotions worth? Drawings? Etc.

It's generally not a good idea to "homestead" in any one casino. They might get sick of you, if you're winning, or only playing the best games on promo days. You need to spread your action around.

[risky biz]

What does this mean? I entered a 99.17% Bonus Poker pay table here:
http://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/analyzer/

Return 0.198332?

I'm trying to use the calculator to figure out what the percentage is on the VP machines at the scads of VP bars around town. When I enter the numbers for them I get this:

Return 0.191266

This is the pay table for those machines (hope it comes out right):
Royal Flush 250
Straight Flush 50
Four of a kind, Aces 80
Four of a kind 2, 3, or 4 40
Four of a kind 5 thru K 25
Full House 6
Flush 5
Straight 4
Three of a Kind 3
Two Pair 2
Pair 1

[Paul Popinjay]

What you did was enter the pay for one coin only, and at the end it said 5 coins. If you changed the 5 to 1, it would have been closer, but you would have needed to change the royal to 800 instead of 250. Then it would have come up .991660. And the second table with 6 for the full house would be .968687, which is awful.

Most bars around town do have horrible pay tables, but there are a few secrets I know of, and remember that anything with a progressive can be positive if it is big enough. Like I've said before, people are stupid. They will religiously blow their brains out on awful video poker at PT's Place. They have no chance at a place like PT's. Plus, don't forget, these numbers are for perfect play. How many people play perfectly?

[mary]

paul....since you have your ear to the ground re the suncoast...any good plays on VP that you know of? i'm there every so often and it just seems like the same old same old....any info appreciated..

mary

[risky biz]

On Wednesday, May 27, 2015 at 1:00:12 AM UTC-7, Paul Popinjay wrote:

> Most bars around town do have horrible pay tables, but there are a few secrets I know of, and remember that anything with a progressive can be positive if it is big enough. Like I've said before, people are stupid. They will religiously blow their brains out on awful video poker at PT's Place. They have no chance at a place like PT's. Plus, don't forget, these numbers are for perfect play. How many people play perfectly? .968687 is better than I thought it would be

OK. I'm not familiar yet with how they display the pay tables.

.968687 is better than I thought it would be after looking at some other pay tables. I've wondered if the people I see playing these knew how to play but I see now that if they are playing them then it's unlikely they know how to play. I never really looked at the pay tables in bars before.

I guy I met who has owned several VP lounges told me that 15 machines will clear $150,000 a year on just the machines.

[Paul Popinjay]

On Wednesday, May 27, 2015 at 6:28:43 AM UTC-7, mary wrote:


>
> paul....since you have your ear to the ground re the suncoast...any good plays on VP that you know of? i'm there every so often and it just seems like the same old same old....any info appreciated..
>
> mary

As you may know, Mary, Suncoast trashed and burned all their good video poker several months ago. I think we may have discussed it briefly on RGP. So now their best game for quarters is 8-5 Bonus Poker. It's almost the end of the month but for May they had a small promo that was decent in terms of EV. On Sundays and Mondays (over now) they had a 4-of-a-kind promo when playing at the bars. Quads gets you an extra 100 coins, $25, when they are either 5s, 6s, 7s, 8s, 9s. You can only use each quad once, so before you hit any of the quads your edge at Bonus Poker is 100.92%. Add to that another .3% if you are an Emerald Card, and then whatever mailers they send you each month. Once you hit the first set of qualifying quads, your edge lowers to 100.57%. I would recommend then quitting when hitting the second quad. This past month you could combine your action on Monday to earn a lunch or breakfast buffet for 300, and another 600 points gets you a dinner or $10. I'd take the cash.

That promo has been running almost every other month lately. It takes about 1100 hands to get one of the qualifying quads, so on average it's about a 2-1/2 hour play.

So they lowered their games, but they've had some decent promos. I would definitely play there if I lived there. They have a nice progressive bank with Bonus Deuces (98.80%) that apparently has a fast meter that occasionally gets high. I heard it was over $2500 a couple weeks ago, which would make it very juicey, but it's a strategy you have to study, as in all games.

