Stratification of poker players

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Abdul Jalib

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Feb 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/22/00
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This is a tour of the layers of poker society...

$300-$600+ Here the sharks are world class players, and the fish are
whales like literally Persian princes or American billionaires.
Sometimes $100-$200 pros follow whales into the game but they
are shark bait. These games are almost always short-handed
unless there is a whale, in which case professionals and their
mothers may be flying into town to get onto a long waiting list.
I've never played this high, so my knowledge is a bit lacking.
This limit is home to the brother-sister duo of Howard Lederer
and Annie Duke.

$100-$200 This is the domain of the tournament pros and the idle rich.
Someone said that the more world series bracelets in the game,
the better the game, and that's generally (but not quite always)
true. They all golf by day and gamble heavily on it. Usually
these games are short-handed. The real ring game professionals
at this limit are extremely tough, e.g., Lenny Martin.

$60-$120 Largely the same culture as $100-$200, but a $300-$600 pro
will sometimes demean himself by playing $100-$200, while you
almost never see them in a $60-$120, whereas $30-$60 pros will
often jump into a live $60-$120 but not a $100-$200. Overall,
the average $60-$120 pro is a weaker player than the
grinders down in $30-$60. Tells in $60-$120 are usually
reverse tells. For example, in hold'em if a $60-$120 player
checks his hole cards when a third of the suit hits, then he
already has the flush most of the time. The fish at this
limit sometimes have no idea how to play poker and will blow
off a few thousand in an hour.

$30-$60 Here live the grinders that play day in and day out, 8+ hours
per day. $30-$60 is the high water mark for most professionals,
and it's not uncommon for a game to be all professionals,
in which case you have to wonder about their sanity. It's
also possible to have a game with only one or two pros in it,
which just doesn't happen at higher limits. One thing that
is striking about this limit is how darned aggressive it is
compared to lower limits, though $60-$120 cranks it up to an
even higher pitch. This is the last limit that S&M's Hold'em
for Advanced Players is of much use. A lot of these players
are extremely good, such as Roy Cooke.

$15-$30 Here you'll find the common recreational gamblers, the
weak/learning pros, and the Abduls who bounce between $15-$30
and $60-$120 since those games are usually better than than
the $30-$60. In Vegas, these games are very weak-tight, and
the players fold much too often, while in L.A. these
games are very loose rammin' jammin' games.

$10-$20 This is the land of starving professionals and some truly
horrendous fish. If you thought $15-$30 was weak-tight,
that's nothing compared to $10-$20. The game is normally
passive, in addition to weak-tight, and it's is the first limit
for which S&M's Hold'em for Advanced Players is geared.
Both $10-$20 and $15-$30 allow truly stunning win rates for
top notch players, in excess of two big bets per hour, since
a top notch player can identify when his weak opponent has
no hand in a pot that is heads up from the flop. $3-$6,
$10-$20, and $60-$120 are the most common limits to
encounter someone who has never played poker before.

$6-$12 Land of gamb000ling fish. The contrast with $10-$20 is
incredible. You'll need about as big a bankroll for
$6-$12 as $10-$20, because the $6-$12 games are so much
wilder and also the rake/time takes a much bigger toll.

$3-$6 Basement. Braindead beginner fish live here, making
for no fold'em poker. No bluffing is allowed. The
rake or time charge will make the game somewhere between
difficult and impossible to beat. Although you'll sometimes
see a starving professional in $6-$12, there are no pros
down here, unless you want to count retirees who play to
supplement their social security checks.

--
Abdul

Michael Sullivan

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Feb 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/22/00
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Thanks for the tour. Question: Where does 20-40 fit into your ecology?
Maybe you left it out because it's giving way to 15-30, but it seems to still
thrive in the South (Tunica, at least). Another question: Is the 10-20 in SF
Bay Area comparable to that of LA?

Bob Dainauski

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Feb 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/22/00
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Interesting post!

I'm wondering if it's possible, and if you would, give illustrations
for each level. For example, at the 60-120 level you descibe a
typical reverse tell. If you would/could I'd love to hear a concrete
difference between each of the layers. What does a 300-600 player do
better than a 100-200, etc.

