Cheating at the LA Poker Classic
Ron
is Ron Moore, from Davenport, Iowa. Some of you may know me, most of you do
not. I play the higher limit mixed games at most of the major tournaments.
When in LA recently I had something happen to me which I decided I needed to
share with all of you.
I was playing in a higher limit mixed game (defined as 200-400 or higher)
and had a problem with a certain individual in the game who had been
needling me excessively for the past day or so. I decided to retaliate.
During a particular hand, I decided to "slow-roll" this individual at the
end of the hand if the opportunity presented itself.
Before I go on, lets please not make this an issue about slow-rolling. I
know it's considered one of the cardinal sins of poker. I only use the
"weapon" in circumstances that warrant it, and I believe I use good judgment
when I choose to do it. If I told all of you who was needling me, I would
probably get a majority of positive responses for retaliating.
Anyway, at the end of this particular hand, I was heads-up with the person I
wanted to retaliate against. On the river he bet into me (a value bet), and
I just smooth called with the second-nut straight. He proudly turned his
hand up on the table and I continued to hold mine in the air staring at it
for ten seconds or so, when suddenly the person next to me began kicking me
under the table. Very surprised at what was happening, I held the hand a
few seconds longer, and the person next to me began kicking me again. I
then placed my hand face-up on the table, and when the dealer began to grab
it, I grabbed it back and announced that I thought I had a straight. I was
then awarded the pot.
Obviously, the person sitting next to me thought I overlooked what I had and
was trying to "help" me out with my hand. He had no idea what intentions
were, I must have been "acting" pretty well.
Since this occurred, I have spent countless moments thinking about the
repercussions of what had happened. While I clearly did not gain anything
by what this individual did, it was clearly his intention to "screw" the
other guy out of the pot if I had actually overlooked my hand.
I now wonder how many times this person has kicked people before? If he
cheats this way, how many other ways does he cheat? He is a successful
professional player, is he successful because he cheats? How many of his
friends are cheating with him? How many other people are cheating out
there?
The person I caught cheating is very well known. Nearly 100% of you would
know who I was identifying. Should I expose him? Would it do any good? It
would probably end up being my word against his, and how could I prove it?
Cameras don't catch kicking under the table do they?
What do I have to gain by telling all of you about my slow-rolling tactics?
Paul Phillips
>I now wonder how many times this person has kicked people before? If he
>cheats this way, how many other ways does he cheat? He is a successful
>professional player, is he successful because he cheats? How many of his
>friends are cheating with him? How many other people are cheating out
>there?
My opinion:
Your implication that because he tried to alert you that you had overlooked
his hand, that it is likely he cheats in more overt ways, is ludicrous. By
your own admission the other player in the pot was a dick. One of the
consequences of being unlikable is other people going out of their way to
make you lose money. It's not like this situation comes up that often in
high limit mixed games anyway (or if it does, deal me in, I want to play
300-600 with guys who often overlook their hands.)
I know and agree that it's against the rules for him to try to alert you
to the strength of your hand, but you used the word "cheating" a bunch of
times to try to build negative sentiment. He didn't have a financial
stake in the outcome, he was just trying to assist the universe in
apportioning some karma. I would expect an extremely minimal correlation
between that and any other form of "cheating."
>The person I caught cheating is very well known. Nearly 100% of you would
>know who I was identifying. Should I expose him? Would it do any good? It
>would probably end up being my word against his, and how could I prove it?
>Cameras don't catch kicking under the table do they?
You seem to think this would be a pat fleming level scandal if you
"exposed" the person who kicked you, but I can almost guarantee you the
general response will be "yawn." Don't get me wrong, I do applaud your
belief that all cheating is wrong -- it is -- but you also have to
accept that there are very significant distinctions between different
forms of cheating.
--
Paul Phillips | It's like giving an AK-47 to a monk, shooting him full of
Vivid | crack and letting him loose in a mall and expecting him to
Empiricist | balance your checking account "when he has the time."
ha! spill, pupil | -- Drew Olbrich on C++
AlwaysAware
(snip)
>He proudly turned his
>hand up on the table and I continued to hold mine in the air staring at it
>for ten seconds or so, when suddenly the person next to me began kicking me
>under the table.
Being no saint myself, I can understand the motiviation for "slow rolling" the
guy... what I don't understand is why you held your hand in the air for others
to see, before you slowed rolled him.... was there a reason? Were you hoping
the guy would kick you under the table so you could suggest he was a "cheat"?
Sounds like the guy "disliked" the other player as much as you. What if he in
is "dislike" blurted out that you had the winning hand? (what a mess that would
of been) Why did you advertise your hands to others when your claimed intent
was to slow roll the guy you were headsup with?
As far as the guy who kicked you being a cheat "I will let others comment on
that"
Joan
>What do I have to gain by telling all of you about my slow-rolling tacticcs?
Bad Bob
Can't say how others feel but if some ass hole exposed me to ridicule and
public flaming on usenet, after I had tried to help him not throw a winning
hand in the muck, I'd be really pissed. Maybe I am misunderstanding your
post here, excuse me if I am.
In my book snitching on this guy would be a worse crime than kicking
someone under the table to save them a few bucks. Two wrongs don't make a
right.
What would be the point?
Bad Bob the Albino
"Cook him till he's blue, smother him in onions!"
OleMissGolf
>Your implication that because he tried to alert you that you had overlooked
>his hand, that it is likely he cheats in more overt ways, is ludicrous. By
>your own admission the other player in the pot was a dick. One of the
>consequences of being unlikable is other people going out of their way to
>make you lose money. It's not like this situation comes up that often in
>high limit mixed games anyway (or if it does, deal me in, I want to play
>300-600 with guys who often overlook their hands.)
>
>I know and agree that it's against the rules for him to try to alert you
>to the strength of your hand, but you used the word "cheating" a bunch of
>times to try to build negative sentiment. He didn't have a financial
>stake in the outcome, he was just trying to assist the universe in
>apportioning some karma. I would expect an extremely minimal correlation
>between that and any other form of "cheating."
>
>You seem to think this would be a pat fleming level scandal if you
>"exposed" the person who kicked you, but I can almost guarantee you the
>general response will be "yawn." Don't get me wrong, I do applaud your
>belief that all cheating is wrong -- it is -- but you also have to
>accept that there are very significant distinctions between different
>forms of cheating.