Also, don't forget they've been having these mystery multipliers for seniors on Wednesdays for a long time. Swipe at the kiosk, and you might get a 30X point multilpier. That adds 3%. Incredible. I don't know how they do it.

[Paul Popinjay]

On Wednesday, May 27, 2015 at 8:34:26 AM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:



>
> I guy I met who has owned several VP lounges told me that 15 machines will clear $150,000 a year on just the machines.

If people weren't so stupid then better games would be offered.

I saw a grand opening bar there once in a parking lot off some east-west road, maybe Sahara or Charleston. They had banners and signs, "Grand opening - Video Poker!!!" So I stopped and went in there. Sat down. Ordered a coke. Pulled out some money just to get a look, and I saw they had the absolute worst paytables they could have. And in a competitive environment like Vegas. And to boot, there wasn't even a progressive. How stupid is that? Of course, there were no customers. The girl brought me the coke, I put $3 on the bar and left disgusted. Fucking idiots.

Some of the best setups in a bar I've ever seen used to be the Wildfire Group, like Barley's in Henderson or Wildfire on Rancho. But last time I was there they had made some real bad changes. Another suit fucks things up. I still have some hope for them and will take a look on my next trip.

[mary]

thanks for the info paul!! I do know about that progressive deuces bank. it's towards the back by the pokerroom. I think it gets the most play of all the VP banks there!!! it hits pretty frequently, but I've seen it as high as close to $4000!!

[drwhod...@gmail.com]

P says Las Vegas casinos aren't willing to pay a gambler to pay good games anymore, and he may be right in most circumstances. I just don't know the scene in Vegas that well anymore. If you can find a casino willing to pay you to play, your bankroll requirements go way down. P plays games where a significant part of the return is jammed into the upper most part of the paytable. It is possible to wait a very long time for those hands. If you can get someone to give you 1% or 2% to play a near 100% game your bankroll requirements go way down. It's a clockwork payment. There is almost no volatility to that part of return. I have played, and continue to play, situations where I have a 5% ror at 2000 bets... or well under. You need to be flexible about where and when you play. And you need to move on when the advantage disappears.... as it always does, sooner or later.

C

[Paul Popinjay]

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 6:19:48 AM UTC-7, drwhod...@gmail.com wrote:



>
> P says Las Vegas casinos aren't willing to pay a gambler to pay good games anymore, and he may be right in most circumstances. I just don't know the scene in Vegas that well anymore. If you can find a casino willing to pay you to play, your bankroll requirements go way down. P plays games where a significant part of the return is jammed into the upper most part of the paytable. It is possible to wait a very long time for those hands. If you can get someone to give you 1% or 2% to play a near 100% game your bankroll requirements go way down. It's a clockwork payment. There is almost no volatility to that part of return. I have played, and continue to play, situations where I have a 5% ror at 2000 bets... or well under. You need to be flexible about where and when you play. And you need to move on when the advantage disappears.... as it always does, sooner or later.
>
> C

There are occasional promotions, "small ball" promos, that can pencil in higher and you can get away with playing better games. It's just that hardly anyone is going to let you get away with these forever, and I don't even know how the bigger players are getting by nowadays. And that's the trend. Things are not going to get better. But there will probably always be a way to make a buck. There are a lot of casinos, and that's a good thing. Looks like there are going to be a few more soon. Can't hurt.

What I wish would be for the bar scene to get better. There are a gazillion bars with video poker, and so many of these stupid fucks offer 7-5 DDB. My goodness, like 8-5 DDB ain't tough enough.

If I had a bar, I would offer maybe 8 games, in the third tier category, like 7-5 BP, 9-6-5 DB, 9-5 DDB, etc. I'd put a fast meter on the progressive, maybe 1%, maybe 1-1/2%, and tie them in together so that they all build as any game is being played. I'd also have a signup list when the joint gets crowded, like in a poker room. I also might have the straight flush progressed.