Thanks,

Bob

Bob Dainauski
Allentown, PA
rob...@fast.net

Bob Dainauski

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Feb 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/22/00
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While you're at it, for no reason other than curiosity I'll ask at
what limits do you regularly find the big name players, tourney
players, writers, and even plain old RGPers who have been known to
play big (or at least in the big one). Examples:

Doyle
Huck Seed
Amarillo Slim
Chip Reese
Pug Pearson
Bonetti
Daniel Negraneu
Phil Hellmuth
Men Nguyen
Scotty Nguyen
Roy Cooke
S&M
Mike Caro
Johnny Chan
OK Johnny

and any other well known names...


Thanks,
Bob D.


Abdul Jalib

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Feb 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/22/00
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Michael Sullivan <mv...@cstone.net> writes:

> Thanks for the tour. Question: Where does 20-40 fit into your ecology?
> Maybe you left it out because it's giving way to 15-30, but it seems to still
> thrive in the South (Tunica, at least).

$20-$40 is almost identical to $15-$30, but $20-$40 often retains a vestige
of the loose-wildness of $6-$12 - the extra chips (4-8 structure compared
to 3-6 structure) increase the looseness of the game, even though that
does not make logical sense. $20-$40 is not longer an important part of
the Las Vegas poker ecology, but it's huge in LA. In LA, the $15-$30's
and $20-$40's are both loose, but the $20-$40 players are trickier.

> Another question: Is the 10-20 in SF Bay Area comparable to that of LA?

It has been ages since I've played the 10-20 in the SF Bay Area. I did
play the 15-30 at Bay 101 on a trip a year and a half ago, and then I was
horrified by how tight-aggressive/professional-infested it was, but I'm
told I just got them on a bad night, as Lucky Chances had just opened.
I imagine that like LA, the SF 10-20 is going to be fairly loose-passive.
You might see a few more starving professionals at that limit in the
Bay Area, because the time charge is less. You'll see many more
starving professionals at that limit in Vegas, because the cost of living
is much less and there is a rake plus a steady stream of dumb tourists.

--
Abdul

gene...@my-deja.com

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Feb 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/22/00
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Excellent post Abdul,

Although I am by no means a top notch player the last few months I have
played 10-20 holdem exclusively (9-18 actually) because I find this
level to be incredibly profitable for the reasons that you give.

For those considering moving up to this level I strongly recommend
digesting S&M's Hold'em for Advanced Players as it has been my
experience that this book is perfectly suited for this limit of poker.

Best,
John


> $10-$20 This is the land of starving professionals and some truly
> horrendous fish. If you thought $15-$30 was weak-tight,
> that's nothing compared to $10-$20. The game is normally
> passive, in addition to weak-tight, and it's is the first limit
> for which S&M's Hold'em for Advanced Players is geared.
> Both $10-$20 and $15-$30 allow truly stunning win rates for
> top notch players, in excess of two big bets per hour, since
> a top notch player can identify when his weak opponent has
> no hand in a pot that is heads up from the flop. $3-$6,
> $10-$20, and $60-$120 are the most common limits to
> encounter someone who has never played poker before.

--
Tentanda Via


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Abdul Jalib

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Feb 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/22/00
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rob...@fast.net (Bob Dainauski) writes:

> I'm wondering if it's possible, and if you would, give illustrations
> for each level. For example, at the 60-120 level you descibe a
> typical reverse tell. If you would/could I'd love to hear a concrete
> difference between each of the layers. What does a 300-600 player do
> better than a 100-200, etc.

$300-$600: Players here have an angle that allows them to rise above the
rest. Some have a deep understanding of game theory, some have
many decades of experience, and some (I'm sorry) cheat.

$100-$200: Maniacs are largely replaced by very tough players. Intuitive
exploitive play gets replaced by defensive game-theoretic play,
even if the players don't realize that's how they're playing.

$60-$120: Reverse tells, many seemingly successful maniacs, 3-betting
3-way with middle pair and overcard becomes sometimes correct,
3 or 4 bet semi-bluffs occur, bluff raises on river are the rule,
play by feel and play by tells, no play by book. Good players
still go on tilt at this limit, and that's how other good players
make most of their money.

$30-$60: Semi-bluff-raise-on-the-turn city. Players get into stare-downs
when the flop comes down (trying to get tells), until the first
player gives up and looks at the board.

$20-$40: Rammin-jammin value betting/raising with big draws. They make
some good laydowns when faced with calling two cold in a big
multiway pot. It is a rule here that AA must always be turned
face up when it is mucked prior to the showdown. If AA loses
in a showdown, then a 60 second wake ceremony is required
before then showing the hand and then tossing it into the muck,
ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

$15-$30: Players are good at hand selection, but weak at semi-bluffing,
first level where you'll see many bluff raises on the river.
Many players here play by the book. They love to make "good"
laydowns.