Ditto.
aggie
I have sympathy......Since there is no proof that this guy cheated, and
since it did not hurt you, i don't think I would do anything.....That
being said, I understand that it was probably an uncomfortable situation
for you....Here is my similar situation....Tell me what you think.....
Loose friendly 15-30 game (GREAT GAME)......to my right super
nice-guy...weak tight-passive player....To his right....TOTAL
FISH.....Completely loose and passive with no apparent understanding of
the game
I'm dealt QQ in middle position......Fish calls from early position....I
raise...Fish and BB call......While I normally don't show anybody my cards
I show the nice guy to my right when he asks (i don't want to do anything
to jepordise the table chemistry)........THen the guy on my right also
looks at the fishes cards (he is between the two of us)
Flop comes 8-5-2 rainbow....BINGO...But wait! The guy on my right begins
kicking me under the table.....I now know the fish has a huge hand! BB
checks, fish bets........I think for a second (this is a awkward for me
because i did not want this information)....I FOLD my overpair.....BB
checks and calls the whole way down....The fish flopped a set of 8's...
So I saved some money....But I felt real bad......I knew the the fish had
flopped something by the way he got all quiet and bet out (THIS guy never
bets...He's a callin station)......But I probably would have raised the
flop and called him down without the extra info....should I have acted as
if i did not get any info? Should I have turned the guy on my right in
(he is not a close friend but i do consider him a poker buddy).......I
started wondering the same things that the original poster was
wondering.....How often does this guy cheat.....
I said nothing....I just felt bad about it.....The next day I told a
trusted floorperson the situation without any names.....He told me he
would of done the same thing but that I should never show this guy my
cards again...Which I won't....And I will probably watch this guy a little
closer for now on.....What do you guys think?
_________________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com
Ron
player in a hand?
By the way, you're wrong, people overlook their hands in omaha 8/B all the
time, even in the higher limits. As a matter of fact Paul, I remember
playing a hand with you about a year or so ago in which you overlooked that
you had a bad low, you only turned your cards up to show what a bad beat I
had given you for high. Another player at the table then pointed out that
you had a low. Or maybe you were just slow-rolling me?
What other word is there to use when someone kicks you under the table 6-7
times? A cheat is a cheat.
The fact that you think this is a "yawn" issue says a lot about you.
Maybe you kick people under the table too?
"Paul Phillips" <rg...@improving.org> wrote in message
news:b3dr4r$pm8$1...@spoon.improving.org...
Ron
"OleMissGolf" <olemi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030224151842...@mb-mp.aol.com...
Pete
why the hell are you letting other people see your hand? I only play
small limits, and am just a recreational player, but I never let anyone
see my hand.
My 2 cents ...
Pete
Ron
people do when they lose a hand. I was not doing any advertising, just
putting on an act. The person sitting next to me simply had the opportunity
to get an eyeful if he chose to. He was curious, so he looked at my hand.
And then the kicking began...
As a matter of fact, I thought the person who kicked me was a good friend of
the guy who lost the hand...I guess not.
I've been in a high-limit game when someone helped another person with their
hand in a similar situation. It happened at the Bellagio about a year ago.
The person who had the "best" hand was awarded the pot. The person who
"cheated", was barred from the Bellagio until they paid the other person
involved in the pot the amount of the pot. I know this as fact. I was
there, saw it all happen...
"AlwaysAware" <alway...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030224142011...@mb-fc.aol.com...
Andrei
> I now wonder how many times this person has kicked people before? If he
> cheats this way, how many other ways does he cheat? He is a successful
> professional player, is he successful because he cheats? How many of his
> friends are cheating with him? How many other people are cheating out
> there?
It's not a massive form of "cheating" in my mind, but I have had people
kick me under the table a few times as well before. However, it is
cheating as far as I'm concerned, but not as strong as some other more
blatant forms, IMHO.
The thing I don't understand is why more people don't anything at the game
itself whiel the game is occuring. Especially during tournaments. I
constantly speak up when people do this sort thing. I'll stop the game
when people flash cards in the middle of hands, or muck cards face up when
the action is only on the turn and three people are left, etc. I don't
tolerate this sort of thing. I try and be fun as I can at the table, but
once someone crosses the line, I lay into them as best I can without
throwing punches.
What I would have done, and I think more people should do, is simply speak
up at the table when it happens. We're all playing poker to take each
other's money... I have no problem burning bridges in the game. There's no
love lost for me when someone gets mad at me for pointing out their
behavior and in forms I consider illegit.
If I were you, I would have said, very loudly so every at the table can
hear. "Stop kicking me. I know I have the best hand. I'm trying to slow
roll this guy to see what he was betting strong with. I know I won. You
don't need to kick me under the table to tell me that. I'm not an idiot."
Then let peer pressure do it's job.
Andrei
Paul Phillips
>So if the other guy is a "dick", it's ok to have someone helping another
>player in a hand?
I think I specifically said otherwise. Where were you? Two quotes from
the post one would think you'd just read when you replied:
"I know and agree that it's against the rules for him to try to alert
you to the strength of your hand,"
"Don't get me wrong, I do applaud your belief that all cheating is
wrong -- it is"
>Or maybe you were just slow-rolling me?
Sounds like that would have been the appropriate move...
>The fact that you think this is a "yawn" issue says a lot about you.
>Maybe you kick people under the table too?
Yes, I am an accomplished cheater. In truth I'm a little crushed that
Russ G has never written an expose about me, after all the games I scammed
back when I was a "rounder", what with the marked cards and the cobalt
glasses and the cold decks and the kicking under the table. Harley Hall
and I used to work together knocking games off all over the west coast,
kicking each other furiously.
And just as you surmise, since I consider this a "yawn" issue you cannot
trust me in any way, shape or form. I've been polishing my holdout moves
too -- Russ says we're the easiest cheaters to catch but my latest trick
is to hold the cards IN MY MOUTH! The only way to detect this form of
cheating is to notice that I am not talking. Hmmm, that seems to draw
more attention than my chatter... the approach may need work.
--
Paul Phillips | The little boat gently drifted across the pond exactly
Moral Alien | the way a bowling ball wouldn't.
Empiricist |
slap pi uphill! |----------* http://www.improving.org/paulp/ *----------
Ron
I guess you think it's ok for someone to kick another under the table and
cheat in this manner?