I would also have a good 6-spot Keno with a super fast meter, and advertise the fuck out of it. Wtf, a typical Keno schedule is returning 92%, why not set the meter at 3 or 4%?

I would have gift card promos on certain days. People love those.

I would get the word out and encourage professionals to play my high jackpots. I would roll the red carpet out for them. The more the merrier. Just get the place filled, and I'll make money.

And don't forget the masseuses. Players' necks and shoulders get stiff while playing a lot.

Last time I was in town I went by Hilton. Have you ever seen how they have a backup jackpot on a couple banks? It's a neat idea, and I've heard stories about that in the past. I walked by one day and noticed the bank was full of old geezers and they were banging away feverishly. There were two marquees with different jackpot amounts and I asked one of the old farts what that was about. One is a backup. The game was 8-5 DDB, and at the time it was fairly high, about $2400, and I think the backup was about $1700. I don't know what the meter rate is, but I assume it must be fairly quick. Interesting concept I want to look at next trip. Of course, the property is changing hands, so we'll see if it's still there.

[drwhod...@gmail.com]

The Hilton was once one of my favorite plays. Long ago. Great for locals and tourists alike. I've heard of the meter feeding two progressives --The current one and the one replacing it. I don't recall seeing one off hand. I'll play progressives when I see one that is attractive, but there are so few out here and good ones are rarer still. Years ago there was a $ 8/5 bonus poker bartop progressive with a 1% meter... and earned good benefits. It was 100% with the meter at reset, but it was often in the 7K to 11K range. Very sweet.

I wonder, does a bar get to choose their paytables or is that up to whoever provides and services the machines?

C

[risky biz]

Some bars own the machines, maybe most bars, and pay someone for maintenance. I assume they can set those at whatever they want. If they're leasing them it would make sense that they could choose, also. I don't think any of them just charge someone else to operate the machines at their location. I could be wrong about that, though.

[Paul Popinjay]

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 3:41:43 PM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:



> >
> > I wonder, does a bar get to choose their paytables or is that up to whoever provides and services the machines?
> >
> > C
>
> Some bars own the machines, maybe most bars, and pay someone for maintenance. I assume they can set those at whatever they want. If they're leasing them it would make sense that they could choose, also. I don't think any of them just charge someone else to operate the machines at their location. I could be wrong about that, though.

I'm sure not sure how it all goes down, but I know there are slot routes. Next time you go past a 7-11 you may notice a green sign on their wall that says "Gamblers Bonus", and that is run by United Coin. Still, I've seen different paytables at different places on the Gamblers Bonus system. For years they had a Deuces game that was positive, it was 10-4-4 Bonus Deuces Wild with a 5000 royal at 10-coins. Several of the Village Pubs had this game. A few years ago they all got rid of them and I understand it was United Coin who made them do that.

When I went out there in 2011 many of the Wild Fire Group under Stations had very good progressives. Something happened between then and my next trip in 2013 and it is very different now. But they're still not uniform. So I don't know who makes the call.

[risky biz]

I wasn't even thinking about the C-stores and grocery stores. I'll look at their pay tables next time I'm in one.

[Paul Popinjay]

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 4:50:12 PM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:


>
> I wasn't even thinking about the C-stores and grocery stores. I'll look at their pay tables next time I'm in one.

If you ever find something good in this area, it's probably a mistake. Keep it to yourself. That is, keep it to yourself after you have emailed ME about it.

Vegas is a huge town. There are secrets and mistakes out there, and hopefully there always will be. You have to be informed enough to know something good when you see it. You DON'T want to see something great and then go blab about it on a public newsgroup or forum. I have seen many people post things to forums that they should keep to themselves. I have even seen the Las Vegas Advisor write up a good review about something and then almost immediately the bar changes it.

[risky biz]

I'll make a point of only informing you personally and none of the unwashed masses at RGP.

[drwhod...@gmail.com]

Sure, Bogart all those sweet 7/11 plays... The only thing I know about that end of the business was gleaned reading about the American Coin scandal years ago. And also talking to locals who have had to wait for drivers to pay off large hits on these non casino properties.

