Travesty in New York City
Irish Mike
"WASHINGTON -- For late-19th-century anarchists, terrorism was the
"propaganda of the deed." And the most successful propaganda-by-deed in
history was 9/11 -- not just the most destructive, but the most
spectacular and telegenic.
And now its self-proclaimed architect, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, has been
given by the Obama administration a civilian trial in New York. Just as
the memory fades, 9/11 has been granted a second life -- and KSM, a second
act: "9/11, The Director's Cut," narration by KSM.
September 11, 2001 had to speak for itself. A decade later, the deed will
be given voice. KSM has gratuitously been presented with the greatest
propaganda platform imaginable -- a civilian trial in the media capital of
the world -- from which to proclaim the glory of jihad and the criminality
of infidel America.
So why is Attorney General Eric Holder doing this? Ostensibly, to
demonstrate to the world the superiority of our system where the rule of
law and the fair trial reign.
Really? What happens if KSM (and his co-defendants) "do not get
convicted," asked Senate Judiciary Committee member Herb Kohl. "Failure is
not an option," replied Holder. Not an option? Doesn't the presumption of
innocence, er, presume that prosecutorial failure -- acquittal, hung jury
-- is an option? By undermining that presumption, Holder is undermining
the fairness of the trial, the demonstration of which is the alleged
rationale for putting on this show in the first place.
Moreover, everyone knows that whatever the outcome of the trial, KSM will
never walk free. He will spend the rest of his natural life in U.S.
custody. Which makes the proceedings a farcical show trial from the very
beginning.
Apart from the fact that any such trial will be a security nightmare and a
terror threat to New York -- what better propaganda-by-deed than blowing
up the entire courtroom, making KSM a martyr and making the judge, jury
and spectators into fresh victims? -- it will endanger U.S. security.
Civilian courts with broad rights of cross-examination and discovery give
terrorists access to crucial information about intelligence sources and
methods.
That's precisely what happened during the civilian New York trial of the
1993 World Trade Center bombers. The prosecution was forced to turn over
to the defense a list of two hundred unindicted co-conspirators, including
the name Osama bin Laden. "Within ten days, a copy of that list reached
bin Laden in Khartoum," wrote former Attorney General Michael Mukasey, the
presiding judge at that trial, "letting him know that his connection to
that case had been discovered."
Finally, there's the moral logic. It's not as if Holder opposes military
commissions on principle. On the same day he sent KSM to a civilian trial
in New York, Holder announced he was sending Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri,
mastermind of the attack on the USS Cole, to a military tribunal.
By what logic? In his congressional testimony Wednesday, Holder was
utterly incoherent in trying to explain. In his Nov. 13 news conference,
he seemed to be saying that if you attack a civilian target, as in 9/11,
you get a civilian trial; a military target like the Cole, and you get a
military tribunal.
What a perverse moral calculus. Which is the war crime -- an attack on
defenseless civilians or an attack on a military target such as a warship,
an accepted act of war which the U.S. itself has engaged in countless
times?
By what possible moral reasoning, then, does KSM, who perpetrates the
obvious and egregious war crime, receive the special protections and
constitutional niceties of a civilian courtroom, while he who attacked a
warship is relegated to a military tribunal?
Moreover, the incentive offered any jihadi is as irresistible as it is
perverse: Kill as many civilians as possible on American soil and Holder
will give you Miranda rights, a lawyer, a propaganda platform --
everything but your own blog.
Alternatively, Holder tried to make the case that he chose a civilian New
York trial as a more likely venue for securing a conviction. An absurdity:
By the time Obama came to office, KSM was ready to go before a military
commission, plead guilty and be executed. It's Obama who blocked a process
that would have yielded the swiftest and most certain justice.
Indeed, the perfect justice. Whenever a jihadist volunteers for martyrdom,
we should grant his wish. Instead, this one, the most murderous and
unrepentant of all, gets to dance and declaim at the scene of his crime.
Holder himself told The Washington Post that the coming New York trial
will be "the trial of the century." The last such was the trial of O.J.
Simpson. "
Irish Mike
Obama has decided to send 40,000 additional troops to fight in the war
against Fox News.
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susan
with what he has written.
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=34453
Is America a Serious Nation?
by Patrick J. Buchanan
11/17/2009
Are we at war -- or not?
For if we are at war, why is Khalid Sheikh Mohammed headed for trial in
federal court in the Southern District of New York? Why is he entitled to a
presumption of innocence and all of the constitutional protections of a U.S.
citizen?
Is it possible we have done an injustice to this man by keeping him locked
up all these years without trial? For that is what this trial implies --
that he may not be guilty.