The point of "snitching" on this person would be to alarm the rest of the
people who play poker with this individual to watch out for future acts of
cheating. If he is capable of doing such an act when he has nothing to
gain, what is he capable of doing when he does have something to gain?
What is wrong with exposing a cheater? This wouldn't be two wrongs, it
would be one wrong and one right.
"Bad Bob" <bad...@blueflintcat.us> wrote in message
news:jisk5vkhi0uan7un6...@4ax.com...
DaVoice
RC
"Ron" <poke...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:1Lv6a.247476$be.227621@rwcrnsc53...
Gary Carson
wrote:
>You seem to think this would be a pat fleming level scandal if you
>"exposed" the person who kicked you, but I can almost guarantee you
the
>general response will be "yawn."
Yawn is pretty much my response.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
Ron
thanks for your comments and response. the only thing I can tell you is
that I have never personally experienced something like this. I completely
froze for a moment when it happened. I wish I would have responded exactly
as you have suggested,
> If I were you, I would have said, very loudly so every at the table can
> hear. "Stop kicking me. I know I have the best hand. I'm trying to slow
> roll this guy to see what he was betting strong with. I know I won. You
> don't need to kick me under the table to tell me that. I'm not an idiot."
>
but I didn't. So what should I do about it now?
"Andrei" <anon...@epeople.com> wrote in message
news:3e5a88ff$0$192$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
Ron
do you do this also?
maybe I should just take a poll of how many people kick one another under
the table in a poker game. if its 30% or more, I'll just shut up about the
issue...
"Gary Carson" <garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:3e5a8b58...@news.mindspring.com...
Ron
"DaVoice" <ri...@voiceofpoker.com> wrote in message
news:v5l2opj...@corp.supernews.com...
Doctor K
> is to hold the cards IN MY MOUTH! The only way to detect this form of
> cheating is to notice that I am not talking.
All we'll have to do is ask you about a **yawn** issue and your cheating
will be revealed!!!
<grin>
--
Doctor K
Christopher Smith
Doc...@NOSPAMSUCKERSmightywebsmiths.com
Doctor K
house. When his father got an intense leg cramp in his calf, he kicked me
repeatedly under the table. I thought he was trying to alert me that my
sister was using up all of the gravy, so I 86ed him from our dining room.
Gary Carson
big blind. Multiway action. Big pot. By the river the board was
6655x. Three active hands left
I wasn't real happy, but therre'd been so much raising going on I was
down to my last $3 and I bet. I said Three and all in. The nine seat
raised. The other player folded. I turned my hand face up.
The eight seat held his hand in the air, I couldn't see it but the 10
seat could (and I think the dealer could see it). The 10 seat said,
"You have to show your hand". I said, "No he doesn't". He threw his
hand in, the dealer mucked it very quickly. That's why I think the
dealer saw the hand, he mucked it very quickly.
Anyway, the dealer started to push me the pot, the eight seat said,
"Hey I had a full house"
It appears that he didn't realize I was all in, thought that when I
put my hand faceup without calling his raise that I was folding.
The ten seat said the guy had a 6 in his hand.
Anyway, I got the pot. Very big pot. I actually felt kind of bad
about it. If I'd have seen the guys hand, I'd have thought about
giving him the pot, even if he mucked.
Anyway, I kept the money. Did I think the ten seat was cheating? No,
of course not. I didn't like what he did but I didn't think of it as
cheating.
I know why he did it too. The chips would have been more accesible to
him had they gone to the nine seat. But, cheating? That thought
never crossed my mind.
.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
James L. Hankins
hand to another player at the showdown. Is he not entitled to read the
hand? Or is this sole province of the dealer? I don't know. But if you
put your cards on the table and really did misread your hand the dealer
could "kick you under the table" and declare your hand the best.
"Ron" <poke...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:sSt6a.246923$vm2.190655@rwcrnsc54...
James L. Hankins
> I guess you think it's ok for someone to kick another under the table and
> cheat in this manner?
>
I'm not convinced he was cheating. YOU exposed your cards to him. Do the
cards speak for themselves? How many people have to see it? Or is it just
the dealer that is allowed to call the hand? Many times I have seen two
players at the showdown lay down their cards on the table and the player
holding the winning hand doesn't know it and the dealer doesn't know it
either; but someone at the table almost always catches it. Is that the same
thing as a kick under the table?
Howard Lederer
Ron, I will admitt that your story is mildly disturbing to me. I sure
hope that people are not alerting my opponents to their overlooked hands
often. I do agree, however, with Paul that this pro's actions do not
correlate with other potential cheating activity. In fact, I find some
comfort in hearing a story about a "tourist" from Iowa, like yourself,
getting kicked under the table by a local pro in a pot against another
pro. We can at least eliminate those two as partners.
I would have taken the pro aside and told him that though you might have
appreciated his intention of helping you, that you would not be kicking
him any time soon, and you would appreciate not getting any more of that
kind of help. I think I would have left it at that.
Howard Lederer
Ron
thought you had been cheated...
Havn't you have heard of one player per hand rule?
"Gary Carson" <garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:3e5a8ffd...@news.mindspring.com...
Ron
"James L. Hankins" <jhankins5@[NO SPAM]sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:dow6a.815$Vb.391...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
Ron
I would like to clarify one point.
An east coast pro kicked a midwest pro under the table so that a las vegas
pro would not win a pot at the LA poker classic.
No tourists were involved. This was all business.
Maybe if I told all of you that the east coast pro asked me for a
"kick-back" later that day it would make a difference to you?
"Howard Lederer" <anon...@lvcm.com> wrote in message
news:3e5a93d6$0$204$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
MB
Sorry --- but while I don't think it is okay, my response is still YAWN
Mel
Ron <poke...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:E5w6a.245002$HN5.1...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
James L. Hankins
> Maybe if the other guy had received the pot instead of you, you might have
> thought you had been cheated...
>
> Havn't you have heard of one player per hand rule?
My understanding of "one player per hand" is when a decision or action must
be made. In your example, the action was complete and you exposed your live
hand to another player at the table.
Ron
maybe you $3-$6 players dont realize this was a $5000 + pot.
does that make a difference?
"MB" <MBI...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:0Qw6a.1517$475.17...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
Gary Carson
>I guess you don't mind people cheating either.
>
>maybe you $3-$6 players dont realize this was a $5000 + pot.
>
>does that make a difference?