$10-$20: Good players here are rocks and rarely semi-bluff or bluff.
They *live* to make "good" laydowns.

$6-$12: Good players here ram-n-jam with big draws, but lack common
sense. They are not able to determine when they might be
drawing dead. They hold onto AA until the bitter end.

$3-$6: Players here tend to call if there is any chance in hell that
they can make the runner-runner nut straight or two pair.

--
Abdul

A. Prock

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Feb 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/22/00
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According to Abdul Jalib <Abd...@PosEV.com>:

> $3-$6: Players here tend to call if there is any chance in hell that
> they can make the runner-runner nut straight or two pair.

I *know* you meant runner-runner two pair, 'cause that's what I
watch them do.

:)

- Andrew


Abdul Jalib

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Feb 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/22/00
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rob...@fast.net (Bob Dainauski) writes:

> While you're at it, for no reason other than curiosity I'll ask at
> what limits do you regularly find the big name players, tourney
> players, writers, and even plain old RGPers who have been known to
> play big (or at least in the big one). Examples:
>
> Doyle

$3000-$6000

> Huck Seed
$300-$600

> Chip Reese
$300-$600

> Daniel Negraneu
$100-$200 to $300-$600, I think, occasionally lower

> Phil Hellmuth
Used to play $60-$120/$80-160/$100-$200, now could be nearly
busted but I'm not sure.

> Men Nguyen
If I'm not mistaken I've seen him at everything from $40-$80 to
$300-$600, more the latter.

> Scotty Nguyen
$300-$600.

> Roy Cooke
$30-$60 *exclusively*.

> S&M
They are not one entity. Malmuth plays mostly $20-$40, while
Sklansky plays around $200-$400.

> Mike Caro
The last time I saw him he was playing $60-$120 but that was a long
time ago.

I don't know about:

> Amarillo Slim
> Pug Pearson
> Bonetti
> Johnny Chan
> OK Johnny

> and any other well known names...

Annie Duke: $300-$600 and up
Howard Lederer: $300-$600 and up
Barry Johnston: $60-$120ish
Eskimo: $30-$60ish but up and down
Jennifer Harmon: $75-$150 to $300-$600
Dee (Huck's girlfriend): $60-$120 and $100-$200
Toothpick Doug: $30-$60 and $60-$120
Lee Jones: $20-$40ish
Lou Krieger: $15-$30 to $30-$60
Mimi and Barry G.: used to play $60-$120 to $300-$600, MIA?

--
Abdul

Badger

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Feb 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/22/00
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Abdul Jalib <Abd...@PosEV.com> wrote...

> > Phil Hellmuth
> Used to play $60-$120/$80-160/$100-$200, now could be nearly
> busted but I'm not sure.

400-800 at the Commerce.

Kevin Kerstein

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Feb 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/23/00
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Abdul,

Is it safe to assume that the 8-16 Holdem game at the Bellagio is in line
with a 10-20 game - or is it closer to your thoughts on 6-12? Also, I
assume that you are talking mostly holdem here - do these insights also
apply to stud at their respective levels?

TripKings in MN

St.George

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Feb 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/23/00
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Abdul Jalib <Abd...@PosEV.com> wrote in message
news:yeru2j1...@shell9.ba.best.com...


<snip>


> $30-$60 Here live the grinders that play day in and day out, 8+ hours
> per day. $30-$60 is the high water mark for most
professionals,
> and it's not uncommon for a game to be all professionals,
> in which case you have to wonder about their sanity. It's
> also possible to have a game with only one or two pros in it,
> which just doesn't happen at higher limits. One thing that
> is striking about this limit is how darned aggressive it is
> compared to lower limits, though $60-$120 cranks it up to an

> even higher pitch. This is the last limit that S&M's Hold'em
> for Advanced Players is of much use.


Why is that, Abdul?

What is it about the S&M strategies that makes them fail at higher levels?


Mark

St.George

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Feb 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/23/00
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Abdul Jalib <Abd...@PosEV.com> wrote in message
news:yer900c...@shell9.ba.best.com...