C

[Paul Popinjay]

On Monday, June 1, 2015 at 8:20:31 AM UTC-7, drwhod...@gmail.com wrote:



>
> Sure, Bogart all those sweet 7/11 plays... The only thing I know about that end of the business was gleaned reading about the American Coin scandal years ago. And also talking to locals who have had to wait for drivers to pay off large hits on these non casino properties.
>
> C

http://www.reviewjournal.com/business/casinos-gaming/united-coin-machine-changes-name-century-gaming-technologies


http://tinyurl.com/qgu7sg3

[risky biz]

I'm reading 'American Coin' right now:

http://www.amazon.com/American-Coin-Betrayal-Gambling-Murder/dp/1475985088/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1433175646&sr=1-1&keywords=american+coin

I'm about 75% done. So far, the author looks suspicious.

[Paul Popinjay]

On Monday, June 1, 2015 at 9:22:27 AM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:



>
> I'm reading 'American Coin' right now:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/American-Coin-Betrayal-Gambling-Murder/dp/1475985088/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1433175646&sr=1-1&keywords=american+coin
>
> I'm about 75% done. So far, the author looks suspicious.

I didn't even know there was a book out on it. If I did, I forgot. Do you like it so far?

[risky biz]

In the book, 'American Coin', the programmer who wrote the software to gaffe the games supposedly said that the first effort was so sloppy that anyone could see it was gaffed. He seemed to be saying that he did that on purpose because he was coerced into writing the software. He said he was surprised when people kept playing them. However, I haven't finished the book but I suspect that his deposition was deceptive and that his testimony tended to exonerate Frank Romano in exchange for a job offer and a heavily discounted new car from another of Romano's businesses. Someone gets murdered later and I suspect it may have been him. No, I don't want anyone to tell me right now what happened.

Every a-hole in the newsgroup, please go ahead and insert all elaborations on what happened below as I will not be reading this thread again until I have finished the book.
[ ]

[Paul Popinjay]

On Monday, June 1, 2015 at 9:34:30 AM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:



>
> Every a-hole in the newsgroup, please go ahead and insert all elaborations on what happened below as I will not be reading this thread again until I have finished the book.
> [ ]

lol

[risky biz]

Frank Romano paints himself as an angel and his two partners as first class scumbags. I'm waiting to see if it's the programmer who gets killed. His deposition has already sent the two partners up the river and exonerated Frank Romano. The partners might possibly kill him for revenge but it's more likely Frank Romano would kill the programmer if he was worried that the programmer could recant the exonerating testimony. There's some suspense to it but Romano puts in way too much extraneous detail. That's probably to get the reader to like him. Typos and misspellings so it wasn't edited very well. I might finish it tonight.

BTW- I didn't read anything else in this thread.

[drwhod...@gmail.com]

You think? I didn't know there was a book either.

C

[risky biz]

I'm glad I could bring it to your attention. I learned how to stay abreast of gambling related issues like this by studying chapter 5 of the RGP Operations Manual provided to me by Paul when I began my tour as Senior Coordinator.

Chapter 6 was even more interesting. That was focused on how to supervise some of RGPs more problematic members. It's too long and convoluted to discuss here.

[risky biz]

BTW- I haven't read anything else in this thread except for the last thing I read.

[risky biz]

On Monday, June 1, 2015 at 9:33:40 AM UTC-7, Paul Popinjay wrote:

Just finished it. It's worth reading. Frank Romano makes a case that his two partners, his father-in-law and brother-in-law, kept the gaffe hidden from him. I have to say I'm indecisive about it primarily because I have seen only one side of the story. The ins and outs of how the Gaming Control Board shut them down and what happened afterward are interesting.

[Paul Popinjay]

On Monday, June 1, 2015 at 5:00:22 PM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:



>
> I'm glad I could bring it to your attention. I learned how to stay abreast of gambling related issues like this by studying chapter 5 of the RGP Operations Manual provided to me by Paul when I began my tour as Senior Coordinator.
>
> Chapter 6 was even more interesting. That was focused on how to supervise some of RGPs more problematic members. It's too long and convoluted to discuss here.