And if we must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that KSM was complicit in
mass murder, by what right do we send Predators and Special Forces to kill
his al-Qaida comrades wherever we find them? For none of them has been
granted a fair trial.
When the Justice Department sets up a task force to wage war on a crime
organization like the Mafia or MS-13, no U.S. official has a right to shoot
Mafia or gang members on sight. No one has a right to bomb their homes. No
one has a right to regard the possible death of their wives and children in
an attack as acceptable collateral damage.
Yet that is what we do to al-Qaida, to which KSM belongs.
We conduct those strikes in good conscience because we believe we are at
war. But if we are at war, what is KSM doing in a U.S. court?
Minoru Genda, who planned the attack on Pearl Harbor, a naval base on U.S.
soil, when America was at peace, and killed as many Americans as the Sept.
11 hijackers, was not brought here for trial. He was an enemy combatant
under the Geneva Conventions and treated as such.
When Maj. Andre, the British spy and collaborator of Benedict Arnold, was
captured, he got a military tribunal, after which he was hanged. When Gen.
Andrew Jackson captured two British subjects in Spanish Florida aiding
renegade Indians, Jackson had both tried and hanged on the spot.
Enemy soldiers who commit atrocities are not sent to the United States for
trial. Under the Geneva Conventions, soldiers who commit atrocities are shot
when caught.
When and where did Khalid Sheikh Mohammed acquire his right to a trial by a
jury of his peers in a U.S. court?
When John Wilkes Booth shot Abraham Lincoln, alleged collaborators like Mary
Surratt were tried before a military tribunal and hanged at Ft. McNair. When
eight German saboteurs were caught in 1942 after being put ashore by U-boat,
they were tried in secret before a military commission and executed, with
the approval of the Supreme Court. What makes KSM special?
Is the Obama administration aware of what it is risking by not turning KSM
over to a military tribunal in Guantanamo?
How does Justice handle a defense demand for a change of venue, far from
lower Manhattan, where the jury pool was most deeply traumatized by Sept.
11? Would not KSM and his co-defendants, if a change of venue is denied,
have a powerful argument for overturning any conviction on appeal?
Were not KSM's Miranda rights impinged when he was not only not told he
could have a lawyer on capture, but that his family would be killed and he
would be water-boarded if he refused to talk?
And if all the evidence against the five defendants comes from other than
their own testimony under duress, do not their lawyers have a right to know
when, where, how and from whom Justice got the evidence to prosecute them?
Does KSM have the right to confront all witnesses against him, even if they
are al-Qaida turncoats or U.S. spies still transmitting information to U.S.
intelligence?
There have been reports that in the trials of those convicted in the first
World Trade Center bombing, sources and methods were compromised, weakening
our security for the second attack on Sept. 11.
If the trial is held in lower Manhattan, how much security will be needed to
protect against a car bomber who wants the world to see a mighty blow struck
against the Great Satan? And if, as some suggest, the trial should be held
on Governor's Island, would that not make the United States look like a
nation under siege?
What do we do if the case against KSM is thrown out because the government
refuses to reveal sources or methods, or if he gets a hung jury, or is
acquitted, or has his conviction overturned?
In America, trials often become games, where the prosecution, though it has
truth on its side, loses because it inadvertently breaks one of the rules.
The Obamaites had best pray that does not happen, for they may be betting
his presidency on the outcome of the game about to begin.
JerseyRudy
Yes, it is a terrible decision by Obama. When Bush made the same decision,
not nearly as bad!
Addressing the Department of Justice's decision to try terrorist suspects
in civilian court rather than a military tribunal, Sen. Jeff Sessions
(R-Ala.), on Wednesday, called the move unprecedented and indefensible.
Only, it's happened before, and Sessions, the ranking Republican on the
Judiciary Committee, once defended it.
Back in 2002, when the Bush Department of Justice put Zacarias Moussaoui,
the so-called 20th 9/11 hijacker, on trial in a federal court in northern
Virginia, the Alabama Republican was willing to grant presidential
deference.
"[The White House] probably thought it might be good to try this one in
public," Sessions said, according to a Lexis-Nexis transcript of a January
2, 2002, Gannett News Service article.
Sessions was far more lenient and forgiving of Bush than he has been
towards the Obama administration for choosing the same judicial path. On
Wednesday, the Alabama Republican told Fox News that Attorney General Eric
Holder's current decision was "really not a defensible position."
"It represents a historic change in how we treat those who are at war with
the United States," he said. "It is going to create a lot of complications
once we are at trial."