> rob...@fast.net (Bob Dainauski) writes:
>
> > I'm wondering if it's possible, and if you would, give illustrations
> > for each level. For example, at the 60-120 level you descibe a
> > typical reverse tell. If you would/could I'd love to hear a concrete
> > difference between each of the layers. What does a 300-600 player do
> > better than a 100-200, etc.
>
> $300-$600: Players here have an angle that allows them to rise above the
> rest. Some have a deep understanding of game theory, some have
> many decades of experience, and some (I'm sorry) cheat.


Really? Are these examples of collusion, or something else?

St.George

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Feb 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/23/00
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<gene...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:88v36u$m5t$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

> Excellent post Abdul,
>
> Although I am by no means a top notch player the last few months I have
> played 10-20 holdem exclusively (9-18 actually) because I find this
> level to be incredibly profitable for the reasons that you give.


At the Commerce, perchance?

It is an interesting distinction, as the Commerce spreads both $9-$18 AND
$10-$20 (or did at least till recently), and the games are *totally*
different in character; the former being classic California ram-and-jam,
especially with draws and regular pre-flop, family pot caps; whereas the
latter seems to be standard mid-limit rockface.

A. Prock

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Feb 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/23/00
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According to St.George <st_george99@***hotmail.com>:

>Really? Are these examples of collusion, or something else?

Two common techniques used by cheats in cardrooms:

*) marking cards
*) palming cards

- Andrew

gene...@my-deja.com

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Feb 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/23/00
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No, at Oceans 11, located about 30 min north of San Diego.

In article <88vng9$5nv$1...@lure.pipex.net>,

--

hippiechuckI

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Feb 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/23/00
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Just stay out of my game John!!!
Chuck


In article <88v36u$m5t$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,


gene...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Excellent post Abdul,
>
> Although I am by no means a top notch player the last few months I
have
> played 10-20 holdem exclusively (9-18 actually) because I find this
> level to be incredibly profitable for the reasons that you give.
>

> For those considering moving up to this level I strongly recommend
> digesting S&M's Hold'em for Advanced Players as it has been my
> experience that this book is perfectly suited for this limit of poker.
>
> Best,
> John
>
> > $10-$20 This is the land of starving professionals and some truly
> > horrendous fish. If you thought $15-$30 was weak-tight,
> > that's nothing compared to $10-$20. The game is normally
> > passive, in addition to weak-tight, and it's is the
first limit
> > for which S&M's Hold'em for Advanced Players is geared.
> > Both $10-$20 and $15-$30 allow truly stunning win rates
for
> > top notch players, in excess of two big bets per hour,
since
> > a top notch player can identify when his weak opponent
has
> > no hand in a pot that is heads up from the flop. $3-$6,
> > $10-$20, and $60-$120 are the most common limits to
> > encounter someone who has never played poker before.
>

> --
> Tentanda Via
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>

--
I contradict myself? very well then I contradict
myself. I am large. I contain multitudes.
from WALT WHITMANS Leaves of Grass.

Abdul Jalib

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Feb 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/23/00
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"Kevin Kerstein" <berk...@willmar.com> writes:

> Abdul,
>
> Is it safe to assume that the 8-16 Holdem game at the Bellagio is in line
> with a 10-20 game - or is it closer to your thoughts on 6-12?

Closer to 6-12. Not many pros in 8-16 in contrast to 10-20.

> Also, I
> assume that you are talking mostly holdem here - do these insights also
> apply to stud at their respective levels?

Perhaps a stud player who has played many levels would like to
respond...

--
Abdul

Abdul Jalib

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Feb 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/23/00
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"St.George" <st_george99@***hotmail.com> writes:

> Abdul Jalib <Abd...@PosEV.com> wrote in message

> news:yeru2j1...@shell9.ba.best.com...
>
> <snip>
>
> > $30-$60
> > ... This is the last limit that S&M's Hold'em


> > for Advanced Players is of much use.
>
>
> Why is that, Abdul?
>
> What is it about the S&M strategies that makes them fail at higher levels?

It's not that you throw away what you've learned... it's just that
you have to do more to outwit $60-$120 players than can be contained
in a book.

--
Abdul

Mike Caro

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Feb 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/23/00
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On 22 Feb 2000 15:12:49 -0800, Abdul Jalib <Abd...@PosEV.com> wrote:
>> Mike Caro
>The last time I saw him he was playing $60-$120 but that was a long
>time ago.

Mean = $121.43/$242.86
Mediam = $75/$150
Mode = $75/$150


Liveone

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Feb 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/23/00
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My stud experience is limited to 15-30 to 80-160. 20-40 is a better game then
15-30.
30-60 is tougher then 20-40, and 40-80 is tougher yet. 80-160 is a very loose
wild game. Players will chase all the way to the river. If you play real solid
and have the Bank roll 80-160 is the best. I cannot comment on games smaller
or bigger as I do not play in them.

