no-limit starting hands
smch...@yahoo.com
read harrington and it strikes me he's very tight.
was wondering....
in no-limit,
1) play tighter than average limit game??? at least for the starting
half of the tournament i.e wait to bust a huge hand and have to have
good idea where you stand in no-limit and marginal starting hands (like
A8) give you no comfort. in limit, you can worst case call it down.
can't do it in no-limit.
2) much greater disparity between early position and late position??? i
absolutely hate putting in call and then getting 5X raise further down.
just wasting chips. you want hand where good chance you'll call the 5X
raise so premium hands.
these are my hunches but haven't seen much about it. basically, worst
case can call down hands in limit. worst case in no-limit = death.
thanks in advance.
ragscollector
best rule of thumbs i have are
1) if its good enough to call with you should be raising
2) The gap concept- You need a better hand to call a raise with than to raise
with
none of these are original thoughts obviously they are from P. Gordon and
Sklansky, respectively.
harrington is very tight but hes very tight aggressive = danger in my book.
Keep in mind that is tourney play aswell
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David Nicoson
smchan...@yahoo.com wrote:
> haven't seen too much talk about no-limit starting hands.
>
> read harrington and it strikes me he's very tight.
>
> was wondering....
>
> in no-limit,
>
> 1) play tighter than average limit game???
I wouldn't say that. If you mean, play tighter than the average person
plays limit, then I say yes. But not necessarily tighter than you
should play in a limit game.
> at least for the starting
> half of the tournament i.e wait to bust a huge hand and have to have
> good idea where you stand in no-limit and marginal starting hands (like
> A8) give you no comfort. in limit, you can worst case call it down.
> can't do it in no-limit.
I think there are some appropriate differences in hand selection for
no-limit, but mostly you just seeing the same effects only more
quickly. A8 doesn't make much money in limit, either. That said,
medium pairs in no-limit can be good gambles in deep no-limit games
when they are not in many limit. AJ and AT can be a lot of trouble.
> 2) much greater disparity between early position and late position??? i
> absolutely hate putting in call and then getting 5X raise further down.
> just wasting chips. you want hand where good chance you'll call the 5X
> raise so premium hands.
Playing hands early that can stand a raise in limit is probably a good
ideas as well, but the effects are more subtle. Are you playing 67s
under the gun in your limit games?
Disclaimer: I'm a shitty limit player.
smch...@yahoo.com
thanks for responses... here are some further thoughts, partly in
response to your comments.
i do think you have to play no-limit tighter than limit. comparing your
own play to itself (forget about comparing to loose idiots).... chips
are so precious in no-limit, death can be so sudden and players can
raise you 5X (vs. 2X in limit, although you can get multiple
raisers)... so you have hands that can stand some heat, but no-limit
brings instant heat.
i think my problems with no limit are:
1) if you haven't seen good cards in awhile, ATo and KJo start looking
good form early position.. can't remember harrington, but i think he
doesn't like these much.
2) i don't play position well, using it to my advantage... wondering
though which is more important - using position positively or NOT being
victimized by others in position... ties into point 3.
3) loved harrington's book but my thought was very, very high end.
seems the lower $$$$$ tournaments (100 players times $5) is pretty much
a lottery where you want a somewhat better chance than average
player....
i know in limit that playing worse players is high EV, but higher
variability...
DVDA
First of all you are talking about tournaments it seems only. On that note
there are some major differences. I say that you can actually play about the
same number of hands but they vary much more. In NL you can take any two cards
and blow people off of pots, using your position. You cant really do that in
limit because as you say they can just call another bet. However, hands like
AJ or AT become danger hands and are much less playable from upfront in NL.
I will actually probably play more hands in NL if I think that I can push people
off of flops or if I see them as weak. Where weak players online tend to call
because they dont know better, live weak players tend to fold because they are
constantly afraid of looking like a newbie or going out before they have been in
the tournament long enough.
I am of the belief that most tournaments, especially online that are less than
$300 are a crapshoot due to the structure and greatly varying abilities. Not
that the better players dont win them, just that moves and things that
Harrington talks about wont work alot of the times because the players just
arent smart enough and the stacks arent deep enough in relation to the blinds.
So many otherwise good players are so afraid of getting drawn out on that online
play becomes an all-in fest at which time its just good to know about relative
hand values.
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ragscollector
in regards to your points:
1) i am very tight aggressive, if i have the big stacks i play pot odds but
mostly i build throught tight aggression. In regards to the KT AT statement.
they are ATM hands, if you dont hit the boat or straight its going to cost you
some money. Sometimes you just have to be patient in ring games. friday nite i
bought in to a ring game for 150 and played 3 hands and doubled up twice...then
went broke when my AK ran into a overly aggressive players suck out.
2) the answer is 6 of one half dozen of another. Both are important but playin
hands like KJ from early position is trouble, u cant call a reraise with it. i
will play hands not normally played from LP if no one has opened the pot. My
golden rule is i would rather be raising than calling
3) harringtons book applies to all tourneys, its up to you to play ur gme and
not let the fish change it
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MysteriAce
> david and rags,
>
> thanks for responses... here are some further thoughts, partly in
> response to your comments.