No, it doesn't.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
Ron
up or muck it at that point. The other player attempted to persuade me to
turn it up by kicking me under the table. How would you feel if you were
cheated out of a $5000 + pot?
"James L. Hankins" <jhankins5@[NO SPAM]sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:V%w6a.833$IN2.40...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
Paul Phillips
>Maybe if I told all of you that the east coast pro asked me for a
>"kick-back" later that day it would make a difference to you?
Yes.
I sense you don't believe that's a distinction that should be drawn.
And yet, there it is!
--
Paul Phillips | With enemies like you, who needs girlfriends?
Moral Alien | -- dorian, to his girlfriend
Empiricist |
i'll ship a pulp |----------* http://www.improving.org/paulp/ *----------
Gary Carson
>Correct. Except the action was not complete. I could either turn my
hand
>up or muck it at that point. The other player attempted to persuade
me to
>turn it up by kicking me under the table. How would you feel if you
were
>cheated out of a $5000 + pot?
If one $5000 pot is that big a deal to you then you really need to
play smaller.
One way to know that you aren't overplaying your bankroll is if one
pot, more or less, doesn't really matter all that much.
I understand the stress that comes from overplaying your bankroll.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
Andrei
> thanks for your comments and response. the only thing I can tell you is
> that I have never personally experienced something like this. I completely
> froze for a moment when it happened. I wish I would have responded exactly
> as you have suggested, but I didn't. So what should I do about it now?
Not much really. Let it go this time. Not worth the trouble in a "I say,
you say" battle. If it happens again, you really have speak up. And not
just in a polite, sort of way. (Which is fine the first time.) You have to
be aggressive about the complaint. Aggressive in ways that force peer
pressure to work so you'e not the only one involved in fixing the problem.
Ask anyone who plays tournaments with me and you'll probably hear them say
I'm a little wound up tight on the angle shooting/cheating aspects of the
game. Oh well... I don't care what people think of me too much in this
repsect. I don't play the game to be polite. We are playing for money, and
that's all there is to it.
Ron
who should have won a pot worth $5000+ does not receive it?
I would love to see one of you folks get cheated out of $5000+ by any other
means in the world and see if you thought it was ok.
What if you were checking out of the hotel and they gave you a bill for
$5500 instead of the $500 you owed. You would just say oh well and pay the
$5500?
What if you wrote someone a $500 check and they forged it (manipulated it)
to be $5500 instead? You would do nothing?
"Gary Carson" <garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:3e5a9eca...@news.mindspring.com...
Bad Bob
>As a matter of fact, I thought the person who kicked me was a good friend of
>the guy who lost the hand...I guess not.
There is some Vulcan logic if I ever saw any. Why, if he was a friend of
the guy with the worst hand, would he alert some stranger about it? We got
to improve the education system in this country...
Gary Carson
wrote:
>In article <QOw6a.248779$vm2.191048@rwcrnsc54>, Ron
<poke...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>>Maybe if I told all of you that the east coast pro asked me for a
>>"kick-back" later that day it would make a difference to you?
>
>Yes.
>
>I sense you don't believe that's a distinction that should be drawn.
>And yet, there it is!
I agree with Paul.
I don't think that's what happened though. I don't think he kicked
you hoping to form a partnership later. I think he kicked you because
he thought you were a loser and he wanted you to have the chips so he
could get to them.
I think you know that and that's what you're so upset about -- that he
didn't recognize what a star you are.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
Andrei
> I'm not convinced he was cheating. YOU exposed your cards to him. Do the
> cards speak for themselves? How many people have to see it? Or is it just
> the dealer that is allowed to call the hand?
It's cheating in the sense that this was a tournament game and the context
here is important. When people lose pots, they get closer to getting taken
out of the game (obviously), which is exactly what you want in a tourney.
The guy was kicking Ron under the table so Ron wouldn't toss the hand the
away. The guy wanted to make sure Ron won the pot so the OTHER guy
wouldn't. Ergo, getting the other guy closer to being out of the tourney,
which is good for everyone else, including the alleged kicker.
Ron knew what he had. Ron is just pointing out this guy showed him a side
Ron was not expecting from a "pro." Ron was not expecting a pro to "help
out" when it is, as we all know, one player to hand.
Bad Bob
>So I'm an asshole huh? Do you know me sir?
>
>I guess you think it's ok for someone to kick another under the table and
>cheat in this manner?
>
>The point of "snitching" on this person would be to alarm the rest of the
>people who play poker with this individual to watch out for future acts of
>cheating. If he is capable of doing such an act when he has nothing to
>gain, what is he capable of doing when he does have something to gain?
>
>What is wrong with exposing a cheater? This wouldn't be two wrongs, it
>would be one wrong and one right.
>
>
>
Well since you asked me...yeah, you are the ass hole.
If you were so honest why didn't you tell the floorman about it?
Why are you here now asking if it is OK to rat the guy out?
I'll tell you why, because the guy is well known and you figure you can
gain some notoriety at his expense.
Yeah I'm sure of it...you are an ass hole!
Gary Carson
>On Feb 24 2003 1:49PM, James L. Hankins wrote:
>
>It's cheating in the sense that this was a tournament game and the
context
>here is important.
Christ, Sam's right. We do need to do something about the educational
programs in this country. Or, just tell me you aren't American,
you're French or something. That would explain it.
It wasn't a tournament game. If context is important then get the
context right.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
Ron
An east coast pro kicked a midwest pro under the table so that a las vegas
pro would not win a pot at the LA poker classic.
This was all business.
"Bad Bob" <bad...@blueflintcat.us> wrote in message
news:g38l5vo3b827tkcu6...@4ax.com...
Ron
incident happened.
maybe he simply hasn't had an opportunity to ask me for his kick-back yet?
Or, maybe he just feels like I owe him a favor now? Do I?
"Paul Phillips" <rg...@improving.org> wrote in message
news:b3e70q$u6q$1...@spoon.improving.org...
Paul Phillips
Andrei <anon...@epeople.com> wrote:
>It's cheating in the sense that this was a tournament game and the context
>here is important. When people lose pots, they get closer to getting taken
>out of the game (obviously), which is exactly what you want in a tourney.
If the context here is important, then let's note that it was a high
limit cash game, not a tournament.
--
Paul Phillips | Nobody has a 'Bruce Ediger' quote in their sig -- not
Vivid | even me.