Liveone

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Feb 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/23/00
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Relative to the game size you will have the biggest fluctuations in the 80-160
game as winning or losing 5-7 racks is common(10-14,000). The smallest
fluctuations in the 15-30 game and the 40-80 when it is played with a 5 dollar
ante. when the 40 -80 is played with a 10 dollar ante the fluctuations go up.
20 40 is a game with larger flucuations then the 30-60. And much of what Abdul
said about the holdem games apply to the stud at the same limits.

Bob Dainauski

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Feb 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/23/00
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Thanks for the reply, interesting stuff!

> >> Doyle
> >$3000-$6000

*Is this a typo*? If it's not, that is simply staggering. Grinding
out that 1BB per hour must not be so bad :-) Who does he play
*against*?

> >> Roy Cooke
> >$30-$60 *exclusively*.

Any idea why it's this level exclusively? I'm trying to think why
he'd bypass a juicy 20-40 game?

> >
> >> S&M
> >They are not one entity.

But how cool would it be if they *were*? :-)

> >Malmuth plays mostly $20-$40, while
> >Sklansky plays around $200-$400.

I found this surprising. I assumed they were peers in terms of
playing limits. Is S that much better than M?

M: I was a 17-12 favorite after the flop.
S: 17-12 1/2!
M: (smacks forehead) Doh!
S: You wacky little guy! That's why you only got a 1590 on your SAT!
(Gives M a noogie).

Also - in a separate post you mentioned cheating at the 300/600 level.
What sort of cheating is this, and since at least some people are
aware of it, why is it allowed to continue?

Thanks again, this is fascinating stuff,
- bd


Gary Carson

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Feb 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/23/00
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>> >Malmuth plays mostly $20-$40, while
>> >Sklansky plays around $200-$400.
>
>I found this surprising. I assumed they were peers in terms of
>playing limits. Is S that much better than M?

Yes, although the limits they play at have nothing to do with that.

Gary Carson

Abdul Jalib

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Feb 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/23/00
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rob...@fast.net (Bob Dainauski) writes:

> Thanks for the reply, interesting stuff!
>
> > >> Doyle
> > >$3000-$6000
>
> *Is this a typo*? If it's not, that is simply staggering. Grinding
> out that 1BB per hour must not be so bad :-) Who does he play
> *against*?

Not a typo. Not sure who he plays against. Bill Gates plays $3-$6.



> > >> Roy Cooke
> > >$30-$60 *exclusively*.
>
> Any idea why it's this level exclusively?

I believe Roy is trying to maximize his chance of winning but
not the amount of money he wins. He has had almost no losing
months in his career, and wants to keep it that way, I think.

He may also feel the same way about $30-$60 that I do about
$15-$30. IMNSHO, I'm much more skilled than $15-$30 caliber players,
so I can torture the good $15-$30 players, never mind the fish.
I've almost never met a $15-$30 game I didn't like, even usually
when it's all pros. There are a few very good $15-$30 pros,
so if you're reading this and you think you're one of them, I'm
not referring to you, honest.

> I'm trying to think why he'd bypass a juicy 20-40 game?

Too much exercise to walk all the way from Mirage to Bellagio.
He used to play the 20-40 almost exlusively pre-Bellagio, except
towards the end he was playing quite a bit of 40-80. Roy
sometimes steps up to 60-120, but rarely if ever down to 15-30.



> > >> S&M
> > >They are not one entity.
>
> But how cool would it be if they *were*? :-)
>

> > >Malmuth plays mostly $20-$40, while
> > >Sklansky plays around $200-$400.
>
> I found this surprising. I assumed they were peers in terms of
> playing limits. Is S that much better than M?
>

> M: I was a 17-12 favorite after the flop.
> S: 17-12 1/2!
> M: (smacks forehead) Doh!
> S: You wacky little guy! That's why you only got a 1590 on your SAT!
> (Gives M a noogie).

Heh. Malmuth says it's because he puts every penny he has into
his publishing business and plays on a negative bankroll.



> Also - in a separate post you mentioned cheating at the 300/600 level.
> What sort of cheating is this, and since at least some people are
> aware of it, why is it allowed to continue?