Which chapter covered quitting and how to leave me hanging by myself?

[risky biz]

I may have skipped that one. Quilting was never of much interest to me.

[risky biz]

Is 12/10 Bonus Poker good? If that's your secret it's in plain view. I was surprised when I saw that pay table.

[Paul Popinjay]

On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 at 6:09:07 PM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:


>
> Is 12/10 Bonus Poker good? If that's your secret it's in plain view. I was surprised when I saw that pay table.

There is no such game that would be called "12-10 Bonus Poker". There is a form of Deuces Wild that is commonly called "12-10", and it is not a good game unless it has a high jackpot.

The numbers usually refer to the return on the Full House and the Flush, although there are still more variations. The most common (full pay) Bonus Poker is called "8-5". That's 8 for the full house and 5 for the flush, and returns 99.15% After that and quite common is 7-5 Bonus Poker, returning 98%.

Even though you can identify the full house and flush, you STILL need to check everything. For instance, there is a less common "8-5" Bonus Poker that is awful, commonly found in bars, the difference being mainly that it returns one coin for two pair. Good Bonus Poker returns two coins for two pair.

[risky biz]

I had to take a quick look. Maybe it was a 6/5 with two "coins" on the display. I'm going back to carefully write down the entire pay table. People claim that they have better pay tables. If they're 6/5 they aren't better.

[Paul Popinjay]

On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 at 7:04:58 PM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:



>
> I had to take a quick look. Maybe it was a 6/5 with two "coins" on the display. I'm going back to carefully write down the entire pay table. People claim that they have better pay tables. If they're 6/5 they aren't better.

6-5 is awful.

[risky biz]

That's why I'm thinking that isn't what it is. I'll try to check again today when I have more time.

[risky biz]

Not sure if this will be readable but here are two pay tables I copied down:

$2 25c
1 "coin" 5 "coins"
Royal Flush 250 500
Straight Flush 50 100
Four Aces 80 160
Four-Of-A-Kind 2s, 3s, 4s 40 80
Four-Of-A-Kind 5s-Ks 25 50
Full House 8 14
Flush 5 10
Straight 4 8
Three-Of-A-Kind 3 6
Two Pair 2 4
Jacks Or Better 1 2

The machines vary. Video Poker is a pain in the ass.

[Paul Popinjay]

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 at 9:09:47 PM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:



>
> Not sure if this will be readable but here are two pay tables I copied down:
>
> $2 25c
> 1 "coin" 5 "coins"
> Royal Flush 250 500
> Straight Flush 50 100
> Four Aces 80 160
> Four-Of-A-Kind 2s, 3s, 4s 40 80
> Four-Of-A-Kind 5s-Ks 25 50
> Full House 8 14
> Flush 5 10
> Straight 4 8
> Three-Of-A-Kind 3 6
> Two Pair 2 4
> Jacks Or Better 1 2
>
> The machines vary. Video Poker is a pain in the ass.

I can read it. This is easy, Risky. Your first column is a $2 game, and it is fullpay "8-5" Bonus Poker, showing the one-coin columm.

Your second column is the two-coin (not five coins) column of a 25-cent game, a "7-5 Bonus Poker" game. 7-5 Bonus Poker returns 98% so you would have to have a very good promotion to put it in the black. Or, it would need a progressive. For quarters, 7-5 Bonus Poker Progressive needs to be at $1900 to break-even. Plenty of these around town, though probably not in restricted bars with 15 machines. If you find one, let me know.


By the way, Risky, if a Bonus Poker screen is confusing to you, just wait until you start looking at Double Double Bonus, with "kickers". lol I have a friend who has been there six years and he still gets confused.

[risky biz]

Is "Bet 5" something different from 5 "coins"? And why do they say "coins, anyway? No one uses coins anymore.

[Paul Popinjay]

On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 12:37:18 AM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:



>
> Is "Bet 5" something different from 5 "coins"? And why do they say "coins, anyway? No one uses coins anymore.