Empiricist | -- Bruce Ediger
ha! spill, pupil |----------* http://www.improving.org/paulp/ *----------
A. Prock
>So it's ok for one man to kick another man under the poker table so the man
>who should have won a pot worth $5000+ does not receive it?
I think Gary was saying you need to get some perspective.
It's not a $5000+ pot, it's a ~10 big bet pot.
I wouldn't worry too much in this situation. Medium sized
pots come and go.
Was the kicker acting against the spirt of the game? Yes.
Were you? Yes.
If you don't protect your hand, some people might see it.
If you openly display a slow roll, someone might alert
you to it, even if you haven't "tabled" your cards.
I'm still not sure what the whole point of your original
post was. Cheating in poker? Exposed cards cause problems?
Slow rolling is fun? You are a high limit player from Iowa?
I dunno.
*yawn*
- Andrew
James L. Hankins
> So it's ok for one man to kick another man under the poker table so the
man
> who should have won a pot worth $5000+ does not receive it?
It's a poker game. The best hand got the pot.
Bad Bob
>Thanks for your response Howard.
>
>I would like to clarify one point.
>An east coast pro kicked a midwest pro under the table so that a las vegas
>pro would not win a pot at the LA poker classic.
>No tourists were involved. This was all business.
>
>Maybe if I told all of you that the east coast pro asked me for a
>"kick-back" later that day it would make a difference to you?
>
>
I'm sure now that a few people have given you some shit about it, your
story will begin to change all over the place. If you were really asking
for advice, why did you feel it necessary to bring up the identity of the
guy who kicked you at all? Him being a "name" and all had nothing to do
with it I suppose?
Yeah, you're an ass hole.
Ron
As it turned out, I'm pretty sure I was the biggest winner in the game that
day, but maybe I just got lucky?
I played the under the table kicker heads-up omaha 8/B $300-$600 the day
before and got the best of him in a brief session, but maybe I just got
lucky?
You must be right, I must be a loser he was feeling sorry for...
"Gary Carson" <garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:3e5aa0f3...@news.mindspring.com...
Ron
$5000 buys a lot of hamburgers at McDonald's.
$5000 is not a lot of money to me or my bankroll, thank you for your concern
however....
I'm more concerned about the cheating that took place and what cheating
might take place in the future.
"Gary Carson" <garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:3e5a9fec...@news.mindspring.com...
James L. Hankins
> I havn't seen this individual alone or away from the table since the
> incident happened.
> maybe he simply hasn't had an opportunity to ask me for his kick-back yet?
>
> Or, maybe he just feels like I owe him a favor now? Do I?
NO
Howard Lederer
> Thanks for your response Howard.
>
> I would like to clarify one point.
> An east coast pro kicked a midwest pro under the table so that a las vegas
> pro would not win a pot at the LA poker classic.
> No tourists were involved. This was all business.
>
> Maybe if I told all of you that the east coast pro asked me for a
> "kick-back" later that day it would make a difference to you?
>
>
Ron, please note that I put "tourist" in quotes in my reply. What I
meant by that was you are definitely not local. I have played with you
enough to know you are not a tourist. In fact, I would consider myself a
"tourist" when playing in LA.
If you are saying that he did ask you to return the favor, I would
consider that to be a more serious issue.
DaveM
>Hello all.
>The person I caught cheating is very well known. Nearly 100% of you would
>know who I was identifying. Should I expose him? Would it do any good? It
>would probably end up being my word against his, and how could I prove it?
>Cameras don't catch kicking under the table do they?
My definition of cheating includes benefit to the cheater. It sounds here
like he was trying to "do" the other player - as you were. His move was
unethical but hardly cheating. In the pantheon of poker misdemeanors I'd
agree this one's a "yawn".
davem
DaveM
>If I were you, I would have said, very loudly so every at the table can
>hear. "Stop kicking me. I know I have the best hand. I'm trying to slow
>roll this guy to see what he was betting strong with. I know I won. You
>don't need to kick me under the table to tell me that. I'm not an idiot."
Or better still, don't show him your hand next time.
DaveM
Ron
So you think cheating is ok too, but only in small and medium sized pots,
just not big ones?
I have nothing to prove in poker. this is the first time you've probably
ever seen a post from me on this newsgroup. I have nothing to gain for
myself by telling everyone about the incident that occurred. I will not
gain or lose any $$$$$ from this discussion. Rules are Rules, Cheating is
Cheating. People who cheat should be exposed, shouldn't they?
And for the record, I identified myself at the beginning of my post to give
it credibility, nothing more or less....people who know me will tell you
what my reputation is in the poker world. If you don't know, go ask someone
who does.........
"A. Prock" <proc...@pokerstove.com> wrote in message
news:3e5aa4a1$0$7860$8026...@spool.cs.wisc.edu...
AJohn808
almost got what you deserved. You were lucky you and the kicker didnt get
accused of collusion and have a floor decision go against you. Then you'd
really be singing the blues.
DaveM
>Maybe if I told all of you that the east coast pro asked me for a
>"kick-back" later that day it would make a difference to you?
Of course it would make a difference.
DaveM
Gary Carson
>Cheating. People who cheat should be exposed, shouldn't they?
Should they? I hadn't notice that anybody had been.
>
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
Ron
mean.
my girlfriend calls me an asshole, so I guess you can too.
I'm not asking you if its ok to rat the guy out. I've simply brought the
subject to this group of poker analyst superstars for a discussion on
cheating in poker.
Apparently cheating is ok, as long as it isnt real obvious and blatant...
"Bad Bob" <bad...@blueflintcat.us> wrote in message
news:va8l5vkb1fluvuo13...@4ax.com...
Gary Carson
>Apparently cheating is ok, as long as it isnt real obvious and
blatant...
>
Personally I think deliberate delay of the game a serious infraction,
cheating at its worst.
I think anyone caught deliberatly delaying the game should forfiet
their chips and be permantenly 86'd.
But, that's just my opinion.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
OleMissGolf
Interesting terminology. If I knew someone was cheating, and I exposed them, I
would not feel as if I had "ratted them out."
Andrei
> Christ, Sam's right. We do need to do something about the educational
> programs in this country. Or, just tell me you aren't American,
> you're French or something. That would explain it.
LOL. Open mouth, insert foot.