>
> i do think you have to play no-limit tighter than limit. comparing your
> own play to itself (forget about comparing to loose idiots).... chips
> are so precious in no-limit, death can be so sudden and players can
> raise you 5X (vs. 2X in limit, although you can get multiple
> raisers)... so you have hands that can stand some heat, but no-limit
> brings instant heat.
I play a lot of lower-buyin games like you describe. Maybe I can help a
little.
> i think my problems with no limit are:
>
> 1) if you haven't seen good cards in awhile, ATo and KJo start looking
> good form early position.. can't remember harrington, but i think he
> doesn't like these much.
You must maintain focus at all times. In lower buyin tournaments
especially, you are not in such a predicament with a smaller stack than
you are in a larger buyin event where, presumably, the level of skill is
much greater. In bigger buy in games, you pretty much have to start
looking for places to push when you get down to the 12xBB mark. In these
small buiyin games it is not uncommon at all for me to get smacked down to
8xBB, wait a round or two, and make a comeback from 5xBB and win the whole
thing.
Patience is easily the best virtue in these games. Be patient. Your hand
will or will not come if you wait. But it WON'T come if you bust out due
to impatience. Fold from EP when you get marginally good all-in hands,
and jam with them when you get them around back.
> 2) i don't play position well, using it to my advantage... wondering
> though which is more important - using position positively or NOT being
> victimized by others in position... ties into point 3.
In lower buy in games, you are not as apt to run into someone punishing
you from downstream. So my answer is that playing position YOURSELF is of
more importance than not being victimized by others.
A lot of people say you can't bluff in low buy in games. Or that it is
inadvisable. You can't bluff a bad player, right? It's total bullshit.
You can "bluff" with position, you just have to choose your spots.
Position aids you there when everyone checks the flop to you, and nobody
in the pot is really tricky (just a bunch of straight-forward players).
There you can "bluff" with reasonable success, although most of the time
you are betting the best hand -- the key is using position to know when
nobody has ANYTHING. Those pots are up for grabs for whomever is at the
end of the chain.
Practice betting whenever everyone checks to you (so long as we're not
talking about 4+ people in the "everyone" category). You'll get trapped
every so often, but learning when to spot those situations and how to quit
your hand when you get played back at will allow you to make up for those
times in volume. After you get comfortable with that, try to apply that
reasoning to determine which uncontested pots to bet at, and which to
leave alone.
I will often trail in on the button behind a couple of limpers just to bet
at the pot if it is not bet at after the flop. I win a lot of those pots,
too.
Sometimes I also will raise a sole limper with anything from the button
(by anything I mean don't look at your cards). Often the blinds will fold
out, and the limper will check and fold on the flop when it doesn't help
them. Again, you'll get trapped every so often, but you make up for those
traps with the pots you win in between. The key to success, again, is
recognizing when to back off the pot after you've taken a stab at it.
Position play can win you a lot of chips that are key to survival into the
later stages.
> 3) loved harrington's book but my thought was very, very high end.
> seems the lower $$$$$ tournaments (100 players times $5) is pretty much
> a lottery where you want a somewhat better chance than average
> player....
Let me tell you that the "lottery" concept is hardly applicable. I play a
lot of tournaments in the $5-$30 range that range from 60-250 people, I
make a lot of final tables, and I have won a lot of them, too. At the low
limits like these, you are at more of an advantage being patient,
selectively aggressive, and focused than many people would think. Even
the final tables are often clotted with weak players who have lucked out
to get there, and have never been to a final table, and have no clue how
to win. A patient, skillful player should make a lot of those final table
appearances, regardless of the "Crap Factor".
Be patient. In these games, people will go out of their way to give you
their chips. Let them. But don't rush it.
> i know in limit that playing worse players is high EV, but higher
> variability...
~ MysteriAce
"Pop music is hard work!"
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smch...@yahoo.com
it is frustrating... when i first started playing tournaments and SNG's
after playing quite a few limit hands, i did very well.... and know i
haven't been doing that well. although i get near the $$$$ in fairly
large tournaments (near top 10 out of 80, or near top 30 of 200 for
example).
as someone said, i think i'm going to have to take advantage of
position, although more on the flop..... but seems like you get a fair
number of callers in most tournaments i'm in. i have been playing the
really low stakes tables and it does seem like an "all-in fest".
end of the day, this is what i think (and it involves a further
question):
1) luck factor is huge in short-to medium term... but over time, should
have a nice distribution of finishes
2) card luck recently has been bad. haven't seen AA in 1000's of hands.
but got beaten by it 4 times in an hour at a limit table. don't get me
wrong, i've got AA twice in 10 hands before.
3) i have to think about taking advantage of position more in my
play... and i do think i need to raise more with good hands and
position....
4) it seems you get to the point where you really have to start reading
your opponents. math is great in limit, but no-limit seems very
psychological. definitely see people double up or better and then get
aggressive with a good stack.