Sessions isn't the only one whistling a harsher tune now than he did
nearly eight years ago. Former New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani, who has
been dispatched by the Republican Party this past week to savage the Obama
White House for its decision, insisted that putting detainees like Khalid
Sheikh Mohammed on trial would give "an unnecessary advantage... to the
terrorists."
Interviewed after the Moussaoui trial, however, Giuliani insisted that the
verdict (no death penalty but six consecutive life terms with no possibly
of parole) said "something pretty remarkable" about the American people
and legal system.
"I could tell that these jurors were very emotionally affected by this as
I was when we went through all of the events," he said. "And yet they were
able to come to what they regarded as a rational judgment. It has to say
something about what America is like. And even though I am disappointed
that they didn't reach the death penalty result, I would have preferred
that, I have great respect for what they did here."
There were other Republicans, as well, who praised the Moussaoui case as
exemplary of the United States government's commitment to open and fair
judicial hearings. Former Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-Tenn.) said
that the verdict was "a small but important piece of justice" that
provided "proof that our society is grounded in the liberating power of
justice and the rule of law, which are our most valuable weapons in the
war on terror."
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ramashiva
> Charles Krauthammer:
<snip usual Nazi drivel from moronic brownshirt fuck>
LOL @ moronic brownshirt fuck freaking out over KSM being given a
trial by jury, A RIGHT GUARANTEED TO EVERYONE BY THE CONSTITUTION, NOT
JUST U.S. CITIZENS.
William Coleman (ramashiva)
joeturn
escape their torture and give Bush an aliby! Too bad they dont put the
19 terrorist that were supposed to have crashed planes and taken their
own lives on 9/11, on the witness stand they are all still alive and
doing well!!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2296490368603788739#
Raider Fan
For somebody that wants BAHH in front of poker discussion, can't you at
least put OT: in front of this shit?
"This has got to be some sports-related crap, that's all Raiderfan gives a
fuck about." -- Paul Popinjay 2/27/09
----�
looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com
Irish Mike
Jersey Rudy quickly jumps in to defend Obama's idiotic decision with his
standard "But Bush", "Bus Bush", "But Bush". Conveniently ignoring the
fact that KSM was captured in Pakistan, not arrested in Minnesota.
Irish Mike
_____________________________________________________________________�
JerseyRudy
So you believe that the decision to try KSM in federal court is wrong
because he was arrested in Pakistan?? Now we understand why you rarely
have an original thought, and instead rely on hacks like Dick Morris and
Krauthammer for your views. You are completely clueless!
joeturn
http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&day_of_911=ua93
K9way
Putting this asshole on trial and executing him will make a good SYMBOL ,
in itself !!
SYMBOLS mean a lot to the religious nut jobs of the world
THEIRS AND OURS !!
________________________________________________________________________�
Irish Mike
When an American citizen commits a crime, they should be tried in an
American civil court and they are entitled to all the rights of an
American citizen. When an enemy combatant commits a terrorist attack
against America, they should be tried in a military tribunal - as
authorized by the congress of the United States. This decision to try
muslim terrorists In a civil court is idiotic , jeopardizes our national
security and provides the terrorist with a tremendous propaganda and
recruiting tool. KSM had already plead guilty and was ready to be tried
by a military tribunal. Obama stepped in and for purely political reasons
decided to move the trial to a civilian court in New York City. It is
totally unnecessary, will cost tax payers an estimated $75 million dollars
and will encourage future terrorists attacks against American civilian
targets. And for what? So Obama can sling some more mud at President
Bush and continue his attack on our CIA.
Irish Mike
Obama has decided to send 40,000 additional troops to fight in the war
against Fox News.
_____________________________________________________________________�
garycarson
Noriega was arrested in Panama for crimes in Panama and was tried in the
US.
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johnny_t
Things like the driver do not even rate a trial. And not having a
process to deal with POW's is kinda silly for a country such as ours.
However, for KSM. I think it is clear. He should essentially have a
public enumeration of his crimes, what he did, when he did, where he did.
And then we decide either execution our life long imprisonment. We did
both with the Nazi's, and either were probably appropriate. We learned
much from the prisoners that we kept for life, and there was certainly
nothing wrong with the dispatch of others.
This is not about keeping the tyranny of the government in check against
the citizens that empower it.
This is about the military retribution of those that would choose war
against us. Not doing it in the name of a nation, does not make these
war acts mearly criminal. There is some line. But wherever the line is
KSM is well beyond the fray.
So, no, not a trial like a standard trial. More like the Nuremberg
trials where there is a public accounting followed by retribution. This
is not about finding "guilt" or innocence.
From what I have read about the lawyers at Guantanamo, they heve been
doing excellent work in knowing their place in history, and justice.