It's rumored that there is a problem with the big games. Also,
in LA, there was bankroll-pooling team of three brothers who
generally played in the same 40-80 game. I caught one of them
receiving and acting on *blatant* visual signals from another guy
from the same country. I notified the shift manager and he refused
to even look at the video tape, since they were "good customers" (worth
perhaps $30,000 in gross revenue per year each.) Here was
probably the only time I would ever spot blatant cheating that would
leave indisputable evidence on video, and the shift manager decided
to look the other way! Now the brothers play 300-600.

Collusion when done well is nearly impossible to spot, and when it
is spotted casino management in LA generally looks the other way
since every customer is worth quite a bit of revenue to the casino
and hey, it's not their money that's being stolen.

--
Abdul

Iceman

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Feb 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/23/00
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In article <20000223121545...@ng-cu1.aol.com>,

As someone who's done his time in the smaller games, I'll comment
here.

1-3 Everyone calls the bring-in. Totally clueless players, people
chase to the river with anything, they don't pay attention to
boards. Rake brutal.

1-5 Normally a rockfest. A lot of people call the bring-in and
usually slowplay high pairs. 3-flushes are the key starting hand.
They make loose calls on fourth and fifth, but most don't chase
with total trash. Rake still painful.

5-10 Dominated by weak-tight players. A lot of callers for the
bring-in, and not much raising on third. People drop quickly on
fourth and fifth. Play is very predictable and people virtually
always have what they represent. Stealing on fourth and fifth can
be profitable for an aggressive player.

10-20 Here the play is moderately tight and slightly aggressive,
and begins to resemble "real stud". You get 15-30 players playing
down (who play aggressively on third and do try to knock people
out later in the hand) and 5-10 players playing up (who play too
many hands but play them weak-tight-passive). The play is still
fairly predictable here and solid play gets the money. Even for
the moderate ante many opponents don't steal enough, and
aggressive play does well here. A high profit, low variance game
for an expert player.

Iceman

"Why would anyone capable .. waste their time on 7stud?"
-Maverick


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greg_g...@my-deja.com

unread,
Feb 24, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/24/00
to
In article <20000223122206...@ng-cu1.aol.com>,

liv...@aol.com (Liveone) wrote:
> Relative to the game size you will have the biggest fluctuations in
the 80-160
> game as winning or losing 5-7 racks is common(10-14,000).

Now I don't feel so bad.

Still 0 for 6 racks in the 80/160 game.

Bjgkaraoke

unread,
Feb 24, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/24/00
to
>It is an interesting distinction, as the Commerce spreads both $9-$18 AND
>$10-$20 (or did at least till recently), and the games are *totally* (snipped)
I don't think the Commerce has spread a 10-20 HE game in the past several
months ; it died when the 9-18 was started. As far as I know, the only clubs
in LA that still spread 10-20 are the Normandie (very spotty) and Hollywood
Park, where the game is flourishing (thank goodness). Barbara

SquirrellyCurly

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Mar 18, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/18/00
to
>From: Abdul Jalib

> $30-$60: Semi-bluff-raise-on-the-turn city. Players get into stare-downs
> when the flop comes down (trying to get tells), until the first
> player gives up and looks at the board.
>

Unwittingly you have just described Roy Cooke to a T. I hate this about him.
He is always staring at you. How childish.

SquirrellyCurly

unread,
Mar 18, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/18/00
to
>From: Abdul Jalib

>Toothpick Doug: $30-$60 and $60-$120

If this is the same guy I'm thinking of; always up and down out of his seat;
never sits still; always changing games. Up-down-up-down-up-down. Another
totally annoying person to play with.

Izmet Fekali

unread,
Mar 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/26/00
to

But a very nice young man, witty and energetic. Stay away from
short handed games with him. Naah, stay away period, if you're not
sure what you're doing. Sklansky told me he rates Doug as top 20
in the world. Abdul gives him a B for preflop play (I saw him limp
utg on only one occassion and I folded my KQ or something in panic
immediatelly. Doug simply does not balance his play preflop.) and
an A postflop.

I played $30-60 with him full table at Bellagio for a week, and
have nothing but good things to say about him. But I agree with
the masterminds, Doug is one tough sunovabitch to play against.
I guess he really is annoying to play against as he is obviously
using some kind of electromagnetic field that attract
your chips in his direction.

--

Izmet Fekali
Burek Experts Ltd.
Catering the World since 1389!
Albania, Slovenia, Europe
http://www.fekali.com


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