Plenty of places still have coins. Just last week The D removed all of their "coin-droppers" from upstairs. The El Cortez still has many coin-droppers. I think Las Vegas Club also.

Your confusion is confusing me.

[risky biz]

Never been in the "D" or Las Vegas Club and never paid attention to the slot machines anywhere.

I see now that you said earlier in the thread that "bet 5" is the same as 5 "coins". I must have copied the wrong row on the 25c game. That means the 25c game is 7/5 even when betting 5 credits. "Credits".

And isn't the top end of the table inferior to most other places?

I assume the best pay tables are for dollars or higher and 5 credits or more?

BTW, to change the subject- I can't understand why they don't have 25c Texas Hold'Em Heads Up machines. The lowest credit is $1 which means the lowest stakes is 2/4. One hand takes 20 seconds and the cheapest you can usually get out of a hand is $15 with single pots often going up to about $50 or more. I'm sure they'd get more action with lower stakes. I see people sit down, lose $40 before they know what happened and leave immediately.

[Paul Popinjay]

On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 1:14:04 AM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:



>
> Never been in the "D" or Las Vegas Club and never paid attention to the slot machines anywhere.
>
> I see now that you said earlier in the thread that "bet 5" is the same as 5 "coins". I must have copied the wrong row on the 25c game. That means the 25c game is 7/5 even when betting 5 credits. "Credits".
>
> And isn't the top end of the table inferior to most other places?
>
> I assume the best pay tables are for dollars or higher and 5 credits or more?
>
> BTW, to change the subject- I can't understand why they don't have 25c Texas Hold'Em Heads Up machines. The lowest credit is $1 which means the lowest stakes is 2/4. One hand takes 20 seconds and the cheapest you can usually get out of a hand is $15 with single pots often going up to about $50 or more. I'm sure they'd get more action with lower stakes. I see people sit down, lose $40 before they know what happened and leave immediately.

Generally, the only difference for 5 credits (max coin) is the extra value in the royal flush. Playing for 1, 2, 3, or 4 coins is all the same thing, the same return percentage. There are exceptions. I have seen machines where playing for 1 coin is the same return as playing for max coin, but that's very rare. And, there are machines that take 10-coins, and even more. At Dotty's I think you will find machines with up to 50 coins. But STANDARD, is 5-coin max.

And yes, there are better paytables at bigger denoms. But in Vegas, somewhere you can find anything at lower stakes. There's even great tables at 1-cent/5-cents.

I really can't comment on the holdem machines. We've never had them at my place. Uhh, but we're very accommodating.

[risky biz]

On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 1:27:51 AM UTC-7, Paul Popinjay wrote:
> On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 1:14:04 AM UTC-7, risky biz wrote:
>
>
>
> >
> > Never been in the "D" or Las Vegas Club and never paid attention to the slot machines anywhere.
> >
> > I see now that you said earlier in the thread that "bet 5" is the same as 5 "coins". I must have copied the wrong row on the 25c game. That means the 25c game is 7/5 even when betting 5 credits. "Credits".
> >
> > And isn't the top end of the table inferior to most other places?
> >
> > I assume the best pay tables are for dollars or higher and 5 credits or more?
> >
> > BTW, to change the subject- I can't understand why they don't have 25c Texas Hold'Em Heads Up machines. The lowest credit is $1 which means the lowest stakes is 2/4. One hand takes 20 seconds and the cheapest you can usually get out of a hand is $15 with single pots often going up to about $50 or more. I'm sure they'd get more action with lower stakes. I see people sit down, lose $40 before they know what happened and leave immediately.
>
>
>
> Generally, the only difference for 5 credits (max coin) is the extra value in the royal flush. Playing for 1, 2, 3, or 4 coins is all the same thing, the same return percentage. There are exceptions. I have seen machines where playing for 1 coin is the same return as playing for max coin, but that's very rare. And, there are machines that take 10-coins, and even more. At Dotty's I think you will find machines with up to 50 coins. But STANDARD, is 5-coin max.

Up to 100 at Dotty's.