And the line that they cannot past.
If done correctly, the world will applaud us for our efforts. If we do
it poorly, we will be condemned as despots. I think we are smart enough
to come through the other side.
So in the end. I agree, there shouldn't be a civil trial. I don't
agree with many of the decisions as to where the lines should be by the
last presidency. But I also do not think KSM should be afforded trial,
he should be given a public accounting, and he should be sentenced. As
to what the retribution is, I am cool with either LWOP or Death.
joeturn
>
> - Show quoted text -
The reptilians have commited several crimes all over the world and
have all been pardoned(ignored). Take the Bush/Cheney Administration
for instance! They(CIA) blew up the WTC Towers and the Murrey
Building.
They executed their scape-goat McVeigh and now the abducteess from
Guantanamo will be their scapegoat for 9/11.
Keeping an open mine for those (containers)of you that can still think
for yourselves!(The religous that believe there is going to be a here-
after of heaven or hell) and the Reptilians that believe that Nibiru
is the wrath of god.
They(the Reptilians) have studied each passing of Nibiru and have
guessed where the pole shift will be the best base camp to dig in,as
the ocean may change to solid ice and freeze them like before in a
day and a night, leaving undigested food in their bellies! The
Atlantians could not swim soo they drownd!
The nuclear subs may not be able to surface and the ones that dig in
their bunkers may end up like the Reptilians that chose the wrong spot
before and are burning for eternity with the lost souls they contained
before as the earth's core squishes them into lava rocks. How about
them souls of the cotainers that never die?
It's coming people and all we can think about is sports and politics???
gtech1
federal court), one is right, or neither are right?
_____________________________________________________________________�
joeturn
Reptilian act like Ethnic Cleasing by Hitler. They have to kill as
many & as quick as they can without alerting the herd,to keep mass
hysteria from the mutitudes they have decepted from knocking them out
of their bunkers when Nibiru passes.
What would you do if you woke up early one morning and seen two suns
on the horrizon?
http://www.developmentcrossing.com/profiles/blogs/1018705:BlogPost:20157
O-PGManager
> escape their torture and give Bush an aliby! Too bad they dont put the
> 19 terrorist that were supposed to have crashed planes and taken their
> own lives on 9/11, on the witness stand they are all still alive and
> doing well!!
Anyone else starting to get a kick out of joeturn?
Opie-GManager
Rec.Gambling.Poker
Assistant Newsgroup Coordinator reporting to Mr. Popinjay
_______________________________________________________________________�
Pepe Papon
<garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote:
>> > Jersey Rudy quickly jumps in to defend Obama's idiotic decision with his
>> > standard "But Bush", "Bus Bush", "But Bush". Conveniently ignoring the
>> > fact that KSM was captured in Pakistan, not arrested in Minnesota.
>> >
>> > Irish Mike
>>
>> So you believe that the decision to try KSM in federal court is wrong
>> because he was arrested in Pakistan?? Now we understand why you rarely
>> have an original thought, and instead rely on hacks like Dick Morris and
>> Krauthammer for your views. You are completely clueless!
>
>Noriega was arrested in Panama for crimes in Panama and was tried in the
>US.
But Reagan! But Reagan!
--
~ Seth Jackson
MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Songwriting and Music Business Info: http://www.sethjackson.net
Deadmoney Walking
>
> - Show quoted text -
Should a head of state get the same process as an fighter without a
uniform?
Pepe Papon
<ad6...@webnntp.invalid> wrote:
>> Whats soo sad is 4 were coerced into a confestion or matardome to
>> escape their torture and give Bush an aliby! Too bad they dont put the
>> 19 terrorist that were supposed to have crashed planes and taken their
>> own lives on 9/11, on the witness stand they are all still alive and
>> doing well!!
>
>Anyone else starting to get a kick out of joeturn?
Not really. I don't speak Greek.
joeturn
wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 22:53:37 -0800, "O-PGManager"
>
> >> Whats soo sad is 4 were coerced into a confestion or matardome to
> >> escape their torture and give Bush an aliby! Too bad they dont put the
> >> 19 terrorist that were supposed to have crashed planes and taken their
> >> own lives on 9/11, on the witness stand they are all still alive and
> >> doing well!!
>
> >Anyone else starting to get a kick out of joeturn?
>
> Not really. I don't speak Greek.
> --
> ~ Seth Jackson
>
> Songwriting and Music Business Info:http://www.sethjackson.net
Start watching one hour into that link you wont have to understand
anything but that they are still on the CIA payrole for covert
operations or alive and working abroard! Its not Greek its reality
that you cant understand!