I saw the last part of the first paragraph of the original post and
combined that with the title of the thread and thought it was a tournament
game. Doh!
> It wasn't a tournament game. If context is important then get the
> context right.
Indeed.
For the record... I went to Amherst College. One of the top three schools
in the country for private colleges. I just was never very good at typing
nor paying attention to usenet threads that lasted longer than two minutes.
And please... Let's just leave the slams to that. I can't bear any more...
Heh.
Ron
I disagree with you. Whether he asked for a favor in return is irrelevant.
It's a serious issue regardless. And the fact that people here on this
group are not taking it seriously bothers me. Where do we draw the line?
Apparently somewhat higher?
A
"Howard Lederer" <how...@lvcm.com> wrote in message
news:3e5aa817$0$65616$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
Gary Carson
A. Prock
>yawn yourself.
>
>So you think cheating is ok too, but only in small and medium sized pots,
>just not big ones?
Nope, I see you're having trouble with your reading comprehension.
Let's see what I wrote:
Q. Do I think it's ok?
A. "Was the kicker acting against the spirt of the game? Yes."
I guess I don't think it's ok.
Q. How do I feel about about big versus medium and/or small pots?
A. I can't seem to see any reference to small or big pots... So
your inference seem a little suspect to me.
I'm not sure what I can conlude from the stuff you've posted,
but hey, it's a free world.
Ron
player, not me, I did nothing wrong sir. Collusion was not an issue...
thanks for your concern though.
"AJohn808" <ajoh...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030224183153...@mb-da.aol.com...
Andrei
> If the context here is important, then let's note that it was a high
> limit cash game, not a tournament.
It's not that it's important, I guess, but it does seem to change the
potential nature of why someone would help someone else out in this
manner. In a tournament, helping one player out in to taking down a pot
can come back and help you later in that someone you don't want to play
against is taken out sooner. In the cash game, it's different, but muddier
why the person would try and help you out.
But like I said in response to Gary, open mouth and insert foot with
regard to thinking it was a tourney game.
Andrei
James L. Hankins
Rules are Rules, Cheating is
> Cheating. People who cheat should be exposed, shouldn't they?
Sure. Now, which rule was violated?
James L. Hankins
> If "caught", the kicker probably would have had to pay the pot to the
other
> player, not me, I did nothing wrong sir.
Well, of course, other than intentionally slow roll another player and
expose your cards before the showdown.
James L. Hankins
> Howard,
>
> I disagree with you. Whether he asked for a favor in return is
irrelevant.
> It's a serious issue regardless. And the fact that people here on this
> group are not taking it seriously bothers me. Where do we draw the line?
> Apparently somewhat higher?
Whether he asked for a favor is, indeed, irrelevant. I'm still trying to
nail down the part where the cheating occurred. What if the "kicker" didn't
kick you. What if instead he was a tourist who doesn't play much poker and
when you exposed your cards he just blurted out, "Ah, I put you on the
straight." Isn't that the same thing? Is it the fact that the "kicker"
alerted you clandestinely that bothers you so much, or the fact that he
alerted you at all?
greatbrit
we have learned here is it is never a good idea to play a hand with a
bad kicker.
Ron
misdemeanor.
are misdemeanors punishable in america? yes, I believe so.
is there a public record of them? yes, I believe so.
As far as benefits to the cheater, I'm sure he thinks I "owe him one", and
expects some sort of benefit in the future.
"DaveM" <Da...@dmonaghan.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:5m9l5vora9kmmthsm...@4ax.com...
OleMissGolf
>irrelevant.
I would then wonder about the likelihood of him cheating, angle shooting,
colluding, etc.. But he didn't. So I wouldn't wonder about him doing other
things. Therefore, it would be relevant to me.
Ron
A simple rule in every poker room.
And one rule every high-limit player knows and understands. That's why he
kicked me under the table instead of telling me or the table verbally.
"James L. Hankins" <jhankins5@[NO SPAM]sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:Cfy6a.864$LA.426...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
Ron
hoping to relate to him at his level...
"OleMissGolf" <olemi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030224184451...@mb-ca.aol.com...
Gary Carson
>One player per hand sir.
>
>A simple rule in every poker room.
>And one rule every high-limit player knows and understands.
Some of us 3/6 amatuars understand the rule also. It's the
responsibility of the player with a hand to not seek help or advice
from another. If the rule is violated then it's the player with the
hand who violated it. That would be you.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
OleMissGolf
So what is the punishment for knowing there is someone cheating at the table,
and not informing the rest of the players?
>As far as benefits to the cheater, I'm sure he thinks I "owe him one", and
>expects some sort of benefit in the future.
I bet you're in the minority with this opinion.
Paul Phillips
>As far as benefits to the cheater, I'm sure he thinks I "owe him one"
I'm sure a quick tour of rgp will disabuse him of that notion.
You've made it pretty clear you view his actions as bad, really bad.
In that case why don't you tell us his name, eh? You can't possibly think
it's right to aid and abet these dangerous criminals by contributing to
the conspiracy of silence.
I'm serious, there's no question you must identify him if you want to
approach moral consistency. Even if you think the many fellow cheaters
such as myself who have participated in this thread don't deserve the
information, think of the thousands of potentially unwary lurkers.
As long as you are so willing to call into question the motives of your
detractors, allow me to do the same: did you like this person before the
kicking incident? Would you have reacted in precisely the same way to
anyone who did the same thing regardless of your personal relationship?
--
Paul Phillips | A number you have to memorize - 7
Analgesic | -- heard on Family Feud
Empiricist |
all hip pupils! |----------* http://www.improving.org/paulp/ *----------
Ron
just print this info out and take it to the top-section floormen in LA, they
know me....
"Gary Carson" <garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:3e5aae47...@news.mindspring.com...
DaVoice
A. Prock
Ron
your hands directly in your line of sight in front of you.
"James L. Hankins" <jhankins5@[NO SPAM]sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:1ky6a.865$nS.427...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
RMITCHCOLL
>just not big ones?
Ron, Thanks for the thought provoking post. I am just a low limit player who
doesnt think cheating is ok. Apparently neither do you. Since you thought this
was cheating, did you report the offending player to the Floorman? If not, why?
Did you tell the other players at the table that the guy next to you was
cheating? If not, why? You say you know the other people at the table from your
other trips. If you decided after the fact that it was cheating, did you try
and find the other players and tell them to be aware of the cheater who sat
next to you? If not, why?
I am not trying to be a smart ass. I would seriously like to know the answers.
Thanks
Randy Collack
DaveM
>glad to find another person who thinks cheating is ok, as long as its a
>misdemeanor.
>are misdemeanors punishable in america? yes, I believe so.
>is there a public record of them? yes, I believe so.
From www.dictionary.com (Note): "In common usage, the word crime is
employed to denote the offenses of a deeper and more atrocious dye, while
small faults and omissions of less consequence are comprised under the
gentler name of misdemeanors. --Blackstone"
>As far as benefits to the cheater, I'm sure he thinks I "owe him one", and
>expects some sort of benefit in the future.
I think you "owe me one" for showing you the common english usage of
misdemeanor. Doesn't make me a cheat, though.
DaveM
Ron
kicked me 3-4 more times to get my attention. this is way to blatant to be
described as anything other than what I have described.
cheating cheating cheating cheating
"James L. Hankins" <jhankins5@[NO SPAM]sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:5ry6a.867$xd1.42...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
Asha34
announced anything, would you consider it cheating for the player to your right
to tell the dealer that you had a Straight? Why was it necessary for him to
kick you under the table when an overt sentence like "You have a Straight"
would have accomplished the same thing?
Ashley Adams
>I guess you don't mind people cheating either.
>
>maybe you $3-$6 players dont realize this was a $5000 + pot.
>
>does that make a difference?
>
>
>"MB" <MBI...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>news:0Qw6a.1517$475.17...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
>> Ron:
>>
>> Sorry --- but while I don't think it is okay, my response is still YAWN
>>
>> Mel
>> Ron <poke...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
>> news:E5w6a.245002$HN5.1...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
>> > So you think kicking people under the table is ok?
>> >
>> > do you do this also?
>> >
>> > maybe I should just take a poll of how many people kick one another
>under
>> > the table in a poker game. if its 30% or more, I'll just shut up about
>> the
>> > issue...
>> >
>> >
>> > "Gary Carson" <garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
>> > news:3e5a8b58...@news.mindspring.com...
>> > > On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 19:16:45 GMT, Paul Phillips <rg...@improving.org>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >You seem to think this would be a pat fleming level scandal if you
>> > > >"exposed" the person who kicked you, but I can almost guarantee you
>> > > the
>> > > >general response will be "yawn."
>> > >
>> > > Yawn is pretty much my response.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Gary Carson
>> > > http://www.garycarson.com
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
DaVoice
enforcement officer that attempted to arrest the guy for "cheating" he would
have the case thrown completely out of court on it's ear. What you did
would be blatant entrapment. All he would have to say is, "the guy showed
me his hand, I normally wouldn't have said anything, I was induced".
First mistake, slowrolling. That makes YOU the jerk, instead of leaving
things the way they were and the other guy playing that role. Ever hear
"two wrongs don't make a right?" or "Three rights make a left?"
Second mistake, exposing your cards. I'm assuming you're a fairly good (or
at least rich) poker player to be playing at that level to begin with. Any
decent poker player knows you don't expose your hand.
Third mistake, posting it here. There was no "cheating" there was a guy who
was steamed (you) at another guy and wanted to "get back at him". Grow up.
Obviously the guy who was kicking you has some ethical challenges, but you
didn't have to slowroll or expose your cards.
JMHO
Rick "DaVoice" Charles
"Ron" <poke...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:R2y6a.252670$Ec4.2...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
> well thanks bob, I hope I never meet you in a dark alley. you sound
pretty
> mean.
> my girlfriend calls me an asshole, so I guess you can too.
>
> I'm not asking you if its ok to rat the guy out. I've simply brought the
> subject to this group of poker analyst superstars for a discussion on
> cheating in poker.
>
> Apparently cheating is ok, as long as it isnt real obvious and blatant...
>
>
>
> "Bad Bob" <bad...@blueflintcat.us> wrote in message
> news:va8l5vkb1fluvuo13...@4ax.com...
> > On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 21:11:26 GMT, "Ron" <poke...@mchsi.com> wrote:
> >
> > >So I'm an asshole huh? Do you know me sir?
> > >
> > >I guess you think it's ok for someone to kick another under the table
and
> > >cheat in this manner?
> > >
> > >The point of "snitching" on this person would be to alarm the rest of
the
> > >people who play poker with this individual to watch out for future acts
> of
> > >cheating. If he is capable of doing such an act when he has nothing to
> > >gain, what is he capable of doing when he does have something to gain?
> > >
> > >What is wrong with exposing a cheater? This wouldn't be two wrongs, it
> > >would be one wrong and one right.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > Well since you asked me...yeah, you are the ass hole.
> >
> > If you were so honest why didn't you tell the floorman about it?
> > Why are you here now asking if it is OK to rat the guy out?
> >
> > I'll tell you why, because the guy is well known and you figure you can
> > gain some notoriety at his expense.
> >
> > Yeah I'm sure of it...you are an ass hole!
> >
> > Bad Bob the Albino
> > "Cook him till he's blue, smother him in onions!"
> >
>
>
Asha34
spotted that your bill was too high and alerted you and the desk clerk to the
fact.
The pot SHOULD have been awarded to the higher hand, no?
Ashley Adams
>
>What if you were checking out of the hotel and they gave you a bill for
>$5500 instead of the $500 you owed. You would just say oh well and pay the
>$5500?
DaVoice
RC
"Ron" <poke...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:0Dy6a.253109$Ec4.2...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
Ron
I did not seek help or advice from this player. He violated the one player
per hand rule, not I, and is responsible to whoever gets cheated.
As far as I know I'm allowed to hold my cards in my hands in front of my
face and look at them. If someone else sees them I am not doing anything
wrong.
"Gary Carson" <garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:3e5ab6df...@news.mindspring.com...
T3680
hand as two pair when he actually had a boat. other players pointed out that he
had the winning hand and he took the pot.it wouldnt have mattered how many
times he got kicked under the table--his cards told the story.
jw_steve
"Doctor K" <Doc...@NOSPAMSUCKERSmightywebsmiths.com> wrote in message
news:v5l430j...@corp.supernews.com...
> One year, at Thanksgiving, my sister's fiance's parents came over to our
> house. When his father got an intense leg cramp in his calf, he kicked me
> repeatedly under the table. I thought he was trying to alert me that my
> sister was using up all of the gravy, so I 86ed him from our dining room.
>
Well, this is one of those "it depends" situations. I would have either
come over the top with the peas and carrots or slowrolled him with
the biscuits.
jw steve
DaVoice
tabled his cards they would speak loud and clear. I'm done with this
thread, the entire situation could have been avoided if "Our Hero" didn't
slow roll... PERIOD
RC
"T3680" <t3...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030224194512...@mb-fb.aol.com...
Gary Carson
That's if you table your cards.
This guy didn't table them. He showed them to the guy next to him,
asking for advice about what to do.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
Pete
1. It's amazing that there is a cheating thread going on and Russ has
not chimed in yet on his take.
2. It seems to me, if you really wanted to punish the guy that bet into
you, you would have raised him once. This would have accomplished the
following, assuming he calls:
a. you could have said something like "I missed", and throw your hand
into the middle, FACE UP, making sure it doesn't hit the muck.
b. this would have caused your opponent a momentary reason to hope he
won the pot, until he realizes he has lost;
c. if you say it with a slight smirk, then the needle effect is much
more pervasive, and would have really driven home your contempt for the
guy to the whole table; and
d. not to mention that you pick up an extra bet to boot.
Linda Sherman
> I now wonder how many times this person has kicked people before?
Maybe he was just tired of your holding up the whole game so you can
have your little self-indulgent moment of petty revenge.
Lin
OleMissGolf
>asking for advice about what to do.
>
>
lol
Ron
the following incident occurred:
In a heads-up pot, one player bet on the river, the other player called.
The bettor turned his hand face-up on the table and announced what he had.
The caller studied his hand for a few seconds (in the air in front of his
face) and began to discard his hand face down when a person standing behind
him who was not in the game nudged him noticeably in the shoulder and back.
The player immediately opened his hand face-up on the table until he figured
out that he had the best hand.
Most everyone at the table saw what had happened. The other player was
infuriated. The floorperson was called. The camera was looked at for
verification of what had happened. The person with the "best" hand was
awarded the pot. The person who nudged this player in the back was barred
from the Bellagio until he paid the person who lost the pot the amount of
the pot. This was approximately $8000.
The person who was caught cheating was the nudger, not the player. The
player didnt do anything wrong. The person who committed this crime paid a
price, but a fair one.
What's the difference between the nudger and the kicker in my situation?
Nothing, other than this criminal wasnt exposed because the other players
and the camera didnt catch it.
"Ron" <poke...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:sSt6a.246923$vm2.190655@rwcrnsc54...
> Hello all. I would like to begin this post by identifying myself. My
name
> is Ron Moore, from Davenport, Iowa. Some of you may know me, most of you
do
> not. I play the higher limit mixed games at most of the major
tournaments.
>
> When in LA recently I had something happen to me which I decided I needed
to
> share with all of you.
>
> I was playing in a higher limit mixed game (defined as 200-400 or higher)
> and had a problem with a certain individual in the game who had been
> needling me excessively for the past day or so. I decided to retaliate.
> During a particular hand, I decided to "slow-roll" this individual at the
> end of the hand if the opportunity presented itself.
>
> Before I go on, lets please not make this an issue about slow-rolling. I
> know it's considered one of the cardinal sins of poker. I only use the
> "weapon" in circumstances that warrant it, and I believe I use good
judgment
> when I choose to do it. If I told all of you who was needling me, I would
> probably get a majority of positive responses for retaliating.
>
> Anyway, at the end of this particular hand, I was heads-up with the person
I
> wanted to retaliate against. On the river he bet into me (a value bet),
and
> I just smooth called with the second-nut straight. He proudly turned his
> hand up on the table and I continued to hold mine in the air staring at it
> for ten seconds or so, when suddenly the person next to me began kicking
me
> under the table. Very surprised at what was happening, I held the hand a
> few seconds longer, and the person next to me began kicking me again. I
> then placed my hand face-up on the table, and when the dealer began to
grab
> it, I grabbed it back and announced that I thought I had a straight. I
was
> then awarded the pot.
>
> Obviously, the person sitting next to me thought I overlooked what I had
and
> was trying to "help" me out with my hand. He had no idea what intentions
> were, I must have been "acting" pretty well.
>
> Since this occurred, I have spent countless moments thinking about the
> repercussions of what had happened. While I clearly did not gain anything
> by what this individual did, it was clearly his intention to "screw" the
> other guy out of the pot if I had actually overlooked my hand.
>
> I now wonder how many times this person has kicked people before? If he
> cheats this way, how many other ways does he cheat? He is a successful
> professional player, is he successful because he cheats? How many of his
> friends are cheating with him? How many other people are cheating out
> there?
>
> The person I caught cheating is very well known. Nearly 100% of you would
> know who I was identifying. Should I expose him? Would it do any good?
It
> would probably end up being my word against his, and how could I prove it?
> Cameras don't catch kicking under the table do they?
>
> What do I have to gain by telling all of you about my slow-rolling
tactics?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Andrei
> You are incorrect sir.
>
> I did not seek help or advice from this player. He violated the one player
> per hand rule, not I, and is responsible to whoever gets cheated.
>
> As far as I know I'm allowed to hold my cards in my hands in front of my
> face and look at them. If someone else sees them I am not doing anything
> wrong.
I'm still amazed to this day how many people think this sort of behavior
is ok to do at a poker game. No.. wait... I'm not.
FWIW, Ron... I'm in agreement with you here. I find the behavior
inexcusable.
To those who say "yawn" to this issue, I say "sigh."
Andrei
_________________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com
Ron
betting and 100% sure he wouldn't call a raise, so the opportunity seemed
perfect.
"Pete" <m...@here.net> wrote in message
news:v5lg729...@corp.supernews.com...
Andrei
> which you violated by exposing your hand to your neighbor... NEXT!
Sounds to me like he held his cards in front of him, not intending to show
them to his neighbor for advice. They happened to be far enough in front
of him as he was doing his Hollywood bit so the Kicker could see, but he
wasn't intentionally showing them to the Kicker.
Even if the Kicker sees the cards.
The question is simple: Is the Kicker allows to say verbally, "You have a
straight!" to Ron if Ron simply holds his cards up to examine them after
all the action is done.
No?
Then guess what, the Kicker shoudn't obviously attempt to DO the same
thing non-verbally. Are people thick or what?